The current battle system mainly calculate everything from Your Rank vs Mob Rank

I really doubt what was Team Tanaka did in the past 5 years?

Your thought?

I really doubt it work in that way instead. Where is your proof ? And i mean concrete maths, not some "it's clear"

No proof needed. Its 1. Obvious and 2. Already proven. Kaeko did the math somewhere.

Need a field test? Go fight any HNM with a Lv1 weapon then switch to a Lv45+ weapon. Same damage.

yeah i notice that many people do bad tests, or ignore tests that go against what they believe to be true. They also make leaps to judgement based on ideas in their heads.
If you really want to get into the mathematics of damage calculation, and why you think its bad, you need an actual formula to work with. You need to know what the variables are, and what it means.

Im not even saying that everything is perfect, but really, how are you going to discuss something with only half assed information. Better you should say, reveal the damage formula SE so we can see if it makes any sense, then talk about facets of a damage formula that you only have anecdotal proof even works as you assume it does.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

I really doubt it work in that way instead. Where is your proof ? And i mean concrete maths, not some "it's clear"

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He's not a person to ask proof from, you won't get it. The only thing that's obvious is stats are unbalanced which logically mean, rank vs rank difference will be greater than it should be.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No proof needed. Its 1. Obvious and 2. Already proven. Kaeko did the math somewhere.

Need a field test? Go fight any HNM with a Lv1 weapon then switch to a Lv45+ weapon. Same damage.

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that isnt a field test, NMs often have different properties, who knows what the situation is there. I have however seen test runs on actual monsters where there is a noticeable difference in damage with attack and strength. Being that i have seen this, at worst the equation is more complex than you assume it to be.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No proof needed. Its 1. Obvious and 2. Already proven. Kaeko did the math somewhere.

Need a field test? Go fight any HNM with a Lv1 weapon then switch to a Lv45+ weapon. Same damage.

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That's exaclty the response i DON'T want. Math or gtfo

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He's not a person to ask proof from, you won't get it. The only thing that's obvious is stats are unbalanced which logically mean, rank vs rank difference will be greater than it should be.

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It's not a mystery stats are broken, so obliusly the rank difference it's the major source of damage. but still, if she say that as it's setten on stone, i want a proper formula

Total "Yes, it is"! During alpha-beta period was some differents, i think they switch off everything cz "balance".

It seems like the Tanaka was so rushed they put in a place-holder system (they put in as lot of them) the easiest thing at the time was to come up with a rank vs rank system.

Hopefully after the battle system fix the team will have removed this and added a proper stat system.

I have no proof this is the case, so don't ask for any :)

OK, un-assign all your attributes to default, using weathered weapon, naked, r50 and try to hit an r1 marmot. you'll see what happen

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Originally Posted by Physic

Im not even saying that everything is perfect, but really, how are you going to discuss something with only half assed information. Better you should say, reveal the damage formula SE so we can see if it makes any sense, then talk about facets of a damage formula that you only have anecdotal proof even works as you assume it does.

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It's one of the few people around the communities who says "PROTECT AND SHELL DOES NOTHING!" without supplying parse data, which is even easier to get now. The logic behind it does nothing is that it's no longer -50% dt buffs, then they always say "you show us proof it works" despite the fact it's not the other people saying it doesn't work.

You're better off just ignoring his posts or not asking for reasoning.

i have little doubt not sure if this theory will please anyone,

I do agree on the term of you changing Weapons from a R50 weapon to R1 at the start will see like no significant change, but idk why after awhile my attack suddenly got lowered to a R1 attack.

From what i see here is that there is a delay stats change when you change the weapon. that the only theory i can see on why an R50 weapon does same damage as R1 weapon.

It will fade away after few minutes.

I found this out very much all the time when i switch between weapons of same Class.

Again this is just my theory of spontaneous switching weapon effect. O_O

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Originally Posted by Evangela

OK, un-assign all your attributes to default, using weathered weapon, naked, r50 and try to hit an r1 marmot. you'll see what happen

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where is my math ?

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Originally Posted by Evangela

OK, un-assign all your attributes to default, using weathered weapon, naked, r50 and try to hit an r1 marmot. you'll see what happen

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In every RPG/MMO (heavily stat driven calculation genre) if you're rank 50 and beating on a rank 1 marmot you'll be over the attack vs defense cap compared to if you were rank 1 attacking a rank 1 marmot. If you were rank 1 and were to attack a rank 50 mob, you should be doing the same damage logically but that doesn't work.

Most mmo's do this, it prevents the player from engaging higher level mobs, but this game has taken it to an extreme where the stats account for nothing. Our damage increases as our rank increases and not by placing points into strength or intelligence.

You see this when you attack a lower level mob versus that of a mob the same level or higher the damage becomes drastically smaller, while the allocation of stats does nothing to improve these numbers. So the current system in place wasn't given much thought, or just plain abandoned by the developers for fixing at a later time.

Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. - Mohandas Gandhi

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Originally Posted by Elexia

In every RPG/MMO (heavily stat driven calculation genre) if you're rank 50 and beating on a rank 1 marmot you'll be over the attack vs defense cap compared to if you were rank 1 attacking a rank 1 marmot. If you were rank 1 and were to attack a rank 50 mob, you should be doing the same damage logically but that doesn't work.

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I didn't said attributes/weapon/gears are broken but what I want to say is Rank vs Rank is the most effective for the current battle system

Too bad stats ARE broken. Now, maths. I'll keep asking until topicdeath, if necessary

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I didn't said attributes/weapon/gears are broken but what I want to say is Rank vs Rank is the most effective for the current battle system

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The higher your rank the higher your base stats ignoring allocation, therefore if you're rank 50 beating on rank 1 mobs you'll logically be over their caps whereas if it was reversed you wouldn't last one hit depending on what family mob it is, since high physical level means you likely have more HP than a brand new rank 1.

Since the stats are currently broken and unbalanced so rank vs rank calculations are at an extreme.

ok people talking about hitting a rank 1 marmot and comparing it to something else, you should really stop, there are numerous reasons why this is often the case. point blank what i as a level 44 can do to a rank 1 marmot is totally irrelevant, because i get no exp for this. Take data based on monsters within a reasonable range of your charachter. test on things that are within 10 levels of you, or up to +15

take into account not all monsters are the same in this game, some have virtually no defense, some have a ton of defense.

The type of tests you people are talking about would also fail in FFXI btw. testing my weapons on a level 1 mob, my attack will not matter at all. testing my damage on admantoise, increasing my attack by 100 will cause a barely noticeable gain in damage per attack. if this is you guys data, your data is very poor, and it is no wonder that you can look only to dlevel because it is the simplest way to increase your damage.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

I didn't said attributes/weapon/gears are broken but what I want to say is Rank vs Rank is the most effective for the current battle system

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rank versus rank was always the most effective for ffxi as well. they also had dlevel formulas limiting your damage on things higher than you.

I honestly cant see much wrong with dlevel being a big factor, it actually works. by the time i can murder something insanely, the exp reward reflects that. When taking on things 20 levels higher than me, it is sufficently difficult. the truth is they could extrapolate dlevel from the formula, and make it have the exact same results, the stats would just have to grow to a ridiculous level to accomodate it.
If you want a system that doesnt use dlevel, or some sort of Differnce between you and the mobs stats, all your stats would have to go up an exponetial rate, meaning your low level gear and weapons would be useless, you would need to have like 900 attack on level 50 weapons, and you gear bonuses would have to be insane to be effective.

Comparing your stats/level to the monsters stats allows for your stat choices to be more effective, not less.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

No proof needed. Its 1. Obvious and 2. Already proven. Kaeko did the math somewhere.

Need a field test? Go fight any HNM with a Lv1 weapon then switch to a Lv45+ weapon. Same damage.

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quoting this again because people can't read.

this isnt directing to anyone but, u can try tanking current NM with r45, come back later when you are r50. you can bring friends with different ranks to test stuff out really easy, but like most of the posters in this forum. Most arent even playing or past r40. So..

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

It's one of the few people around the communities who says "PROTECT AND SHELL DOES NOTHING!" without supplying parse data, which is even easier to get now. The logic behind it does nothing is that it's no longer -50% dt buffs, then they always say "you show us proof it works" despite the fact it's not the other people saying it doesn't work.

You're better off just ignoring his posts or not asking for reasoning.

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Your proof protect and shell works? Beyond you saying "it works," where is the proof? That isn't math. So excuse me while I don't use shell or protect because I take more damage with it on than off. Thx. Please get off your high horse. Is it that difficult to understand it doesn't work? You even posted they will "add more tiers" to protect in shell.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

. . . People keep saying it's broken but they aren't posting their parses to prove it. They'll rebalance it and probably add tiers like in XI but as of now . . . .

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You don't even know there are already multiple tiers of the spell available (ex. Shell I/II and Protect I/II) So please, you can remove yourself from this argument whenever you think possible.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

quoting this again because people can't read.

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Or because there's a lot more to it than just using a different ranked weapon.

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

Your proof protect and shell works? Beyond you saying "it works," where is the proof? That isn't math. So excuse me while I don't use shell or protect because I take more damage with it on than off. Thx. Please get off your high horse. Is it that difficult to understand it doesn't work? You even posted they will "add more tiers" to protect in shell. You don't even know there are already multiple tiers of the spell available (ex. Shell I/II and Protect I/II) So please, you can remove yourself from this argument whenever you think possible.

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Uhhh i havent done side by side comparisons, but i know for a fact that shell is very effective at reducing the magic damage i take.

Not in response to the above poster, but overall you guys are really bad at science. You have to test things only changing one variable, then you have to test it again on vastly different circumstances.

Using an NM as a test is a bad example, NMs have special properties, and you have no idea what those properties are. You have no idea what equations you could be dealing with for example

lets say the math looks like this,

damage = (minimum damage+ (minimum damage x(str/vit (attack/defense)) x differnce in level.

in this equation, if the monsters defense is high, your difference in attack becomes negligble,
so even if your str/vit was high with low attack, it would be negligable. also the weaker your str vs vit and attack versus defense are, the more your difference in level will become noticeable.
there is virtually no difference in this equation with having 20 attack, and having 120 attack, if the monsters defense is 900. your looking at cutting your damage bonus from stats getting cut from 1/10 to 1/100.
now in that equation, say minimum damage was 20, if your attack went from 20 to 200 you would only see 2 more damge per hit, and in range and you probably wouldnt even be able to tell the difference. however dlevel would be obvious, since your stats are getting negated by the monsters stats, it would just be your minimum damage and the dlevel that would be noticeable.

The point is testing on a NM hardest thing in the game, when your damage is doing 1/5th what it would be doing versus a normal monster its level, is foolish. It is a NM it has high stats, it may even have direct damage cuts.


however with this same equation, when normal monsters, and even high defense monsters have say 200-400 defense, you would notice a very large difference from 20 attack or 120 attack.

this is why UNTIL YOU KNOW A REAL EQUATION YOU CAN ONLY SPEAK OUT OF YOUR BUTTOCKS because there is any number of reasons for a behavior with only 1 test. i could write 1 million equations, and all could be wrong and fail to capture the true behavior of the relationship of stats in a variance

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

You don't even know there are already multiple tiers of the spell available (ex. Shell I/II and Protect I/II) So please, you can remove yourself from this argument whenever you think possible.

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Everyone knows there's multiple tiers and everyone knows their effectiveness overall was reduced, not broken, in November.

You just make it abundantly clear you have something against her.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

quoting this again because people can't read.

this isnt directing to anyone but, u can try tanking current NM with r45, come back later when you are r50. you can bring friends with different ranks to test stuff out really easy, but like most of the posters in this forum. Most arent even playing or past r40. So..

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The one who can't read are you. Everyone is bringing valid reasons, until something like you , evangela or kuro bring in this empiric sh*t.
Yes, rank vs rank it's the major factor in damage formula, BUT because stats aren't working. And when something isn't working, how your point is any good ?

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Originally Posted by Physic

ok people talking about hitting a rank 1 marmot and comparing it to something else, you should really stop, there are numerous reasons why this is often the case. point blank what i as a level 44 can do to a rank 1 marmot is totally irrelevant, because i get no exp for this. Take data based on monsters within a reasonable range of your charachter. test on things that are within 10 levels of you, or up to +15

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Yeah you know... Cause hitting Lv1 bunnies wasn't how we figured out the damage formulas in FFXI?

Lv1 mobs are fine because they are a controlled variable. Unfortunately the results here are way too skewed in the direction of DRNK > everything else.

No math yet, but this is what Kaeko/Kanikan posted on BG:

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[dev1027] Balancing of enemy attributes

This was the best tag I could find to fit this. One of the biggest balance issues in the game is currently the over-importance of level difference (dLVL) on all aspects of combat formulae. This is most apparent when fighting a mob much higher level than you and getting 1 shot for 3000+ damage; or likewise, being level 50 and fighting a lvl1 rat.

In XI, level difference affect formulas, but not nearly to the extent they do in XIV currently. The biggest issue with this is that the dLVL component of the formulas are so important that they make all other components like stats almost irrelevant. In order to balance stats, you must first balance the dLVL component of the formula, or stats will never matter.

Because of this, the current best attacks for high level mobs, especially NMs, are moves that IGNORE the level difference component. The best example is Shadowsear, which has static damage. DoTs also would count as they do the same damage regardless of level. Others include Punishing Barbs and Bloodletter. In case you haven't seen the trend, a lot (or most) of these moves are THM moves. This is why THM is the strongest damage dealer on hard mobs - they have the most moves ignoring the level difference in the formula.

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The above quote is also from the same person that did most of the theorycrafting for SP calculations - so not your average poster.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

quoting this again because people can't read.

this isnt directing to anyone but, u can try tanking current NM with r45, come back later when you are r50. you can bring friends with different ranks to test stuff out really easy, but like most of the posters in this forum. Most arent even playing or past r40. So..

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Actually no. I tanked Uraeus at Lv48 and Lv50 with the exact same gear. The difference was night and day. A much bigger difference than it should be. Also when I was fighting it at 48 we did another attempt with bronze gear... Same exact damage.

Edit: Is that the same Apple Pie from Beta on Wutai? I played Sagara Sousuke. lol

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Everyone knows there's multiple tiers and everyone knows their effectiveness overall was reduced, not broken, in November.

You just make it abundantly clear you have something against her.

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I have something against people who argue "show me proof". But the burden of proof is wholly on everyone's part. Can't claim it works and demand proof when you cannot yourself show proof.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Uhhh i havent done side by side comparisons, but i know for a fact that shell is very effective at reducing the magic damage i take.

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Where is your proof? Am I supposed to assume you are correct? Excuse me while I leave this topic now. It is people who have rank 50s and have done content and people who are less than rank 50 and assume they know how content works.

Edit: Nope, but I like your thinking nonetheless!

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Originally Posted by ApplePie

I have something against people who argue "show me proof". But the burden of proof is wholly on everyone's part. Can't claim it works and demand proof when you cannot yourself show proof.

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It's on everyone's part, but when someone slams a document down on your desk and says "THIS DOESN'T WORK!" don't you think normally, to support their assessment, you're given proof as to why it doesn't? And what's wrong with it? Then told to correct it? Even yoshida says the complex calculations for these spells need adjusting, but it wasn't broken or a bug, which was in one of the few premiere site Q&As sometime in feb or march.

You can eyeball that there's a small benefit to using protect and shell vs not using them (theres no way you can take more damage using -dt than not, I know I don't and I'm currently leveling conjurer on a new character), whereas you need parse data (more accurate assessment) to really see if it does what it should. It was overpowered prior to the novemeber adjustment, now it's just not as effective as it should be.

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[dev1027] Balancing of enemy attributes

This was the best tag I could find to fit this. One of the biggest balance issues in the game is currently the over-importance of level difference (dLVL) on all aspects of combat formulae. This is most apparent when fighting a mob much higher level than you and getting 1 shot for 3000+ damage; or likewise, being level 50 and fighting a lvl1 rat.

In XI, level difference affect formulas, but not nearly to the extent they do in XIV currently. The biggest issue with this is that the dLVL component of the formulas are so important that they make all other components like stats almost irrelevant. In order to balance stats, you must first balance the dLVL component of the formula, or stats will never matter.

Because of this, the current best attacks for high level mobs, especially NMs, are moves that IGNORE the level difference component. The best example is Shadowsear, which has static damage. DoTs also would count as they do the same damage regardless of level. Others include Punishing Barbs and Bloodletter. In case you haven't seen the trend, a lot (or most) of these moves are THM moves. This is why THM is the strongest damage dealer on hard mobs - they have the most moves ignoring the level difference in the formula.

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And this mean....?thm is op ?
Seriusly, we know stats are broken,and then level difference it's the only thing than matter. And that's because they fixing it. don't mean the current, or future, formula will work necessarly like before, or like ffxi

Really? Thats all you got from that quote... That THM was broken?

Heres the most important part because you seem to need help:

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The biggest issue with this is that the dLVL component of the formulas are so important that they make all other components like stats almost irrelevant. In order to balance stats, you must first balance the dLVL component of the formula, or stats will never matter.

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You cannot balance stats unless you balance dLVL. What this is saying is that your Rank vs Mob Rank plays such a huge factor that even the biggest changes in gears or stats is negligent. Just by lowering the dLVL portion of the formula that would make stats and gear matter.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

Seriusly, we know stats are broken,and then level difference it's the only thing than matter. And that's because they fixing it. don't mean the current, or future, formula will work necessarly like before, or like ffxi

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Seems a lot like what i'm saying.Basicly, fix the formula.

Then what are you asking for? What is the point of this thread?

Stats are broken because dLVL is the driving force in dmg calculations. People keep saying but stats are broken wait till they fix them then it will all make sense! NO stats will never be fixed unless they fix dLVL first. Being able to allocate stats makes testing easy, pick any mob above your lvl and go fight it with all base 16 stats (bring a tank and healer to hold mob). Then dump all your stat points into the attribute of your choice STR/INT w/e. it doesn't take complicated parsing to see that your dmg change going from 16 STR to 150 STR was only 20-25. Anything over 10 lvl's of you and dmg is virtually unchanged by adjusting stats. This ruins gear choices, custimization, stat builds, and allows every job to currently tank since defense doesn't play a big enough role in mitigating dmg its mostly dLVL. This is why most any job that can keep hate can tank anything we have right now.

Like I said, not much testing was needed to see this. I mean this shit was pretty apparent even in beta.

Edit: in before we're out of beta?

dLvl is broken ACROSS the board. It is WAY too dominant in crafting, battling, and gathering.
Nothing else matters. Your skills don't matter. Your traits don't matter. Your weapon barely even matters.

The entire system is a ruse meant to trick players into thinking what they do impacts their outcomes. They intended for it to be "less hardcore" and a more forgiving system, where elitists couldn't hold the game for ransom like they did in XI.

Unfortunately you can't fix that problem by creating a lie.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Really? Thats all you got from that quote... That THM was broken?

Heres the most important part because you seem to need help:



You cannot balance stats unless you balance dLVL. What this is saying is that your Rank vs Mob Rank plays such a huge factor that even the biggest changes in gears or stats is negligent. Just by lowering the dLVL portion of the formula that would make stats and gear matter.

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do you realize that mathematically the damage due to dlevel probably acts as a hyperbola, this means that at the extremes the effect is most noticeable, but when it is close the effect becomes negligeable.

Also when fighting something that overpowers your stats, and you are dealing with basically your minimum damage, dlevel will be the only thing you can easily change, like for example if a monster has a retarded amount of defense.
the fact that shadowsear ignores dlevel, may in fact be true, but what really makes it hax is it probably also ignores defense, static dots. Its like using spirits within on admantoise, its not hax because of delevel, its hax because it DOES DMG THAT DOESNT CHECK AGAINST A HIGH DEFENSE MONSTER. the same reason why bio would own a monster with low hp, but 90% damage reduction to attacks.

YOUR DATA IS NOT ENOUGH you are not looking at things with a formula, you are looking for direct line information, when the formula is probably way more complex.

In the formula on the past page you would notice the most difference by gaining a level, but you know what, your damage would still suck compared to everything else. this is because the NM ISNT hard because of DLEVEL its hard
BECAUSE OF ITS STATS. DLEVELS EFFECT IS STRONGEST WHEN THE LEVEL DIFFERENCES ARE DRASTIC. i can tell you right now, that DLEVEL IS NOT A DRASTIC FACTOR FOR MONSTERS UP TO 12 LEVELS HIGHER THAN YOU.
you know this because you can solo a monster 10 levels higher than you without a problem, and fight in groups monsters 17 levels higher without insane difficulty.

It is highly likely that it is not DLEVEL THAT IS CAUSING YOUR STATS TO BE NEGLIGIBLE ON AN NM but the fact that his stats outweigh yours by so much.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

dLvl is broken ACROSS the board. It is WAY too dominant in crafting, battling, and gathering.
Nothing else matters. Your skills don't matter. Your traits don't matter. Your weapon barely even matters.

The entire system is a ruse meant to trick players into thinking what they do impacts their outcomes. They intended for it to be "less hardcore" and a more forgiving system, where elitists couldn't hold the game for ransom like they did in XI.

Unfortunately you can't fix that problem by creating a lie.

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I like this!

this game is about rank and SE never accept this. they use dLvl to hide the truth about this game is completely unfinish and try to fix it quietly

^ mouthbreathing.

And thats why you use the Lv1 critters as the control because if it works one way the opposite is most likely the case.

You have yet to disprove anything using proof yet you keep asking for proof.