Graphics vs Aesthetics

Hi all.

I am a fan of Extra Credits on the Escapist Website. It is a show that talks about games and game design. This weeks episode was called "Graphics vs Aesthetics".

I recomend giving it a watch before reading more. But it got me thinking and I asked myself. Is one of the issues with FF-XIV atm, that there has been more focus in this MMO of Graphics over Aesthetics.

I think yes, for the reason that we dont have the feeling of world emersion at the current time though the game engine. It is a more techncially detailed world, but we dont feel part of the world.

So.. Discuss

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Hi all.

I am a fan of Extra Credits on theEscapist Website.

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This says it all.

Thank you for spotting that typo. its now sorted.
But at the same time you havn't expressed any opinion on the subject.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Thank you for spotting that typo. its now sorted.
But at the same time you havn't expressed any opinion on the subject.

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Yes.. Trolls tend to do that...

I think this game has great aesthetics, but looking at the videos on how the game was made, it seems they made it top priority when designing this game. All the characters, creatures, and equipment have incredible detail and it's easy to tell a lot of care went into them, but level design, the battle system and many other important parts of the actual game play seem to have taken a backseat and where thoroughly underdeveloped at the time of release.

The hugely important part of having actual things to do in the game seems to have been mostly ignored and they just filled it in with glorified dailies (our guildlieves). That's something that can't hold people over for too long. The repetitive nature and restricted structure of such elements make for dull game play. As for Behests, that's little more than giving parties an easier way to grind every 30 minutes.

The thing I miss most about XI, and the thing I was looking forward to when playing XIV, was the chance to progress through various challenges and roadblocks. Things like getting my chocobo and airship license, getting AF armor (though to be honest, I never got that far), and raising fame to open up other features in the game. It's hard to get a sense of advancement and accomplishment when the game is almost completely open to you from the beginning. And that leads me to my next problem.

The game lacks a sense of adventure. In XI, going from town to town for the fist time was kind of a big deal. Sneaking past monsters far more powerful than you, going through several areas with varied terrain and design. It was all very engaging. In this, all I have to do is take the slow boat from the town to the desert and it's just a hop, skip, and a jump to the next city. Also in XI, there was a crossroads for the towns, the Dunes, in XIV, the crossroads is basically Ul'Dah, another city, that automatically makes Ul'Dah the most populous city regardless of its importance to the storyline.
Moving from Ul'Dah to Gridania is also very jarring. Going from a Western American style desert to a deep, lush and twisted jungle is not good for aesthetics. The jungle itself, is far too grid like. It may have been easier for design, but it takes us out of the game. Even the sharply angled paths in XI where not so startling.

All in all, the designs of the characters and objects are superb, but the world and interactivity need a lot of work. Keep on trucking Yoshi, I know you can do it!

Example of taking marginal graphical power and turning them into pleasing aesthetics to create an inviting environment despite being designed to run on less powerful machines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0MzZyZ-ty8

Thank you Gramual for that.
I can see what you are saying, but right now i does feel more like I am playing a Tech Demo of an MMO.
They have pushed up the graphics side of the game, in regards to Charactor, equipment and mob design.
But yet, to build the vast open world areas, they have used a copy and paste design. Which to me kills the Aesthetics.
The aesthetics in this game are more centred around the charactor, and less on the world.
Isn't it the world that is ment to embrace you?

And Tonka, thank you, but alas the youtube link isnt working for me.. lol
What is the title so I can seach for it?

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Thank you for spotting that typo. its now sorted.
But at the same time you havn't expressed any opinion on the subject.

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It wasn't a matter of a typo (which I didn't even notice). I was stressing on the source of the piece, which isn't exactly what i would consider reputable or source of any intelligent or realistic materials. They like to ramble about nothing at all, and this is what they do in this case as wel.

There's really nothing to discuss about anything that comes from the escapist.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

And Tonka, thank you, but alas the youtube link isnt working for me.. lol
What is the title so I can seach for it?

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Most peculiar. It is titled, "The City of Lion's Arch".

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Originally Posted by Abriael

It wasn't a matter of a typo (which I didn't even notice). I was stressing on the source of the piece, which isn't exactly what i would consider reputable or source of any intelligent or realistic materials. They like to ramble about nothing at all, and this is what they do in this case as wel.

There's really nothing to discuss about anything that comes from the escapist.

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I don't see why people get so bent up over extra credits, they bring up important things about game design and the people involved with them. Things that need to be discussed so we can grow and evolve as a system.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

Example of taking marginal graphical power and turning them into pleasing aesthetics to create an inviting environment despite being designed to run on less powerful machines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0MzZyZ-ty8

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And when you see the same area from a player's point of view, it looks like normal Korean MMO fare released five years ago, with stretched low resolution textures, grass badly glued on the flat ground and all that. The actual gameplay videos of GW2 (and of any game that use the same camera tricks in their trailers, which means pretty much all of them) are much, much less flattering.

"scenic" flycam from angles that you will never see in the game != reality

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I don't see why people get so bent up over extra credits, they bring up important things about game design and the people involved with them. Things that need to be discussed so we can grow and evolve as a system.

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Because they know absolutely nothing about game development, and ramble about points that normally have no reflection in reality, completely ignoring the actual problems that come with actual game development, slapping around badly thought-out hearsay as it was actually true, just to give the impression that they "know better" while they don't.

Which is pretty much the same for the whole Escapist staff, when they aren't actually paid to purposedly (and artificially) bash the work of game developers "for the lulz" even when it's not nearly warranted or justified.

Thank you Tonka.. got the link working.
To me.. that is very Aestheticly pleaseing to the eye.
You got a sense of a place.. that was lived in and that people has used everyday for a long time.
With the currentt cities in FF-XIV. To coin a phrase from another thread I read today.. the cities look too new. Too clean.
If that makes any sense.
Yes we have high resolution textures in FF-XIV, and you can zoom in on a Ladadel and almost see every thread. But in doing that, you are creating a beast of a high fedality game engine. And if everything else isn't up to that standard. Then it sticks out a mile. Thats why the Cut and Paste design stands out to me.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

And when you see the same area from a player's point of view, it looks like normal Korean MMO fare released five years ago, with stretched low resolution textures, grass badly glued on the flat ground and all that. The actual gameplay videos of GW2 are much, much less flattering.

"scenic" flycam from angles that you will never see in the game != reality

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ArenaNet is an American company. The game is not being made/produced by a Korean company. NCSoft is not making this game. I know you've already been told this before...

As for the discussion at hand, they are taking less powerful graphics designed to run on lower-end machines and making it look inviting. Some aspects may seem dated after looking at a Miqo'te running around, but they manage to make it look great.

Creativity/art direction > OMG THIS GRASS LOOKS SO MUCH NICER but there's nothing else to look at beyond vast plains of nothingness sprinkled with Nutbiters.

Speaking of the grass, it actually sways when you run through it in GW2. B|

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Originally Posted by Abriael

"scenic" flycam from angles that you will never see in the game != reality

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This on a XIV forum, priceless...

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

This on a XIV forum, priceless...

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lol.. and thank you.

I am not saying the video is right or wrong..
I use the Video of extra Credits to make me think.

If I had not been watching that series. I would be bashing this game left right and centre. But at the end of they day. There are a lot of factors that come in to game devlopment.

This series gives me the option to question what I currently think. And some times raise a question.

In this case, I am questioning in a sense, did SE go out of their way to try and make an techncially visually impressive game, and in doing so, the world they was creating got lost.

Abriael, if you dont like where this discussion is going.. why be a part of it. So far you have seamed to tackle this from the mindset of that you don't like The Escapist, so therefore everything about this thread is wrong. But as of yet, you havn't realy commented on the descussion at hand.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

ArenaNet is an American company. The game is not being made/produced by a Korean company. NCSoft is not making this game. I know you've already been told this before...

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What part of "it looks like normal Korean MMO fare" did you miss?
Asian-style badly rendered characters completaly lacking detail, buildings that look like they are made of cardboard, environments that look great zoomed out and flying, but that look lame when you actually walk into them, poor interiors lacking decoration (for the few buildings that actually do have an interior) = Normal Korean MMO fare.

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Creativity/art direction > OMG THIS GRASS LOOKS SO MUCH NICER but there's nothing else to look at beyond vast plains of nothingness sprinkled with Nutbiters.

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When creativity and art direction are not supported by graphical power, they still look like crap on today's games.

OMG this grass is so creative! But it still looks like a piece of cutout cardboard glued on a completely flat ground with an horrible low rez texture that completely ruins the atmosphere.

Again. Gameplay videos of the same areas aren't flattering at all. But go on being tricked by carefully staged trailers that you'll never see in the game if it floats your boat.

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Speaking of the grass, it actually sways when you run through it in GW2. B|

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And it still looks like pixelated crap glued on the ground.

But back on the video at hand, I started laughing when they said that Killzine 2 is a game lacking in aesthetics. It pretty much goes to show that they don't even know what "aesthetics" means, considering that the art direction of the whole killzone series is one of the best in the genre.

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

This on a XIV forum, priceless...

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Pretty random comment considering that FFXIV is one of the MMO games for which the scenic flycam has been used the least in promotion.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Abriael, if you dont like where this discussion is going.. why be a part of it. So far you have seamed to tackle this from the mindset of that you don't like The Escapist, so therefore everything about this thread is wrong. But as of yet, you havn't realy commented on the descussion at hand.

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Oh but I did. The fact that I didn't say what you like/expect to read doesn't mean that I didn't.
Points are simple:
1) they don't know crap about aesthetics, as much as they don't know crap about game development (lol @ Killzone 2 lacking in aesthetics)
2) aesthetics tend to go down the drain when they're not supported by graphical power. Many Korean and Korean-like MMORPGs that look great from an artificially staged distance and look like a punch in the eye when you actually walk in them are a perfect example of this.

Go on, Abriael. Show us on this doll where ArenaNet touched you.

Seriously. It's a good example of utilizing art direction to create an aesthetically pleasing environment while using less than optimal graphics, which is what this thread is about. No reason to get upset about it, my good man.

Again.. Thank you tonka for trying to a voice of reason.

The video isnt important, thats why I din't post the link for it. The thing that is important is the question and thought behind it.
I just wanted to hear what others though on this subject matter.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

Go on, Abriael. Show us on this doll where ArenaNet touched you.

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Luckily, criticism doesn't necessarily involve a bias. Quite the contrary. I simply compared GW2's gameplay videos with the promotional staged ones and noticed the evident difference.
The same difference that is easily seen in basically every game that uses the flycam trick in order to show their environments in the best light possible.

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Seriously. It's a good example of utilizing art direction to create an aesthetically pleasing environment while using less than optimal graphics, which is what this thread is about. No reason to get upset about it, my good man.

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Seriously, are you pulling out the "u mad?" argument? You seem to be the one upset because someone criticized your favourite upcoming kid on the block :D

Actually it's just a good example of utilizing a staged camera to hide flaws that are very evident in game, and to make the environment look more grand and epic then it actually is. A trick that's used not only by arenanet, but by a LOT of game developers out there.
Too bad that the impact with reality tends to be quite harsh as the hidden flaws are fully revealed as soon as the character walks into said environment, never being able to experience the angles and motion patterns displayed in the trailers and having to instead fully experience the flaws and shortcomings of the engine.

This is exacerbated even more when in those environment you start to see walking characters that look even worse than the environment (because too many of the already limited resources of the engine/hardware have been allocated to the environment, leaving too little for the characters), and as such seem to be artificially slapped into it, ruining the overall feel even more.

Mind you, it's indeed an example of good art direction, but of good art direction in trailer making. Not in game development.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

Again.. Thank you tonka for trying to a voice of reason.

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Voice that agrees with you != Voice of reason.

Ultimately, Aesthetics are subjective, graphical quality is not. You may like or not like a game's art direction, but graphical quality is an absolute value over which aesthetics can be built.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Pretty random comment considering that FFXIV is one of the MMO games for which the scenic flycam has been used the least in promotion.

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Less random once you realize in the actual game that same trick turns badly scripted cutscenes into GRAPHICALLY AMAZING STORY EVENTS!



On topic of GW2, you're of course fully entitled to your opinion about it's graphical appearance, but you shouldn't try to sell it to us as anything remotely resembling a fact.



edit: ah, dammit, I fell for it again, didn't I?

Ok.. I will stand up then.. earlier you typed this..

"Oh but I did. The fact that I didn't say what you like/expect to read doesn't mean that I didn't.
Points are simple:
1) they don't know crap about aesthetics, as much as they don't know crap about game development (lol @ Killzone 2 lacking in aesthetics)
2) aesthetics tend to go down the drain when they're not supported by graphical power. Many Korean and Korean-like MMORPGs that look great from an artificially staged distance and look like a punch in the eye when you actually walk in them are a perfect example of this. "

You first point is the material that got me thinking about this subject. Which is kinda why I am here, it doesnt matter who made the the video, the only thing we take from it is I am rasing the question in regards to this game.

On the second point, you are talking more about the graphics of the game, the draw distance, Fog, the light, the textures. Yes, FF-XIV does have a lot of this. But at the same time, the world needs to feel like a charator in its self. Thats where the Asthetics come in, to me its the way you feel connected to the world, and the way the world will draws you in.

Right now, I don't feel that connection to the game world as have I with many other games I have playied. I do play yes, but only to do leves, to give me a head start when things might come along.

But I am interested to know, just because you raised it. How do you see Killzone 2 as Aestheticly pleaseing?

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Originally Posted by Naqaj

Less random once you realize in the actual game that same trick turns badly scripted cutscenes into GRAPHICALLY AMAZING STORY EVENTS!

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Cutscenes in FFXIV very rarely use the flycam trick. They're normally quite zoomed in into the scene, and definitely don't try to hide flaws. Try again.

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On topic of GW2, you're of course fully entitled to your opinion about it's graphical appearance, but you shouldn't try to sell it to us as anything remotely resembling a fact.

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Too bad that it's a fact, gameplay videos are there for everyone to see, as much as the fact that they look no more impressive than any game developed in korea years ago, and lose most if not all of the "omg!" value of the flycam scenes. Expectedly so.
I'm sure GW2 fans coming here to promote it don't like to hear it, but that doesn't make it less of a fact.

Mind you, I fully plan to play GW2 at release, this doesn't mean i can be blinded by simple promotional tricks that have been used in the industry for years. I won't play it for the graphics/art, anyway.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

On the second point, you are talking more about the graphics of the game, the draw distance, Fog, the light, the textures. Yes, FF-XIV does have a lot of this. But at the same time, the world needs to feel like a charator in its self. Thats where the Asthetics come in, to me its the way you feel connected to the world, and the way the world will draws you in.

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Can't be drawn in by a world that looks like it's made of cardboard, with characters that seem to be made of foam. That's, by the way, where coherence in graphics and art direction comes into play. One of the best aspects of FFXIV's engine and art direction is that they're coherent between mobiles and world design.

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But I am interested to know, just because you raised it. How do you see Killzone 2 as Aestheticly pleaseing?

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The art direction in Killzone 2 is one of the most iconic in the industry (the hellghast are a true work of art for instance), the environments show great detail, are extremely realistic, and athmospheric. On top of that there's a great coherence between art direction and graphical power.
The makers of that video just randomly fished one of the most graphically performing games out there and "invented" a lack of aesthetics to prove a false point.

Gotta remember that Extra Credits is an opinion show, and while Daniel Floyd tends to have very valid, intelligent opinions, he also has a tendency to "preach". This aside, I do feel that this applies to XIV pretty well. Not because XIV has a "bad aesthetic", but because there was too much emphasis on graphical power. I feel that future releases of the game should be less graphically demanding but still contain the high-end options available. Simply on the basis that players shouldn't be punished for having expensive PCs to run the game, but it should be playable on more computers.

XIV's actual aesthetic is actually really good, by avoiding the traps of "epic looking" everything. And while there should certainly be gaudy options available, the modest aesthetic is actually rather enjoyable. What XIV needs though is very minor adjustments to add character

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Cutscenes in FFXIV very rarely use the flycam trick. They're normally quite zoomed in into the scene, and definitely don't try to hide flaws. Try again.



Too bad that it's a fact, gameplay videos are there for everyone to see, as much as the fact that they look no more impressive than any game developed in korea years ago, and lose most if not all of the "omg!" value of the flycam scenes. Expectedly so.
I'm sure GW2 fans coming here to promote it don't like to hear it, but that doesn't make it less of a fact.

Mind you, I fully plan to play GW2 at release, this doesn't mean i can be blinded by simple promotional tricks that have been used in the industry for years. I won't play it for the graphics/art, anyway.

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I think his point was using dramatic angles and what not to hide flaws, and make something more entertaining and believable is the primary tenant of good storytelling, and it is true. Movie makers use various props, and techniques to draw you in to the game.

Your opinion on aesthetics is heavily influenced by graphical power from what you have said, you are apparently a person who prefers high graphics to artistic direction, This is fine, you represent the opposite side, but your opinion is just an opinion, one of many dont assume that your opinion is fact.

Imo guild wars2 has pretty varied and engaging backgrounds, though, the overall direction isnt perfect to me, and sometimes over the top, however, it certainly looks intriguing.
FFXIV also has some pretty good designs really, the main problem is lack of variety, it looks nice in small doses, but the variety is not there, there are points here and there that are interesting and different, but way too much of reusing the same exact layouts, not just the building blocks. This may change as they add to the game though, coerthas for example is amuch better design than black shroud

Photo of FFXIV


Photo of FFXI

FFXI is a great example of doing more with less. The aesthetics in FFXI look great. Even tho the graphical technology is bad, with low res textures and polygons, the world is absolutely breathtaking.

FFXIV on the other hand is a great example of focusing waay too much on high res polygons and textures, bump mapping, and wannabe reflective surfaces, and focusing too little on making the game actually look great. Because of the emphasis on those things, they had to leave out decent shading making the game look very wacky.

SE totally dropped the ball here. One can only hope that they are totally redoing every zone.

I am proberly as a disadvantage, be cause the only thing of Killzone 2 I playied was the Demo. I didn't go for the game, because I felt like I had seen it before. The armor designs and art direction reminded me a lot of Fallout.
To me it didn't feel orginal. With a lot of games conforming to the gray/metalic world, perhaps I got too used to it and missed something.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Your opinion on aesthetics is heavily influenced by graphical power from what you have said, you are apparently a person who prefers high graphics to artistic direction, This is fine, you represent the opposite side, but your opinion is just an opinion, one of many dont assume that your opinion is fact.

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Nope. I'm stating that graphical power needs to be balanced and coherent with art direction. That's not really an opinion, as that' what's conductive to actual quality in a game.

The ones advocating that art direction can stand on it's own without caring crap about the graphics supporting it, normally do so just to look "artsy", but that standpoint is hardly conductive to quality. Quite the contrary.

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Originally Posted by DarkReed

I am proberly as a disadvantage, be cause the only thing of Killzone 2 I playied was the Demo. I didn't go for the game, because I felt like I had seen it before. The armor designs and art direction reminded me a lot of Fallout.
To me it didn't feel orginal. With a lot of games conforming to the gray/metalic world, perhaps I got too used to it and missed something.

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Fallout 1&2 != Fallout 3, especially in art direction and graphics. Fallout 3 was released way, way after Killzone. So, if you see a similarity (that I don't see, by the way, Fallout 3's art direction isn't nearly as dark, gloomy and oppressive as Killzone's. Fallout's armors aren't designed to be nearly as terrifying as the Helghast's) then you might wonder if Fallout 3 copied from Killzone, not the other way around.

Mind you, Originality is by no means a necessary factor for a good or even exceptional art direction, even because at this point complete originality in videogame art is pretty much impossible. Influences are inevitable.

Original != Good
Not original != Bad.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What you said.

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No more than a month or so ago they said they didn't plan on having the option to walk. Then that video I posted came out and they confirmed they were working on it. Not a big deal. Plus, it's not like it will look as fluid and nice as FFXIV's motion capture when it's all finished anyway. But as long as there isn't a little delay every time I start or stop running (or turn etc) I'll be much more happy with this.

And there is plenty of player footage including running around the human city which looks great even on foot, in my opinion. I don't want to really get into it any more as I was just trying to offer an example to the OP and completely except that you don't agree with much or anything I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Tonka

And there is plenty of player footage including running around the human city which looks great even on foot, in my opinion. I don't want to really get into it any more as I was just trying to offer an example to the OP and completely except that you don't agree with much or anything I'm saying.

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That's exactly the videos i'm talking about. I'm not sure about your standards, but that's exactly what I refer as "usual Korean MMO fare". It's not bad enough to turn me off the game, that's pretty damn for sure (I'm hoping that they'll do "public quests" right this time around so that I can finally enjoy the concept), but it's nowhere that impressive. It's pretty much on the same level that Korean mmorpg offered in the last couple years.

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Originally Posted by Trocien

Photo of FFXIV


Photo of FFXI

FFXI is a great example of doing more with less. The aesthetics in FFXI look great. Even tho the graphical technology is bad, with low res textures and polygons, the world is absolutely breathtaking.

FFXIV on the other hand is a great example of focusing waay too much on high res polygons and textures, bump mapping, and wannabe reflective surfaces, and focusing too little on making the game actually look great. Because of the emphasis on those things, they had to leave out decent shading making the game look very wacky.

SE totally dropped the ball here. One can only hope that they are totally redoing every zone.

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This is a much better comparison to make.

-however-

The graphics in Aht Urghan zones were created after years of experience and real world performance results with the graphics engine. The initial FFXI areas like Bastok, and Jeuno are really quite bland when you look at them. This was due in part to the development team playing as conservative as possible with the engine because they had to prepare for worst-case scenarios in hardware (particularly the PS2) and software performance. Because FFXIV is built a new graphics engine, the same precautions had to be taken.

Another factor for the rather lackluster environments might be marketing. It makes more sense to keep the standard for graphics rather low at first so that you can continuously raise the bar and dazzle the players with each new expansion.

Even if what we have now isn't the end all of graphics, it still looks very nice. As time goes on, and new content is released, I have no doubt that we will begin to see some fantastic stuff in this game.

I'm torn by how I feel about the current aesthetics. I actually like how the cities look, and the individual pavilions and all that (for example, the entrance to the Pugilists' guild in Ul'Dah, I think, is very well done). I generally like how "real" everything feels. But anything outside the cities is more or less dull and repetitive, and I can definitely see the need for more variation and...color.

Still, the biggest thing holding back immersion for me in FFXIV has nothing to do with graphics or art design -- it's the lack of things to do and an altogether silent community (outside of linkshells).

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The ones advocating that art direction can stand on it's own without caring crap about the graphics supporting it, normally do so just to look "artsy", but that standpoint is hardly conductive to quality. Quite the contrary.

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There are plenty of 2D games, and older classics, that have fantastic art. Bottom line is that the whole aesthetic debate is chock full of differing opinions, so obviously there will be disagreements. I don't think anyone's trying to appear "artsy" by claiming that pleasing art styles can be accomplished without groundbreaking hardware. It's been done.

And just to show how different opinions can be, I've always thought Killzone 2 was uninspiring and boring. Graphically, it looked nice when it launched (not sure how it's aged), but I never once felt immersed by the gameplay, much less its art design.

I think the thing is, from the GW video the city seems way more organic than the FFXIV cities. Someone earlier mentioned that the FF cities looked to "clean"? There really is a sterile, still quality to the cities (except in cutscenes when they ream them full of NPCs, like the Ul'dah opening scene parade). Perhaps that's from the overall lack of NPCs? Or the fact that the existing ones just kinda stand there. A game's graphics can be bloody amazing, but if it feels lifeless and sterile graphics can't really make up for that, IMO.

I guess if someone is really OCD, it could be difficult to look past less-than-state-of-the-art graphics to enjoy a lush, interactive, living world. *shrug* if someone can't see the forest for the trees, then that's their problem.

*edit: oh, and for what it's worth: I enjoy FFXIV and have no interest in playing GW2 currently. Just using the vid as a basis for comparison

I looked @ those pic's someone posted so basically what everyone wants is just stuff in the back round and in the field to make the game look better? Like buildings and stuff? I for one don't care about copy paste zones and other small stuff. XI was a big copy/paste fest to me. Hell they even reused zones for an expansion pack.

Isn't TheEscapist run by a bunch of people openly despise Final Fantasy and automatically claim any game with it in its name is a failure before its even released?

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Isn't TheEscapist run by a bunch of people openly despise Final Fantasy and automatically claim any game with it in its name is a failure before its even released?

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No, not in the video that I am talking about, in this situation they actually something good about the FF series.

You guys wanna know of a couple games with amazing aesthetics using the little graphical power they had on the PS2? Persona 3 and 4.

I like the aesthetics of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Frisque

I think the thing is, from the GW video the city seems way more organic than the FFXIV cities. Someone earlier mentioned that the FF cities looked to "clean"? There really is a sterile, still quality to the cities (except in cutscenes when they ream them full of NPCs, like the Ul'dah opening scene parade). Perhaps that's from the overall lack of NPCs? Or the fact that the existing ones just kinda stand there. A game's graphics can be bloody amazing, but if it feels lifeless and sterile graphics can't really make up for that, IMO.

I guess if someone is really OCD, it could be difficult to look past less-than-state-of-the-art graphics to enjoy a lush, interactive, living world. *shrug* if someone can't see the forest for the trees, then that's their problem.

*edit: oh, and for what it's worth: I enjoy FFXIV and have no interest in playing GW2 currently. Just using the vid as a basis for comparison

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GW2 probably has the most awful world design of any upcoming MMOs. If you want to pick examples from upcoming MMOs, choose one of the korean games for a lesson on how to make graphically pleasing games + immersive and interactive ones.

I would have been looking forward to GW2 if I didn't have to look away from it for fear of being blinded by ugliness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

GW2 probably has the most awful world design of any upcoming MMOs. If you want to pick examples from upcoming MMOs, choose one of the korean games for a lesson on how to make graphically pleasing games + immersive and interactive ones.

I would have been looking forward to it if I didn't have to look away from it for fear of being blinded by ugliness.

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Seriously?
It look pretty nice.