Please nerf Holy.

If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better WHM is compared to SCH.

SCH needs a decent direct damage AoE. SCH DPS is far too DoT heavy, meaning you can't dance in-and-out of Cleric Stance.

What they need to do is simply turn Holy into a DoT.

I um.... don't even know how you can say this. SCH can do a lot of dps with your pet healing if you know what you are doing. And the AOE in question is gonna OOM you if you spam it. It is not OP at all.

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

I um.... don't even know how you can say this. SCH can do a lot of dps with your pet healing if you know what you are doing. And the AOE in question is gonna OOM you if you spam it. It is not OP at all.

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All I can say is you've probably never speedrunned Wanderer's otherwise you'd appreciate the difference.

The main issue here is not being able to dance in and out of Cleric Stance and the massive set up time for a SCH DPS.

All they need to do is change Holy into a DoT.

Actually, if you put up cleric stance and use all your DoTs then turn cleric stance off, those DoTs remain with the same potency from when you had it on.

So just turn cleric stance on, DoT them up, and turn it off.

Never really had an issue.

Swiftcast -> Shadow Flare
Rouse fairy if needed
Cast DoTs then Bane
Miasma II if you feel like it

Don't even need to drop Cleric Stance since your fairy can do the job pretty easily and Lustrate is based on max HP.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

Actually, if you put up cleric stance and use all your DoTs then turn cleric stance off, those DoTs remain with the same potency from when you had it on.

So just turn cleric stance on, DoT them up, and turn it off.

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I am sure I checked this before and DoTs were retroactive with buffs, but I shall go check again.

I just checked, apparently DoTs aren't retroactive with buffs, which is good, however I still have an issue with the fact that Holy requires no greater set up and stuns the target.

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Originally Posted by Espon

Never really had an issue.

Swiftcast -> Shadow Flare
Rouse fairy if needed
Cast DoTs then Bane
Miasma II if you feel like it

Don't even need to drop Cleric Stance since your fairy can do the job pretty easily and Lustrate is based on max HP.

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Not much DPS and again, if you don't have to drop Cleric Stance, your Tank isn't taking much damage.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I am sure I checked this before and DoTs were retroactive with buffs, but I shall go check again.

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The potency applies to what your stats are at the initial time it's cast, never during. I tested it mostly with Regen. If I cast Regen, then use Cleric Stance, it still ticks for the same general number. But heavily decreases if I cast it with Cleric Stance already on.

Same goes with defensive buffs. If you receive a DoT, THEN use a defense buff, there's absolutely no damage mitigation versus the DoT.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

The potency applies to what your stats are at the initial time it's cast, never during. I tested it mostly with Regen. If I cast Regen, then use Cleric Stance, it still ticks for the same general number. But heavily decreases if I cast it with Cleric Stance already on.

Same goes with defensive buffs. If you receive a DoT, THEN use a defense buff, there's absolutely no damage mitigation versus the DoT.

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I just checked, you are correct.

However my main issue is that, while casting Bio/BioII/Miasma/Shadow Flare + Bane takes 10s ~ a WHM can weave in and out and cast Holy when needed and it even acts as a defensive CD with the stun.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I just checked, you are correct.

However my main issue is that, while casting Bio/BioII/Miasma/Shadow Flare + Bane takes 10s ~ a WHM can weave in and out and cast Holy when needed and it even acts as a defensive CD with the stun.

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But it's not THAT strong unless heavily spammed and Shroud of Saints afterwards to try and recover the MP cost. I only use it against the beetles and flan adds on the boss. Your strong point is that since you rely on DoTs for damage, you do far more consecutive damage versus a single target like a boss without wasting away MP spamming one ability like Holy or Stone II.

It's basically the same thing with Summoner vs Black Mage.

So uh, you'd nerf the only decent nuke WHMs have (and the only one that makes soloing bearable) just because people who ridiculously overgear an entry-level dungeon can use it to farm that dungeon slightly faster?

Let me tell you what happens if I dance into cleric stance to 'spam dat holy' with a typical PUG tank against a pull of 3 mobs when the group is actually doing the dungeon in 'expected' gear (meaning i45 artifact gear and white weapon/jewelry). This is based off actual WP pugs I did as a new 50 a week or so ago when I dared use Holy on trash pulls (not in cleric stance because, again, I'm not overgeared and similarly-geared tanks can drop in the 5 seconds it takes for CS to be able to be toggled off).
- Stoneskin wears off the tank in approximately 0.5 seconds after the last holy stun wears off and the mobs become stun-immune.
- I rip aggro off the tank from at least one of the mobs (usually both) after the second holy. The aggro lead is so substantial that even blowing my Shroud cooldown will leave me with red aggro.
- I'm near OOM (it's a "speedrun", so I didn't have a chance to regen mana from the previous pull) *and* in cleric stance with 2 mobs beating on me and one beating on the tank. The non-primary mobs aren't even close to halfway dead, so... yay?

Also, I've been reading a lot of similarly overgeared Scholars bragging they can run through AK completely in cleric stance except for some parts of boss fights (fairy takes care of 90% of all healing required, and Lustrate for the rest). Gee, guess it's time for a WHM to make a thread to nerf fairy healing when their master has CS on and/or make Lustrate affected by CS too -- except no, because that'd be childish. Like this thread.

e: btw, just try to use Holy more than once in a boss fight when the group doesn't overgear the instance, and see what happens. I recommend the last boss of Aurum Vale for this.

Also, following this train of thought, it's time to nerf:
- Repose. Scholars don't have this, and it completely removes damage from several mobs, which is more than any healing spell. This is completely unfair while playing through Brayflox, Stone Vigil, etc!
- Shroud of Saints. A WHM can just cast this and get a ton of mana back... and it dumps aggro as well? Easymode crap.
- Cure 3 proc. I mean, dude, it's a proc that makes a big AOE heal auto-crit! That's freaking awesome!

Possibly the silliest thread I've seen today.

I have way more fun as a SCH in WP than I do as a WHM.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

But it's not THAT strong unless heavily spammed and Shroud of Saints afterwards to try and recover the MP cost. I only use it against the beetles and flan adds on the boss. Your strong point is that since you rely on DoTs for damage, you do far more consecutive damage versus a single target like a boss without wasting away MP spamming one ability like Holy or Stone II.

It's basically the same thing with Summoner vs Black Mage.

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I can only assume you haven't speedrunned Wanderer's. Holy will be used in EVERY pack. A SCH wouldn't be able to pull this off simply due to the massive set up time and the lack of a AoE stun.

You wouldn't use Holy on a single target so I'm un-sure why you bring that up. The strong point you mention isn't even a strong point, MP inside boss fights isn't even an issue.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I can only assume you haven't speedrunned Wanderer's. Holy will be used in EVERY pack. A SCH wouldn't be able to pull this off simply due to the massive set up time and the lack of a AoE stun.

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That is not to be considered an issue. WHM and SCH use two different types of damage. Again, it's no different from Summoner vs Black Mage. Holy isn't going to be nerfed just because of that, nor are SCH going to be buffed just for the purpose of speed runs.

Arcanist is a DoT class. If you didn't want to use DoTs as your form of damage, you shouldn't have made one. There is nothing wrong with it.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

You wouldn't use Holy on a single target so I'm un-sure why you bring that up.

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Because I was naming YOUR strengths..... This is starting to sound petty.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

That is not to be considered an issue. WHM and SCH use two different types of damage. Again, it's no different from Summoner vs Black Mage. Holy isn't going to be nerfed just because of that, nor are SCH going to be buffed just for the purpose of speed runs.

Arcanist is a DoT class. If you didn't want to use DoTs as your form of damage, you shouldn't have made one. There is nothing wrong with it.



Because I was naming YOUR strengths..... This is starting to sound petty.

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Why you think having an abundance of MP is important I'll not ever know, you can only do so many things a second and having an infinite amount of MP won't help you. Also, why do you bring up SMN and BLM? It's not really a good comparison considering a SMN doesn't have to dance in and out of a DPS stance and do other things other than dpsing.

There's not much I can say to you. You don't seem to quite grasp the differences. As I've said, you look as if you haven't run Wanderer's speedrunned so you don't really have the experience to understand where I am coming from.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

Why you think having an abundance of MP is important I'll not ever know. Also, why do you bring up SMN and BLM? It's not really a good comparsion considering a SMN doesn't have to dance in and out of a DPS stance.

There's not much I can say to you. You don't seem to quite grasp the differences. As I've said, you look as if you haven't run Wanderer's speedrunned so you don't really have the experience to understand where I am coming from.

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And I don't have much to say to you because you're incredibly ignorant about mechanics.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

And I don't have much to say to you because you're incredibly ignorant about mechanics.

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All I can assume is you don't like to think things about your class are overpowered, that's fine.

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Originally Posted by rocheetbombe

And I don't have much to say to you because you're incredibly ignorant about mechanics.

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I'm fairly sure this is a troll thread. In which case, grats to the OP. :P

(If not, then respond to the last post on the previous page. kkthx)

So your whole post is based on a group of people who want to speed run - when the recent changes by SE (CM) where aimed at removing this. Sorry pal, just because a class has an ability that doesn't fit exactly into to your play style doesn't mean it gets changed.
This is just plain ridiculous - like your original post and all your subsequent waffle.
Working as intended - close thread.

Let me answer the title of this thread.

It won't take long....

/takes a deep breath...

NO!!!

Next!

They should nerf all AoEs in the game and turn them into DoTs because my monk sucks in a particular strategy used to complete one dungeon in the game.

Great logic, OP.

No thanks. Sch is great dps, while whm goes oom with holy. Learn to play SCH before calling for nerfs. I prefer to run WP on SCH. Whatever your rendition of "speed runs" are, they are not a basis to ask for nerfs. Probably not even very fast with the way it sounds classes are being played....

Alright. I'm no math wizard, but let's give this a try. Feel free to dispute my calculations if I messed up anywhere.

Holy, 240 potency, 532 mana cost, 3 second base cast (or identical to DoT tick frequency)

Now let's look at spreadable DoTs for Scholars. All DoTs are either instant or have a cast time that matches the GCD, save for Shadow Flare.
Bio II has 35 potency (total 350 over 30 sec) and a mana cost of 186
Bio has 40 potency (total 240 over 18 sec) and a mana cost of 106
Miasma has 35 potency (total 280 over 24 sec, initial damage irrelevant for DoT spread) and a mana cost of 133
Miasma II has an initial 20 potency, 10 DoT potency (total 50 over 15 sec) and a mana cost of 186
Shadow Flare has 25 potency (total 250 potency over 30 sec) and a mana cost of 212

So, the final showdown! Let's assume both healers DPS over 30 seconds against a trash pack of 3 Cactuar, because screw Cactuar.

White Mage is fairly simple. They'll cause damage equal to 240*3 potency every 3 seconds, ending up in 7'200 potency over 30 seconds by consuming 5'320 mana.

Scholars are slightly more complicated, seeing as some DoTs will lose ticks. Let's assume we cast our spells in this order for minimum waste: Shadow Flare > Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Bane > Miasma II. Let's also ignore the fact that the DoT ticks rely on the server timing, rather than time of application.
Because Shadow Flare has a 3 sec cast time and has no initial potency, it won't actually begin causing damage until 6 seconds have elapsed, bringing its total potency to 25*8, or 600 potency to three targets.
Bio II has a 2.5 sec cast time causes no initial damage either, being applied at 5.5 seconds making it cause damage once 8.5 seconds have elapsed. The first tick won't be spread due to the cast time of Miasma and the server requiring a split second to register Bio before Bane'ing. Thus 35 potency to one target until it's spread.
Miasma has causes 20 initial potency, is applied at 8 seconds and starts ticking at 11 seconds. This is just in time for it to be spread with Bane.
Bio has no initial potency, is applied at 8 seconds and starts ticking at 11 seconds due to its instant nature. We wait half a second and Bane all DoTs.
We also apply Miasma II at 10.5 seconds, causing 20 initial potency, and then the DoT starts ticking at 13.5 seconds. Miasma II can be refreshed at 25.5 seconds, squeezing in an extra tick and 20 initial potency.

Now, only Bio will work at full potency with 240*3, or 720 to 3 targets.
Miasma (22 sec) will "lose" 1 tick, making it do 35*7 potency, to 245*3, or 735 to 3 targets. Plus 20 initial damage for 755 to one enemy.
Bio II (24.5 sec) will "lose" 2 ticks overall, but because it was also applied first, one of its ticks will cause damage to only a single target. Then we have 35*7, to 245*3, or 735 potency to 3 targets, plus 35 for the lone tick, totalling 770 potency for the Bio II.
Miasma II (15 sec) will not lose any ticks, and can also be refreshed, but that means losing 4 ticks because of its refresh time. Thus, 20*3 at first for initial potency, 10*5 for total DoT damage, 50*3, or 150 on three targets. If refreshed, another 20*3 for initial potency and because we only have one tick, 10*3, or 30 for three targets. In total, two castings of Miasma II will lead to a total of 300 potency.

So, in total. 600 potency for Shadow Flare, 720 for Bio, 755 for Miasma, 770 potency for Bio II and 300 potency for Miasma II. This is a total of 3'145 potency over the same 30 seconds the White Mage was spamming Holy. This entire combo will cost the Scholar 1'009 mana and 1 Aetherflow charge.

To summarize, the White Mage causes 7'200 potency over 30 seconds for 5'260 mana.
The Scholar causes 3'145 potency over 30 seconds for 1'009 mana and 1 Aetherflow charge.

However, the results are a bit skewed here, because the White Mage was spending 30 seconds doing nothing but casting Holy, while these calculations are assuming that the Scholar has spent roughly 13 seconds setting up all DoTs, freeing up 6 GCDs to, I don't know, apply Aero to all targets, spam Ruin or actually heal the tank.

Finally, aren't you also the same guy who suggested to get rid of stacking Regen/Medica II mechanics? :p

Finally, aren't you also the same guy who suggested to get rid of stacking Regen/Medica II mechanics?

Of course he was, the link is below.........didn't have any luck with that one, so another ridiculous post against the whm.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...egen-Medica-II

No. It was a cool story though.

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

Finally, aren't you also the same guy who suggested to get rid of stacking Regen/Medica II mechanics?

Of course he was, the link is below.........didn't have any luck with that one, so another ridiculous post against the whm.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...egen-Medica-II

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Oh my lol... seems like a player who doesn't want nerfs because they are good for the game as a whole, but doesn't like that others might have toys he wants. And if he can't have them, then nobody should.

You have GOT to be joking... Holy is perfectly fine. SCH can actually do a TON of dmg.

I am now running dungeons with cleric stance on about 90% of the time as a SCH, and those mobs go down fast with an added DPS (me). The fairy can easily handle an ok geared tank, and I could just toss in a Lustrate if things get crazy.

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Originally Posted by Zetor

--snip--
- I'm near OOM (it's a "speedrun", so I didn't have a chance to regen mana from the previous pull) *and* in cleric stance with 2 mobs beating on me and one beating on the tank. The non-primary mobs aren't even close to halfway dead, so... yay?

--snip--

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What does OOM stand for? Sorry I actually don't know.

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

What does OOM stand for? Sorry I actually don't know.

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Out Of Mana

We have ramp up time sure but we can deal damage just as well (if not better in longer fights) than WHM. We have a faerie to heal for us while we are in Cleric Stance. WHMs don't have that and thus need to ability to switch in an out faster. It is called balance without making them both the exact same job. I have done plenty of speed runs on my SCH and it works just fine. Use Selene and just stay in Cleric Stance pretty much the whole time cause she can heal plenty by herself. The fix to being able to use her abilities while we cast makes this even more possible. You are simply silly and need to learn to play SCH better.

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Originally Posted by JonFarron

Out Of Mana

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Thank you for that info :D
nice siggy btw..

(Sarcasm)Ok....then nerf aetherflow for scholars....cause as a whm I think it's unfair I don't have unlimited mana.(off)

People really need to stop complaining because they don't have every ability other classes have.

Lol looks like whm is the next candidate to get nerf after brd

Oh boy, this thread again.

Give me insta shields, A pet that heals for me and infinite mana and then you can nerf my holy.

I honestly think, WHM's are better at "speed runs" because of flare, however just because we do "speed runs" which is outside of SE's intended way of playing doesn't mean we should nerf it. SCH's have a very good dps output, it just isn't as instant as flare, it takes a while and multiple gcd's to accomplish the same instant damage. For this reason, I'm currently leveling up my WHM for speed runs, after all full dl is the same for both classes.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

I read your post, there was nothing worth replying to.

You had no good points.

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Over 1200 views on this thread and only one person agreed with your view.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better WHM is compared to SCH.

SCH needs a decent direct damage AoE. SCH DPS is far too DoT heavy, meaning you can't dance in-and-out of Cleric Stance.

What they need to do is simply turn Holy into a DoT.

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What you've just typed is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having to read it. I award you no points, and may the Gods have mercy on your soul.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better WHM is compared to SCH.

SCH needs a decent direct damage AoE. SCH DPS is far too DoT heavy, meaning you can't dance in-and-out of Cleric Stance.

What they need to do is simply turn Holy into a DoT.

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If you've been running Wanderer's Palace as of late, you'll know how much better BLM is compared to SMN.

SMN needs a decent direct damage AoE. SMN DPS is far too DoT heavy.

What they need to do is simply turn Flare into a DoT.

@title
No.

One day people will learn to ask for a buff for their jobs instead of demanding nerf for other jobs because they feel they are underpowered...

Or maybe not :o

Actually Holy has a 1 second animation, so WHM do damage every 4 seconds, not 3