quote from botters, this is ridiculous! must stop!
"I meant dungeon teleport farming, I can solo some bosses by teleporting to an elevated position and take no dmg. I want a full party of people I can trust to go around dungeons and primals HM for some easy/fast wins. for example I can solo Garuda HM, but takes about 15 min plus only if everyone leaves. Wont do it in front of people. I have an idea of how to do Titan HM as well, but that requires a few more guys."
"Update: I have found a group of people whose doing this sort of thing. We currently have 7 members, so far trustworthy and had a blast running AK teleport earlier. (Please be mature/18+ / subtle use of hacks/ no previous suspensions related to using hacks/no teleport gathering ect.. ) If this is you and you're interested in joining our team, then leave me your IGN in my Inbox, we could use some variety of class functions for future coil runs..ect."
Sargatanas, bot Teleport farming !!
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10-16-2013, 12:23 PMolivergodSargatanas, bot Teleport farming !!
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10-16-2013, 12:42 PMVagrant-0
The problem isn't bots.
The problem is that SE doesn't seem to care about people using bots. Bots are not something new to SE, bots aren't something new to MMOs, and they've had well over 2 weeks to get a handle of things. Sure, RMT spam has declined slightly. But my my brief survey of botted areas it looks like nothing has changed. There are still half a dozen bots moving around between level 5 nodes. There are still bots camping farming locations (now with quicker respawn so they earn more). And there instances like this, where individuals are using similar exploits to breeze through dungeons and high challenge fights with ease.
It's discouraging to honest players, and erodes faith that the company running the game even cares. This should not STILL be an issue. -
10-16-2013, 11:10 PMSajomir*ahem*Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant-0
It is impossible to stop every bot. Expecting them to have done so in 2 weeks is ridiculous. There is a reason bots are common in every MMO. Real life police can't possibly prevent every crime; similarly, techies at a software company cannot stop every cheater.
Hell, aimbots in FPS games have been around forever, and they're still not gone. Must mean that Valve/Epic/id/insert-company-here is totally imcompetent, too, right? -
10-16-2013, 11:17 PMMaskedActually...It's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajomir
Assuming SE has a full back-end log, botting could be simply picked up with an algorithm.
It's the same way SOE dealt with MQ2...And did so within hours most of the time...If SOE can do something within a few hours, it's extremely possible for a company the size of SE to do something about it within the same time-frame.
The real issue here, however, is the lack of in-game support and/or support in general because, had the NA servers been staffed like Rift, current Aion, DAOC or WoW...There wouldn't be open botting/RMT.
At the moment, it's taking 2 weeks for ANY formal response to a NA issue where as most Japanese issues are solved within a day/matter of hours.
We need better service. With better service and an actual presence, 90% of the issues we currently have with RMT and "botting" would be solved on site. -
10-16-2013, 11:22 PMHanabira
Well teleport bots should be insanely easy to detect.. if someone goes to an altitude that is below or over the ground, they should be flagged, simple. If garuda's battlefield is at ground level, and someone in there is 10 yalms high, why does the server not report? your location has to be server side or else the mobs wouldn't react to it.
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10-16-2013, 11:29 PMjdnycThis right here. The NA/EU support is atrocious. They are overwhelmed and seriously understaffed based on how long they get back to you. It's either that or they have awful workers/managers not doing their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked
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10-16-2013, 11:41 PMXNihiliThere are bugs where people fall into the ground (I've read about one case somewhere here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanabira
If they have to test some more cases (like going faster than possible) every time for each characters on the server, it is going to increase the server load and we know SE has problem with server load. -
10-16-2013, 11:43 PMTupsiIf it's not impossible why is it that every MMO as of today have an issue with people using bots, hacks or other exploits?Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked
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10-16-2013, 11:45 PMHanabiraThats why i said flag and not insta ban. If someone gets caught off of the ground once, maybe its a bug, but if they are doing it all the time like they do, then its obvious. And that will not increase server load, do what ffxi did and send a ping when someone is traveling faster than normal speed without the proper buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by XNihili
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10-16-2013, 11:48 PMMaskedAnyone can BOT...I can point you to torrent sites where you can download them and go within the next 15 minutes...That's not the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
SOE, Rift, DAOC, WoW, even GW2, constantly monitor their servers for specific algorithms...Do some people get through? Sure...It's always possible...Look at MQ2.
The difference with those companies is customer service. If someone reported that issue, it is dealt with IMMEDIATELY, not 2 weeks later.
You can see this in WoW. Watch a bot-gatherer, report him...Sit afk for 2-3 hours, he's perma-banned...Then another one pops up doing the exact same thing is perma-banned because they noted the algorithm.
We have a lack of service so, this is allowed to fester and if it was dealt with immediately, it wouldn't be a big deal -- 2 weeks later is a big deal. -
10-17-2013, 12:06 AMXNihiliHow are you going to know if people are traveling faster than normal speed ? You have to compare the position every time and check with the timer to see if it's possible (and take account the lag that can screw the calculation). Doing it once is easy and fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanabira
Doing it every time for everybody sounds crazy to me. -
10-17-2013, 12:09 AML33K
i reported some1 telebotting on ditermite a few days ago. got a video but 1.2gb it too much for me to upload in youtube lol
tryin to be positive in every way but sounds liek teh MMO genre will die bcoz if these illegal acts continues -
10-17-2013, 12:15 AMCapita
Funny how everyone's somehow an expert who can solve all of SE's problems. Hey, if you're so good at it, why not get a job doing it?
WoW had botters that ran around an area for months before they were banned. They had those little hacker guys in Orgrimmar with like 15 level 1 toons that formed letters to advertise their gold selling websites. It was a daily occurrence.
GW2 has nonstop underground node gatherers who teleport between Orichalcum nodes. WvW had (and still has) a bunch of little douches teleporting past defenses and soloing castle bosses. Were they ever banned? Maybe. But surely not for the 3 months I spent there, watching the same people do the same thing.
I never played Rift, but I can pretty much guarantee the same thing there. Why? Because it's in literally every single MMO I've ever played (WoW, RO, FFXI, FFXIV, SW:TOR, GW, GW2, WAR, Aion, TERA, etc.). It's not an easy problem to solve, so you should stop pretending like it is. -
10-17-2013, 12:15 AMMaskedMost MMO's include it in their coding to detect abnormal movement above/beyond normal effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by XNihili
Aion was coded for an X/Y Axis since you could fly...So, abnormal movements were tracked and flagged for a person to later look at them...This was of course after the bot ban that blanket banned a couple thousand innocent users BUT, that being said at least they got their accounts back within a few hours.
The fundamental issue is SOE's lack of NA/EU CS. Cut the problem off when it starts - not a big deal. Wait 2-3 weeks to do anything, NOW it's a HUGE deal.
Think of it like cancer or a virus. Stop it early, 1 person is infected. Wait 2 weeks...Day-Z happens. -
10-17-2013, 12:18 AMMaskedWoW has botters because they own THOUSANDS of accounts...I believe Blizzard put out statistics to how many they were banning/day -- It's immense but, they can't do everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capita
GW2 is different...Much different. NCSoft does a bi-weekly purge and gets most of them but, GW2 is GW2 again, at least they're doing something.
Rift doesn't really actually having a botting problem. Gold spam yes, botting? No...Why? They deal with it instantly.
Once again, if I need CS in any of the above games, I get in game support within an hour or two. FFXIV? 2 weeks at best. See the discrepancy? -
10-17-2013, 12:27 AMNukocafe
With the recent patch they restricted to only creating 8 characters in 24 hours to prevent bots but.......who needs to create 8 characters in 24 hours. Seriously who? The restriction should have been 2 every 24 hours. They really need to be stricter with this to help stop at least the RMT bots (but at least I did notice I get a lot less tell spam from those now.)
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10-17-2013, 12:27 AMCapitaThe problem here is that your argument is all anecdotal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked
For example, I couldn't get a GM to ban a certain teleporting player in GW2, EVER, for 3 MONTHS. Whereas you're saying they get banned in 2 weeks. I spent all day in WvW on Jade Quarry. We were the most active WvW server for a very long time. We fought Sea of Sorrows and Blackgate for a good month, and that entire month had the same group of people teleport-hacking all over the place and stealing caps. What happened to the 2 weeks there? You're giving NCSoft a pass? For what? Being different? Wut?
Another example, I was mining in Thanalan when I saw a bot (stealthed, teleporting) mining in my area. I sent a report, and the guy disconnects in 15 minutes. Haven't seen him since.
See? Anecdotal is anecdotal. You can't make blanket statements based on your experience. SE has banned hundreds of people. They can't get all of them. No company can. Like I said, if it were that easy, the problem wouldn't exist in any game. I'm not defending their methods, and I certainly think they can do better, but you can't simply blame them for lack of CS while praising another company, when that other company isn't any better. Hell, Blizzard had the best CS of any company I've ever played with (literally <15 minutes for a GM to show up EVERY time I sent in a ticket), and they missed a LOT. -
10-17-2013, 12:31 AMSinthClaiming that SE doesn't care about bots when they ban them after they are reported is ridiculous. You have no evidence to back up your claim and you are doing a disservice to the community by claming that SE doesn't ban reported cheaters (if they are indeed cheating). I have reported 3 teleport gathering bots and all 3 were banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant-0
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10-17-2013, 12:34 AMParanoidHobo
They should give like, 1/5 of their forum moderation staff a GM character with ban powers and just turn them loose on the servers. There wouldn't be a single bot left within 24 hours.
Seriously though these forums get moderated impressively fast >_> I got reported for "Use of inappropriate or aggressive language." and was banned for ten days in less than 24 hours. I wasn't even mad, I was impressed at how fast it was. Whereas telebots, which are INCREDIBLY BLATANT CHEATING, that I reported multiple times were still there doin' their thing up to 2 weeks afterwards. Priorities people; 'TeH swARe werdz' < incredibly blatant cheating. -
10-17-2013, 12:34 AMMaskedI've actually worked on 3 MMO's <~ Senior Systems Administrator...However, my point relates more to the lack of presence that SE has as compared to the response of other companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capita
I was simply acknowledging that their CS is responsive. SE's CS is NOT responsive and when compared to other MMO's is simply, awful. At this point, that's not even an argument or a point of discussion, that's a cold-hard fact.
Combating a problem requires a presence. Not a 2 week delay in combating that presence. -
10-17-2013, 12:43 AMSinthQuote:
Originally Posted by Masked
As a SSA with experience in this area you of all people should know that a lot of the work is done behind the scenes with no external communication. Any external communication given is typically general/fluff and obfuscating of the actions taken, lest they be circumvented in the future. Overall, yes, SE plays their cards much closer to the chest than your average company, but then again, they typically provide higher quality products than your average company.
However, I will agree with you that SE CS is bad. It always has been. -
10-17-2013, 12:48 AMGemma
In all honesty I give up reporting these people. I thought it was doing some good when I reported a player on Sargatanas for botting and a GM actually contacted me to investigate. Yeah didn't do anything, that was almost 5 days ago and guess what, saw that person yesterday in limsa crafting away -_-
What's the point of me reporting these people if I still see them running around botting?
I use to be all for reporting these people but now, I'm not doing SEs job for them anymore, they need to ban these people.
If you're not going to play the game like the rest of us then go play a freakin single player game with game shark on so you can feel all badass. -
10-17-2013, 12:49 AMMaskedNot debating that in the slightest. It's all smoke and mirrors but, part of the illusion is a constant presence. SE doesn't have a presence or even the illusion of a presence at all...It's simply, non-existent. So the problem will continue to fester and grow because they lack the manpower to do anything about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinth
Disagree about HQ products as well...There are currently FTP MMO's on the market that offer a better product than SE's currently -- That's not saying I don't like/enjoy the game, that's saying there's severe room for improvement.
Look at the service discrepancy between NA and Japan...HUGE difference.
#SECSTHEREISNONE -
10-17-2013, 01:01 AMCapitaSE's lack of response has literally no correlation with them dealing with or not dealing with issues. In fact, SE has been one of the more open companies in terms of ARR when it comes to addressing user issues, except they do it on a wider scale instead of a personal basis. I could talk to an NCSoft GM all day, but will they get me any changes? Probably not. All you have to do is take a look at SE's updates to see that they're definitely taking feedback and implementing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked
Your argument is silly. Communication is not a requirement for them to do their job when it comes to banning bots and hackers. You really want them to confer to you every time they ban someone you've reported? No game company has ever done that for me. Not even an, "Ok we'll look into this player." Not Blizzard, not NCSoft, not Riot. Ok, maybe Riot (it was vague, but they emailed me saying they banned someone based on my judgment in the tribunal). But that's Riot. -
10-17-2013, 01:11 AMCrystalRainbow
If they waved my fee, gave me trusted reporter type access to log in to say 10 server I don't play on. I would log in for 1 hour once a week and report RMT these accounts would be locked out for 72 hour then reviewed.
3 false positives and you loss access.
You wave the fee for like 20 people and all servers are covered and RMT goes away. -
10-17-2013, 01:16 AMValcro1 is better than 2 in a mere 24 hour period. Nobody needs more than 1 except RMT. Hell most people don't even need more than 1 forever, as long as we can't use mules in this game. So why does RMT get 8 characters still to create per 24 hours? That sounds more like they are trying to keep RMT around and paying their measly 15 dollars per account before it's banned, than it does trying to shut RMT down for good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukocafe
If there was a 1 character per week or per month or whatever restriction in place, it would almost solve the RMT ad spam problem over night. I guarantee it. -
10-17-2013, 01:42 AMSinthThis solution still requires too much manpower on SE's end. Individual scrutiny/banning of RMT accounts will take thousands of hours. Every time an account is banned, a new one is created. What is needed is a more systemic solution. However, I do like your way of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalRainbow
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10-17-2013, 01:57 AMTiraelinaEvery game you're making excuses for has just as bad of a presence. Every game you listed also had and still has rampant botting and/or hacking problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked
This is after years, not barely 2 months. -
10-17-2013, 02:04 AMMaskedYou, once again, take my post out of context. I said maintaining a presence, that doesn't mean communicating. That means banning bots, monitoring chat algorithms and actually having decent CS with DECENT response times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capita
Say I chat with Trion right now, takes 5 minutes to have an agent and an in game response IMMEDIATELY. During peak time, 15 at the most. Everquest - Have an in-game response within 4 hours; Same with NCSoft and ANet. Over 3 hours for SE non-peak and 2 hours VIA telephone...That's not DECENT. 2 WEEKS for an in-game response...Decent? Nah.
Their effectiveness, while important, is not as important as to them actually being present in the game...Which, they're currently not.
We PAY $15/month - Every comparison I've made is a FTP game.
If our service doesn't at least equal theirs, what are we paying for? -
10-17-2013, 02:05 AMMeimeiHow about all their years of inaction, apathy and terrible customer service in FFXI that basically allowed the RMT to run unchecked for years, and completely destroy any semblance of stability the economy once had, before actually attempting to do anything about them? That "evidence" enough for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinth
Other MMOs actually deal with their problems on a prompt basis. Go try them and see how minimal the RMT/botter presence is if ya don't believe me.
They're repeating the same mistakes of old. No amount of white knighting can cover that up, kids.
They just don't care. -
10-17-2013, 02:17 AMBrutallyn
i read somewhere an explanation why they dont ban people instantly.
They keep them running for a while to be able to track down all the other accounts used by the RMTer.
so not just the bot farmer, but also the seller of set shards, and the bank char with the gil, and the advertisement accounts, and everything else.
They just can't see all those accounts from 1 bot.
Just takes time.
Kinda like shouting at the police for not arresting that kid with 1 small bag of coke, and not seeing that the police is already investigating the maffia family behind it .. -
10-17-2013, 02:18 AMSinthImplying I have only ever played SE MMOs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meimei
Implying SE is repeating the same mistakes (I don't see any NM loot drops).
Implying there is a single MMO out there with a gathering system that doesn't have botters
Implying white knighting when someone presents a bogus argument and I call them on it
Implying previous oversights account for current ones
Implying SE doesn't care about customer retention
Please provide a non-fallacious argument. Your "argument" lacks logic and is based solely in presumption and fallacy. -
10-17-2013, 01:56 PMVagrant-0White-knighting aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinth
I was actively reporting bots, and recognizing names of those bots I was reporting. I was also looking back at those areas where I reported those bots only to see the same bots sitting there continuing to gather. Outside Ul'dah I watched a bot go from level 14 to 36 on crystal shards. I later saw that same bot at another location at level 50, presumably being graduated from shards to other materials. It was obvious botting, reported several times by myself and countless others.
More recently I reported a stationary bot farming diremites. A day later, bot was still there farming, same character. Two days later, bot moved to karakuls. Reported 2 times (one for botting, another for using an exploit that prevents damage to equipment). 9 hours later the bot was still there and another report made. This bot was reported by several other people. That character is still likely there. You're on Lamia... Go see if there's still a level 50 summoner killing sheep that doesn't move near 30,30.
If SE is banning, they sure as heck take their time.
As for dungeon teleporting. You flat-out CANNOT count on players to report this and only flaunts the fact that some sort of automatic flagging system needs to be put in place to mark suspicious activity.
As for SE hiring... If they paid GMs, they need only contact me for a resume. Already pre-trained with 7+ years of moderating experience within expansive multilingual online communities and over a decade of experience between countless MMOs.