I am strongly considering in investing time to grind the philo to make an entire gryphonskin accessory set. Each item can be socketed with 10 vit and 8 parry. Initially I would be -45 parry but with melds I will make up 32. But the total benefit would be +36 str and +36dex.
My biggest concern is at what point is stacking VIT no longer the best option? I heard about some tanks striving for 240 dex with melds for some block/parry wall, but I have yet to find hard statistics on this. I am downing turn 4 np, I am just interested in maximizing my potential moving into turn 5.
Feelings on Dex?! (Gryphonskin accessories)
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10-30-2013, 06:42 AMFaeronFeelings on Dex?! (Gryphonskin accessories)
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10-30-2013, 06:43 AMDhex
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10-30-2013, 06:46 AMLeiron
From everything I have read and teted myself, Dex is pretty much worthless for tanking.
Increasing your vitality means you'll have more health, and having the extra health is more important than increasing your parry/block rate by an incredibly small amount.
Mind you parrying/block also isn't consistent either. -
10-30-2013, 06:46 AMDhex
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10-30-2013, 06:50 AMFaeronIsnt workingQuote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
And I get all that, but +32str/+32dex seems a bit awesome, espeically if raising dex beyond certain points give an over-all increase in rate and damage reduced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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10-30-2013, 06:59 AMDhexOh - well use the advanced search on the Tank Forum for the term "Dex" it's been discussed and dismissed 2/3 maybe 4 times? (About 15 pages worth of information.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeron
Sorry if I sound like a dick but even increasing DEX would only increase the potential for you to Parry something - lowering/losing Parry for DEX is counter intuitive. Then for this additional DEX to be effective you'd also need to reach a significant tier of Strength - it also still is a RNG form of mitigation; for instance you don't rely on a Critical Hit of Inner Beast or a Critical Cure to keep you alive. It's an inconsistent method of mitigation.
Tanks are best to stack VIT in the allotment, and Parry/Accuracy (PLD) in their melds - Dexterity is essentially a dead end and a waste to your eHP; DEX only effects rate not how much is reduced - that relies entirely on your STR - STR does not scale high enough to make it worth stacking DEX & STR over VIT & STR. -
10-30-2013, 06:59 AMGamemako
Last I checked, I could not find anyone who has done the legwork on figuring out how much Dexterity affects parry chance compared to the Parry secondary stat. There have been theories, but not good data to back it up. I don't think anyone will have the answer you really want.
//EDIT:
This will depend on the relative gains from Dex to Parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
(Also, Gryphonskin can be melded with VIT and Parry, if you didn't know.) -
10-30-2013, 07:03 AMC-croftBut I believe you have told me that this is worthless, no? Along with many others, not just you of course. And not just to me, just DEX is worthless in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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10-30-2013, 07:08 AMGamemakoWith respect to bonus points, there's no way you can catch up -- you should put those points into STR or VIT. Secondary stats are not nearly as valuable as primary stats -- if you choose between +5 STR and +10 DTR, you'd be a damn fool to take the latter. If 1 DEX is worth 1 Parry, then you're still effectively comparing secondary to primary stats because you don't care about the primary portion. However, Gryphonskin or Rose Gold will both have the same VIT, either by melds or natively.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-croft
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10-30-2013, 07:09 AMFaeron
@Gamemako
These are my exact points, has anyone tested this?
By no means am I saying to disregard VIT, but rather should the specific accessories mentioned be considered? The main stats surpass darklight. Aside from that, does +32 dex > -13 parry? Dex affects block rate and parry rate (even though it does not appear on the character screen).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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10-30-2013, 07:11 AMFaeronBut with Gryphonskin you pick up a ton of str and dex, while maintaining VIT and only losing a few parry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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10-30-2013, 07:22 AMDhex
If you've got the time and money to dump into Gryphonskin melding VIT/DET/Crit/Parry then go ahead - but doing it specifically for the DEX is stupid. The gain of having all these stats would be hardly worth the time, money, or effort. You can dance around this as an idea but what's the point? Are you trying to min/max - or is it you want a set you can use across all your DoW?
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10-30-2013, 07:35 AMGamemakoYou would meld STR onto Rose Gold rings otherwise. It's really just the difference of DEX&SSPD on Gryphonskin versus any one other stat of your choosing on Rose Gold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeron
So you would just forgo +Parry because "it's stupid"? If Dexterity affects parry rates, then there's really no difference. Both ilvl70 rings cost the same number of philo items.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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10-30-2013, 07:50 AMDhexI ask because spending all this money on a set that is marginally better after a significant amount of melding is going to leave him dissatisfied - the gains aren't as huge as you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
Just swapping your 30 point allotment around can show you you'd need more than just 30~ stats to make a change (regarding DEX/Parry/DET) - for example every 10.5 (alternating tiers basically 10/11) Skill Speed is .01 off your GCD for example. Thal's balls that's 100 SS for .1 ~ all MNK should stack that SS for posterity!
The same applies for DEX 29/30 DEX ~ 1/2% or +.01 to that there Parry Rating. If it's worth doing it to you - go ahead. Most people will look at that and scoff - as I do - because it's stupid to sink so much effort into something that will not only cost you time/effort/money/patience but it will likely be rendered obsolete when new content gear and new craft gear get's added a few months down the road.
It may cost the same Philo - but it costs gil or time to get Materia. It takes having a craft or a friend with a craft and the catalysts - and for what? Marginal increases - a more even distribution of stats across a wider range of stats. Minimal or unnoticeable gains.
I'm not going to spend the time to build up a set like this; but kudos to the OP or yourself if you do. (: -
10-30-2013, 07:54 AMAppleGrocer
Honestly, I question the value of parry as a whole.
The only information I can find regarding parry rates is:
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=179/#Parry
This is old stuff, and might not be up to snuff, in fact I kind of know it isn't. I need to test the numbers on low levels of parry (shown in the graph), but there's no way I'm getting a static .076% chance to parry per point.
I have ~532 parry on my War iirc, and my parry rate sits somewhere around 20% from my own little testing runs. So my best guess, pending verification of the low levels of parry numbers, is that there's either a huge drop off from the benefits gained per point of parry after ~300 points, or its worth almost nothing.
The scaling of Dex in relation to parry can only be worse... -
10-30-2013, 08:34 AMLadon
I wish people would understand that damage avoidance is pointless for a tank unless it is 100%.
If tank 1 has 7000 HP and a 30% avoidance rate, they are still by far the better tank than a tank with a 60% avoidance rate and 5000 HP. You simply don't tank stuff on probability.
Damage avoidance is a bonus but should never be considered over more HP. -
10-30-2013, 08:55 AMthemitey1
Here you go:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zation-for-WAR.
For your reading pleasure, plus additional links to his resources. -
10-30-2013, 09:15 AMCianaIezuborn
In Valk's old testing STR gains to parry/block reduction jumps in tiers, and each tier is 1% reduction. Lets assume that holds true for DEXs effect on parry/block chance also. Let's then assume that going from the Allagan ring to a crafted ring would net you a jump in BOTH STR and DEX tier. Furthermore, lets assume that your block/parry rate and reduction are all currently at 25%. I'm making this as best case scenario as I possibly can, and these parry/block numbers are likely high. I have not done any testing on these rates, I'm just doing some theory crunching.
Note that I am leaving out the mitigation(def/shield oath) portion as this will multiply both numbers by the same amount and I'm trying to pull the percentage difference which will not effect the calculations. This is to slightly simplify the numbers.
Some quick dirty numbers:
Sunseeker full i90 paladin with Allagan ring
HP: 7005
Parry: 25%/25%
Parry Reduction: 6.25%
Block: 25%/25%
Block Reduction: 6.25%
Total Reduction: 12.11%
EHP: 7005
AHP: 7970.13
VS
Sunseeker full i90 paladin with Crafted Ring
HP: 6930
Parry: 26%/26%
Parry Reduction: 6.76%
Block: 26%/26%
Block Reduction: 6.76%
Total Reduction: 13.06%
EHP: 6930
AHP: 7971
EHP difference: Allagan +1.08%
AHP difference: Crafted +0.015%
I may have overestimated the Allagan HP by a slight bit due to not being completely sure how the +3% group bonus works, however the fact of the matter is this:
EHP is more important than AHP. For any EHP increase to be sacrificed for AHP increase, the AHP increase must be vastly superior. On the scale of 5 to 10 times as much to even be entertained, and then only when EHP is deemed reasonably sufficient to the highest possible burst encounter. Given these numbers, that I believe are inflated towards Avoidance, I don't see there being any reasonable use for STR/DEX rings in the near future as an upgrade for tanking. -
10-30-2013, 10:43 AMGamemakoI never said they were large. I really don't know what you're on about here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
You clearly have not tested this at all. If you look at what meager data exists, Dexterity would be worth more than Parry. We do not have anything resembling a working formula at this time, but it's clear that "+0.01 to that there Parry Rating" is off by at least two orders of magnitude. Ninjiitsu's testing found an increase of 3.5% parry chance (relative 14.1% increase in parrying rate) by adding 30 points into dexterity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
None of the data is all that good, but for what's there, DEX adds a non-trivial portion to parry chance. We just don't really know how it works.
That is incorrect. A tank who can withstand all hits in the game is ineffective if it cannot reduce healing load -- healers just go OOM and your party dies. eHP is not the end-all-be-all, it's just one facet of tanking. You must have aggro generation, burst eHP, and mitigation all if you are to be an effective tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
That is not a valid assumption. It would be best to consider a possible build and see if reaching a parry strength tier is feasible, then consider a possible parry rate increase as a result. The real problem here is figuring out how much VIT is really needed, and however much you can avoid using can go into other stats. If you need all the VIT to withstand a hit, then it's a bit of a meaningless question.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
AHP is not a valid metric. It would be something like Schrödinger's cat -- somewhere, that tank is both dead and alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
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10-30-2013, 12:49 PMCianaIezubornFor my purposes, this is more than a valid assumption. Unless someone proves that avoidance effects from str/dex are MUCH higher than the values I assumed, then I'm not interested in str/dex stacking. Once ilvl100 gear is released, it'll need to be examined again, however until then unless someones measurements cause me to make orders of magnitude changes to my assumptions, I'm good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
This is equivalent to building a bullet proof vest out of paper. If I can see that one sheet of paper only absorbs a 1/100,000 of a bullets impact, then I can assume a 100 page book isn't going to stop a bullet. Until someone proves that I'm off by a factor of 1000 I'm not going to try and stop a bullet with a notebook.
I agree, it's not a valid metric when compared with EHp. That's why it needs to be ORDERS of magnitude greater than EHp (which is 100% valid and 100% reliable) for it to ever be considered over EHp. I'm not sure what we're arguing here. I said A > B, then you said B is a half dead cat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
Who has the DeathStar >> Sith lord>> Storm trooper picture thingy? -
10-30-2013, 01:08 PMMaqaqa
Check this thread.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zation-for-WAR.
Its not worth to trade VIT for DEX, but this doesnt make DEX useless, and if you can afford HQ pentamelded i70 accessories you wont have to chose between STR VIT and DEX. -
10-30-2013, 02:47 PMTaemekIt reminds me of the merry-go-round at the circus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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10-31-2013, 02:15 AMFaeron
Looks like I will continue my philo grind.
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10-31-2013, 03:39 AMJahaudantJust so you know, a Seeker of the Sun in full i90 has 6796 HP, or 6724 with 1 crafted/DL ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
PLD Equipment Planner -
10-31-2013, 05:00 AMDhexWho's spread sheet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahaudant
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10-31-2013, 05:08 AMCoramac
If you could design your own gear, then Dex would be a very important stat. For parry, it seems to have an initial threshold of 217-219 if I recall correctly and likely adds 1% to parry for every 14.5 to 27 (don't remember the upper limit but somewhere in that vicinity. Ninjiitsu did some testing and said he was going to do more testing, but I suspect he's taken a temporary or permanent leave of absence and won't be posting more data. We needed a few more data points for Dex to be able to determine the "walls."
Regardless, it isn't a very important stat to worry about unless better crafting gear is introduced or they allow melding to droppable gear. -
10-31-2013, 09:44 PMCianaIezubornThanks! I wasn't flooring the VIT bonus from party before multiplying it by the HP Coefficient. I added a floor to the bonus VIT and it matches yours now at 6999 in party. I'm also assuming that the party VIT bonus is on unbuffed VIT and doesn't include VIT from food, can you confirm that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahaudant
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10-31-2013, 10:23 PMVortokIt depends on the content and how hard it hits, really. If that 5k HP tank has enough health for the healers to keep him up/not get bursted down when he gets unlucky and doesn't dodge for a string of attacks then overall that vastly higher dodge rate will make him an easier tank to heal. If he's in danger of being bursted down, then sure, stack more health. Health is just a safety cushion to give your healers time to react. Once you have enough (varies from player to player, healer to healer, etc.), stacking more health rather than mitigation is just making your character a mana sponge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
That said, the ability to increase mitigation with stats seems very... light, in this game. -
10-31-2013, 11:03 PMJahaudantYeah, the party bonus effects the VIT gained from food. So your HQ toast, for example, is giving 14*1.03 VIT in a party.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn