Rdps and Mdps- balance idea

Greetings (yes, I decided to create a new thread, because I have some days of playing time)
I have an idea how to balance melee-DPS classes and range-DPS classes.
Mdps can attack only if close and Rdps can attack if close and if far away. Is it fair? The distance itself is already a great advantage. We know, that now Coil is a rather hard dungeon for Mdps classes. For example developers will design (already) new turns in other way with many boss's ranged-aoe attack. So what? Rdps classes can stay very close to bosses and continue to attack. When aoe passed- return to range position. It is not a solution, because Mdps classes can not continue to attack while avoiding close-ranged boss's aoe attacks. There is another way to balance- different skills of Rdps-classes must get DISTANCE restrictions for using. For example, if you stay 10-yalms or closer- you cant use skill. You like it? So, by designing different mobs and bosses with close-range AOE attacks and with far-range AOE attack we will get very good balance (great example is Chimera):
-if close-range AOE attack, Mdps run away, they cant attack, but Rdps can
-if far-range AOE attack, Mdps continue to attack, Rdps cant attack, because they need to stay close to boss to avoid attack
Im not talking about all range skills, but many of them must get such DISTANCE restriction and this will make Mdps classes much more popular in different raids to Coil or anywhere alse

Or another solution- the efficiency of range-skills will reduce greatly and get a great damage loss, if target 10yalms or closer

Thank you

This doesn't work in practice due to the nessecity to also play in solo play.

Longbow rangers in GW2 were widely considered inferior if not useless in serious and solo play for this reason, as their damage fell off with range; the closer the enemy the lower the DPS they dealt. However in solo play, once you attack a mob it's going to close to reasonably short range no matter how you kite and in boss fights it wasn't always possible to maintain a very large amount of clearance. Melee can ALWAYS close to an enemy, they may have to back off due to PBAoE but they can always reach a boss. Your proposition however can set up a scenario where ranged DPS has nowhere from which they can hit the enemy, rendering them useless.

Really the only problem child in the equation is bard.

Black mages and Summoner still have to kite AoE's, during which time they cannot attack - only bards can shoot-and-scoot. And there's a number of other solutions (A damage penalty while moving, or possibly increase bard's focus on support, so they proxy a larger portion of their DPS through songs rather than doing large dps themselves)

Just make mechanics that will only concern ranged classes.

I'm still amazed that Titan can put a Weight of the Land under melee's feet. Should've been a ranged-only mechanic.

Yes, solo-playing... But developers can add some skill to make a distance, if mob came too close. Or another solution- the efficiency of range-skills will reduce greatly and get a great damage loss, if target 10yalms or closer

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Just make mechanics that will only concern ranged classes.

I'm still amazed that Titan can put a Weight of the Land under melee's feet. Should've been a ranged-only mechanic.

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So groups would stack melee, and ranged wouldn't be able to get groups, that's how the community works.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

So groups would stack melee, and ranged wouldn't be able to get groups, that's how the community works.

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You would need to make a mix of mechanics that only affect melees and some that only affect ranged, rather than some affecting all and some only melees. Thats how other games handle it as well.

The funny thing is most people thought weight of the land would only affect ranged dps until they realized it only seemed that way because most groups stacked ranged dps like crazy.

Part of the idea behind this game was that every encounter could be beat regardless of party setup, as long as you have the standard tank, dps, heals thing going on, if they were going to have to make a mechanic for ranged, and a mechanic for melee, then why not just do what they did, and have the same mechanic affect both, it's just as easy to dodge weight as melee as it is ranged, the only time it can get troublesome is if everyone is loosely spread out so everyone runs into other people's plumes, and that is just poor playing, not poor mechanics. The fights are group fights, you need to be able to do your individual thing well, while working in a group, if someone messes up, and you get killed, then that is fine, teach them, or replace them. As for some mechanics affecting melee and not ranged, the only one I can think of right of is Ifrit, and Sear or Vulcan blast isn't going to get you killed, its more of a healer mechanic, to keep them busy, and vulcan blast is sort of bothersome for ranged, you have to stay back or you get interrupted, making you have to move more during plumes than melee.

Lets see, for example, Coil 1-2.
-----On snake Rdps need to worry only about poison shooting of the snake, but Mdps + this need to worry about tail hit and it is very dangerous because ping+server latency
------Coil 2 Rdps need to worry only about laser and other range attacks, but Mdps +this need to worry about round AOE. Many players know, that it is VERY hard to run out from this round AOE because ping+server latency. So, why not to make some boss balance and skill balance as I suggested to make Mdps classes more attractive?

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

then why not just do what they did, and have the same mechanic affect both

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Because its not possible. How would you make ranged dps be affected by close ranged AOEs and cleaves?

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Because its not possible. How would you make ranged dps be affected by close ranged AOEs and cleaves?

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Slipstream, it's a cleave, and it's ranged, if you are a melee dumb enough to be in front of Ifrit for his cleaves, that's about the same as a ranged being in front of Garuda when she slipstreams, the close range aoe's Ifrit they don't hit hard, that's more for healers, since melee can't avoid sear/vulcan burst, in coil repelling cannons on ADS is the only mandatory one, if your melee can't avoid the water aoe thing kill that node that uses it, and it takes it away from ADS. Caduceus, the tail attack is very avoidable, don't go behind the freaking snake, if you have to for combo, hit it and move, if you aren't paying attention, and the monk triggered it a second before you moved, that's you not paying attention, actually ranged have to worry more about the tail than melee because they are feeding the slimes, they should come in from the side, but positioning can make it tricky.

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

So, why not to make some boss balance and skill balance as I suggested to make Mdps classes more attractive?

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Every boss encounter has mechanics that either melee or ranged have to worry about, or both, on Chimera, melee doesn't care about voice of the dragon, ranged does, Hydra has a breath attack and a mid-range attack that cause the healing debuff, that's for tanks and ranged, melee doesn't care about those, right now bards are the hot ticket not because of the mobility, but because of the insane burst they have, all the offensive cooldowns, but if they reduce bard output, or increase melee's then you will see many more melee dps where you didn't before, if you are a melee dps that can't avoid things like repelling cannons, then leave it to the people that can, and sit back and spam your fire.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Every boss encounter has mechanics that either melee or ranged have to worry about, or both, on Chimera,

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Disagree about Chimera. Rdps need to worry about round AOEs and Dragon voice. But Mdps need to worry about (plus this round AOEs)- RAm voice and cone AOE attacks from different sides and they are rather hard-hit. Distance, as I told, already is a great advantage and Mdps always are in much more danger. Dont forget about ALWAYS rotation- behind, flanc. Rdps no need to think about such rotation. So, why not to make balance and make some range-restrictions?

Range restrictions don't work, because of solo play, PvP, plus it can restrict area design in the future, mechanics where you need to stack to split damage (fireball on Twintania), some fights have more danger to melee, some more to range, some like Titan, all the mechanics are for either tank, or everyone else, no descrimination between range or melee, so either there is some language barrier thing you and I aren't getting past, or you seem to want every fight to be exactly the same, or penalize ranged if melee has to dodge one or two more mechanics on the fight. If you can't handle the rotations, don't play melee, melee don't have to worry about procs, ranged do, ever think about that, thundercloud, firestater, bloodletter reset, straigher shot, that's like you combo's it is something you either pay attention to, or you loose out on dps.

Can you name fights, where Rdps are in greater dunger, than Mdps?

Yes, thats the main idea- Rdps can not be effective at all distances because Mdps cannot. Is it fair?

Yes, is it a distance balance- distance restrictions

Depends on the group, many groups Caduceus ranged is in more danger, melee just has to stand there and hit the snake, move when platform lights up, being in front or behind is a very avoidable danger, if you get hit by hoodswipe or the tail, that is you not being where you are supposed to be, ranged has to deal with slimes and poison. Hydra, melee stay at the sides, if you are hit by cleave or tail, again you being where you don't need to be, ranged has white wind, everyone has ice/fire circles, fear and wyverns. There aren't many fights where melee is in more danger though, all the primals melee and ranged deal with the same mechanics, if you say sear/vulcan burst are difficult for melee, you have bad healers, Chimera has the side attacks, but there is a small spot on the hind leg where you avoid tail and side attacks, bringing threats to even for ranged and melee. ADS would probably be the only fight I can think of where melee has more danger that can't be gotten around by positioning, but the fight is customizable, yes SE made it to where if you can't get past a certain mechanic, you can kill a mini boss and remove it from the main boss, except for repelling cannons, and if you can't avoid that, don't play melee. Also a big bonus to melee is the limit break, if you don't have a monk or dragoon, say goodbye to single target limit break.

You are telling all about possibilities of mistakes and so on. Also you name attacks, that can be against Mdps and Rdps as well. But can you name any attack of any boss (except Chimera), that makes Rdps in much more great danger, than Mdps?

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

You are telling all about possibilities of mistakes and so on. Also you name attacks, that can be against Mdps and Rdps as well. But can you name any attack of any boss (except Chimera), that makes Rdps in much more great danger, than Mdps?

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Hydra White Wind

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Hydra White Wind

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Hm... any more?

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I'm still amazed that Titan can put a Weight of the Land under melee's feet. Should've been a ranged-only mechanic.

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No, because that punishes ranged just for being ranged and for no other reason. You can't do this without also adding a new mechanic that only melee have to worry about.

And as stated before, putting a minimum ranged on casters and bards effectively renders solo play pretty much impossible so that's not an option.

BRD is the only OP range anyway, and its mostly because of the AoE IMO, it just needs to be toned down a bit.

They have the bosses pretty balanced so far when it comes to ranged/melee, it comes down to if you are where you aren't supposed to be, you are going to get hit, regardless of class, melee is closer to a few more of them, because they are closer to the boss, when Titan jumps ranged has to run further to stack, if you aren't paying attention, and move a second too late, you take more damage, it comes down to the player, if you want to be "safer" where you don't have positional requirements play a ranged class, rely more on RNG and hope you get your procs to keep your dps up, but ranged or melee either way, you have to pay attention or you die.

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Hm... any more?

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Please, name all the moves that melee has to worry about that ranged doesn't and all but maybe one or two, I can tell you how to avoid it, and if you can't then you can either claim it's your ping, or you can admit you just can't react fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Please, name all the moves that melee has to worry about that ranged doesn't and all but maybe one or two, I can tell you how to avoid it, and if you can't then you can either claim it's your ping, or you can admit you just can't react fast enough.

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As target for ANY boss's range AoE or single-range-attack can be chosen Mdps and Rdps- it is true and danger is equal for Mdps and Rdps. But close-round AoE attacks and cone attacks put Mdps in much more great danger. Even simple mobs have such attack. Is it fair? And what we see as a balance? Does Rdps much weaker-no, they are very good DD classes. They can attack from afar and in close range (Mdps only in close). Yes, they just have less defense, but most of all boss's attack are so strong to kill monk, dragoon or any Rdps class in 1-2 hit. It is not an advantage

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Slipstream, it's a cleave, and it's ranged

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Slipstream is neither a cleave nor is it a close range AOE. Its a simple line AOE that affects all.
You dont seem to understand the basic disparity here. It doesnt matter if the melee has to actually think about the danger at close range - it affects the party negatively. Why would healers not prefer a ranged dps where they dont have to heal through the dmg that melees take from vulcan. Why would tanks not prefer to have more ranged where they dont even have to pay attention to cleaves? Its funny that you mention chimera. That fight has less things to worry about in melee range, since voice of ram should be stunned by the OT. You know what my FC does? We stack all ranged at melee range.

Ranged can attack at both close and range, melee only at close - choose your position accordingly. Healers have to heal more, tanks have to worry more about position. How can you not see the disparity here?

You named no specific attacks, but let's go with what you have, conal attacks, monks and dragoons getting killed by conal attacks are bad monks and dragoons, don't be infront of bosses, companies can't balance mechanics around bad players, and close aoe attacks, there is one in the whole game I can think of that you can't disabled, repelling cannons, maybe this whole thread is about that one move, if so, yes I guess it is unfair to ask melee dps to avoid one attack that ranged doesn't have to. Or maybe you are upset because you didn't finish on top of a parser, if that's the case, I have no use for you anyway. People that are concerned more about parsing than beating encounters are what hold groups back.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

snip

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Again it doesnt matter if its easy to dodge for the melee, easy to heal for the healer and easy to position for the tank. Fact is if a group can pick a class that doesnt have to worry about it, they will go with the easier route. Hence why people prefer to stack ranged instead of melee and hence why its going to be changed in 2.1.

Its called balance.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Its funny that you mention chimera.

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Chimera is balanced, for every melee mechanic, there is a ranged mechanic, I have said the mechanics are overall balanced, and why bring melee, melee limit breaks come to mind, dragoons can absolutely destroy dreadnaughts on Twintania with Life surge, ranged has no stuns, only silence, dragoons have 2 stuns, and monks have a stun and a silence on a shorter cooldown than bards, melee may be in bit more danger, but they have access to second wind and bloodbath, bards just second wind, summoners and black mages have to stop dps completely and cast to even attempt to try to heal themselves. Having a monk for their mantra never sucks, I'm sure there are more reasons to bring some melee, but I'll stop there, if your FC is one that has blinders and thinks all ranged is the only way to get things done, roll with it, there are multiple ways to beat things in this game.

The adjustment was monk/dragoon v. bard, not all ranged, so it's not a safety based on mechanic thing, its that dragoons and monks can drop damage from too much movement and bards don't, not a near far thing, and we don't know how it will be equalized, they may nerf bard, they may increase the duration of Greased Lightning/Heavy Thrust buffs, we don't know yet.