Monk rotation help

Hey guys!

I will apologize in advance if this question sounds stupid :p

Last night, I made some macros so I don't have to mash every ability in rotation.
One thing I came to conclude (maybe incorrectly) is that my rotation required only 3 abilities.

Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Snap Punch

These 3 abilities offer everything I need;

10% Damage Increase (Twin Snakes), Greased Lightning (Snap Punch), Blunt Resistance down (Dragon Kick).

I have another macro set for multiple mobs which is the same as above, but Snap Punch is replaced by Rockbreaker.

All of these abilities are best used flank side so there's no reason to move. Is there something I'm missing here? Is there another ability I SHOULD be using in the standard rotation?

You missed the 3 dots - Demolish, Fracture and Touch of Death. These are your hardest hitting abilities. Any monk rotation without them is suboptimal (except on trash i guess)

You missed bootshine which does require you to move to the back. For the best dps, you will alternate dragon kick and bootshine since dragon kick's debuff can last two cycles and bootshine is higher dps since it always crits from the back(once you are in opo opo form).

You should also use your off-gcd abilities as much as you can. These are Steel Peak and Howling Fist. If a boss requires specific stuns, do not use steel peak (such as ifrit or chimera).

This is all standard. Some people use impulse drive. That is a very TP draining, and I wouldn't consider it standard.

I assume you're not including cooldowns in terms of rotation, such as Blood for Blood and Internal Release? True Strike is worth using if you have a very high skill speed. Otherwise, I don't think it's a dps increase.

Bootshine is worth using in the normal rotation every other time. Dragon Kick lasts long enough that, barring any interruptions from the boss (titan's leap, garuda's teleport, etc.) or you having to stop your rotation to reapply Fracture or Touch of Death, you can use it without having the Dragon Kick debuff fall off before the next use.

Oh and yeah, Touch of Death and Demolish are worth using all the time, and Fracture is good when you have your buffs/debuff going (almost half of Fracture's damage is from the initial hit, which benefits from DKick, so make sure you have that up before using it.) Impulse Drive is a good skill to weave in from time to time, but its higher TP cost can become an issue in longer fights (Fracture has a similar issue, but to a lesser extent.)

Arm of the Destroyer is good for AoE situations when you can hit 4 targets or more and TP isn't an issue. One Ilm Punch is the only attack you never really use.

And of course, Steel Peak (if the boss doesn't need to be stunned, otherwise you'll screw with the diminishing returns timer) and Howling Fist (save for AoE if needed/helpful, like Garuda's plumes during the first part).

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your replies guys.

I didn't include any of the other abilities which aren't included in normal rotation.
I've been thinking about Bootshine for a while. I know it's a guaranteed critical hit, but it's only a 1 hit skill. With my current gear it hits for around 350. Dragon Kick on the other hand is a 2 hit skill so it has a chance of critting twice. I've managed to get around 700 damage using Dragon Kick. Even if only one of the hits crits, it still does more damage than Bootshine.

What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Feah

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your replies guys.

I didn't include any of the other abilities which aren't included in normal rotation.
I've been thinking about Bootshine for a while. I know it's a guaranteed critical hit, but it's only a 1 hit skill. With my current gear it hits for around 350. Dragon Kick on the other hand is a 2 hit skill so it has a chance of critting twice. I've managed to get around 700 damage using Dragon Kick. Even if only one of the hits crits, it still does more damage than Bootshine.

What do you guys think?

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Eh? Dragon Kick is only a single hit, just like Bootshine. What you probably saw was a DoT tick or Autoattack hit go off at nearly the exact same time as Dragon Kick, and mistook it for the same attack.

the animation of DK hit twice but the dmg is only a single hit.same for many skill that have a multiple hit animation but hit once.you should alternate between dk rotation then BS rotation.BS is better then DK but you need to keep DK debuff up.only use DK to put the debuff or if you cant go on the back position.

True strike is also higher damage (Something like 13 more potency accounting for crit) and 10 less tp than twin snake.

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Originally Posted by xyaie

True strike is also higher damage (Something like 13 more potency accounting for crit) and 10 less tp than twin snake.

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You also need a lot of skill speed for twin snakes not to fall off using true strike in the rotation.

Is it ever worth it to true strike?

Why don't I just bootshine, then double filler (or single filler, depending on SSpeed) with thrust, then go right back to TS -> SP?

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

You also need a lot of skill speed for twin snakes not to fall off using true strike in the rotation.

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oddly enough.. i never noticed it was 12 and not 15 like DK.
that being said with all but 4 pieces of darklight i have 450 skill speed and a 2.03s GCD when im rolling. my buff never actually goes away, although it should technically be gone for .09 seconds, perhaps too short for my client to notice? or not measurable with the naked eye. at worst, your comparing the 3rd twin snakes (140 potency) not getting the 10% damage buff (~14 potency you'd lose) vs true strike replacing the middle (~168.3 potency counting the crit buff and twin snakes buff, less the 154 you'd already have makes a 14.3 potency gain) would leave it still being a (given negligible) increase even if the buff fell off. The bigger increase would be the 10 less potency cost.


Now, this would be in a tank and spank fight with a boss who never turned and never left, which would make the 10 tp worth more (if a boss leaves often TP should never be a real problem). But the added difficulty would most likely not be worth the negligible increase in performance.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Is it ever worth it to true strike?

Why don't I just bootshine, then double filler (or single filler, depending on SSpeed) with thrust, then go right back to TS -> SP?

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I did a good bit of theorycrafting for a dragoon, but ive only been a 50 monk for like a week. I imagine someone has already done the math on this one? otherwise it shouldnt be too difficult. #1 thing i could see if that being a considerably high TP costing rotation

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Originally Posted by xyaie

i have 450 skill speed and a 2.03s GCD when im rolling.

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Aha, getting an exact # was on my to-do list. I had slightly overestimated the skill speed effect of GL. It seems to be:

Final GCD = (GCD - SS/1000) * (1 - GL_stacks * 0.05)

eh, got bored:

-middle of the fight. you want to get all of your buffs/debuffs up regardless, thats a given and will be the same no matter the rotation. napkin math i wont add in the % increase of greesed lightning, dragon kick or twin snakes as it will effect both of them equally and will stay up fully in both rotations with a 2.0s GCD
-Bootshine does 130 potecy with a garanteed chance to do 50% more damage, will count as 195
-True Strike does 150 potency and has a 5% extra chance to do 50% more damage, will count as 153.75

DK>TS>demo
BS>TrS>snap
DK>TS>snap
BS>TrS>demo
DK>TS>snap
BS>TrS>snap

This does 3116.25 potency over 36 seconds (18 GCDs) so 86.5625 potency per second
This spends 990 TP over 36 seconds, so 27.5 pps (worth note: you gain what, 60 TP every 3 and invigorate is 400 every 120, so 3.33, so 23.33 in 27.5 out or roughly 239.8 (almost 4m) without TP issues. if you used TS every time it would be another 1.67 tpps, 171.23s (less than 3m) before TP issues

doing ID (180 potency 80 TP) i'd imagine something like:
DK> TS> ID > demo
BS> TS> ID> snap

2 IDs would result in dragon kick falling. doing 1 results in it falling as well, but only not covering the next dragon kick ( i guess i'll count it as a 15 potency defect? technically its more)
Total potency is 1405-15=1390 over 16s = 86.875 pps
total TP spent is 480 over 16s = 30 pps
Thats a gain of .31pps (less than 1 potency per attack) and you will have TP issues in 149.93 seconds (burning out about 37.48% sooner)

edit: bootshine is overvalued a bit, with a 20% crit chance (im usually higher, but with bootshine and internal release averaged in) bootshine is only gaining 80% EXTRA crit chance, so 182 would be a better estimate of its potency worth (as it will be brought up to the 195, but everything else will go up too). this brings the first cycle down by 1.08 pps, making ID win out by 1.39 pps, but still heavy TP use, and not really seeing how it can keep up ToD and fracture

Weird, I have a 2.02 gcd and twin snakes falls off just as I'm hitting it again, lag on my end?

*doing true strikes rotation

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Weird, I have a 2.02 gcd and twin snakes falls off just as I'm hitting it again, lag on my end?

*doing true strikes rotation

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my debuff just replaces itself. it should fall off mathmatically though. more likely lag on my end/client not updating quickly enough showing it staying on for the .09s that it shouldnt be. numbers above are with a 2.0 GCD

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

You also need a lot of skill speed for twin snakes not to fall off using true strike in the rotation.

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Right, but True Strike is worth considering even with say 2.10 sec GCD (easy to reach).

In order not to have 0 DPS loss from Twin snakes buff you have to get to the point of 2 sec GCD, which is reached with a lot of SS indeed, in fact too much and it will be never reachable right now (unless you're a dumbass who gimps his det / crit) : 500 +. There is a stair curve for many stats and Skill Speed is worth having till 2.10 GCD in fact.

BUT, this is loss only FROM Twin snakes, if you want the total loss or the total gain, you have to delta with true strike while considering the number of cycles you don't have twin snake buff with GCD = X.

Considering my 2.10 GCD, which is easily reachable even with our BiS (full det / crit), there will be 0.10 cycle without the buff.

1 cycle = 2.10 * 3 [modulo gcd out of our cycle]
0.10 = 0.10 * 2.10 * 3 ~ 0.63 sec

H1 : DoTs are snapshotted during application only
H2 : attack speed is pretty damn low = 2.7 sec with R+1

1 GCD = 2.10
1) 2.10 / 0.63 = 3.33 => every 3 twin snakes loss, so every 6 cycle in fact (!), you'll lose one GCD at least with * 1.10 bonus damage which is for the best 180 potency * 0.10 = 18 potency loss every 5/6 cycles

2) 2.7 / 0.63 = 4.2 => every 4 twin snakes loss, so every 7/8 cycle in fact (!), you'll lose an AA with * 1.10 bonus damage. Which is in at best 150 * 0.10 potency = 15 potency loss every 7/8 cycle.

Meanwhile, you'll do :
1) 3 True strike which is compared to twin snakes (both are under previous twin snake buff) : (150 potency - 140 potency) * 3 = 30 potency damage bonus
2) Nothing

Finally, Twin snake versus True strike is :
- 18 + 15 = 33 potency bonus for Twin
- 30 potency bonus for True Strike

So yeah, Twin Snakes with this GCD (which is our Cap to go since 2.0 is not reachable) is better of 3 potency but don't forget it has a 5% crit bonus and with higher crit and IR activated, you'd rather do True Strike every 2 cycles UNLESS you used GCD for DoTs. In fact, when I'm using DoTs, I stick with flank rotation for the next cycle.

[From BC5 Monk]

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Aha, getting an exact # was on my to-do list. I had slightly overestimated the skill speed effect of GL. It seems to be:

Final GCD = (GCD - SS/1000) * (1 - GL_stacks * 0.05)

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Huh ? Don't understand your formula, you're telling that the part (GCD - SS / 1000) would be :
2.5 - say 450 SS / 1000 ?

That would be 2.0x already GCD without any stack of GL lol. Am I understanding right what you are telling ?

SS = bonus SS. So whatever your char sheet says minus 341. Guess I should have clarified that ^_^.

Running with a 2.08 GCD (50SS and GL3). 450 CRT (12.7%) baseline. No IR.

DK TW DM
BS TW SP
DK TW SP
BS TW DM
DK TW SP
BS TW SP

"Tight" rotation, no TD/Frac/whatever: 132.3pps

For reference, TW clips 2 GCDs every application (note: when I say clips I mean it clips the beginning of 2 GCDs, which means anywhere from 1.1 GCD to 2.0 GCD of clip).

Using TR on a tight rotation:

DK TW DM
BS TR SP
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

134.1pps

Notably, TW does not drop for itself. DK still clips itself. Actually, TW has about 0.9s of estimated safety.

Note: if you're dropping TW in this situation with GL3 up and SS=391 (341+50) or more, then you may be using macros with your main attacks. Don't. Also, you may be lagging. Otherwise press teh buttonz fasterer.

Anyways, TR versus TW-only is pretty straightforward for a tight rotation with Monk stance-only attacks (no TD, no FR). Use TR. More damage, less TP, winwin.

So, the real question is what happens when you inject these other GCDs.

Let's start with a baseline of throwing in TD, Fracture, and ID (note: this isn't an assessment of ID; it is only a baseline so we can assess TR).

DK TW DM TD
BS TW SP FR
DK TW SP ID
BS TW DM ID
DK TW SP FR
BS TW SP ID

This basically adds 1 injection per cycle. 137.8pps. 28.8 TP per sec.

Throwing in True Strike:

DK TW DM TD
BS TR SP FR
DK TW SP ID
BS TR DM ID
DK TW SP FR
BS TR SP ID

This drops the TW buff on 2 GCDs -- the DK and the following TW. Result: 136.7. It takes +250 SS to get the TW buff to cover the DK. Anyways, that's a small PPS hit but you gain some TP efficiency. 28.2 TP per sec.

With the TW-only plus injected GCDs in mind above, we can try removing the extraneous IDs:

DK TW DM TD
BS TW SP FR
DK TW SP
BS TW DM ID
DK TW SP FR
BS TW SP

This is 138.3pps @28.4 TPps. This is better than the extraneous ID scenario because it increases FR and TD uptime. If we drop the other extraneous ID, we can also swap the TW to a TR because it's now tight:

DK TW DM TD
BS TW SP FR
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP FR
BS TW SP

This is 138.6pps @27.9 TPps. Marginal DPS increase, but a better TP efficiency. At this step, one thing to note is that the TD uptime is only 70%, and the DM uptime is 80%.

I wonder what happens if we take out the second FR.

DK TW DM TD
BS TW SP FR
DK TW SP
BS TR DM
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

137.8pps @27.1 TPps. It looks like FR is too good for us unless we're running out of TP. But wait, didn't the TW overlap a lot? If we inject a GCD and it messes up TRs, we may as well stack all the injections:

DK TW DM TD FR
BS TW SP
DK TR SP
BS TW DM FR
DK TW SP
BS TR SP

139.1pps @27.7 TPps. It looks like stacking the aberration and then getting more TR on is better. Although the TD and DM uptimes in this approach are still low (at least for TD; DM's is ok).

Edit: This is not the end but it's all I have patience for right now ;-).

Just reached 50 myself but how about you open up standard with dk-ts-dm fracture(these two are very close in cd so found it very easy to always add fracture when I add dm) then switch to going behind the target and do bootshine and add impulse drive here then move to side and add twinsnakes and snap punch. I use touch of death the first time i put up the dots sicne then it lasts for 3 rotations and I redo it again. I've read alot of the rotations and still commign to terms with what's best aso.

You get the bootshine crit and a 180 potency damage from the back in the second rotation and then you can keep having twin snakes damage up if you skip true strike. This way you should be able to keep twin snakes up and greased lightnig and your dots at all times. You basically have one dot rotation and one straight high instant damage rotation which you switch between.
How does this sound?

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

SS = bonus SS. So whatever your char sheet says minus 341. Guess I should have clarified that ^_^.

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Ho ok, makes sense then ;).

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...Notably, TW does not drop for itself...

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Unless you're at 2 sec GCD with GL3 and in perfect conditions (lag etc.), it's mathematically impossible for TW not to fall off. Or may I misunderstood again what you said ? xD.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

Unless you're at 2 sec GCD with GL3 and in perfect conditions (lag etc.), it's mathematically impossible for TW not to fall off. Or may I misunderstood again what you said ? xD.

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Hmm ... I stated that I was using a 2.08s GCD (GL3 + 50SS).

Couple notes:

1. Lag should not be a factor for executing general attacks because the abilities are queued. It will only be a factor when the stance buff for the prior ability is so ridiculously lagged that you cannot execute a valid followup (you can't execute Twin Snakes because Dragon Kick's Raptor Form buff took >2 seconds to show up properly). That would be a pretty abnormal lag condition.

2. I have a debuff application delay built into my model because of the way abilities 'snapshot' buffs at the beginning of their cast and then apply debuffs/buffs later in the animation. This should be commonly seen by Monks with Greased Lightning buffs (you can begin casting SP/Demolish when GL has 0.1 seconds left, disappears during the SP animation, then re-applies at a full 3 stacks when SP "lands" -- in other words the GL buff applied by SP is based on the GL stacks that were present when you began casting SP).

In most cases, this application delay does not make much of a difference, but apparently the Twin Snakes timing is exceptionally tight. Without going into too much detail, basically if the Twin Snakes buff applies >0.5 seconds after TW starts to cast, then it should be up for the beginning of the next TW cast. If the TW buff applies <0.5 seconds after TW is cast, then it might not be up for the beginning of the next TW (assuming you're alternating TRs, and with the same 2.08s GCD assumption).

Overall I guess the tldr is that the timing is pretty tight at 50 skill speed, but possible. Needs more SS to be more reliable.