Dark Knight Megathread

Dark mind was very good this tier

Bumping this because I would rather not see this fade into obscurity with DRK in its current state of Warrior with more OGCD's since Shadowbringers (and making another thread about it really wouldn't help I imagine). Fixing Living Dead to not be garbage after 7 years and taking a bit under 4 yearsto make Blood Weapon give stacks to consistently get 5 GCD's in, despite being good changes, don't justify it, nor does it fix the identity issues. Doing some of the highest tank dps/absurd opener dps doesn't either.

So, let's review in depth.

Mp management and Combat: Before, it was something you had to actually watch and maintain. Especially the case in Heavensward, where Darkside drained it. While the drain effect was removed in Stormblood, you still had to spend it on TBN and Dark Arts. While this was the most spam heavy iteration of Dark Arts, you still had to pay attention to it because if you got careless you wouldn't have the mp for TBN or reactivating Grit.

But that's just what it is now with Edge/Flood of Shadow, right? Wrong.

Dark Arts functionality at the time already made the job feel different and more interesting; and particularly in most boss encounters, Blood Price wouldn't exactly be enough to recover the mp if you were careless with mp (especially as OT), and you would need to take time to build it up for using DA *or* TBN outside of Blood Weapon, so you still had to make sure you had enough for TBN, not that different to now. However, this was also easier at the time BECAUSE of blood weapon. It was on a 40s cooldown instead of 60s, and it also gave a haste so you used it more frequently for more frequent bursts, contrary to now where it's a borefest outside of every 2 minutes, Delirium was even on an 80s cooldown and gave MP AND extended Blood Weapon/Price by 8s/16s at the cost of 50 gauge instead of being washed inner release, so it was even better if that was coming off cooldown. Therein lies the feel of Management vs build-and-spend with MP via TBN and DA. The kit that's synergized. (quietus gave back mp as well, but that was mostly used in dungeons , obviously.)

TBN. This gave 50 gauge back, which felt more impactful because it meant it was a dps gain rather than dps neutral. However, I don't see them returning back to this unless they make it guaranteed after the duration ends, instead of just if it pops.
Darkside. There isn't much to be said. We don't even have to think about it since the basic rotation keeps it up for us if we aren't asleep at the keyboard, so it's a UI element that is borderline pointless because of it. As it was our dps stance prior, that's a more complicated issue about in general tank mechanics.

Living Shadow. Living Shadow is an overglorified DoT that feels unsatisfying to use. you press it and forget it, the UI element that displays the timer on it is pointless. Scourge at least was something we had to keep track of the timer on and felt fantastic to use every time. I'm fairly certain most of us would much rather have Scourge replace LS and be exactly how it was in Heavensward, using the UI timer that's currently used for Living Shadow.

Sustain: This may be a bit divisive, and I am among the people that don't mind how it is now but I can't exactly pretend it needs a small boost to keep up with the rest in dungeons. The return of Sole Survivor would almost surely remedy this.

Animations: If you went and took a look at prior animations DRK had if you weren't there, it feels criminal that they removed them. They felt much better to use than what we have currently, outside of the aoe combo, Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain because we still have those. Bloodspiller and Quietus are neat, but we use them so much currently they have largely lost their luster. Power slash felt better than Souleater, Scourge felt a lot better than Living Shadow, Dark Arts felt better to use than Edge/Flood, all by a country mile. Also blood price and sole survivor.

TL;DR: Review time because bump. BW and LD changes didn't make DRK not WAR with more OGCD's. MP management actually existed instead of practically non-existent, Dark Arts amplified abilities and made them feel better to use. Delirium had its own effect by providing MP and boosting the duration of Blood Weapon/Price (in stormblood. it ALSO would have fixed the BW-GCD issue had they just reverted either or both effects). Darkside is something we don't even think about and Living Shadow is press and forget and makes both of their respective UI elements feel pointless. At least half of the animations are underwhelming. The kit that was synergized felt a lot better to play and perform than a build-and-spend, press and forget, kit.

Expecting any sort of rework before 7.0 is hopeless at best, but I don't believe staying silent about it's current issues here will help in the slightest, either.

DRK likely wont even see attention in 7.0 or later given that the balancing philosophy of this game is hyperfocused on how the jobs perform for exactly 1 week out of an 8month cycle where people are tackling very specific content for the first time.

And because DRK had a big number there, the only number that matters, its likely viewed as fine.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

DRK likely wont even see attention in 7.0 or later given that the balancing philosophy of this game is hyperfocused on how the jobs perform for exactly 1 week out of an 8month cycle where people are tackling very specific content for the first time.

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Yup, 7.0 is the absolute earliest (and best time, realistically) to rework Dark Knight. All the larger systemic and general gameplay (i.e 2 minute snooze meta) changes happen on expansion launch.

Add on the across the board graphical upgrade we're recieving in 7.0, it would also be the best time to ramp up animations (and not just for DRK, either. I've already said that piece for DRK in that in my prior comment)

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Originally Posted by Oizen

And because DRK had a big number there, the only number that matters, its likely viewed as fine.

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This point in particular is an unfortunate one, because it could easily be the case. It should be relatively common knowledge the main reason it soared in this tier for week 1 and 2 is because the tank balance (dps wise) was, and potentially still is, skewed and poor. If DRK was still doing relatively as much damage as Warrior it wouldn't have been nearly as used.

That said, it further proves we should continue provide the feedback here and comment, if they do check the threads here, silence will only further let them view DRK's job design as fine as is.

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

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I generally hope dark gets a soft rework at least, I think if you compare SHB to EW viewing how many Jobs got reworks and SMN got a overhaul I feel like Dark knight was one of the jobs that got the least changes, DRK generally feels similar to SHB drk just a bit more busy, compared to the other tanks DRK really didn't get anything this expansion. I believe DRK also got a major rework from stormblood > Shadowbringers (I think I didn't play In stormblood). So it makes sense why they would want to wait on changes.

"High play rate" I don't know what you mean in savage or in general? In savage generally it's highly played because DRK/GNB meta while WAR is a niche easy pick and PLD's just a job you play for fun (It really doesn't bring much to a raid group currently) In general high play rate in savage is down to Popularity, Meta & Ease of use, I doubt DRK would be as popular if it did worse damage then Warrior.

Good Things dark could have added in the future: (my hopes for 7.0)
1. More Sustain, I think drk should get a slow overtime sustain, it doesn't need to be super powerful.
2. More "magic" attacks, DRK currently doesn't feel like the "magic tank" shouldn't need to copy PLD but it should have some identity with magic at the same time.
3. More of a gcd rotation, while it doesn't have to be "complicated" the basic 1, 2, 3 really just doesn't feel good during downtime, even warrior is more exciting.

Generally don't feel like they need to hard rework DRK but they certainly need to build ontop of what we got, I'd like boring stuff like your shadow or salted earth to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

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The high play rate is mostly referencing high end content but it was pretty widespread. Even with it topping tank dps charts the number of recorded Dark Knight parses were much on the lower end because of Blood Weapon and Living Dead. Living Dead in particular made DRK more of a hindrance because the invuln was actual dogwater. So once they got resolved, even with its current identity and gameplay issues, [some] of the issues that hardcore raiders and a noticeable amount of the casual playerbase complained about disappeared because it was no longer a pain to optimize. That said, it is most definitely brought to high end content almost purely because it's burst dps is absolutely ridiculous for a tank and that keeps it topping next to gunbreaker. If it wasn't for that dps, groups would either bring Warrior or Paladin because they, in this case, would bring more to the table. Paladin in particular brings plenty of party support in the forms of Divine Veil, that wings move I forgot the name of, and Cover, even if it gets memed on sometimes since they nerfed it in ShB, and clemency if you *really* need it, but ideally shouldn't. (Although this tier heavily favors DRK defensively from what I've heard)

As for the wishlist, if they were to earnestly move forward with current DRK and revamp it, this is mine.

1. Power Slash replaces Souleater, Scourge replaces Living Shadow as a maintained DoT. Scourge would add something to use outside of your bursts.
2. Improve the animation to Salt and Darkness. It isn't *bad*, but it is underwhelming. Or reduce the amount of OGCD's in the 2 minute burst phase to give it another combo action after it that *looks* and *feels* powerful to use after waiting so long just to press Salted Earth to begin with.
3. (seriously please reduce the amount of OGCD's we need to press during our 2 minute.)
4. The biggest one for me is make Delirium do literally anything else. Revert it to it's Stormblood variant, do *something* with it that isn't IR without guaranteed direct crits.
5. All DRK needs for sustain is Sole Survivor, that's it.
6. To tack onto 5, make Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain have a 30s cooldown instead of 60.
7. Make Shadowbringer an upgraded action to Flood of Shadow upon activating revamped delirium (see #4). Add another upgraded action to Edge of Shadow, it would be interesting to see what they come up with. each would only have one use until next Delirium and still cost 3k MP.
8. increase Blood Gauge gain somehow to make up for revamped Delirium if reverted to Stormblood iteration. Whether it's by a trait to Blood Weapon or added back to Salted Earth.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I don't see DRK getting a rework. Already we have DRG and AST confirmed a Ninja tier rework for 7.0 also considering how popular DRK is don't see it changing outside of traits that augment OGCD like carve and split,
perhaps even more "combo" ogcd like salted earth.

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To be fair, the Ninja rework was for the most just making it's mudras GCD'S and buffing their potencies if I'm remembering right. That core mechanic alone being reworked changed Ninja for the better. I have hopes covered by a blanket of caution for DRG and AST hearing it's more Ninja styled. Paladin other the other hand..uh..I won't get into. not the thread and we haven't even seen it yet. (Although, most of us can guess the direction it'll take.)

Anyway. You do make a fair point in saying it may not land in 7.0 due to it, but it could come in later major patches. That and DRK is popular for the aesthetic and the dps it deals out of the tanks. there are people that like how it currently plays, but let's not fool ourselves too much.

As long as they make the combo OGCD's work in a way that doesn't make the already bloated opener/2m worse, I'm for it. I made my wishlist above for whatever they do with DRK in 7.X, so I won't list the wall of text again

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I disagree highly with giving DRK any kind of HoT effects it can put on others. Not because it doesn't need sustain -- I assure you, it absolutely does -- but because that's not the way the job should receive said sustain.
We are, after all, in a Final Fantasy game. Being able to put healing effects on your allies is the domain of White Magic and Holy Knights/Paladins; Dark Knights sustain themselves selfishly, with Blood equipment and Drain magic.
Not to mention that giving a cure potency to Oblation is just... turning it into Aurora. With extra mitigation, so Aurora+. Given that DRK and GNB already occupy parallel positions as "higher damage, lower survival" tanks, cloning Aurora is just begging for homogeny.

Instead, I propose DRK take a step backward and return to using direct "heal for damage dealt" effects. Take the 300p cure off Souleater and the 200p/target off Abyssal Drain, and just make them heal based on damage dealt like they did in HW/SB.
Not only is this significantly more powerful for a tank since we don't have the cure potency bonuses healers receive, but it would give a slight differentiation between DRK and WAR in terms of "life draining" discussions; WAR heals for a fixed amount whenever it swings encouraging you to be reckless, DRK only heals for what it drains with specific attacks encouraging you to be methodical.

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This, mostly.

Though, since we have no way of increasing our Souleater damage outside of just receiving raid buffs, I don't see how it'd be any more deliberate in that particular example.

Moving the healing over to Edge/Flood or Bloodspiller/Quietus where we actually have control, on the other hand, would offer more of that "deliberate" feeling I agree would best fit for DRK. It still wouldn't make a difference between flat healing and damage-based healing, but it would at least allow for a more "deliberate" and conjoined spin on self-healing.

Now, if we hugely revised DRK's damage dynamics, such as by funneling things back towards (say, a more bankable) Blood Weapon or Dark Arts in place of Edge/Flood, then sure, Souleater would fit. It just doesn't currently offer any control to differentiate flat healing from damage-based healing.

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Granted, all that is coming from a "WAR isn't worth salvaging" approach. If we actually cared about revitalizing its own peak identity from (or as pointed to) within XIV, it's Defiance<->Deliverance balance/synergies would actually situate damage-based healing even better than any (extension/revitalization) of DRK's XIV themes would.

(I don't think flat vs. damage-based without means of influence actually makes a lick of difference, though, so that's mostly irrelevant for the time being. DRK could be given damage-based healing and lose it later, or they could both have it, or whatever else, and any good revamp of either job would still feel good... for any/all the other reasons the revamps provide.)

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.

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As much as I would like to have Abyssal Drain back to being spammable, unless they make it some sort of replacement or upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or in a rework of DRK in itself, I don't see them bringing it back.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Never mind sole survivor, make abyssal drain a 2.5 gcd spell again.

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A few small things:

• Abyssal Drain did not, itself, heal. If you want an Abyssal Drain that heals as it did before, it'd also cost you a third of your MP per use (combined costs of DA+AD). It also hit for barely more than Unleash, meaning it'd incur further opportunity cost relative to the Unleash-Stalwart combo.
• Abyssal Drain healed for little per target hit, and no serious content contains mobs enough to make it a noticeable source of healing per execute. If the sustain issue would extend beyond dungeoning alone, that probably isn't the right shape of a "solution" for the issue at hand.
• Returning Abyssal Drain to the GCD will cost you its present free 240n potency and 200n cure potency per minute (or, at opportunity cost of just a flat 510 potency -- a bonus of at least 210p and 600cp by 3 targets).

Now, you could craft an improved/revised spammable-GCD Abyssal Drain, but still... why necessarily have it on the GCD at all, instead of just having it, say, replace Flood as a spammable oGCD?

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Originally Posted by Zairava

To be fair, the Ninja rework was for the most just making it's mudras GCD'S and buffing their potencies if I'm remembering right.

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It also removed an entire combo (Shadowfang as a two-step DoT combo), replacing it with a Sonic Thrust knock-off.

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As long as they make the combo OGCD's work in a way that doesn't make the already bloated opener/2m worse, I'm for it.

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Sadly, it necessarily would. If the activator is to be used within the two-minute burst cycle, the only way for its second-stage oGCD (a la Salt and Darkness) not to also be used within that period is to literally run out of weave-space, which would mean the problem is already as bad as it can get and DRK would have no room for defensives over its two minute bursts.

Granted, if you wanted to rein back the burst APM and spread it over the lulls instead, the solution is pretty simple: Slap a mana cost onto Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit, increase their potency accordingly, and then increase MP generation to compensate for the extra 6k MP consumed per average minute while toning oGCD damage down also in due compensation (i.e., for the same total DPS under a meta comp). Total APM and DPS stays the same, but there are now fewer Edges bloating ones burst casts (despite keeping almost exactly the same burstiness), and more to do between burst cycles.

Reply to Zairava
I'll firstly just go over Paladin, Right now it's really not a good tank, while passage of arms (Plds wings) and DV are a advantage, keep in mind Passage is a weird cone, not a dps loss but sometimes a pain to use correctly, DV is similar to warriors shake it off, but just worse, I don't really think bringing a extra raid mitigation does enough, I'd hope they'd just make DV function essentially as shake (just press it and it works, also give yourself a barrier), rework passage so you don't have to angle it, even then It wouldn't be a massive bonus to bring into a raid but a actual upside to PLD having a consistent second raid buff. In general I want PLD to be pretty strong defensively and supportive, while obviously having the drawback of lowest damage (only by a bit considering how important DPS is even on tanks).

I don't really think current PLD has any benefit to be run it's currently too weak defensively and has poor damage, Invul normally gets less uses then all the other tanks, the upside being wings? like sure ok it "can" be good depending on the fight, I really don't count cover as a upside it's a bit of a stretch, cover's just so redundant it would make sense with old aggro management or if it mitigated damage like in storm blood (I think?) clemency already defensively taxes itself by being a big damage loss Imo, Warrior would just be a good general pick for being easier to play and having great sustain. In general I'd like them to look at Plds defensive kit in general (cover most importantly).

With Dark knight, I think "all tanks" should more of a higher skill celling in general, TBN doesn't really feel rewarding to me as it's a net neutral gain, it's more like "cool I got a proc I don't lose damage yippie" if you gained like a small amount of damage, that would generally be actually be very cool and fun to optimise because now you think more about using it in niche situations to get extra damage, obviously it can't reward too much but having a small way to optimise is really neat, I think more jobs should have ways to optimise and be rewarded for it currently the game plays it so safe with Job design.

I generally agree with a lot of your list I don't think a bit more sustain would hurt in general on drk but "sole survivor" would certainly feel good in pulls, I wouldn't want it to just press the "funny heal button" like warrior and have a easy time healing in big pulls which makes it really boring for healers, I like the idea of tanks & healers both working together to sustain yourself and mitigate properly in raids in general sustain isn't as useful but it's nice to have a bit as a tank, but DRK should keep its strong barrier focus, I also strongly agree with removing some OGCD's I like drk to be "busy" but it shouldn't be super busy, that's already gunbreakers thing. eitherway it should generally feel a bit more fast paced then war/pld in my head.

I'm pretty burnt out on their approach to job design and reworks. Needless to say, hoping on them to manage a shot in the dark every 4 years (that's a person 1/15th lifespan btw) is nuts.

I think the PVP team has done an infinitely better job in such a small window of time. I think its time to pass the baton to those guys.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It also removed an entire combo (Shadowfang as a two-step DoT combo), replacing it with a Sonic Thrust knock-off.

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Ah right. I didn't get nin to cap that long before the rework dropped.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sadly, it necessarily would. If the activator is to be used within the two-minute burst cycle, the only way for its second-stage oGCD (a la Salt and Darkness) not to also be used within that period is to literally run out of weave-space, which would mean the problem is already as bad as it can get and DRK would have no room for defensives over its two minute bursts.

Granted, if you wanted to rein back the burst APM and spread it over the lulls instead, the solution is pretty simple: Slap a mana cost onto Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit, increase their potency accordingly, and then increase MP generation to compensate for the extra 6k MP consumed per average minute while toning oGCD damage down also in due compensation (i.e., for the same total DPS under a meta comp). Total APM and DPS stays the same, but there are now fewer Edges bloating ones burst casts (despite keeping almost exactly the same burstiness), and more to do between burst cycles.

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I would actually be more in favor of making the burst phase more GCD heavy with enough OGCD's to keep us weaving. The biggest question for that, however, lies in how that may be accomplished.

Personally, I'm for giving Shadowbringer an mp cost and reducing it down to one charge on the same cooldown, same with Carve and Spit, but I would, yes, still like it on a 30s cooldown.I will absolutely run this into the ground, but Scourge would help this, plus giving us something to do outside of bursts with Carve and Spit. Going back to said "biggest question" though, revolved around upgrading actions, though it could be personal bias towards something like that.

As a concept, Delirium could upgrade our GCD's, and to knock out 2 birds with one stone, is a perfect method to bring back old abilities and animations. if not Delirium, that's something that Dark Arts could do on a 60 or 120s cooldown. This would also more or less how we would access abyssal drain as an upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or Dark Passenger with it's blind effect, new GCD combo, etc., without inherently making the bursts and opener obnoxious thanks to Shadowbringer and Carve and Spit having an mp cost. I would bargain to say Delirium could go back to being an mp restoration tool with these changes as well, since Edge/Flood would be used much less than they are now.

The biggest issue I see arising out of this concept, however, is where could they go from there?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

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At least personally, I haven't had any issues actually tanking with Paladin, that's in a pretty good spot I feel, the outliers being cover being getting its (self)mitigation removed in ShB and divine Veil being a hassle to proc in an age where having the CD on demand is the way to go (as much as I like the functionality). The PoA can be used as an OGCD party or self mit but the timing is tight and in general not worth going for (outside of for yourself). The biggest issue for it for me is the damage you deal by yourself as PLD is low compared to the other tanks and it is *felt*. This is due to it being sustained damage vs. fitting in the current 2-minute burst design though. (which is why, unfortunately, it's being reworked.)

I do believe all tanks should have a higher skill ceiling (I feel like GNB is in a relatively good spot for that, actually), although I'm not sure how they would go about it. I'm hard pressed they would give us personal enmity management and considering their current rework history outside of Monk and 5.1 ninja...yeah.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I would actually be more in favor of making the burst phase more GCD heavy with enough OGCD's to keep us weaving.

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I think that'd work perfectly fine, too. I think you'll find at least a few such mock-ups, including one of my own (and, closest to what you've mentioned with Delirium, Archwizard's) within this thread.

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The biggest issue I see arising out of this concept, however, is where could they go from there?

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While I don't think that concern ought to preclude changes in the upcoming expansion on the basis just that it might need yet another rehaul after (so long as the 7.x version ends up better than what we have now) nor do I think we can afford to purposely delay what fun additions we can imagine today just for additions in 8.0, 9.0, etc... I agree that it is an important question. I'll need more time to think on it, though, before I can do a decent mock-up that accounts for what could be done down the line.

Sidenote: I think an even stronger constraint that could be worth waiting for, though, is what ought to be done for tanking as an entire role -- and not just in the sense of contextual gameplay (pre-positioning bosses, coordinating mitigation CDs back and forth with one's cotank, etc.) or bloated systems like our former Enmity "management". There's tons more that each tank job could enjoyably include... if the role were so permitted.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

As much as I would like to have Abyssal Drain back to being spammable, unless they make it some sort of replacement or upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or in a rework of DRK in itself, I don't see them bringing it back.

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Very easily could do this with potency and MP costs, but for some reason everything DRK has must cost exactly 3kmp

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Originally Posted by Zairava

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I don't wanna get into PLD's issues as this is more for Dark knights but I guess I'll respond. While you can Proc your own DV now, you don't really have 100% control over it, as you have to be inside your req window, it's still pretty annoying at times and unintuitive, it's also weird how it has no effect on the pld themselves. POA is generally a party only mit too, as you snap shot it, generally you never wanna hold it, it might be good in a situation where you 1. Need to kitchen sink 2. don't have shelltron/holyshelltron up for extra mitigation but you never really should be using it as a personal for yourself, it's also a dps loss (usually) if you want to make sure it will go through on yourself, it's meant to be a weird cone snap shot ability, which I feel just needs to be reworked.

Also While PLD is a "strong sustain" tank keep in mind it's burst healing (unlike warrior) is all tied to rotation so a lot of the time you just end up wasting your sustain unlike warrior, In general I'd want a way of PLD to have more control over their big burst sustain (something like a OGCD heal, maybe targetable), but reduce reqs general healing rate to make up for that, another issue with PLD is lacking 1-2 personals, Keep in mind tanks normally have one personal CD: Thrill, Camo, Dark Mind but also have a "mini short cd" in Oblation, Equilibrium, Auora PLD lacks something like that with weird clunky upsides such as Cover? and sure 2 raid wides, but very inconsistent raid wides, don't forget tanks get all reprisal on a short 60 seconds CD, so POA is really not a great upside Imo considering the other tanks generally have something up in raid damage situations.

I'm a PLD main so I don't want to come across as "make my tank op" I generally think PLD should be the weakest DPS tank, it makes sense for the "shield tank with holy white magic" to be strong in supportive and tanking elements, obviously damage balance needs to be careful you can't have tanks too far behind.

General tank stuff:
I think tanks need a few things 1. Higher skill ceiling, tanks already have short CD's reward proper use of it. 2. More Varity in CD's Personal 30% good example would be making them all slightly more unique to each tank (Like warriors) 3. Some actual Pros and Cons, Tanks Like Gunbreaker shouldn't do great damage and be amazing defensively while tanks like PLD struggle to keep up 4. Shorten the Timer differences between invul (30 seconds apart instead of 1 minute apart), Tanks like PLD feel even more weaker considering invul uptime, obviously as PLD has the best effect it still needs to be the longest

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Very easily could do this with potency and MP costs, but for some reason everything DRK has must cost exactly 3kmp

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That's something I don't really get either, and I don't really know what to say about it. It's that odd piece that doesn't really make sense. More could be done with MP if everything costed a bit less, but for now we're stuck with it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think that'd work perfectly fine, too. I think you'll find at least a few such mock-ups, including one of my own (and, closest to what you've mentioned with Delirium, Archwizard's) within this thread.


While I don't think that concern ought to preclude changes in the upcoming expansion on the basis just that it might need yet another rehaul after (so long as the 7.x version ends up better than what we have now) nor do I think we can afford to purposely delay what fun additions we can imagine today just for additions in 8.0, 9.0, etc... I agree that it is an important question. I'll need more time to think on it, though, before I can do a decent mock-up that accounts for what could be done down the line.

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I've thought about this over the course of my shift last night and a few things popped into my head.

Say the action upgrade changes I had listed applied to Delirium actually happened to DRK in 7.X. With Blood Weapon, you should be able to get 2 edge/flood in a single 2-minute burst window. Though, this obviously means you will lose out on the second edge if you don't pop DA. Which is something we suffer from now even, so nothing new there.

So... if these did indeed happen in 7.X, what would possibly come after, especially the capstone? I have an idea, and it involves Blood Weapon.

• the capstone would be that activating Blood Weapon upgrades Carve and Spit into a new, stronger ability for a single use during Blood Weapon.
• Before obtaining this capstone, Blood Weapon just boosts Carve and Spit's potency to 600 at level 72 or something.
• Scourge would be obtained at 80 (blah blah, LS blah blah) and would get a potency upgrade of 10 or 20 at lvl 94 or 96
• Sole Survivor, if brought back, would be reduced from a 120s cd to a 90s cd at 92 or 98

-I have an image for a possible opener with all this, but I couldn't figure out how to actually make it show up, so it's just in reserves until I find out how)
What happens after that?. It's a bit preemptive to say it now...however, at that capstone. I've gotten as far as the upgraded Carve and Spit proccing something called Bathed in Blood, however I'm not entirely sure what it would do since I haven't got that far. Anything else is up for debate as it won't be until far later, really. We don't even have the 7.X variant yet.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Sidenote: I think an even stronger constraint that could be worth waiting for, though, is what ought to be done for tanking as an entire role -- and not just in the sense of contextual gameplay (pre-positioning bosses, coordinating mitigation CDs back and forth with one's cotank, etc.) or bloated systems like our former Enmity "management". There's tons more that each tank job could enjoyably include... if the role were so permitted.

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This would require some thought required out of my not tired brain...I'll need to get back on that later. I had some ideas brewing last night that would only require every tank jobs current kit, but I need to finalize them.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

As much as I would like to have Abyssal Drain back to being spammable, unless they make it some sort of replacement or upgrade to Flood of Shadow, or in a rework of DRK in itself, I don't see them bringing it back.

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Tbh I do think AD and FoS should swap positions. FoS becomes the move attached to CnS, AD becomes the spammable MP move. Though I'd buff AD's damage to the equivalent of EoS with a falloff for every other target hit, and have it heal for 400 potency per use with no Darkside gain, so we have both a good sustain move and something that encourages us to still use Edge. If I had my way, TBN's cost would be Darkside timer (giving it back when it's broken successfully), and Souleater would actually heal for the exact amount of damage it deals (since at endgame you lose more than that in a single auto).

Abyssal Drain at the moment could be changed to just give a higher cure potency per target and its CD could be lowered to 30 seconds for dungeon sustain, while damage should be removed.
A good change would be perhaps to make it so instead of healing for a potency it could be replaced with something like this:

- Sole survivor 60 secs CD.
Marks all nearby enemies with "Another victim" for 10 seconds. Another victim effect: Damage dealt to target heals for half the attack potency. ( ex: Edge of Shadow will heal you for 230 heal potency ).

This would surely solve many issues with DRK's sustain in dungeons, making it at least be able to get all of its HP back properly per mob pack. It'd also solve issues in single target situations where you cannot under any circumstance recover HP till now.

Personally I don't understand the hate for Living Shadow, it is a "fancy DoT" sure, but it at least looks cool, has lore connections to the job, and on a technical level, it is meant to not be an extra status effect on the boss, since this game has a relatively low hard cap on how many of those an actor can be affected by at once.

On Sole Survivor, I don't think it would work with how the game evolved since it got axed, it worked when AoE combos cost far more TP than ST ones so people had to single target as well in large pulls, making it so some enemies would fall faster than others giving a good sustain during battle... now everyone just goes AoE all the time so the mobs all die around the same time, making it so Sole Survivor would just give a large burst of healing when the fight is over already.

To me the awnser to our sustain dilemma is already in the game... just give PVE the PVP Salted Earth, remove the pull effect and the DR since it would be to good with those too... This would also solve a few of the more critical flaws of DRK.

First it would obvioulsy give us some much needed sustain, albeit one with at least some skill ceiling to use since you would need to actually stay on top of it to get the full effect of the heals.

Second it would give some reasons for our most useless skill to exist, making it an integral part of our defensive kit.

Third it would also give us some identity to the job here there is none to be found currently... making us the "immobile" tank, who must first pre-plan his positioning so we don't need to move during Salted Earth, just like BLM don't want to move away from their Ley Lines, since we are after all the "magic tanks".

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I've gotten as far as the upgraded Carve and Spit proccing something called Bathed in Blood, however I'm not entirely sure what it would do since I haven't got that far.

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'Next Bloodspiller (or Quietus) strikes 3 times' or something i guess, a bit boring maybe but i'll take 'boring' over 'haha doubleweave another ogcd with Salt and Darkness'

Seeing PLD's rework I have faith DRK can have nice things too, so I will try to express those nice things here as far as my opinion of having played the job goes.

Current bloodgauge is a copy of Warrior's. I'd like to see something like this to make it different:
-> Gaining blood works the same it does now. With 75 you can do a 3 ability combo ( each attack costing 25 blood ) which starts with Bloodspiller. ( similar to RDM ) Bloodspiller would need to be changed to AoE and have a fall off. Quietus can be removed as it doesn't seem to be that flashy, maybe add 2 new abilities which are beautiful and flashy but for DRK, like PLD got its Blade of Faith combo. Or older abilities like Scourge, getting the PLD Goring Blade treatment.
-> Using Delirium grants 3 stacks allowing the execution of Bloodgauge actions without cost. So you can do this combo twice if you wanted during burst. One time from your gained blood, and one time from Delirium.

DRK's healing is lacking both in on demand (ex: Equilibrium) and rotationally (ex: PLD's Confiteur Combo, GNB's Aurora)
-> Remove the MP cost from TBN, add 5 seconds to its CD, but Dark Arts makes the next Edge / Flood heal you for potency equal to damage dealt. You use Edge of Shadow when you are about to maximize on MP normally, so this would help a bit, and you use it in dungeons a lot. This would solve the rotational healing issue. Alternatively, Dark Arts can just grant a flat potency heal when using the next Edge or Flood if specific values are desired for rotational healing.
-> Sole Survivor can come back under a form like this maybe:
"Marks targeted enemy and all nearby enemies with Abyssal Drain status.
Abyssal Drain: Attacks dealt to this target will heal the DRK who applied this mark over time."

Basically, if everyone from the party is attacking the DRK gets healed. Works in dungeons and in raids.

DRK has too many mitigation buttons that try to accomplish the same thing: Dark Mind and Oblation. No other tank has to weave 4 defensives to accomplish what others can with 2. ( 30% + TBN + Oblation + Dark Mind vs 30% + Heart of Corondum )
-> Merge them into the same ability. Oblation could grant 20% magic damage reduction with a further 10% against all damage types. The CD can be kept the same, or lowered to 45 seconds per charge.

Living Shadow is a fire and forget ability which acts similarly to a DoT.
-> Instead it can give you stacks of "Enhanced Darkside", increasing your damage by a further 20% on top of Darkside's passive 10%. These stacks can be displayed next to the Fray red icon instead of the duration, or along with the duration. You can get a cool visual effect like Fray is enveloping your character.

Honestly at this point with the amount of self healing that Warrior and PLD have it makes no sense that DRK shouldnt be way ahead in damage. Gunbreaker heart of corundum is still really good and in many cases better than TBN.

7.0 we can expect some changes to DRK but it needs to be between 1-90. Not just all new skills adding in self healing.

Living shadow should be more involved. Even if its down to where it copies your OGCD's when out instead of being completely random would be better or giving it a salted earth interaction that we can use once its summoned.

Oblation needs to be updated and do more. DRK has so much mitigation and little to no self sustain. You already have the tools in PVP.

Oblation- 10% mitigation and 10% of health restored once the effect ends.
Salted Earth- heals the DRK while standing in it.
Enhanced unmend needs to change to enhanced Bloodspiller + to where when you use Bloodspiller it applies sole survivor to the target.
Abyssal Drain- Remove it or separate it from CS and make it deal 0 damage but increase the healing received from the first target and have falloff for the remaining targets and put on a charge system.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'Next Bloodspiller (or Quietus) strikes 3 times' or something i guess, a bit boring maybe but i'll take 'boring' over 'haha doubleweave another ogcd with Salt and Darkness'

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Yeah, the last thing DRK needs is another underwhelming ogcd (especially considering we have so many past animations we would vastly prefer if it would just be another salt and darkness)

Something that comes to mind is that Bathed in Blood would give us access to a free use of either an upgraded version of Bloodspiller (whether it's just buffing its potency and tacking on a 200p heal, or otherwise) and an amplified free use of abyssal drain outside of Delirium (this is going off my earlier concept of upgraded gcds through Delirium or DA on a 60/120s cooldown), using one or the other of course.

If using just C&S would be awkward because single target in aoe, Blood Weapon could also give a new, upgraded version of salted earth. Upon using this, it would still grant Bathed in Blood, which would still grant upgraded and free bloodspiller, and use of abyssal drain outside of Delirium/DA.

This sounds great and all, but I'm gonna take ItsUrBoi's response because something he mentions comes into play here:

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

Current bloodgauge is a copy of Warrior's. I'd like to see something like this to make it different:
-> Gaining blood works the same it does now. With 75 you can do a 3 ability combo ( each attack costing 25 blood ) which starts with Bloodspiller. ( similar to RDM ) Bloodspiller would need to be changed to AoE and have a fall off. Quietus can be removed as it doesn't seem to be that flashy, maybe add 2 new abilities which are beautiful and flashy but for DRK, like PLD got its Blade of Faith combo. Or older abilities like Scourge, getting the PLD Goring Blade treatment.
-> Using Delirium grants 3 stacks allowing the execution of Bloodgauge actions without cost. So you can do this combo twice if you wanted during burst. One time from your gained blood, and one time from Delirium.

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Quietus, with these changes i have listed plus this, would more or less pointless outside of mp generation, which it doesn't even have baseline now. Quietus could be used for the aoe after bloodspiller, or could be used as the first aoe before bloodspiller, and the third aoe up for speculation.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

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In general, I don't have the energy to why PLD's rework is a disappointment outside of sheltron and bulwark returning. What they did to it isn't surprising at all.

Anyway. Scourge coming back in any fashion is fine by me, it feels good to use whether or not it turns into yet another 30/60s CD.

I don't have much of an opinion on the mana cost on TBN at this point, I never minded it that much but if it's hindering the design of the job the cost is best removed and placed elsewhere. DA giving us an on demand heal when DA procs would be nice, I don't see this as likely happening, though.

Sole survivor coming back at all would be nice. if it was our form of lifesteal outside of abyssal drain it would be wonderful. I believe it should be based on us hitting the enemy rather than everyone in the party though. Want to keep the Sole survivor shtick, y'know?

I'm for merging oblation and dark mind. It would help the lower-level experience tremendously.

You mean Living Shadow being us embracing our Darkside entirely more or less? I'm for it. A cooler aura than the Darkside we ended up with would be fantastic to have. The skill might need to be renamed, but it would be better.

With what we have said, I believe we are getting further into what could be something that works.

• Delirium/DA grants GCD combos via upgraded 1-2-3 + aoe or we take properties from both IR and req, where it still gives us 3 stacks to use on free gauge actions, but it grants a free combo rather than just using bloodspiller 3 times. Which would be Quietus -> [aoe]Bloodspiller -> [aoe]???, and otherwise costs 75 gauge to complete. Currently we dump 50 gauge on bloodspiller which takes 3 Souleaters (20 gauge each without BW), so the filler [gcd] combo would need to generate at least 25 gauge baseline instead of 20 each use.
• Shadowbringer is lowered to one charge on a mana cost to reduce ogcd bloat during burst
• Bringing Scourge back in some form, seriously. Can't simp for it enough, it was one of the best animations in the game still to this day. Depending on which route is taken of the two listed, it would likely be best as either a 30s cd (or a DoT), or used in the gauge combo as an aoe, or as an upgraded part of the 1-2-3 through delirium.
• Blood Weapon functions the same mostly, except it also grants a new, upgraded version of Carve and Spit and salted earth. (Remember, Bathed in Blood is an idea roughly for 8.0, but it could be squashed into 7.0 if they really wanted to). Gauge generation would likely need to be adjusted with gauge now having its own combo if they went that route.
• Reminder that Carve and Spit would be on a 30s cooldown given earlier ideas, so you would still be using it on cooldown, but now at least it's something more.
• If Delirium went the route of free gauge combo, Bathed in Blood would instead just give you a 30-50 potency boost and [400-500]mp regen per action on your gauge combo for 15 seconds. Or just make it 6 stacks for 30 if the timing would be too strict.
• merging Dark Mind and Oblation
• Sole Survivor returns, acts as a lifesteal when you hit the enemy. 200 or 300 potency when you hit them or something.
• Living Shadow is revamped and is a flat damage buff of 10/20% with, say, 3 or 6 stacks. stays on a 120 second cooldown.

As a side note I'm later realizing, if LS is to remain on the gauge, the gauge combo cost would either need to be reduced, the gauge generation would need to buffed tremendously during BW so you can get 2 gauge combos in your opener, or LS has its gauge cost removed. Not entirely sure what route would be best here.
I shouldn't need to say this, but for those who need it, yes, this is taking into account any and all possible potency adjustments needed for the job to not be completely cracked

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly at this point with the amount of self healing that Warrior and PLD have it makes no sense that DRK shouldnt be way ahead in damage. Gunbreaker heart of corundum is still really good and in many cases better than TBN.

7.0 we can expect some changes to DRK but it needs to be between 1-90. Not just all new skills adding in self healing.

Living shadow should be more involved. Even if its down to where it copies your OGCD's when out instead of being completely random would be better or giving it a salted earth interaction that we can use once its summoned.

Oblation needs to be updated and do more. DRK has so much mitigation and little to no self sustain. You already have the tools in PVP.

Oblation- 10% mitigation and 10% of health restored once the effect ends.
Salted Earth- heals the DRK while standing in it.
Enhanced unmend needs to change to enhanced Bloodspiller + to where when you use Bloodspiller it applies sole survivor to the target.
Abyssal Drain- Remove it or separate it from CS and make it deal 0 damage but increase the healing received from the first target and have falloff for the remaining targets and put on a charge system.

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Some added functionality to salted earth would be nice, whether it's the heal or a passive defense boost. My needlessly complicated out in the future concepts aside, this is a simpler solution.

I'd prefer if we kept both dark mind and oblation somehow, but we are starting to teeter on the edge of being button bloated in general, and if we're to make room for future abilities, them being merged is a likely path to take.

I honestly don't see them ever doing that abyssal drain change purely out of the fact it would be doing no damage at all. It would be more likely that they just make it more like a single use equilibrium if they took that route. The only difference being it would require a target.

I would accept plunge's rendition from pvp into pve any day. I wish I could say I could see them doing that with plunge, but they would probably just make unmend apply sole survivor itself instead

Living Shadow itself does need more, while I don't think what I just listed above entirely solves that issue, something with salted earth like you said might work. Like giving an action that replaces LS when used to use inside of salted earth. the cooldown for salted would need to be adjusted if they keep the 2-minute burst though, as LS is currently on a 2m cd.

The devs bringing back Bulwark for PLD makes me hope we see Sole Survivor or something come back some day.

gain sheild as hp when TBN pops additonal to dark arts gain

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Originally Posted by Guts-BSM

gain sheild as hp when TBN pops additonal to dark arts gain

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Why?

It'd double its maximum sustain provided, which would consume budget¹ I think many, if not most, would rather see spread out and leveraged in as iconic a fashion as we can.

¹ the space between DRK and the next-lowest sustain tank or the average across them, when adjusting for whatever the devs (have) decide(d) DRK's lead in aDPS is worth relative to (likely redundant/excess) self-healing

Moreover, the point of TBN is to not take that damage in the first place; healing for the original shield value atop the shield's mitigation itself detracts from that vibe and then requires us to take a TBN's worth of damage before even casting TBN, too, in order to get its full value.

I mean, it'd be a buff, but... I'd rather see almost any other way suggested thus far to add sustain.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Why?

It'd double its maximum sustain provided, which would consume budget¹ I think many, if not most, would rather see spread out and leveraged in as iconic a fashion as we can.

¹ the space between DRK and the next-lowest sustain tank or the average across them, when adjusting for whatever the devs (have) decide(d) DRK's lead in aDPS is worth relative to (likely redundant/excess) self-healing

Moreover, the point of TBN is to not take that damage in the first place; healing for the original shield value atop the shield's mitigation itself detracts from that vibe and then requires us to take a TBN's worth of damage before even casting TBN, too, in order to get its full value.

I mean, it'd be a buff, but... I'd rather see almost any other way suggested thus far to add sustain.

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what i meant is we gain the amount of TBN's shield as hp or even mb would be great when the shield is destroyed

Yes. I know. The critique follows that understanding.

I can agree with 'if TBN has remaining shield when it runs out of duration, add that remaining shield as HP to the DRK' to make an unpopped TBN slightly less sad to see. But if the suggestion is 'heal DRK for (TBN strength) at the time of using TBN', then that's a 25% selfheal, AND a 25% barrier, on a 15s CD, which would be ridiculous levels of selfsustain

I think PVP has the right idea. Salted Earth should heal overtime instead.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

I think PVP has the right idea. Salted Earth should heal overtime instead.

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That would still make a 90 second CD ability your only source of healing which you'd always get as soon as its off CD due to the DPS aspect. Instead Edge or Flood should heal, or even Bloodspiller as you use them more frequently and can choose a bit when to delay or not to delay. As for TBN breaking, perhaps Dark Arts can be a defensive aspect too, such as allowing you to heal urself via those mentioned abilities?

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

That would still make a 90 second CD ability your only source of healing which you'd always get as soon as its off CD due to the DPS aspect. Instead Edge or Flood should heal, or even Bloodspiller as you use them more frequently and can choose a bit when to delay or not to delay. As for TBN breaking, perhaps Dark Arts can be a defensive aspect too, such as allowing you to heal urself via those mentioned abilities?

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This. If we're trying to maximize agency/reward for skillful use, it'd make the most sense that our sustain should go to whatever can be banked the most.

That makes Edge and Flood the best choices for damage->healing or healing on cast, by a huge margin.

Bloodspiller, if reduced to 40 Blood cost, would at least be close, but would still mean necessarily bundling that healing into Delirium (rather than just having a minor potency loss if moving Edge/Flood out of our 20s raid buffs for later healing), which effectively means less control, which then means more of that min-maxing falls to our healers (to just not heal us before Delirium) rather than predominantly onto us, while also skipping over that otherwise great indicator we'd give our healer as to our self-sustain potential in the given moment -- our MP.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

That would still make a 90 second CD ability your only source of healing which you'd always get as soon as its off CD due to the DPS aspect. Instead Edge or Flood should heal, or even Bloodspiller as you use them more frequently and can choose a bit when to delay or not to delay. As for TBN breaking, perhaps Dark Arts can be a defensive aspect too, such as allowing you to heal urself via those mentioned abilities?

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Healing within our kit using DA is probably one of the better options out there that isn't just bringing back Sole Survivor by far.

Using this, we should be able to bank 2 DA stacks, given that it still is a damage neutral if they don't nerf the potency due to higher sustain. The fact that tbn now procs horrifically fast in dungeons especially, I find, warrants having a second DA stack.

If they wouldn't do this because of people malding from dps loss (not that it doesn't happen now if TBN doesn't pop), they could instead reduce the potency of the base skill itself, and give that lost potency in the DA proc, that way you would ideally want to proc it whenever you can for an increase in dps output, and we can maintain having a higher skill expression plus we would feel more rewarded for knowing the fights.

I'm not entirely sure how to make this work if we're putting this on Salted Earth as well. Maybe if TBN pops, it gives Salt and Darkness a bonus effect and it heals us for 100p per mob or so.

DA would no longer feel boring to use, and would only strengthen the good brain juices that flow when you hear TBN pop.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

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I mean... I guess, but DA isn't really a thing in itself. It's just a way by which TBN limits its casts per minute to less absurd levels of total mitigation.

More importantly, if you anything you add atop that just makes all the more of DRK's performance depend on how many TBNs can be popped per average minute, which is negatively impacted by increasing Vitality in a way that... well... nothing else in this game is.

That's not some crippling flaw, but... it does kind of kill any hype I'd have for it (though admittedly that's in part because I already find TBN plenty satisfying compared to any other on-demand save for perhaps Shadowbringers Nascent Flash).

If there were at least a difference in animation so that it'd better make sense that "Edge/Flood" (which really has two forms) only heals under certain conditions, I'd be cooler with this, but otherwise I'd rather keep it simple via a higher max count of banked MP value (via DA) and any Edge/Flood self-healing. Give a bit to Carve and Spit (2 charges, 40s CD, still shared with Abyssal as to have more control over ST vs. AoE) and to Salt and Darkness (not Salted Earth, as that's use-on-CD), and boom, there's significant event-based truly bursty stuff to schedule mitigation around as not to overcap on HP while also having plenty of flexibility in banking.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean... I guess, but DA isn't really a thing in itself. It's just a way by which TBN limits its casts per minute to less absurd levels of total mitigation.

More importantly, if you anything you add atop that just makes all the more of DRK's performance depend on how many TBNs can be popped per average minute, which is negatively impacted by increasing Vitality in a way that... well... nothing else in this game is.

That's not some crippling flaw, but... it does kind of kill any hype I'd have for it (though admittedly that's in part because I already find TBN plenty satisfying compared to any other on-demand save for perhaps Shadowbringers Nascent Flash).

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Fair enough. It's more of a personal preference to me, anyway. I like the idea of getting offensive options from mitigation, it just doesn't work well in practice because of chasing higher dps with it, which leads to one thing or another.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If there were at least a difference in animation so that it'd better make sense that "Edge/Flood" (which really has two forms) only heals under certain conditions, I'd be cooler with this, but otherwise I'd rather keep it simple via a higher max count of banked MP value (via DA) and any Edge/Flood self-healing. Give a bit to Carve and Spit (2 charges, 40s CD, still shared with Abyssal as to have more control over ST vs. AoE) and to Salt and Darkness (not Salted Earth, as that's use-on-CD), and boom, there's significant event-based truly bursty stuff to schedule mitigation around as not to overcap on HP while also having plenty of flexibility in banking.

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I think I would prefer a newer animation with the DA proc regardless if we took my route of dps net gain. Say without the proc it remains as edge/flood but with proc it changes to the other action/animation with DA.

I have stated my agreement with it in the past, and I still stand by Carve and Spit/AD being put on a 30/40s cooldown with two stacks. I think I personally would take another combo action after Salt and Darkness, whether or not just one or both of them were to be given some small sustain. all of this and moreso if they give them some interaction with DA procs or elsewhere (likely Blood Weapon, if I had to guess)
This is still also taking into account they actually tone down the ogcd bloat in the burst to begin with. Which as we stated before would be at least partially solved by Shadowbringer being put on one charge on a 60s cooldown with a mana cost.