Hey guys.
Ive been having a blast playing warrior so far. Im now lvl41 and I was really scared doing instances like Sunken Temple because I heard from friends Im playing with that its really hard. Instead we lol'd through it and I got really great feedback for being a good tank which is always nice <3
Ive never failed a dungeon and the only few wipes Ive been apart of was due to the team having NO CLUE how some bosses worked but we still got through them.
I feel warrior is really strong myself, is the whine threads simply because of a few endgame battles which is harder as a warrior? Do people fail using defensive cooldowns effectively? Will I end up calling you all whiners now only to come back here and join the hate train after garuda/titan hardmode? x)
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10-02-2013, 06:39 AMLiquidOuroboros"Warrior tank sucks!" opinions only based on one or two factors atm?
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10-02-2013, 06:53 AMBadRNG
There is a plain mathematical discrepancy in favor of PLD, but it doesn't actually become very noticeable/an issue for most people until around Titan HM. The biggest problem lies in the fact that a PLD's tanking ability scales with enemy damage, while a WAR's scales with his own. This model works for most of the game, but once you have bosses hitting you regularly for 50-80% of your HP your self heals don't cut it and a WAR's defensive cooldowns are a joke compared to a PLD's.
There is a lot of hyperbole abound, like people saying we can't do the content at all - people have proven we certainly can up until round Turn 4 - but it's just a PLD is so much easier to heal and more effective. I remember another posted framed it best as a PLD works with his healer, a WAR depends on his. -
10-02-2013, 07:06 AMYsarelSort of but not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidOuroboros
PLD is the stronger class from a defensive standpoint. Stronger defensive abilities, some even on better timers. Parry and shield blocks. WAR's self-heals are too infrequent and too underpowered to make up the difference. Storm's Path, the closest thing we have to a spammable self-heal, requires advance planning and has a high opportunity cost (Storm's Eye or Butcher's Block) for low returns. PLD is less likely to eat dirt in any given situation. You could say that this is only significant for the handful of fights that are really considered dangerous for a half-decently geared/skilled tank (Titan, Coil), but it's still a relevant concern further down the difficulty chain. You gain a little extra safety if your healers aren't on the ball. Maybe your healers can DD a bit and speed up the fight. Maybe you can drop a healer for another DD.
(more below) -
10-02-2013, 07:07 AMYsarel
WAR can tank all the content in the game, but PLD makes it easier and/or more efficient. This is the issue that I think Yoshida's off-hand comment about how WAR tanks are fine because the dev team uses them in Coil completely missed. Unless the content is so easy that you need nothing more than a SCH's fairy to heal it, swapping a PLD in for a WAR potentially allows you to improve the efficiency of your group. Even there, the damage output of a Sword Oath PLD isn't all that far removed from what a WAR can dish out.
Don't get me wrong, I love WAR. PLD bores me to tears and I have zero interest in playing it at level 50. If I want to tank, I go WAR. But it could really use some tweaks.
Stupid 1k character limit. -
10-02-2013, 07:12 AMTronicQFTQuote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
/10char -
10-02-2013, 07:50 AMExrageYsarel hits it right on the head. Warriors are designed to off tank as we do more damage than paladins and can easily swap to tank mode when they die, hold the boss long enough for the debuff to wear off if we save all our defensive CDs and time them properly, and then they /provoke off us for the +1 enmity with little of a gap in the healer's MP compared to if the paladin hadn't gone down. We can main tank, make no mistake, but for the end game you need a team that can carry the difference that a PUG just won't provide. Just remember the 8 classes/8 slots in a party, we have a role- but so do paladins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ysarel
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10-02-2013, 08:02 AMChriskoOnAnotherLevelWarrior might be the only thing you are currently have leveled, but the damage myth has long been parsed. The damage difference between warrior and paladin is SMALL at best. So saying that paladin is better, because we do more damage is just flat out stretching the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exrage
Lets be honest here...., Every single major aspect that a tank is required to fill, paladin currently does it better while taking less damage doing it.
The ONLY possible way to fix warrior quickly and efficiently at this point in time is to add a %damage reduction to defiance. Other exotic measure would also work but this is the quickest and fastest method to get their damage taken CLOSE.
I am a firm believer that PLD should always take LESS damage, but the current damage gap is far far too wide to even be considered reasonable. -
10-02-2013, 08:08 AMNinjiitstuFixed for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChriskoOnAnotherLevel
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10-02-2013, 08:14 AMCocytusSweet I can just skip titan HM and turns 1-3 where parties refuse to take me and go straight to turn 4 where I can actually be useful? Nice!!!! I guess I didn't see that button as my it must have been covered up by the giant billboard pointing out the fact warrior's kit is sloppy and needs a tune up or rework. Damn if only I could get around that giant sign. *Yells out* "Yoshi.... You got that crane yet to move this sign?.... What?.. You're the one that put it here?.. You mean its supposed to be there?" Sorry guys looks like its supposed to be there. /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
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10-02-2013, 10:26 AMNalouExcuse-me, but I don't understand that "off-tank" concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exrage
I'm not lv 50 yet, but I've been tanking for years on FFXI, and we never NEVER had a main tank and an off tank.
We always had a couple of equal tanks bouncing hate, which means tanks working together to take hits alternatively, and also means tanks saving each other by pulling hate from their co-tanker at critical moments.
It also means the healer's job is easier, because two tanks double your tanking Hp pool while splitting the damage taken.
It's also safer for the whole raid/alliance, because, in case one tank dies, you can still survive with the other.
Dual-tanking raises the overall survivability, which also allows more room for offensive actions, instead of being defensive all the time, which leads to faster kills.
So, what's the point of having main tank/off tanks alternate while you could be dual-tanking offensive style ? -
10-02-2013, 11:16 AMSixteenThat's because there is no off-tank concept. Warriors are not better off tanks, most guilds run BC with two paladins. The only thing warriros are better for is Cm/AK farming. Who would roll a class knowing for a fact that they would be stuck off tanking when their counterpart can do both?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
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10-02-2013, 02:40 PMAirget
A simple change could be to just add Rampart as a cross class for warrior, since they've shown that they can do it with other abilities such as cleric stance only being Conjurer/WHM/SCH so why not have Rampart be Gladiator/PLD/WAR.
That simple 10% dmg mitigation for 20 seconds with a 90 second cooldown would most likely do wonders for Warrior's tanking potency without overpowering them or making them more desirable than PLD. -
10-02-2013, 11:39 PMCianaIezubornWhat? I don't even know where to start on this one. There needs to be a horrible idea fairy that visits the forums at night and sets posts like this on fire and then lobotomizes the brain it sprang from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
There is a reason that consistently throughout MMO history that relied on the healer/tank dynamic that the most dangerous time in an encounter is during the tank swap, so much so that it's often safer to eat the mechanical penalty for not swapping tanks and bring an extra dps/healer than to perform the swap. Tank swapping requires quick coordination between the healers and tanks, or requires excess healing to cover for lack of coordination that could have been invested in dps.
Also, hate it for Warriors. From my perspective, as a PLD, it's not really the small but significant static difference in effective tanking. It's the massive amount of proactive defensive cooldowns that PLDs get. -
10-03-2013, 02:00 AMNalou
So, I've been searching what a tank swap is, and I don't think you get the idea at all.
I'm not talking about tank swap. I'm talking about having two tanks keeping equivalent levels of enmity. Example:
- paladin uses rage of halone - mobs hits paladin
- warrior uses butcher block - mob hits warrior
So instead of having
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...
you get
- player 1 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 2 takes 1000 dmg then player 1 takes 1000 dmg then ...
So you are:
- taking the same amount of damage but split on two players
- giving your healers more time to heal and your tanks more time to survive
The basic strategy for average level players should always be to have every vital pawn twice in the team. It means two tanks and two healers.
Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.
Playing with a single tank to add extra dps have two meanings:
- your team is an extremly good team, and can gain in efficiency. This is great, you're a top level player.
- your dps sucks so you need extra dps. Your tank or healer however, is either a pgm and should move to another guild, or his class is unbalanced.
In the end, not that many players are extremely good players. Most try to copy pro gamers... and fail.
Maybe you should "learn to play" like Yoshi said :p -
10-03-2013, 02:10 AMCoramacMost of the server firsts I've seen for Turn 4 used double Paladin tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Edit: Actually, pretty much all the Turn 4 videos use double Paladin. -
10-03-2013, 02:10 AMDerzaBut why would you do this with 1 warrior and 1 pld over 2 plds? What would be the point of bringing the warrior?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
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10-03-2013, 02:14 AMCurlyBruceExcept you aren't. You are taking the same damage and are healing the same amount. Whether you split the damage/heals makes no difference to how much throughput there is. So Player 1 takes 1000 damage then Player 2 takes 1000 damage. Healer 1 heals Player 1 for 1000 and Healer 2 heals player 2 for 1000. How is this any different than Healer 1 heals Player 1 for 1000 and Healer 2 heals Player 1 for 1000? In fact if your healers aren't focusing on one tank the chances of a tank taking a big hit and not receiving the necessary heals from both healers is increased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
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10-03-2013, 02:41 AMHachikoThe difference isn't small. It's massive.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
Interestingly enough, there is a rough parity between mitigation from cooldowns. The PLD cooldowns are all better, and actually more usable, and scale better with monster damage, but the WAR cooldowns provide a significant amount of mitigation.
The biggest difference is Shield Oath v. Defiance/Inner Beast, the ability to block, and the STR reduction from Rage of Halone. -
10-03-2013, 02:47 AMCianaIezubornNo gain in efficiency, only loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
You lose half the duration of any cooldowns on a single tank.
You lose efficiency from either the healers bouncing targets, healers being split on targets, or over heal on either target.
You lose efficiency from having two tanks in tanking stance, as opposed to a tank in dps stance, an additional healer, or a dps.
You lose efficiency from gear on tanks, as the break point is now set to the lower geared tank.
You set your raid up to fail by adding unnecessary complication to execute this.
And you reap zero benefit. None. Nada.
And this is why threads like this that spread such blatant misinformation and idiocy should be burned like witches. Every time someone reads it and doesn't blink at the sheer stupidity of it, it plants it's seeds in the back of that person's mind. It festers and rots, until it produces a satanic infant in the form of a horrible raid strategy that makes people use inefficient tactics then complain about how difficult a trivial encounter is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derza
Killing faster is ALWAYS important.Quote:
Killing faster is rarely an important matter, as you almost always have time to finish the runs if you play well.
On a fight, killing the mob faster means less mechanics you have to deal which means less chances to fail. It also sometimes allows you to skip mechanics all together(think adds on Demon Wall).
In progression, killing farm mobs faster means more time to spend on the mobs you're actually progressing on.
In farm, clearing raids faster gives your raid core more time to do other activities.
If this weren't the case, you might as well tell your dps to put away their epic weapons and pull out the level 1 starter trash and get this party started!
...
I know I'm being harsh, but harshness is how horrible ideas like this need to be approached before they have a chance to infect other potential raiders in the population. -
10-03-2013, 02:50 AMCianaIezubornI may be greatly underestimating the difference in static mitigation, in which case I feel even worse for Warriors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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10-03-2013, 02:54 AMYsarelAdd Rampart vs Foresight to that list. Foresight only mitigates about 7~8% of incoming physical damage vs the flat 20% reduction from Rampart. Plus PLD can use Foresight if they really want to, but WAR doesn't get Rampart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
Bingo. This is what I was talking about earlier when I was talking about how WAR can be functional but PLD is of comparable or greater efficiency and thus there is still a need to balance the two jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
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10-03-2013, 02:57 AMCianaIezubornI'm going to be an elitist for a bit. Just realized I'm debating raid tactics with someone that had to do a google search to figure out what a tank swap is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
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10-03-2013, 03:29 AMPessimiStickI laughed at that too. Clearly he's an authority on raiding and we should be taking his strategies more seriously!Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
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10-03-2013, 03:50 AMKitruI used to think that there was a reasonably facsimile of parity between the two tank CD suites, but, after actually playing a PLD and doing some endgame content, it's not even close. The mitigation that the WAR CDs provide is inferior mainly because they are universally lower in practical value while only being marginally higher in uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
Assume an arbitrary case where incoming damage is 1.5k per GCD with a 2:1 phys:magic split (ignoring mitigation differences; we're discussing CDs, which are multiplicative and therefore unaffected by disparate mitigation constructs) and the tank dealing 250 damage per GCD with 6.5k hp.
The WAR CD suite is comprised of Foresight, Featherfoot, Convalescence, Bloodbath, Thrill of Battle, Awareness, and Second Wind.
Foresight, at 7.5% real DR, would provide 16.67 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.075 * 1000 * 8 / 36).
Featherfoot would provide 25 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.15 * 1000 * 6 / 36).
Convalescence, assuming healing parity with incoming damage, would provide 50 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 1500 * 8 / 48).
Bloodbath would provide 20.83 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.25 * 250 * 12 / 36).
Thrill of Battle would provide 27.08 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 6500 / 48).
Awareness, given a 10% baseline crit chance on physical attacks, would provide 4.17 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.1 * ((1 - (1 / 1.5)) * 1000) * 6 / 48).
Second Wind, with a 25% crit rate, would provide 14.06 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (600 * (1 + .25 * .5) / 48).
The PLD CD suite is comprised of Rampart, Sentinel, Foresight, Convalescence, Bulwark, Hallowed Ground, Awareness, and Bloodbath.
Rampart would provide 66.66 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.2 * 1500 * 8 / 36).
Sentinel would provide 33.33 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.4 * 1500 * 4 / 72).
Foresight, at 7.5% real DR, would provide 12.5 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.075 * 1000 * 8 / 48).
Convalescence, assuming healing parity with incoming damage, would provide 75 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.3 * 1500 * 8 / 48).
Hallowed Ground would provide 35.71 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (1 * 1500 * 4 / 168).
Bulwark, using a 15% block chance and 23% block value as a baseline, would provide 11.91 hit points per GCD, averaged over time ((1 - (1 - 0.75 * 0.23) / (1 - 0.15 * 0.23)) * 1000 * 6 / 72).
Awareness, given a 10% baseline crit chance on physical attacks, would provide 6.94 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.1 * ((1 - (1 / 1.5)) * 1000) * 10 / 48).
Bloodbath would provide 10.42 hit points per GCD, averaged over time (.25 * 250 * 6 / 36).
Total that up and you get 157.81 for WAR and 252.48 for PLD. As damage gets higher, the PLD CD suite only looks better and better. There really isn't any real parity between the two CD suites: PLD is just explicitly *better*. Even if you decide to add Inner Beast + Infuriate to the mix (treating it as a CD rather than a part of mean mitigation; recognize that, if you do this, you're essentially negating *all* self-healing from the WAR mitigation equation, so the 8.7% disparity in healing required is not mollified in the least), you're only adding 83.33 (2000 / 24), and that's assuming you save Berserk and Internal Release for that IB, which still leaves you with an 11.34 hp/GCD discrepancy the, once again, only gets wider.
You have to jump through a crapton of hoops to consider the WAR CD suite the equivalent of the PLD CD suite and all of those hoops are going to serve only to make the mean mitigation disparity worse. Even if you *do* make the claim, the WAR CD suite *still* ends up worse than the PLD CD suite.
The more analysis that gets done, the worse WAR looks. Claims of equivalent or superior performance on the part of the WAR continually get disproven. I really have to wonder if/when the devs are actually going to step in and recognize this. There's a limit to what player skill can do with a given tool set and, honestly, the more WAR gets broken down, the weaker the tool set keeps getting. -
10-03-2013, 04:28 AMHachiko
Kit, I just got done doing a similar exercise, but I used different numbers. I'll modify them here.
I assumed 1400 average inner beast (this is averaging crit and non-crit, assuming Maim / Storm's Eye is up every time), 7000 WAR HP, 770 incoming DPS, ~100 tank DPS. I also assumed 100% physical, blockbable damage (Basically, Caduceus fight). I also assumed 26% block value as that seems to be standard for Holy Shield +1 PLD's. Finally, I left off Awareness because I don't know if I am safe assuming bosses have a crit rate of 10% and even if they do, they certainly don't crit on specials like Rock Buster / Mountain Buster / hood swipe, etc. I also counted Foresight slightly higher at 10% but that isn't really enough to matter. For this I'll use 7.5%. Also, I counted Berserk as a defensive cooldown (though I left off Internal Release as it seems slightly speculative). Finally, I didn't count Second Wind because I think it's a bad cooldown, personally.
For Convalescence, I took the amount of damage needing to be mitigated and considered that roughly the amount of healing needed, then I looked at the difference between healing required before and after.
So if a boss is doing 770 DPS, that's low enough that a WAR should be using Inner Beast whenever possible unless they are saving it for spike damage. Again, assuming a fight like Caduceus most of the damage is predictable. For this reason, I treated Infuriate as it is: a 7% increase in healing recieved for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. And using Inner Beast every 20 seconds is essentially a net heals per second of 70, which reduces the damage to be mitigated to roughly 700 (not exact when it comes to foresight, but close enough). Also, for this reason I am clearly counting the Defiance bonus as 8%, due to that being roughly the average assuming you use Inner Beast every 20 seconds and only use it after you've used Heavy Swing.
Using my numbers:
Foresight .075 * 20 * 700 / 90 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated
Featherfoot .15 * 15 * 700 / 90 = ~17.5 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100 * .25 * 30 /90 = ~8.3 DPS mitigated
Thrill of Battle 1400 / 120 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated
Convalescence - base HPS required = 648, HPS required during convolescence 546. Difference = 102 HPS. 102 * 20 / 120 = ~17 DPS mitigated
Infuriate - Since I'm counting using Inner Beast every time it's up, essentially, it works out to ~8% healing increase for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. Base is the same as w/ Convo. With IB it's 608 HPS required, a difference of 40. 40 * 20 / 60 = ~13.3 DPS mitigated.
Berserk = Increase Inner Beast damage to roughly 2k averaged. a difference of ~600. 600 / 90 = ~6.7 DPS mitigated (potentially double if you Double IB during a Berserk).
This totals ~86.2 DPS mitigated for WAR, or about 12% of the incoming damage.
For PLD 770 DPS is cut to 616 incoming damage via Shield Oath (though I am still assuming that Rampart / Sentinel are additive, so their reduction is based off of 770 not 616).
Foresight .075*20*616/120 = ~7.7 DPS mitigated
Rampart .2*20*770/90 = 34.2 DPS mitigated
Sentinel .4*10*770/180 = 17.1 DPS mitigated
Bulwark .6*.26*15*616/180 = 8 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100*.25*15/90 = 4.16 DPS mitigated
Convalescence - Base HP/S required = 616 after Conva 456, a difference of 160. 160 * 20 /120 = 26.7 DPS mitigated
Hallowed Ground* 616 * 10 / 480 = ~13 DPS mitigated
* I don't like to count hallowed ground because just counting how much DPS it mitigates trivializes its usage. It is much better than that, and I consider it a factor but I don't like counting it as a traditional mitigation cooldown. It looks like one of PLD's worst cooldowns if examined in this light, but it's clearly their best. But I added it here for kicks.
This leaves PLD with a total of 110.9 DPS mitigation. Though in fairness this is significantly higher due to the incoming damage of PLD only being 616, it's effectively 18% of incoming DPS mitigated. I personally leave off Hallowed Ground though, which drops it to ~98 DPS mitigated, which is much closer to WAR's 86.2, and ends up being ~16% incoming DPS mitigation.
So I suppose you are right. Even using my numbers, methodology, and preferences, PLD's have ~30-50% advantage in terms of mitigation from cooldowns. I guess I was selling PLD cooldowns short by saying there was a parity. And it is worth conceding the point that getting all of that out of your cooldowns is going to be between difficult and impossible for practical terms, because it means never getting an ounce of overhealing on WAR, along with a near perfect rotation, which is unlikely.
I still stand by my assertion that the passive mitigation is a bigger deficit, though. And the fact is that Shield Oath begins to outperform Inner Beast/Defiance at incoming DPS levels ~400. -
10-03-2013, 04:37 AMNalouPlease, be elitist, cause you just made my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by CianaIezuborn
Elite players and normal players shouldn't apply the same strategies and play the same way.
All your talk about efficiency seems pointless to me, since I'm considering having fun playing a game.
However, I doubt anyone so narrow-minded can be any elite.
Best we can expect from you is just another random annoying elitist lad.
On a side note, I just checked your character profile and unless you're wearing town gear, you seem really far from being a elite player. -
10-03-2013, 04:44 AMKitruA lot of it depends upon what you consider to be a CD and what you consider to be part of the passive mitigation construct of WARs. For PLD, it's pretty obvious: CDs are for emergencies; you don't really use them as part of your fundamental survivability model (Bloodbath *might* get used like that, but that's a single mediocre CD compared to everything else that PLD gets). For WAR, you've got Inner Beast, which could be treated as a CD or averaged assumed contribution; Bloodbath, which is only really remotely useful when you're using it on CD because it doesn't provide healing in big bursts like it needs to; and Featherfoot, which, because it's a comparatively small value of heavily RNG based mitigation that only really becomes useful when you start going Law of Large Numbers on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
If you consider those to be part of the fundamental mean mitigation model, WAR doesn't look like its falling behind all that far on mean mitigation (it's still behind, however) but looks like it has an utterly abysmal CD suite; if you consider them to be CDs, WAR looks absolutely terrible from a mean mitigation standpoint with a CD suite that falls behind but not a *huge* amount behind.
Arguing whether WAR sucks because of its CD suite or because of its mean mitigation model is semantic: WAR is simply *worse*. *How* it's worse exists on a sliding scale depending upon exactly how you define certain aspects of the class. Just like WAR damage and enmity, WAR either has decent damage and bad enmity or bad damage and good enmity: WAR either has marginally sub-par mean mitigation and utterly terrible CD suite or utterly terrible mean mitigation and a marginally sub-par CD suite. -
10-03-2013, 05:01 AMCoramacTo compare to a Paladin, you need to reduce the healing value of IB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
You don't actually need law of large numbers on Featherfoot depending on how many attacks we're talking about in a burst scenario and what your base evasion rate is. 0% base, it's complete garbage. At 15% base, it's pretty solid. Still a bit of a gamble on the RNG but definitely acceptable as a legitimate defensive CD. -
10-03-2013, 05:03 AMNalouYou have a double HP pool. So instead of having one player able to take 5k damage, you have two players able to take 5k damage each, so you can take 10k damage in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyBruce
About healing, at first sight it's not more efficient, in fact it seems a little bit less efficient since unavoidable AoEs will hit the two tanks.
On second though, a larger HP pool means a larger margin to cast healing spells. You do not need to constantly spam big mp expensive cures on your tank to keep them alive. It means you gain some time.
Time gives you the ability to use MP efficient spells.
Chances to get Stoneskin up more often, chances to get the free cures proc...
So yes, the team will have to deal with the same amount of damage to take... but dual-tanking opens up alternatives ways to do it. -
10-03-2013, 05:11 AMCianaIezubornCool, so just so we're clear that we're all in agreement now that ping ponging aggro between two tanks is a horribly inefficient strategy and is just used for fun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
I personally don't think I'm narrow-minded, I'm perfectly willing to investigate new strategies and to reevaluate old methods. But what you proposed I recognized as voodoo dressed as a strategy, and nothing I saw from you seemed to provide logic to make me think otherwise.
On my equipment, I just hit 50 on Saturday and by saying I was going to be an elitist I was not trying to imply that I'm full AF2 with all turns down in coil. I was pointing out that my next statement was going to be elitist due to the fact that the concept of a tank swap has been a staple in MMO raiding for more than 10 years and that anyone that has done even a casual amount of raiding should recognize the term thereby prompting me to use it in a comical statement in which I realize I'm talking to someone that "doesn't even lift".
Look, I'm sorry if I offended you directly but the fact of the matter is that you put up bad advice on a forum where people look for advice and leaving it unchallenged is just asking for it to spread. I'm sure you're a great person with great hygiene that looks really good in corduroy pants, which isn't easy. -
10-03-2013, 05:13 AMCianaIezubornNo! Bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
I was literally trying to pay him a compliment and while I'm typing he goes and does this.
Someone give me a rolled up newspaper so we can bop him on the nose.
Bad puppy! No bad strategies! -
10-03-2013, 05:40 AMGooner_iBluAirJGR
Shield Oath is OP, Defiance is not. That's why we're mad.
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10-03-2013, 05:50 AMCianaIezubornSo anyway, now that I've gotten my jab in at you for calling me a random annoying elitist lad (which I assume is some kind of nancy, and that hurts me in my heart) lets review your strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalou
So the objective is to effectively double your hp pool by ping ponging back and forth between two tanks? Well as opposed to doing that, lets try this instead.
Let's stick all the healers on one tank, we can call him the MT. They'll keep him up just like they would the two tanks ping ponging back and forth.
We'll stick the other tank in reserve and we'll call him the OT. What we'll do is say that if the MT drops down to about ~10% then this tank will provoke the mob and hold it till the MT's hp is back up and then the MT will provoke it back.
But wait, now we're noticing that the OT isn't getting hit all the time, so why is he in tanking stance? Hey now he can switch over to DPS stance and do more dps while he's in reserve. How novel and smart we are!
Hey guys, it looks like when we stick all the healers on one tank, he really isn't dipping that far down. Cause you know he's taking twice the damage, but he's getting twice the healing. In fact, I don't think we really need that back up tank, he hasn't had to provoke once! Wait, what's that over there?
Extra DPS - "Itsa me! Extra DPS guy!"
Raid - "What can you do, Extra DPS guy?"
Extra DPS - "Why I can up your 8 man's damage by 25%!"
Raid - "Wow a whole 25%? That's like having an extra dps'er in the raid!"
Extra DPS - "Not only that, but I'm also going to reduce the amount of times your tank has to get hit by 20%!"
Raid - "That's super amazing, how will you manage that Extra DPS guy?"
Extra DPS - "Through the magic of time my dear friends. You see when you kill something faster, the amount of 'Time' they have to hit you is lower!"
Raid - "That's amazing Extra DPS guy! You're my favorite friend!"
Oh god I can't do this anymore, it's to much work for to little stupid. -
10-03-2013, 07:30 AMKitruI wasn't specifically adding it to the calculations. I was simply remarking on the difference in categorization of certain abilities between calculations and how they impacted the end results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coramac
0% base, it's a 15% reduction in damage taken. 15% base, it's an 17.7% reduction in damage taken. Additive gains to percentage based damage reduction mechanisms *do* get more valuable as you get more. However, you have to get pretty high for the value to start skyrocketing as you're assuming here: at 50% base dodge, it would provide 30% reduction in damage taken; at 80% base dodge, it would provide 75% reduction in base damage.Quote:
You don't actually need law of large numbers on Featherfoot depending on how many attacks we're talking about in a burst scenario and what your base evasion rate is. 0% base, it's complete garbage. At 15% base, it's pretty solid. Still a bit of a gamble on the RNG but definitely acceptable as a legitimate defensive CD.
Since dodge chances in ARR are relatively low (pretty sure it's in the single digit chance range), Featherfoot still doesn't provide all that much outside of Law of Large Numbers applications. -
10-03-2013, 07:47 AMCoramacWhat? Makes no sense at all. This is a PDF. You're treating it as pure mitigation. At 0% base evasion, it's going to be a coin flip in most burst scenarios as to whether Featherfoot does anything. At 15% base evasion, there's a very good chance it does something. Law of Large Numbers is irrelevant here; it's about statistical stability which we aren't dealing with while looking at with a single trial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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10-03-2013, 07:50 AMCoramacRight, I'm not saying you did. However, when comparing IB to anything with a Paladin, people are not taking into consideration it's effectiveness is diminished as Paladin HPs are inherently more valuable than War HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru