Assuming that new jobs will equal new kinds of weapons (guns for muskateers, samurai swords for samurai etc), won't current dungeons and HM Primals just be absurd to get your weapon drop?
Think of it this way; if there is suddenly 15 jobs that use different weapons, you then only have a ONE IN FIFTEEN chance of getting your drop. That can lead to people never getting their primal weapons, etc. The only solution I can think of is having a weapon/armor drops be completely dependent on what jobs are in the instance/party.
On the other hand, you'd also see crazy things like 8 man whitemage parties for guaranteed staff drops.
You already hear about how bad coil drops are (people keep saying MNK and DRG stuff drops too much, especially). Imagine when there's 4-5 more jobs that need weapons/gear. Yeeeesh. Even worse with a lock out timer.
I like this idea a lot! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nullie
Weapon drops will need to be adjusted for new jobs/classes
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11-09-2013, 04:56 AMNoahlimitsWeapon drops will need to be adjusted for new jobs/classes
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11-09-2013, 04:59 AMGarnatian
It's what Square calls "content".
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11-09-2013, 05:00 AMZeroRains
Forget samurai, Dark Knight NEEDS to be in. We already have a paladin ;/
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11-09-2013, 05:01 AMNoahlimitsHaha, I only used that as an example. I'm sure DK, MSK, NIN, SAM, THF etc will all eventually be included. I just think gear drops will be ABSURD at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroRains
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11-09-2013, 05:02 AMTiggyIs this supposed to be whitty?Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnatian
@Noahlimits of course they will put it in and it will have an equal chance as the other items to drop. Sure people will have many of those jobs leveled already, but the game will also have new players. You expect them to see the same damn item repeatedly just because it's new to most of the players? In your world someone still ends up on an unfair footing from the rest. The best way to handle it is as square has done so far. Make all drops equal chance. -
11-09-2013, 05:09 AMNoahlimitsWhat I ment was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
-8 party set up in a primal (PLD PLD MNK MNK BRD WHM WHM BRD)
-Primal is defeated
-You will ONLY get a primal drop for a class that was used to defeat him (PLD, MNK, BRD, WHM)
I think you misunderstood my original post; I'm saying it's bad enough to get a primal / gear drop that nobody currently in the party can use (especially with primals), and it'll be worse with new classes. I'm not saying new class/job drops should be dropped more often than any others. -
11-09-2013, 05:18 AMOrophinI don't really support this as sometimes it's nice to have a weapon ready and sitting for you there once you hit 50. I have like 4 each Ifrit and Garuda weapons I can't even use yet but eventually I'll be able to once my jobs reach that point. Besides, I think I've seen a weapon get needed more often than it going greed to someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:23 AMTiggyYeah I misunderstood what you meant. Although, I don't really agree with this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:24 AMRemnnot really liking the idea. if that happen then we will have ppl forming party with only certian, to gain max change to obtain that class weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:25 AMNoahlimitsBut what about when you're trying to level your main and really want your weapon drop? If there's 15 jobs at the time, do you really only want a 0.0666666% chance (thanks for correcting my brain fart meow) of getting your weapon drop? That could lead to hundreds of runs before you might actually see your weapon. You may see a weapon get needed more often than greed, but I can assure that will chance when new jobs are added (basic math).Quote:
Originally Posted by Orophin
What I said isn't the only and/or best solution to the upcoming problem; just one possible solution to even worse drop rates. :) Do you have another idea that doesn't require crafted gear?
Imagine how it'll be when there's 3-6 additional weapons in the mix!Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisCaelus
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11-09-2013, 05:26 AMNoctisCaelus
Yeah.. a part of me dislikes when a group are farming and a spear drops when there's no dragoon in the party. Haha. xD
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11-09-2013, 05:27 AMTupsiNo. They added SCH/ACN/SMN books to the loot tables just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:27 AMxwxmeowxvvxIf there are 15 jobs, its not a 15% drop chance.... its 1/15 = 0.0666666Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:29 AMTiggyThis. So much this, but with better grammar and spelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remn
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11-09-2013, 05:29 AMNoahlimitsSorry, my brain was retarded. Editing original post.Quote:
Originally Posted by xwxmeowxvvx
So you rather have a .0666666 chance of getting your weapon drop instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
They added them to the loot tables just fine, but they also lowered everybody's chances at getting the weapon drop of their class (more weapons = less chance to get the weapon you need). The more classes/weapons they add, the less likely you'll ever get the weapon/gear drop you need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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11-09-2013, 05:30 AMArgent_Wings
I'm having a hard time understanding why all bosses except the last one in a dungeon, only drop 1 item at a time to begin with. I think all bosses should drop at least 1 weapon and 1 armor piece per kill.
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11-09-2013, 05:30 AMPyretta_Blaze
The last thing I want is a weapon for the job I'm in there doing it on. That job probably has a relic or is doing the fight on the way to a relic. I want a drop for something I don't have a better weapon for already. Or I can always turn stuff in for GC seals.
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11-09-2013, 05:33 AMEightbit
As long as grand company weapons still exist, I am not worried. Primal weapons are more a luxury when you have a GC weapon.
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11-09-2013, 05:35 AMNoahlimitsSo when you're a fresh fifty (assuming it's your first), you don't want a ifrit or garuda weapon? You want to be stuck with a darklight and/or GC weapon trying to fight Titan? I feel like you're looking at it from the point of view of someone who already has a level 50 with relic/garuda weapon they can grind primals with for other weapons (and looking at your profile, you have no 50's. I advise trying to take on titan with a GC weapon party before saying you wouldn't want it for your current relic questing class). Fresh 50's are going to have a very hard time getting their primal weapons (which they DO need if they don't want to be carried past Titan).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze
Have you tried fighting Titan with a party that ONLY has GC weapons? It's not pretty getting past heart phase, even building up LB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eightbit
Or maybe I'm just crazy and people won't care about grinding a primal 500 times for a weapon they actually need. It just seems bad from my point of view. -
11-09-2013, 05:46 AMTiggyI'm perfectly content with this. Yes. This is the way MMO's work. I don't want to play a game where every time I kill a boss I get a handout. Sometimes you have to kill it with your friends a few times, and that's how it should be. Also, sometimes I like farming for secondary jobs as I level them by using my existing endgame character. Your proposal would make that impossible and would be incredibly more annoying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
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11-09-2013, 05:49 AMTerius
I can see it now. Some crafty leader setting up raids so he's the only one of job X in that group. :p
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11-09-2013, 05:51 AMNoahlimitsYou'd have to do the primal an unrealistic amount to likely get your weapon drop with the ratio used above. And that's not even a guarantee. This is a drop that is almost absolutely necessary to advance past future content/primals (unless you're being carried). Putting every player through that just to advance in content does not sound wise. =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
I don't know any MMO that requires you to grind the same ENTRY LEVEL end game boss 1500 times to possibly get your needed weapon. If there is, I'll totally stand corrected. It just seems like a bad business model, it's not about being handed anything.
I'm a history major, my math is terribad. Edited. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MieyCyruuuus
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11-09-2013, 05:55 AMMieyCyruuuusyea, your math is bad. really really bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
1/15 is a probability. please convert it to percentage first. -
11-09-2013, 05:57 AMTiggyQuote:
Originally Posted by Noahlimits
You're math is very bad. 1 drop out of 15 would drop, on average, once every 15 runs. If you go 1500 times without seeing it then you've had an extraordinarily and statistically amazing bad run of luck. -
11-09-2013, 05:58 AMNoahlimitsYeah, I edited it before you posted (just barely). But I digress, the point is it will get even worse than it is now. 6.666% chance (if there were 15 different weapons) or something, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
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11-09-2013, 06:00 AMPyretta_Blaze
Most fresh 50's will have GC weapons and most likely be doing Titan HM with a mixed group where a couple of GC weapons isn't going to be a big deal.
Yes, if a group of 8 fresh with AF and GC weapon might have some trouble on Titan but that seems fine to me. I ran Ifrit tons of times before I got the rewards I wanted and then I ran Garuda a bunch more for her drops. You should have to put in time to get such a significant upgrade.
I have done titan with people who don't have anything better than GC weapons. It wasn't as easy but it was doable.
However to the OP's actual issue I do wish they would re-implement the tokens that you could trade in for the weapon of your choice if you got unlucky with the loot drops. It worked well in 1.23 where you still had to complete the content several times to get enough tokens but they could also be passed to help out that one person get theirs faster when the drop just wouldn't come.
Oh and I know the pain of not getting the drops you want. I ranted about it a bit in my blog.
By the way, this is my 2nd account I use to post from when I don't have my authenticator on me. Check my actual character if you care about my levels so much http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/363665/ -
11-09-2013, 06:04 AMNoahlimitsIf you're in a party where the majority has Relic or Garuda/Ifrit weapons, aren't you essentially being carried past heart phase when you have GC? I mean, granted, you still have to dodge and stay alive otherwise. And I don't care about levels so much, I simply said it sounded like both perspectives were that of someone who already had a 50 with relic/garuda/ifrit (which you both did/do).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze
Daily limit, so:
That's the thing; this isn't just about primals. Let's assume down the line (or as you put it, far far down the line) there are 12 jobs (not hard to believe they'd introduce 3/4 new jobs/classes with a full expansion). Any single gear/weapon drop boss is going to only have a 8.3% chance to drop your weapon/armor. I think that goes beyond the point of 'earning' it. They also seem to like putting a time lock on how often you can do end game content to get the gear. Even if you're fine with a 8.3% chance (in the above example) of getting your weapon, doing a coil-like instance that you can do once a week takes away your whole grinding/earning factor and makes it almost unbearable (at least for me) to get a drop that I need. I don't expect to be handed it, but even a 10% chance to get my required drop is terrible when they limit how often I can do the instance (unless if you truly thing coil is the only instance that will have a lock out/weekly period).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggy
I also totally respect your opinion. I just have a different one, but that's why I made the thread in the first place; for debate and general population opinion. I'm quite possibly wrong in thinking it'll make getting end game / gear you need accessible without endless grinding. In fact, I'm hoping I am wrong.
Hell, it's bad enough NOW to get the coil drops you actually need (from what the forums say, at least).
Also, yay. I did the math correct to get the 6.66/7 % in my earlier post (I suck at math, so remembering is/was hard). -
11-09-2013, 06:07 AMTupsi
The thing is though - By time you get to the primal farm stage you're doing your relic quest, which is a guaranteed "amazing" weapon for your level 50 job - you already negate the purpose of doing primals for a weapon as by time you get a titan weapon, you beat titan...you already got your relic.
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11-09-2013, 06:10 AMTiggy
Your hypothetical 15 is first and foremost such a large number of job increases that it will be years before we see it. So right out of the gate I can tell you that worrying about primal drops a few years from now will be the least of your worries as the game and it's end game progression will be so different that these specific fights will become inconsequential.
Let's get back to today's jobs and how the odds change as we add more job classes.
Right now we have 9 jobs. Lets look at the drop rates when divided evenly as we progress and add more jobs.
1/9 = 11.11%
1/10 = 10%
1/11 = 9.09%
1/12 = 8.33
1/13 = 7.69%
1/14 = 7.14%
1/15 = 6.67%
They would have to add two jobs to even get below 10% drop rate. This is still statistically not a bad situation at all since 1 in 10 runs will have some decent odds of dropping your weapon. With 8 players looking for loot your odds are still pretty good.
Right now we don't even know when the first new job will actually be added as there haven't been any hints that it might drop before the first expansion does, and that is still a year out even at conservative estimates. In the end you've filled your entire argument with with hyperbole about how long and how many runs it may take to get weapons in a perceived job filled future. I find that argument to have no substance both mathematically and logistically. The game will change greatly by the time we have that many jobs and these fights won't be a key part of end game anymore. I understand you point, but I find it to be entirely a non-issue. -
11-09-2013, 06:30 AMBufkus
By the time new classes are released, they will probably release content that will allow you to skip most of the early primal weapons.
I think a bigger problem would be having content that allows more classes to participate. The 4 and 8 mans aren't going to cut it. -
11-09-2013, 06:36 AMEstelliosThis is my take on it. More GC ranks, maybe some that give iL65-70 weapons so you can get caught up a bit more quickly for content. Not to mention more crafted weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bufkus
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11-09-2013, 06:37 AMMysteltainAgreed. Overall I think they messed up with gear distribution in post-50 content. It's pretty ridiculous that you just need to run two dungeons ad nauseum to get tokens that you trade in for gear that is either 20 or 40 levels above the game's max level--not to mention 10+ levels better than what those selfsame dungeons drop. Combine that with simply needing to farm HM Primals to get gear that's 10 or 20 levels above the max, and it really gives you little incentive to even bother earning this old gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
I think what should've happened was that you earned tokens for defeating the Primals (potentially being, and often, shorter than dungeons), which you then trade in for their respective weapons (Ifrit=50, Garuda=55, Titan=60). WP would drop iLvl-55 Darklight Gear (it already drops the Darklight weapons, so why not just include the gear, too?), and AK would still drop its iLvl-60 gear, no weapons. There would be an iLvl-65 dungeon and an iLvl-70 dungeon. CT would remain iLvl-80, and Coil iLvl-90. The standard Relic questline would be much longer--probably incorporating remixed versions of each of the iLvl-55-70 dungeons, instanced fights, a few extra bosses, etc.--and the AF+1 and Relic+1's wouldn't exist.
It's an incredibly biased idea and is in no way applicable now, but I just really dislike the idea of token farming two dungeons in order to get far superior gear than those dungeons even drop. Plus, I think it would further increase the demand for the level 55 and 70 crafter armor and weapons, since Relics would be harder to obtain and the best gear you could feasibly get would only be iLvl-80 weapons (Relics) and iLvl-70 armor. Only the best players would be able to get some iLvl-90 pieces from Coil until CT comes out. -
11-09-2013, 06:39 AMFeyniphia
Wouldn't it be better to drop TWO items when a boss is defeated in 8 man parties?
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11-09-2013, 06:43 AMPyretta_BlazeI liked it back when they dropped one weapon and the one token. The tokens could be collected and turned in for a weapon of your choice if you were generally unlucky in drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyniphia
Honestly I bet they will adjust something by the time new jobs come out. I'm not going to worry about gearing up nonexistent jobs. -
11-09-2013, 06:45 AMNullie
I kinda like the idea of only having items drop that can be used on with classes that already are on. Our coil static doesn't have a dragoon in the mix so we don't really need them and I'd like a greater chance at receiving something I can actually use. It's a good idea, but I do like receiving items for future use as well. If it were added as a whole then I couldn't get something I might could use at a later time cause I would never have the chance at getting it. Unless someone was in the party playing that specific class and passed on it.
I sort of can see a possible solution to this though. Maybe add rule options before the fight starts. Like "Loot: Job Specific (Meaning only possible loot will be for jobs completed with) or Job Randomized (Meaning any job items can drop.)
I'm a collector. I like to collect multiple weapons. I'll add them to my house eventually if we can. So, I do like the idea! -
11-09-2013, 06:47 AMRadacci
or you can skip primal weps, and get relic? :) then you dont need to grind primals, forever, without getting anything.
and why should new jobs get easy-access to weps/gear anyways? -
11-09-2013, 06:48 AMEstelliosYou must misremember the part where you would get grade 5 dark matter 10 times in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze
Just to clarify for anyone that didn't play 1.0, for Ifrit and Moogles everyone in the party had a low chance to get a random weapon that was instantly placed in their inventory (so you couldn't pass it around). Everyone in the party also had a low-ish chance to get one token in their loot list which could be passed around and needed 10 to trade in for a weapon.
Garuda was much better, with the same low weapon chance but she always dropped 1-2 tokens (I believe depending upon kill speed, but due to how the fight works it was pretty much guaranteed to be 2 tokens) per person and needed 40 for a weapon. -
11-09-2013, 07:23 AMFeyniphiaI see. :) was just suggesting something, and hoped some peeps would be interested, but as long as something can be planned to make the grinding less hellish, I'm up for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze
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11-09-2013, 07:30 AMPyretta_BlazeOh I don't misremember. I do remember running Ifrit multiple times when my LS was all out of dark matter for repairs. You know, back when people repaired each others equpment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
That whole drops into your inventory thing made me want to ragequit 4/5 runs... -
11-09-2013, 08:10 AMFelis
You can always buy a crafted weapon if you don't have drop luck.