As it is right now, you don't really need any accuracy except for coil. That's...alright, lets just assume it's a very low accuracy cap, but the new problem rises with how it is implemented on armor.
As it is right now DL has a sick amount of accuracy which over caps anything we have out. Take bard for example, you end up with 500~ accuracy and you only need 473~ for the current content.
The next problem comes to light when you start upgrading your gear, accuracy doesn't upgrade, it downgrades....why?
For bard, which I'm familiar with, you go from 500~ to 475, barely hitting the cap.
Another problem comes when you have two sets of gear to choose from (allgana/myth). If you're a DoW dps, if your chest/legs don't have ACC on it, well, tough luck.
I'll explain the consequences of this: 1. you can't use any upgrade of gear you want. 2. ACC doesn't act as a natural ilvl restriction, just a cockblock 3. casters way easier, making it somewhat unfair 4. If new contents comes with higher requirements people will be forced to use DL.
In my opinion, accuracy should be rethough as a natural item level barrier for dps. Should be that all of the gear has accuracy (as a fifth stat perhaps) so the player can choose from Det/skillspeed/crit/ect. As it is, the current system "works" but it feels like walking with one leg: very sloppy.
Accuracy, a poorly designed stat
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11-12-2013, 10:30 PMAlzitheAccuracy, a poorly designed stat
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11-12-2013, 10:42 PMEasymodeX
QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ
You do realize that the difference between 500 acc and the cap(s) in Coil are basically 1 item ... right? -
11-12-2013, 10:52 PMKevee
First, you can use food(unlike SMNs). This is upwards of 21-22 ACC.
Second, casters having it easier? Our relics don't have accuracy on them, which is why our cap is lower(Although SMN is, again, shafted in this). -
11-12-2013, 10:52 PMAlzithe
That is incorrect. Easymodex
You could go ahead and feel comfortable in a sloppy system but we know it's a hinderance.
Please, leave a constructive comment instead of judging what I said. Otherwise, your input is same as nothing.
To clarify, it would be one big piece with 0 accuracy, like chest or legs, or weapon.
@ Keevee
I am aware of that, but your ACC cap is very, very low as compared to DoW, you have to admit that. Making it easier for itemization (being able to pick less items with ACC)
Correct me if I'm mistaken but DoW has to pick 8 pieces with ACC including the weapon. -
11-12-2013, 10:59 PMEasymodeXI am human. Therefore I judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
::shocke::Quote:
To clarify, it would be one big piece with 0 accuracy, like chest or legs, or weapon.
It's horrible that you'll be overcap on accuracy for all of 1 week, assuming you randomly threw away all your old gear.
::world's smallest violin::
What will you ever do?
Somehow it seems like more DoW gear ends up having accuracy to compensate!Quote:
Correct me if I'm mistaken but DoW has to pick 8 pieces with ACC including the weapon.
Well-played, SE, well-played. -
11-12-2013, 11:00 PMKeveeOur ACC cap(minus SMN pet) is about minus the accuracy on relic weapons. That is, the cap is 430-435. Bard+1 has 37 Accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
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11-13-2013, 02:07 AMLecreuset
Well damn, people really do complain about everything. This time it's about Accuracy?
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11-13-2013, 02:49 AMPiedPiper
I don't have a huge issue with the current system, that said the entire point of itemizatio on pld is to hit the acc cap in as few pieces as possible while maximizing parry. The fact that the options exist is kinda nifty, but it does mean that given the rng factor in loot, upgrading can be very tricky (any pld getting allagan legs as their first drop is pretty heavily hamstringed compared to one getting acessories or really any other piece).
I also don't think the OP is as QQ as they come off/have been accused of. There is a difference between a dedicated player genuinely thinking a game mechanic could be improved, and blinding QQ'ing cus they feel personally hampered (usually because x is too hard omg).
I kinda think the OP has a point. Acc should be based off iLvl. (either as a hidden calculation or a fifth stat). This would also solve scholar's energy drain problems (they have no access to accuracy, and yet a core mechanic of the class is based off this stat).
Also, just cus the current system works or is better for some classes than otehrs doesn't mean it couldn't be improved. -
11-13-2013, 04:19 AMAlzitheYou missed the point, and probably I missed the wording, the problem is not the stat itself it's the implementation.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
As it is, there's only 1 build people can make out of their 90 gear (mainly DoW) because of how accuracy is set.
This makes it so you can have less interchange-able items producing less variety. End result everybody will end up with exactly the same gear, exactly same stats, everything the same. And I don't think that's the purpose when having choices.
If SE wants to make endgame gear to be the same for all why not just make allagan and myth identical? I mean, having gear that you can't use at all it's kind of... dumb?
I'm not arguing with you but I think you're missing my point. Accuracy just seems badly implemented don't you think? i70 having more than i90? Why is that? My current dream set has the correct amount of accuracy and I know it'll take me 9 more weeks to get, meaning I can play with the current system but does it really feel this system is okay with you as it is? -
11-13-2013, 04:20 AMEasymodeX
i90 gear has plenty of accuracy options.
Min/maxing will always lead to a single-ish BiS list.
... the end. -
11-13-2013, 04:27 AMAlzithe
It's not a complaint. It's just that as is, it diminishes gear variety, forces players into very specific gear builds and doesn't motivate gear progression. I think it's a subject that should come to light and thus I made this thread. Since accuracy is insignificant until coil players don't really see it as a hassle until it restricts items you can get.
Ex. In an all i90 gear set fir bard, you can't take the allagan chest, the pants, the gloves, the weapon, earrings, bracelet. You just can't otherwise miss chances will go about hurting your dps. As the system is made, 1 primary stat outweighs the secondary so you just can't mix i70 with i90 (assuming you can get full 90) to use the gear mentioned above.
In conclusion, the mentioned gear above just serves as temporary upgrade and will never make it into a whole set -
11-13-2013, 04:32 AMAlzitheThat's partially true. Some players might want to get crit/det while others might want crit/SS or SS/det or mix their gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
This is called diversity and it's usually good, making things less stale. As it is, people are FORCED to be the same which leads to staleness.
For some classes it has more options than others, but as it is, it's restricting. It doesn't take rocket science to figure the build you must get to add up the accuracy but just makes the process of getting it extra tedious and very, very linear.
Wouldn't you like it if accuracy was actually a relevant stat that you look forward to raising other than just wall? -
11-13-2013, 05:27 AMEasymodeXNo I insist, all players basically have a fixed target of stats, and exactly 1 combination of gear will match that target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
Accuracy is no different than Skill Speed -- by and large people try to avoid it.
If you have a greater concern about itemization in general (only two sets of gear with fixed stats, no flexibility to cut stats that are weaker, availability of certain acc-affecting slots no sooner than Turn 5), sure feel free to complain about it. Lots of people have various degrees of problems with the general constraints imposed by the current system (even though the current system is no better/worse than almost any other MMO out there).
However, attention to accuracy in particular is misguided particularly when complaining that DL has "a lot" and i90 has "too little", because that latter half of that statement is completely false, and the former is /shrug since you can get crafted to adjust if necessary.
However, if you are saying that any stat with the design of having a minimum mandatory threshold is undesireable, then that works I suppose. In which case, though, you're suggesting to do away with accuracy altogether, because class mechanics cannot deal with other non-"100%" forms of accuracy calculation. -
11-13-2013, 05:54 AMKalandros
WoW is finally doing away with 4 stats that have been there for years: Hit, Expertise, Parry, Dodge.
I wonder how long Squenix will remain with this outdated model. They should improve the system instead of copying it. -
11-13-2013, 08:22 AMAlzitheYou got me wrong, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
I don't mind that accuracy is "a minimum mandatory threshold" but the only place you'll need it for is coil. Prior to that you can very well ignore it. There's no tiers with accuracy so devs just throw it off as a stat that you must reach because... ??? This means all content after coil 5 will have the exact same ACC cap and so on. There's no progression with ACC, it's not like "I'll finally stop using ACC food because I got an upgrade" it's backwards actually in some cases.
I propose you this, what if the current content had it's own accuracy caps (respective to the ilvl needed) and that all gear gave it, just that higher lvl gear has more accuracy. So all the accuracy is distributed among all pieces of armor equally.
As it is, it's just "okay, this allagan/AF+1 piece is crap" and it's just discarded into oblivion, maybe just there for future vanity.
Consequence would be that the content actually reflects the ilevel of the instance/dungeon/ect and pieces would be even more interchangeable.
It's not a hard task, needs some number balancing but if you're happy by everything being homogenenous then I'd see why you're highly against this. -
11-13-2013, 09:12 AMShadowzanon
Just sayin, if you hate your dark light gives you way more acc than needed (intended to ease the transistion into ilvl 90 gear as even caster dps puts them way over the cap also) You can invest into your gatorskin set. 11 runs or so of wp or ak will get you enough points to buy the most expensive ingredient for the crafted gear and the money you make from killing mobs covers the rest of the materials needed. You can mix and match pieces till you get the desired stats you want, before even touching coils.
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11-13-2013, 09:35 AMAlzitheI have mostly i90 gear and some crafted stuff. I know how to get around the problem, thing is, it's a problem, more so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowzanon
Darklight having too much ACC for anybody is a wasted stat, sure. However, as a counterargument, darklight tank gear has almost no accuracy. In my early days of coil it was an issue that the tank was missing combos more than the tank dying.
If anything the downgrade of accuracy makes the transition from i70 to i90 tougher than it should be.
I'm just going with logic, higher dungeons need higher gear that has higher ACC cap. It's the logic implication.
As it's implemented it's just an arbitrary number you need and that'll define your gear. -
11-13-2013, 09:45 AMShadowzanon
Aye about all of the dps sets seem to have waaay over the ammount of acc even needed to do coils. I am just guessing it is probably ment that way as you transition into ilvl 90 gear. yeah i got some crafted ones and im scratching the cap currently, if i were to get the chest not even food would put me on the cap which may prompt me to use some of my darklight gear or wait till i can get the leggings to compensate for my acc loss. i have been switching alot of my melding around as i gain new pieces but even im running out of options. depends on what drops in coils tommorow i may have a big problem stored for me. cant by nothing via myth points till next week .
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11-13-2013, 10:26 AMAlzitheI feel it's a hidden way to hold back people from gearing to soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowzanon
RNG on coils assures you won't be getting the parts you need and you can only get so much with myth so in the end you're stuck waiting for RNG to give you the parts with ACC if ever. -
11-13-2013, 01:25 PMImoye
Accuracy/hit rating etc is an outdated and boring stat. No one likes it, so why put it in a game?
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11-13-2013, 04:03 PMAlmalexiaHe's right, dude. Accuracy is relevant to only one remote corner of the whole game. It's a mystery why they bothered to include it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
If intelligently implemented, it creates a tension between how often you hit vs. how hard you hit. Accuracy should be another opportunity cost we use to evaluate gear. But in FFXIV it's useless until the very end, and pretty nonsensical. I mean, why does ilvl70 have so much ACC if it wasn't even intended for the ilvl90 content we're doing now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Imoye
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11-13-2013, 04:10 PMPellegriIt's best not to bother trying to understand the logic of someone who tries to pass his understanding of mediocre stats for other classes off as the best thing ever for them as he's done in other threads(his SS arguments for bards for one). Accuracy on the other hand just seems like one of those things that they threw in at the last second and told people they need it to hit things in the hardest dungeon as a way to try and limit progression in said dungeon. There's a reason why WoW is getting rid of it in their next expac, it's one thing if it's fun to gear around it and it offers some real gameplay value, it's another thing when it becomes a requirement that all dps and tanks have it or they become worthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Almalexia
If they want to do higher raids like this where you need more and more to be able to always hit then ok that's somewhat fine, but if they only require the current amount until the level cap is raised then it's one of those things where you ask why did they even bother adding this when the cap never changes and it's easier and easier to obtain. -
11-13-2013, 10:51 PMEasymodeXUh, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
ACC is based on mob level. Turn 1-4 has been estimated at 472 acc to cap. Turn 5 is higher acc to cap. Odin is even higher Acc. Ever wonder why it's hard to get gold on the guy? Miss miss miss miss miss miss miss miss. That's literally the first thing I noticed when I attacked Odin -- and I had almost 480 acc at the time. Now I have 502 acc because my current itemization sucks, and I'm pretty sure I still got a miss or two the last time I attacked him.
Wonder what level the X-primals will be. 57? 59? How about Turn 6-10? Level 60? -
11-14-2013, 01:08 AMAlzitheI didn't know that, but it just makes it worse. It means you can't even reach said cap with i90 gear which makes close to no sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
So the morale is that you must equip DL when fighting odin/behe? I'm not complaining accuracy exists, just that it's misplaced and at times randomly set on items with no logic reason.
You really think it doesn't deserve a change anywhere?
@Pellergi
Accuracy would be more interesting if your attacks fumbled (the anti-crit) which deal less damage and if it was actually reflective of your current gear. Like WP has cap of....430? Then titan at 460? I just can't set my mind on why it's a random arbitrary number there without any sense of progression gearwise. -
11-14-2013, 01:19 AMVelev
i totally agree with the Op. Acc needs either better implementing by having it on lvl90 gear or be removed totally.
Seems like it was just thrown in there last minute.
If you lose acc, which you do swapping from DL to ilvl90, then why make acc such an important stat ONLY on coil and on nothing else before that?
Clearly something is wrong here.. -
11-14-2013, 01:24 AMScella
I disagree with removing accuracy, it's like wanting to eat the cookie and have it.
For accuracy starved people, you'd have to do the trade off of hitting for just a wee bit weaker, but getting off all hits instead (crucial for combo classes).
Classes that don't depend on combos, having misses is not as crucial (but still a loss of damage).
I for one like the idea of swapping pieces for certain situations, you can now have BiS gear for damage, or swap some pieces out required to get all hits off in that situation. -
11-14-2013, 01:31 AMAlzitheQuote:
Originally Posted by Scella
The loss of other attributes is not huge loss of damage because of how primary stats were designed. It's not that people CHOOSE to loss accuracy, you just do out of upgrading your gear from i70 to i90. Very rarely will i90 will have more accuracy which is just contradictory to progress. Not to mention, it's only important for coil right now and it's discarded on the rest of the content.
As it is, some i90 pieces are untouchable for certain classes due to this implementation of ACC.
Truth is, it's badly implemented and it needs changing at least, removing it altogether would be because they can't find a way to make ACC a real stat. -
11-14-2013, 01:33 AMEasymodeXWhy are you so fixated on DL? You could use i90 slots with accuracy for Odin. Or crafted gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
Not necessarily, but it depends on what is alleged to be the problem. As I said, I'm not against accuracy being removed wholesale since a binary "get X stat minimum" is obnoxious.Quote:
You really think it doesn't deserve a change anywhere?
However, the components of your argument are/were off-base. You first assumed that the only purpose for acc is Coil, creating an arbitrary link along the lines of "DL is required for Coil only".
Second, you seem to be very fixated on Darklight for some unknown reason. If you're saying that Darklight has too few non-acc options for players who choose not to do Coil (or simply to mix and match pieces in general), and that Primals need higher acc requirements (less than Coil) that's one thing.
However, complaining that "Darklight has accuracy!" is irrelevant.
It's not random and arbitrary. It's based on the mob level. Higher level mobs and higher-tier content require more acc. That's pretty logical. Not necessarily perfect game design by any stretch, but it is coherent and legitimate.Quote:
I just can't set my mind on why it's a random arbitrary number there without any sense of progression gearwise.
This is delusional. i90 has as much accuracy as i70. It's all over the place -- and for same slots with the same priority, i90 has more raw acc than i70 gear.Quote:
Very rarely will i90 will have more accuracy which is just contradictory to progress.
I'm sitting here on my DRG with mostly i90 gear at 502 accuracy, and I'm trying to reduce it. I can't even upgrade my belt from Allagan to BiS Myth because it will increase my accuracy. -
11-14-2013, 01:43 AMScella
There is no "need" to upgrade to higher ilvl eq if it gimps your function.
Said +ilvl equipment might be better for another fight? Dress for the occasion, in the same manner you prolly wouldn't show up in your jammies or worn clothes for a high profile job interview, unless he casting for a hobo role in a movie -
11-14-2013, 02:04 AMAlzitheHmm... for bard the maximum you can get is 481 with the allagan helmet.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
Both allagan nad myth boots don't provide ACC, neither does the belt or neck and you can only use one allagan ring, thus full i90 has a max of 480~ for bards. Can't get any higher. Might be some class issue but still it's an issue. The point of some gear being totally discarded for some classes still stands.
@ Scella
Your analogies don't fit well since this is a game. In real life lacoste gear isn't better than gap...
You don't get my point, I have a set I'm aiming for, it has the needed ACC, the problem can be BYPASSED, but it's just going around it.
Some 90 pieces won't see the light of the sun ever because of how some random pieces has and don't have ACC. Might as well just eliminate them from the game right? -
11-14-2013, 02:12 AMEasymodeXSo, I just spent about 2 minutes on xivdb and it looks like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alzithe
weapon, earring, helm, legs, chest, ring, bracelet, hands
For Bards can all get acc, for a total of 509 accuracy, giving you about 27-37 points to shuffle for higher DPS stats.
Edit: Actually I summed the wrong helm, so you can get up to 515 accuracy. All that assuming I didn't fat finger or eyeball something wrong, since as I said I spent about 2 minutes looking through the items. -
11-14-2013, 02:26 AMAlzitheYou're right on the items but not on the numbers. I think you might be putting higher starting ACC because we can't get that high, only with darklight. There no way I can reach 515 if I'm missing just a few pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
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11-14-2013, 02:46 AMPellegriWhile I may not be sure on turn 5(I've never missed with 472 acc and 50+ attempts), I can tell you you're wrong on Odin. You miss so many attacks on him because of lag, a missed attack does not give you back tp or mana like it does on him. It just does not register that you even used the attack at all due to the mob ontop of him, an attack that does not register will not use tp/mp which is why you are constantly capped even when you're spamming attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
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11-14-2013, 12:41 PMIxsiehn
Accuracy is fine as it is, the main issue isnt that 1 stat.
The main and biggest issue at the moment is the complete lack of gearing options and/or gearing customization.
There is no reforging to adjust your stats, no gemming(materia) to socket on ilvl90 gears, and only 2 options for ilvl 90 which means your BiS is very linear and set. What stats you have is nearly completely dictated by SE and not by the players. -
11-15-2013, 01:28 AMNuffyDropping truth bombs all up in this thread. Stop it you're hurting feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
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11-15-2013, 07:38 AMabzoluutExactly. It's rather unfortunate that some of these devs helped working on WoW, but don't understand where to change for the better.. Give DPS/healing/tanking stats rather than a zillion stats no one wants.. WoW finally seems to get the pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalandros
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11-18-2013, 09:33 AMSezuelWhy? because DL has the highest ACC by far when it is technically 2 tiers of gear below BiS and yet seems to have the highest ACC out of ANYHINGQuote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
Basically ... it is ONLY for Coils ... if you are reaching the typical HP requirements people have for titan to not be considered a carry then your acc is well over his necessary and other than Titan, coils is the only current content you need to actually worry about it as stated by another, Odin/Behemoth is not a matter of missing it is a matter of not actually using the ability in the first place as there are usually upwards of 10-15 full 8 man groups fighting him which really messes with NPC loading.Quote:
However, the components of your argument are/were off-base. You first assumed that the only purpose for acc is Coil, creating an arbitrary link along the lines of "DL is required for Coil only".
where's your proof? I've yet to see anything in the game that says the lvl 57 Odin is any harder to hit than the lvl 50 Odin ... even had a lvl 37 BLM help fight the lvl 57 Odin and he was hitting nearly 89% of the timeQuote:
It's not random and arbitrary. It's based on the mob level. Higher level mobs and higher-tier content require more acc. That's pretty logical. Not necessarily perfect game design by any stretch, but it is coherent and legitimate.
yes it does ... in more horrendous and much more required spots, sure each piece has more on it but that just narrows options even more since you HAVE to pick up the acc versions of ilv90 in order to scrape your way over cap where ilv70 rockets you over the cap like it was nothing.Quote:
This is delusional. i90 has as much accuracy as i70. It's all over the place -- and for same slots with the same priority, i90 has more raw acc than i70 gear.
if it is really BiS then why not upgrade to it? if you upgrade that then you could easily trade out a different pieceQuote:
I'm sitting here on my DRG with mostly i90 gear at 502 accuracy, and I'm trying to reduce it. I can't even upgrade my belt from Allagan to BiS Myth because it will increase my accuracy.
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11-21-2013, 07:40 PMApplekrumble
I personally think there needs to be more diversification in terms of gear stats; as things go - everyone ends up using the same set of gear.
Hopefully the new craftable items would remedy it, or probably the new junk from the hard dungeons - but then again; maybe they'll just make those ilvl100 and everyone'll just comply by wearing the same junk.