I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

Now I am imgaining a very bored and fed up forum goer linking to a googledoc with a blunt 'see subsection 4c paragraph a1 for the list of refutations of this argument'

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That would be so funny actually. A giant document that refutes every single common argument that pops up from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be fair in my eyes, it's not about trying to change their mind (I mean that would be nice of a bonus if it actually happens). I'm sure we recognize their stance and they're unlikely to budge---they've made their point, I can't change that. But I can still inform/convince the otherwise to those who read the replies aftermath.

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Honestly, I respect you for that, and everyone else who does the same. The last time I earnestly tried to correct misinformation, I got called all manner of names, so I personally don't bother anymore.

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

When I do look back at the first post, it does have very little information. However, it is more open-ended and doesn't ask for the things that are usually assumed at all. Should we have Mithron's first post edited to link some important points contributed as well as other suggestions mentioned from ForsakenRoe, Ty, Sebazy and WaxSw? I also mentioned some points with combining Cure, Cure 2 and Afflatus Solace all together with maybe single oGCD heal combo buttons like Indomidability > Fey Blessing to free up spell slots without eliminating spells.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Should we have Mithron's first post edited to link some important points contributed as well as other suggestions mentioned from ForsakenRoe, Ty, Sebazy and WaxSw? I also mentioned some points with combining Cure, Cure 2 and Afflatus Solace all together with maybe single oGCD heal combo buttons like Indomidability > Fey Blessing to free up spell slots without eliminating spells.

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Isn't the 'post that contains the refutations to every tired 'attack the strawman' that has been done already', the thread that Recon made over in healer section?

Something like what you mention here, with combining skills to slow down action bloat, at least that we can have a discussion about the merits of various implementations. For example, on WHM, I would agree that Cure 1 can upgrade to Cure 2, but I would also disagree with adding Solace to the list, because the use cases for Solace and Cure2 are different, there may be times where you want to heal but save the mobility of the Solace for a moment. So I'd say Cure1>2, and Medica1>2, that's two buttons saved on WHM and it already has the lowest button count of the healers iirc

But it's not really possible to have a discussion when the topic is 'the solution to making healers feel more engaging is to make them heal more. Also I don't know how to go about doing that, but that's what I think, and I emphatically disagree with trying to solve the problem with more damage buttons'. I don't mind when someone says they think that 'more healing requirements' is the fix, I mind it when they say that, are completely closedminded to any alternative solution, and also don't actually present any thoughts on how to make 'more healing requirements' work, that both A: make veteran healers feel engaged in ALL content, and B: also doesn't screw casual healers and make some content unclearable for them due to lower skill level. I mind it when people say 'just do it the way I say, it's not my job to work out the logistics', because I went to university to study this kind of stuff. This IS the job I studied for, and it's why I end up typing massive essays in response to the smallest of things, because contrary to all the lemons who say 'if you don't enjoy having so few damage buttons on healer, go play a DPS' think, I want to enjoy healer again, as much as I did in previous expansions. I don't do this because I hate healer, I do it because I care about the health of the healer role. If 'just play a DPS' was the solution, I'd have swapped mains years ago

I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't mind if SE tries to make it more interesting by increasing damage button count, healing required, or both. I will mind if they just try to keep the status quo, and give us another 2 years of what we have now. SE, Yoshi-P, please. Try something new for healer design. Anything. More healing required, more damage buttons, or both, or something else entirely. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. We don't know until we try. But we do know what won't work: This. Because we're going through it now, and it's not working now. DT is going to be a new beginning in the story. Give us a new beginning in the healer design, too, thanks

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

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IDK about others from the healer section of the forums, but my general stance is 'hey, HW was too complex, SHB was too simple, SB was the midpoint where the clunky garbo of healers (Cleric Stance, damage scaling from INT) was removed to make it more accessible to newer players. Can we look at going back to something akin to SB's healer damage design, and using that as a baseline to build off of going forward?'

As an example, I ask for WHM to get a 15s CD GCD, and 12s duration on Dia. By contrast, SB WHM had Aero2 at 18s, and Aero3 at 24s. Same button count as what I am asking for, but mine would be used more often (which means even less Stone/Glares), both Dia/the 15s CD would be instant (whereas Aero3 had a cast time longer than the GCD) which would allow more mobility options for newer players (helps them keep their damage easier while doing mechanics), etc. But both of these (me vs SB) would also open the doors on design options for the devs to add new interactions. I've long suggested a gauge on WHM which builds by using any non-lily spell, including damage. Said gauge would be spent on a new healing ability, which is itself damage-neutral, by empowering your next cast of Glare/Dia/the new button, into Quake, Tornado and Flood (since BLM has access to Flare and Freeze). Casual players could look at this and go 'oh cool strong heal, and also big cool attack animations' and feel good about using them. Optimization players, however, would be able to think 'How do I line up my healing CD plan, such that I go into the burst window with two stacks of Quake, Flood, Tornado, a Misery ready, and use them all in the right order to maximize the burst inside raidbuffs?' and that added optional depth is what we need more of

Additionally, if we also had these Quake etc be AOE with 50% damage falloff (as with many other skills in this game cough Phlegma), then we have, with just two new buttons (the 15s one, and the healing gauge spender), not only made the ST rotation more interesting, but added THREE new buttons to the AOE rotation as well (since Holy would also build gauge)! Then later expansions, the devs have so much more design space to work with, because of the addition of the gauge. Other gauge spenders, Infuriate style 'gives instant Gauge' CDs, a move that dumps ALL of the gauge currently built and scales in power based on amount used (Purgation?), the list goes on

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

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The thing is, adding anything at all would make the current healer dps rotations more complex. But what some people seem to ignore is that complexity is a spectrum ranging from WAR/DNC to BLM/MNK, the problem is that people who vehemently oppose healer dps buttons always immediately jump to assume that we want the BLM/MNK end of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But it's not really possible to have a discussion when the topic is 'the solution to making healers feel more engaging is to make them heal more. Also I don't know how to go about doing that, but that's what I think, and I emphatically disagree with trying to solve the problem with more damage buttons'. I don't mind when someone says they think that 'more healing requirements' is the fix, I mind it when they say that, are completely closedminded to any alternative solution, and also don't actually present any thoughts on how to make 'more healing requirements' work, that both A: make veteran healers feel engaged in ALL content, and B: also doesn't screw casual healers and make some content unclearable for them due to lower skill level. I mind it when people say 'just do it the way I say, it's not my job to work out the logistics', because I went to university to study this kind of stuff. This IS the job I studied for, and it's why I end up typing massive essays in response to the smallest of things, because contrary to all the lemons who say 'if you don't enjoy having so few damage buttons on healer, go play a DPS' think, I want to enjoy healer again, as much as I did in previous expansions. I don't do this because I hate healer, I do it because I care about the health of the healer role. If 'just play a DPS' was the solution, I'd have swapped mains years ago

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One thing that sticks out to me is that there's been quite a few people who want an increase to healing requirements that absolutely reject dps options and claim that expanded dps options have no place in healer design. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen a single person who supports expanded dps options that absolutely reject healing requirements being increased.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

One thing that sticks out to me is that there's been quite a few people who want an increase to healing requirements that absolutely reject dps options and claim that expanded dps options have no place in healer design. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen a single person who supports expanded dps options that absolutely reject healing requirements being increased.

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I've unleashed the Seb-bomb on a few people that have claimed that more healer DPS complexity would cause problems whereas increasing healing requirements somehow wouldn't a few times, but that's mostly just down to the absurd boost incoming damage alone would need to actually a pressure a decent healer with our current kits. I was actually tempted to paste some of my older calcs to a poster here yesterday but didn't have time sadly.

If SE took the route of more erratic and consistent incoming damage coupled with a DEEP pruning of our healing kits and AoE HPS potency to actually force us to have to triage then I think SE could actually turn this ship around.

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread. Would Regen be enough to warrant the merge or is it not enough due to dealing with many burst hits for Savage and saving the instant cast? In my case scenario with healing casual content, Solace was always used first before I got to Cure 2. Cure 2 usually only ever got used at the start of the dungeon if the tank is getting hammered on the first pull even despite the Holy stun spam. Not always the tank's fault since single target DPS is sometimes a thing too on big pulls >.>

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50. This basically comes down to how level 50 dungeons would feel like. Sometimes, a new player takes more damage than usual in the Main Scenario dungeon (cough Citadel Buster cough). I generally just toss a Regen to those DPS players if they are the only ones hit, but I wonder if that is enough for the new players? We also have Cure 3, but it is not very useful for casual content with stacking rarely ever happening. Could we add a 30 yard radius range to the AoE heals projected onto your target to fix that? Or would this ... negatively affect the veterans who do use it for Savage in coordinated stacks?

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread. Would Regen be enough to warrant the merge or is it not enough due to dealing with many burst hits for Savage and saving the instant cast? In my case scenario with healing casual content, Solace was always used first before I got to Cure 2. Cure 2 usually only ever got used at the start of the dungeon if the tank is getting hammered on the first pull even despite the Holy stun spam. Not always the tank's fault since single target DPS is sometimes a thing too on big pulls >.>

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50. This basically comes down to how level 50 dungeons would feel like. Sometimes, a new player takes more damage than usual in the Main Scenario dungeon (cough Citadel Buster cough). I generally just toss a Regen to those DPS players if they are the only ones hit, but I wonder if that is enough for the new players? We also have Cure 3, but it is not very useful for casual content with stacking rarely ever happening. Could we add a 30 yard radius range to the AoE heals projected onto your target to fix that? Or would this ... negatively affect the veterans who do use it for Savage in coordinated stacks?

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

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There's very few instances in savage or ultimates where you absolutely have to save an instant cast heal, you can almost always solve most mechanics with precasting heals instead. One example from this expansion is Act 2 in P4SP2. you can't precast heals because the party is split too far, so you have to do an instant cast (whether with OGCDs, lilies or Swiftcast) as you're running to the next spot because there's no time to do a 2s hardcast before the next instance of damage.

But every healer already does have an on-demand tool for when you absolutely need an instant heal during a mechanic: Swiftcast.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I've unleashed the Seb-bomb on a few people that have claimed that more healer DPS complexity would cause problems whereas increasing healing requirements somehow wouldn't a few times, but that's mostly just down to the absurd boost incoming damage alone would need to actually a pressure a decent healer with our current kits. I was actually tempted to paste some of my older calcs to a poster here yesterday but didn't have time sadly.

If SE took the route of more erratic and consistent incoming damage coupled with a DEEP pruning of our healing kits and AoE HPS potency to actually force us to have to triage then I think SE could actually turn this ship around.

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Some people do throw around terms like "Make us heal 80% of the time" while not realising how unfeasible it really is. We do spend 80% of the time healing during mechanics like J-Wave or Harrowing Hell, do people really want that form of intense healing all the time in all forms of content? I'm not sure that's really a good idea.

I’ll use a bit of maths here using SGE as the example

Some things to note
1) I’ll be considering kardia at a 2.5 second GCD
2) if an action has a longer than 1 minute CD I’ll consider it on a fractional percentage of 1 minute (so if I’m considering holos on a 2 minute CD I’ll divide its potency by 2 to get its one minute potency)
3) I’m baking Zoe into pnuema and krasis into haima for ease sake
4) if an oGCD gives a shield I’m gonna assume said shield gets completely absorbed
5) panhaima I’m taking an average of 2 shields being cracked and 3 expiring as a heal
6) addersgall generates at 1 per 20 seconds so 2 out of 3 addersgall will be given to kerechole, the other to ixochole
7) all percentage mitigations I’m gonna assume mitigate about 200 potency worth of damage

With that out of the way

SINGLE TARGET

Kardia (24 GCD’s per minute)- 3627 potency
Soteria (2.667 GCD’s per minute)- 771 potency
Combined kardia potency- 4397 potency
Haima (0.5 uses per minute)- 360 potency (shield), 270 potency (expiration heal)

Total single target potency- 5027 potency

AOE

Physis 2 (once per minute)- 650 potency
Kerechole (twice per minute)- 1000 potency (regen), 400 potency (mitigation)
Ixochole (1.66666 times per minute)- 666 potency
Holos (0.5 times per minute)- 150 potency (heal), 150 potency (shield), 100 potency (mitigation)
Panhaima (0.5 times per minute)- 200 potency (shields), 150 potency (expiration heal)
Pnuema (0.5 times per minute)- 450 potency

Total AOE potency- 3916 potency

A DPS/healer has roughly 2500-300 potency of health and a tank about 4500-5000, so unless you are willing to do almost 1.5x a DPS health bar every single minute then SGE can handle the healing alone with no loss to GCD damage and SGE is a SHIELD healer, the values are off the charts

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Originally Posted by Aravell

There's very few instances in savage or ultimates where you absolutely have to save an instant cast heal, you can almost always solve most mechanics with precasting heals instead. One example from this expansion is Act 2 in P4SP2. you can't precast heals because the party is split too far, so you have to do an instant cast (whether with OGCDs, lilies or Swiftcast) as you're running to the next spot because there's no time to do a 2s hardcast before the next instance of damage.

But every healer already does have an on-demand tool for when you absolutely need an instant heal during a mechanic: Swiftcast.



Some people do throw around terms like "Make us heal 80% of the time" while not realising how unfeasible it really is. We do spend 80% of the time healing during mechanics like J-Wave or Harrowing Hell, do people really want that form of intense healing all the time in all forms of content? I'm not sure that's really a good idea.

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I also vaguely remembering a few instances like P7S purgation phase where my co-WHM saves Raptures in those times for movement between platforms and uses Medica II/Cure III to help out the heals while everybody are standing still in their assigned positions.