Can we limit people who didnt reach end game from posting feedback about end game?

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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So people should only have an opinion about the jobs they play once they reach the 'pinnacle' of the game. Got it.

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Originally Posted by ShindaUsagi

So people should only have an opinion about the jobs they play once they reach the 'pinnacle' of the game. Got it.

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When you have for example level 37 warriors saying "the class is fine, just learn to play! I have no problems with tanking dungeons right now and I don't see why it would be a problem in the future since I'm pro and stuff" then yes, their opinions are, frankly, invalid.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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Yeah, but bard is totally OP for pretty much all endgame content, especially coil. With as much support utility it has, it is pretty ridiculous that it puts out so much damage. A very slight nerf would only bring it more in line with other classes as far as being useful goes.

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Originally Posted by Vantwan

When you have for example level 37 warriors saying "the class is fine, just learn to play! I have no problems with tanking dungeons right now and I don't see why it would be a problem in the future since I'm pro and stuff" then yes, their opinions are, frankly, invalid.

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Yep, that kills me every time. It's like saying, "I have zero experience with this Job in endgame (I may not even have it leveled), but my opinion holds the same weight!". It kills me.

Bard is overpowered because it can do full damage while dodging/moving and staying at range, not because it does the most damage in target dummy situations. It needs cast times added on some of it's attacks, or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds so it has to stand still to do full damage, like every other class in the game.

To OP:

It will not happen because that would be to great.

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Originally Posted by Marleytiva

Yep, that kills me every time. It's like saying, "I have zero experience with this Job in endgame (I may not even have it leveled), but my opinion holds the same weight!". It kills me.

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Most of the people I see saying warrior is fine as-is are paladins.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Most of the people I see saying warrior is fine as-is are paladins.

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I don't even have warrior leveled but I can tell that they need some lovin' just from what I've been seeing in coil.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Bard is overpowered because it can do full damage while dodging/moving and staying at range, not because it does the most damage in target dummy situations. It needs cast times added on some of it's attacks, or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds so it has to stand still to do full damage, like every other class in the game.

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If being able to move and do full DPS is the issue, why not just reduce the BRDs damage for what ever skills they use while moving? Or would that not satisfy people?

Rooting in place would be terrible, even casters can walk and cancel their cast if they know they're bound to be in a rough spot if they stand where they are. Cast times are out of question, the entire kit would need an overhaul to fulfill that adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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mmo thought police come to ARR.......

OP - whereas of course SE should listen to you and follow all your opinions.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

mmo thought police come to ARR.......

OP - whereas of course SE should listen to you and follow all your opinions.

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There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but wouldn't you want to have an educated one before voicing it?

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

lol, professor poster has spoken. Go judge all the posts on here, it'll keep you quiet.

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That's one spectacular way to miss the point.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Seriously, people who didnt even touch coil yet qqing about how the game should be, namely Bard balance. They have limited understanding while being too vocal which force SE to blindly follow. It is like asking children to solve the recession/money debt crisis. You have a lot of reply but 99.99% are noise and useless.

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Sorta agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Marleytiva

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but wouldn't you want to have an educated one before voicing it?

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lol, professor poster has spoken. Go judge all the posts on here, it'll keep you quiet.

please post a link or quote of someone who has posted feedback that is specifically about endgame by someone who has not reached endgame and is not a "I would like this added to" because those are wish list posts like people wanting tombs to be dropped in more than one or two locations posted in threads.

And here, I've been leveling my gathering and crafting to surpass my WHM. I better not post, since DoH/L don't count as end game. Or maybe I should post just in case I never decide to do Coil.
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So is this thread about class balance, or that people that haven't done (or have no desire to do) Coil should not be allowed to ever post on the forums (even about the leveling system, not just the end)?
Misleading title is misleading.

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Originally Posted by Vantwan

I don't even have warrior leveled but I can tell that they need some lovin' just from what I've been seeing in coil.

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You are a good man.

Anyone that thinks BRD needs to be rooted whilst attacking, don't understand the game at all.

lower the damage, but don't hurt BRDs mobility.

i dont mind beeing nerfed as BARD, in general way it will just means nerf for melee class. who do you think will be there for silence your boss spells ?Bards that dont like this class fo his gameplay will just reroll for BLM o SMR that means less bards and that will lead that melee need to do this boring job :) = less dps for them.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Bard is overpowered because it can do full damage while dodging/moving and staying at range, not because it does the most damage in target dummy situations. It needs cast times added on some of it's attacks, or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds so it has to stand still to do full damage, like every other class in the game.

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It's only overpowered in the sense that it's the easiest class to reach it's max and stay there. Other classes need more intimate knowledge of an encounter to maximize their output so it takes longer to start up.

http://fightanvidya.com/img/F/src/133940903994.png

^ Different game, same concept.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

It's only overpowered in the sense that it's the easiest class to reach it's max and stay there. Other classes need more intimate knowledge of an encounter to maximize their output so it takes longer to start up.

http://fightanvidya.com/img/F/src/133940903994.png

^ Different game, same concept.

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If by intimate knowledge you mean "Dodge AOE markers, continue rotation" compared to "Sometimes dodge AOE markers, and continue rotation" then sure.

Melee DPS make out that being in melee range suddenly makes encounters much more difficult, when this is not the case.

Can we limit ppl who start QQ threads like this one?

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

If by intimate knowledge you mean "Dodge AOE markers, continue rotation" compared to "Sometimes dodge AOE markers, and continue rotation" then sure.

Melee DPS make out that being in melee range suddenly makes encounters much more difficult, when this is not the case.

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You do realize that when melee aren't in melee range they aren't meleeing, right?

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Originally Posted by MachammondtheXXXII

You do realize that when melee aren't in melee range they aren't meleeing, right?

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You do realise that Melee DPS have things they can do outside of melee range, right? Let's not forget the abilities to close the distance after either.

you can't stop someone from posting anything but you can stop yourself from reacting to it.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Bard is overpowered because it can do full damage while dodging/moving and staying at range, not because it does the most damage in target dummy situations. It needs cast times added on some of it's attacks, or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds so it has to stand still to do full damage, like every other class in the game.

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Dragoon has no cast timers, Monk has no cast timers, by that logic every class will need a cast time which isn't fun at all. Bards aren't meant to be in the fight they should be at the backline fighting from far with very high mobility.
Instead of throwing cast timers on everything and messing it up they need to raise some TP costs and lower some damage. This will make people think "Okay I cant spam my abilities anymore without consequence".

All melee DPS have an ability to jump to a target, people should be using this as soon as they dodge AoE.

Can we limit people who haven't levelled a gathering class from QQ about how boring it is and that the changes should've be made?

No? Okay. Same should apply here.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

You do realise that Melee DPS have things they can do outside of melee range, right? Let's not forget the abilities to close the distance after either.

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Clearly, they just left melee range for no reason whatsoever. Y'know, got bored and wandered off. Closing the distance would be putting them back in melee range, strangely enough.

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Originally Posted by MachammondtheXXXII

Clearly, they just left melee range for no reason whatsoever. Y'know, got bored and wandered off. Closing the distance would be putting them back in melee range, strangely enough.

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You didn't understand what I said at all.

I never claimed that "They just left melee range for no reason whatsoever".

It helps when you read the posts you're quoting, Y'know. :)

I claimed that there was things they could do outside of melee range.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

You didn't understand what I said at all.

I never claimed that "They just left melee range for no reason whatsoever".

It helps when you read the posts your quoting, Y'know. :)

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I understood exactly what you said. You missed my original point. That being that melee can't do their maximum DPS while not engaged, while BRD can always do theirs. It's not about difficulty, its about doing anything effective.

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Originally Posted by MachammondtheXXXII

I understood exactly what you said. You missed my original point. That being that melee can't do their maximum DPS while not engaged, while BRD can always do theirs. It's not about difficulty, its about doing anything effective.

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You do realize that when melee aren't in melee range they aren't meleeing, right?

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How in any way, does this pertain to: "They can't do their maximum DPS while not engaged, while BRD can always do theirs."

You say that they're not meleeing if they're not in melee range, I retort with the fact that there are things they can do outside of melee range. I never spoke about efficiency.

My original point pertained to the difficulty of the job, in reply to the Street fighter analogy.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

You do realise that Melee DPS have things they can do outside of melee range, right? Let's not forget the abilities to close the distance after either.

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Um....I have absolutely nothing I can do outside of melee range as a monk. Don't spread misinformation. Gap closer, I do have. It's on a 1.5min cd. There are more aoe melee to dodge, but I don't think it's a big deal.

Melee isn't harder just because they're in melee. The melee classes are harder because they have some more to dodge AND they have a combo systems that have to adapt when you move too much. It's compounded by positional requirements for abilities, since bosses usually turn to do their aoes.
This isn't a complaint though. I don't care if range has an easier timer. But there is more involved than "dodge and continue rotation".

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

How in any way, does this pertain to: "They can't do their maximum DPS while not engaged, while BRD can always do theirs."

You say that they're not meleeing if they're not in melee range, I retort with the fact that there are things they can do outside of melee range. I never spoke about efficiency.

My original point pertained to the difficulty of the job, in reply to the Street fighter analogy.

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1) You're still wrong about monks having any range abilities (besides the gap closer) whatsoever.
2) The analogy works (though it's obviously exaggerated) if only because melee classes have more involved in their rotations than range. Not just because they're in melee range.

You guys should chill down.
They never said they were going to nerf the bard to the ground nor did they say they were going to change its playstyle.
They said it was SLIGHTLY overpowered and then they will probably SLIGHTLY nerf it, nothing game changing or game breaking.

Wait for the patch note before you start crying... It will probably won't change much to bard's playstyle.

Imo what is OP on bard is not mobility but cross-skills. They have hawk eye and raging strike as archer already. Yet they get another +20% damage cross-skill.. Bard wasn't supposed to be a Burst class in the first place but it actually burst more than many other classes due to the additions of all those burst skills.

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Originally Posted by Flionheart

How in any way, does this pertain to: "They can't do their maximum DPS while not engaged, while BRD can always do theirs."

You say that they're not meleeing if they're not in melee range, I retort with the fact that there are things they can do outside of melee range. I never spoke about efficiency.

My original point pertained to the difficulty of the job, in reply to the Street fighter analogy.

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I get that. The point is when melee is not in melee range, the difficulty is zero, cause they aren't doing anything. When back in range, they are doing their jobs.

Outside of melee a DRG can toss a spear, using up a lot of TP and not getting much damage in return.

What ARE the things they should be doing outside of melee range?

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Originally Posted by Louro999

You guys should chill down.
They never said they were going to nerf the bard to the ground nor did they say they were going to change its playstyle.
They said it was SLIGHTLY overpowered and then they will probably SLIGHTLY nerf it, nothing game changing or game breaking.

Wait for the patch note before you start crying... It will probably won't change much to bard's playstyle.

Imo what is OP on bard is not mobility but cross-skills. They have hawk eye and raging strike as archer already. Yet they get another +20% damage cross-skill.. Bard wasn't supposed to be a Burst class in the first place but it actually burst more than many other classes due to the additions of all those burst skills.

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The only problem is "slightly" means a lot to them. They aren't going to take the damage down by 10 points, more like 200. Nerf is never a good word, cause there hasn't been an mmo to use the word nerf slightly

I don't mind extra cool downs on hawks eye or raging strike, or they cancel each other out. But more then likely that will not happen. Maybe other mmos have jaded me and they might do a good job. I just wouldn't hold breath.

In my opinion, SE just need to make BRD a full support class, instead of this hybrid crap and then give us a pure ranged DPS class (Musketeer please!).

Lower BRD's damage, sure. But give it more support tools.
Make it able to change ammo type (I know, ammo have been removed, but make it an self-buff). Each ammo type gives a different kind of debuff. Blind, slow, gravity, increased dot duration/dmg, lower defense, lower attack power and so on. TONS of options.
Or maybe a self-buff, that lets bard recover MP per shot, so we can keep our songs up longer. And while they are at it, give us some more usefull songs. Again, there are tons of options.

Sure, people might go "But other jobs can do theese debuffs too!". Well yes. But this way, the Support job can support with things, so the other DPS jobs dont have to and can focus 100% on DPS.

Yeah, this is all my wishfull dreams.


EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot this... SE could actually add cast time on certain abillities for BRD. Just look at SWTOR's Imperial Sniper. It have cast time on several of the abillities. Been a while since I last played it, so cant remember them all. But if they add cast times, then I think they actually need to buff the potency at the same time... aaah balancing classes is such an evil circle.

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Originally Posted by Kanash

In my opinion, SE just need to make BRD a full support class, instead of this hybrid crap and then give us a pure ranged DPS class (Musketeer please!).

Lower BRD's damage, sure. But give it more support tools.
Make it able to change ammo type (I know, ammo have been removed, but make it an self-buff). Each ammo type gives a different kind of debuff. Blind, slow, gravity, increased dot duration/dmg, lower defense, lower attack power and so on. TONS of options.
Or maybe a self-buff, that lets bard recover MP per shot, so we can keep our songs up longer.
But this way, the Support job can support with things, so the other DPS jobs dont have to and can focus 100% on DPS.

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Not trying to troll u or be rude in anyway, but where do u put Bard in the 4 man speedrunning content that has a way to big impact on the game atm, in 8 man or more content i see how ur wishes can work. But atm ur wishes will crush bard to useless. Or did i missunderstand ur post?

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Originally Posted by Louro999

You guys should chill down.

[snip] Wait for the patch note before you start crying... [snip]

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Yep, Yoshi in yesterday's Q&A talked mostly housing (and since it is FC-only housing with no storage my attention quickly wandered), but he did say: 1) Bards would be 'slightly' nerfed, 2) melee classes would be buffed as their effective dps is currently less than ranged given the amount of time they need to spend dodging and repositioning, and 3) Warriors would get 7 types of buffs, but Yoshi only mentioned two of them (improved stun/interrupt and enhanced heals, without going into any detail on whether it is enhanced self heals or enhanced incoming heals or maybe both).

That's about all we know currently.

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Originally Posted by Phai

Not trying to troll u or be rude in anyway, but where do u put Bard in the 4 man speedrunning content that has a way to big impact on the game atm, in 8 man or more content i see how ur wishes can work. But atm ur wishes will crush bard to useless. Or did i missunderstand ur post?

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Aaah the speedrun thing. Well, going by SE's mysterious mind, speedrunning content were never how they imagined things. But yes, right now that would make BRD pretty useless for speedrun groups.
But I'm not thinking that SE should lower BRD's damage to nothing, for more support.
Its a tricky one to balance ofcourse. I guess theres an option for stances. Not sure how well that would go with the community.

Honestly thu, SE will find ways to limit speedruns. And the only reason people are doing them now, is due to the limited amount of dungeons people can farm for tokens.
Eventually, this token farming will slow down. Once crystal tower comes out, people will probably go into that with AK gear, and just skip DL if possible.
If the DF ilvl requirements are not too high ofcourse.

They could consider making all dungeon's way harder, and the grp into 5 mans, that would open for support class :) and maybe even get the wait time on DF down!?
Know it wont happend couse they said they will keep 4 man instances and i asume they have better things and more important things to attend to!