SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

The job is still fresh and there is tons of room for improvement. Focusing everything on preserving summoner's "image" is a waste of time and resources. The balance between the summons we have now should be looked into.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardan

The job is still fresh and there is tons of room for improvement. Focusing everything on preserving summoner's "image" is a waste of time and resources. The balance between the summons we have now should be looked into.

---

I agree but given how SE ignored almost all requests about the Summoner class in ffxi puts some dark clouds on the horizon. So I think it's better to at least make our concerns known as early as possible. But from what I have heard people where already complaining during beta which I didn't participate in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miiu

Now we only have garuda out because of contagion.

---

Not only because of contagion. We also keep garuda out because she doesnt have to run after the mob every time it decides to relocate. She can just continue dps'ing unlike ifrit and titan who have to follow the mob everywhere it runs losing dps, add to that she also lives longer so you dont have to resummon every 5-10 minutes cause they die to a big attack or something, thus resummoning and losing both player and smn dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miiu

snip.

---

Summoner in FFXI was purposely held back, like every other pet job, due to the crippling fear that they would actually be good. Tanaka was mostly to blame because, y'know, BALANCE.

As far as our current summons go, the only thing that needs to be changed is Ifrit and Titan. Garuda has a one-up on them because of contagion and benefits from our primary stat: INT. Honestly they just need to make it so Ifrit and Titan get the STR boost they need from our INT since all of their attacks, except enkindle, are physical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardan

Summoner in FFXI was purposely held back, like every other pet job, due to the crippling fear that they would actually be good. Tanaka was mostly to blame because, y'know, BALANCE.

---

yeah thats why in FFXI bst pets "nerfed" exp in partys.

thats why Avatars drained MP like crazy (never understood why , was a retarded idea)

and thats why Automatons were "random" , and casted in a particular order based on Puppetmaster Man. ICE ICE ICE...........pet start casting silence.....COME ON? cast blizz IV!

Took how many gears until SE added some SMN gear that was worthile? oh elemental staffs and the crappy lvl 50 set (that looke like crap ) , until u got AF1 (that wasnt that good but all AF1 sucked but some pieces) , AF2 was "ok" .....and then the MNK robe......that u needed to kill a flee + invis mob in one of the worse zones for agro ~~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warlyx

.....and then the MNK robe......that u needed to kill a flee + invis mob in one of the worse zones for agro ~~

---

Name: Yingyang Robe
Zone: Ro'Maeve
NM: Shikigami Weapon
NM information: Shikigami Weapon spawns 21 to 24 hours and 15 minutes after it last died. It has an innate invisible effect and it cannot be targeted until it is aggro'd via spellcasting. This is a RDM type weapon, that can't be silenced.

I miss those days :( Matsui ruined FFXI for good /cry

As a fresh SMN, I want to add my voice to the throng.

I would much rather each of my dots be a command issued to my pet (with maybe some iconic exceptions we've seen in prior games, like Bio) rather than a dot I apply; or even summon-themed. Something as simple as changing a name; Primal Fire (or Ifrit's Something) would make more sense than Miasma.

ACN (and SMN) spells scream death, decay and disease. This isn't a summoner's theme - it's a warlock theme. In addition to playing like one, even thematically I AM a warlock, I just summon Egis of Primals instead of demons (and, given their respective universes, aren't they the same thing really?)

I'm unsure if they did it because they want us to be non-elemental minus egis, but cmon.

Cmoooon.

I really like the game and it's not enough to make me quit it, but god damn I wish I was in command of the Primals - or at least their essences - more than I was a dealer of disease.

Where are my great pets and epic pet moves from my commands? All it is is dots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardan

Summoner in FFXI was purposely held back, like every other pet job, due to the crippling fear that they would actually be good. Tanaka was mostly to blame because, y'know, BALANCE.

As far as our current summons go, the only thing that needs to be changed is Ifrit and Titan. Garuda has a one-up on them because of contagion and benefits from our primary stat: INT. Honestly they just need to make it so Ifrit and Titan get the STR boost they need from our INT since all of their attacks, except enkindle, are physical.

---

Ifrit and Titan DO scale off of INT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevee

Ifrit and Titan DO scale off of INT.

---

Just miserably so, as I'm sure your thread outlined.

The fact that a ranged pet with the only good pet ability for raids does more damage than the melee pet you have to micro more to keep alive and has crap abilities is absurd.

It's lame that Garuda is the only viable pet. Titan is only really usable in parties without a tank (and it's absolutely terrible compared to a real tank, and makes a dungeon run take much longer) and Ifrit doesn't have Contagion/has nothing useful.

Why are pets for a summoner such a small side thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaosPrimeZero

We also keep garuda out because she doesnt have to run after the mob every time it decides to relocate. She can just continue dps'ing unlike ifrit and titan who have to follow the mob everywhere it runs losing dps

---

This is a matter of thematics. Would you rather Ifrit-egi and Titan-egi stand with the SMN spamming long range spells, despite the primals those are based on being melee?

The main issue is really that if you're going to do the parallel of imp/succubus/voidwalker for Garuda/Ifrit/Titan-egi, then Ifrit's damage needs to be bumped up and he needs to be given a channeled CC. The succubus could DPS via Lash of Pain spam and could use Seduction to incapacitate a target so long as the succubus was channeling the ability.

That's not even getting into the wonky pet mechanics this game suffers from (bad AI, bad pathing, terrible UI and command options, as well as the inability to truly control what your pet uses on cooldown individually).

Quote:

---

add to that she also lives longer so you dont have to resummon every 5-10 minutes cause they die to a big attack or something, thus resummoning and losing both player and smn dps.

---

This is more because SE chose to not copy one of the more crucial aspects of pet gameplay from WoW - the greatly reduced damage taken from indirect damage sources. If I recall, indirect damage (AoE, line attacks, ground targetted attacks, incidental raid damage) taken by pets is something like 10% of what player characters take.

The funny thing is that this was done because prior to implementation pet classes whose DPS was reliant on the pet would get shafted in raids because dead pet made that DPS a liability (Demo warlocks and all three hunter specs know this quite well). That is also most likely the other reason why egi's relation to SMN's DPS works the way it does, specially when taking into account that egis do not have that native damage reduction and can die easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borfin

ACN (and SMN) spells scream death, decay and disease. This isn't a summoner's theme - it's a warlock theme. In addition to playing like one, even thematically I AM a warlock, I just summon Egis of Primals instead of demons (and, given their respective universes, aren't they the same thing really?)

---

Doesn't the bold pretty much justify the approach SE took with FFXIV's SMN?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

It's lame that Garuda is the only viable pet. Titan is only really usable in parties without a tank (and it's absolutely terrible compared to a real tank, and makes a dungeon run take much longer) and Ifrit doesn't have Contagion/has nothing useful.

---

Titan is actually pretty useful if you micro manage him.


I tanked a Hydra with him, and he held aggro off of some relic+1 folk.

He has ~7.2k HP, for me, but the kicker is that he took reduced damage from breath so all you had to worry about was Triumverate, and moving him out of puddles.


No, he's not really useful for dungeons. He doesn't have AoE aggro for squat, but it can tank bosses OK.

I don't think it would be super thematically bad if ifrit was ranged.

I mean theres no reason for him to be melee except that the game wanted a "melee dps pet".

Summon depictions have always varied between games, but in almost all instances he has some version of hellfire as his main attack, whether its like a beam of fire, a giant fireball, or a ring/ball of fire around him.

I wouldnt mind ifrit being melee but it doesnt make sense as it is.
Radiant shield is useless, its not a tank, so it shouldnt be getting hit much. If at all. It should a port or a charge (prefer port, possible one that ports it behind a the target, but if its a charge, obviously damage on impact, maybe a dot as well).

I personally do not understand why has a stun instead of summoner. Thats something i would like more control of.
Burning strike should be the default skill and Flaming crush the second skill.
Charge/Port skill #3
and some kind of self buff on a short CD for it as skill #4. Iunno, allows its melee hits to deal extra X amount of damage. Another Y if dealt from the rear/plank of the mob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kushino

You sound like a really nice group of people.

---

They sound like a group of morons^^

"It's lame that Garuda is the only viable pet. Titan is only really usable in parties without a tank (and it's absolutely terrible compared to a real tank, and makes a dungeon run take much longer) and Ifrit doesn't have Contagion/has nothing useful.

Why are pets for a summoner such a small side thing... "

----------------------------------------------------------------
all pets are viable,but only for there dedicated purpose.
titan is clearly a solo pet.
garuda is for boss fights
and ifrit is for all things leading up too the boss.
As for why the pets are so 1 key is because that's the way the game itself is setup.every pet,every job has its place/spot and that's what it is.
ifrit brings more damage too the table then garuda but the way the games boss fight mechanics are setup make him a poor choice not the pet itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Doesn't the bold pretty much justify the approach SE took with FFXIV's SMN?

---

It would if every Final Fantasy from 3 to 13 hadn't set a precedent for the Summoner class (and summon-users in general) thematically being based around... yknow, summons... instead of death and decay

BLM still casts Fire, Fire II, Fire III, etc. It's still thematically the destructive spells that, for the most part, are recurring in the series.

The same could be said of WHM, PLD (remember Cover?); admittedly I haven't looked through all classes, but those are examples that support it.

It's a large thematic change, which I take issue with. I still have a ton of fun with the class, I just wish it wasn't a WoW warlock carbon copy.

on some boss, like the demonic wall ifrit is far stronger, other point the enkindle of ifrit is more interesting than the one of garuda, the DoT is pretty heavy.

Just make all pets do the same damage, but give them different utility. Garuda would be a debuffer, Ifrit would be offensive group buffs, and titan would be defensive group buffs.

And quite frankly the summoner should have gotten more command skills to use. I'm not keen on the fact that we use Thunder, a BLM spell, far more than we use some of our SUMMONER spells like Tri-Disaster or Ruin II, and Enkindle needs to go down to a 15 sec cd.

Eye For an Eye is a terrible spell as well that should be re-tooled. I mean, come on, an RNG long cd defensive cooldown with a weak proc effect on a low chance? What a waste of an ability.

What's the point of having Bio I and Bio II if they do the same thing? I hate redundancy. Condense the spells into one and give Bio or Bio II a different use/interaction.

Miasma II is another candidate for serious retooling.

But all of this thread is probably not getting read anyways as I've yet to see a dev post here. These posts might be better spent in the General Discussion forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

What's the point of having Bio I and Bio II if they do the same thing? I hate redundancy. Condense the spells into one and give Bio or Bio II a different use/interaction.

---

Bio is an instant-cast, moderate output short duration DoT. Unlike our other rotationary abilities it can be cast and refreshed on the move.
Bio II is a cast-timed high output long duration DoT. It's far more akin to Thunder than Bio.

I have issues with the themes, but don't claim that Bio II and Bio are similar when the only traits they share are non-elemental damage and the fact that they do it over time. It's like claiming that Fire and Fire II basically do the same thing. :P

Actually Bio II has a lower potency then Bio. But it does have a longer cast time. Unless the tool tip is wrong. Bio is 40 while Bio II is 35. That said everything else is accurate.

By high output I mean large damage per cast, not necessarily DPS. I was unclear.

SOLUTION! Change the color palletes of the summons, Example change Titan to a fleshy rot color and call him a flesh golem and change the color of his auto attack red and call it blood spike, then just call Summoner, Necromancer and SE is golden. Then you can just try again with a Real summoner job!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borfin

Bio is an instant-cast, moderate output short duration DoT. Unlike our other rotationary abilities it can be cast and refreshed on the move.
Bio II is a cast-timed high output long duration DoT. It's far more akin to Thunder than Bio.

I have issues with the themes, but don't claim that Bio II and Bio are similar when the only traits they share are non-elemental damage and the fact that they do it over time. It's like claiming that Fire and Fire II basically do the same thing. :P

---

Fire and forget abilities. I don't find this restriction of 2.5 seconds convincing at all. If you can't cast it, use swiftcast.

The end result is I use up 7.5 seconds to fire off some damage, and in the meantime I spam ruin. It's utterly devoid in identity.


When you play a Monk, there is identity to the abilities. Deciding between Twin Snakes and True Strike. The abilities are not interchangeable. Flanking bonuses and when to best take advantage of those versus becoming a liability to the healers for being greedy. It's a lot more involved play.

Quote:

---

titan is clearly a solo pet.

---

There's no reason to use Titan solo. He simply is not needed, and I NEVER used him nor Topaz carbuncle while leveling. Personally, my pet couldn't hold aggro off of mobs for me unless I waited, and if I wait, I'm just wasting time. Even if he does manage to hold aggro, the mob still takes longer to kill because the tank pet's damage is poor.

The only time it's useful while soloing is if you manage to get a TON of mobs on you while leveling, and even then, the better solution is to kite and let the DoTs go to work. You even have a heavy in your disease to make this EASY, and a way to apply it to all mobs at once.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borfin

It would if every Final Fantasy from 3 to 13 hadn't set a precedent for the Summoner class (and summon-users in general) thematically being based around... yknow, summons... instead of death and decay

---

What precedent?

Because, you know, they haven't.

I mean, the original summoner(Rydia) learned Black Magic, Poison, Bio, Drain, Osomose, etc.

Garnet/Eiko weren't thematically based around their summons.

Yuna was, thematically, based around her summons -- But they were useless besides meat shields to soak up a hit every now and then. That isn't really displaying a "summons" or "summoners" power.

So, again, how is there a precedent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

on some boss, like the demonic wall ifrit is far stronger, other point the enkindle of ifrit is more interesting than the one of garuda, the DoT is pretty heavy.

---

No.

Never use Ifrit after 40.

Ever.

For any reason, except solo farming lower-level mobs(so it's easier to group them as Garuda would pull one out of the pack).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

And quite frankly the summoner should have gotten more command skills to use. I'm not keen on the fact that we use Thunder, a BLM spell, far more than we use some of our SUMMONER spells like Tri-Disaster or Ruin II, and Enkindle needs to go down to a 15 sec cd.

Eye For an Eye is a terrible spell as well that should be re-tooled. I mean, come on, an RNG long cd defensive cooldown with a weak proc effect on a low chance? What a waste of an ability.

What's the point of having Bio I and Bio II if they do the same thing? I hate redundancy. Condense the spells into one and give Bio or Bio II a different use/interaction.

Miasma II is another candidate for serious retooling.

---

What a terrible post.

Tri-Disaster has 2 niche uses. One, for the AoE root(hello there Garuda, if you still kill feathers), and for AoE damage on 4+ targets.

We use Ruin II plenty.

We're already top DPS..And you want Enkindle on a 15s CD? A skill we'd be able to get twice during Rouse/Spur? A skill that crits for upwards of 1.4k with said buffs? Wat?

Eye for an Eye is an amazing skill. -10% damage done is not small, or insignificant. You don't pop as an emergency, you pop it when you know what's coming. Titan example -- Pop it 2-3 rotations before a Tumult is coming. It will make sure the debuff is up.

Miasma II is another amazing skill. Useful AoE, useful ST, and has an amazing debuff that is useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

There's no reason to use Titan solo. He simply is not needed, and I NEVER used him nor Topaz carbuncle while leveling. Personally, my pet couldn't hold aggro off of mobs for me unless I waited, and if I wait, I'm just wasting time. Even if he does manage to hold aggro, the mob still takes longer to kill because the tank pet's damage is poor.

---

Titan/Topaz is useful when multi-pulling mobs on, or above, your level.

Yes, he could hold aggro. Don't state a blatant lie. If my Titan can hold off of Relic+1 DPS, it can hold off of you while leveling(as it did for me).

The goal of using Titan, when solo, is to always fight more than 1 mob. Preferably 2-3-4.

Also, he can be used as a tank for dungeon bosses.

As I said in a post last page, I tanked Hydra no problem with Titan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

It's a lot more involved play.

---

If you've ever played a MNK, not really.

And SMN is involved in watching timers and planning animations.

i love SMN as a TANK on AK

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...10238087_n.jpg

Quote:

---

i love SMN as a TANK on AK

---

Remember I said there are people like you? Yeah, there are people like you. People that think taking an extremely long time in dungeons is a good thing. Having an actual tank is ALWAYS better in AK.

Quote:

---

Titan/Topaz is useful when multi-pulling mobs on, or above, your level.

Yes, he could hold aggro. Don't state a blatant lie. If my Titan can hold off of Relic+1 DPS, it can hold off of you while leveling(as it did for me).

The goal of using Titan, when solo, is to always fight more than 1 mob. Preferably 2-3-4.

Also, he can be used as a tank for dungeon bosses.

As I said in a post last page, I tanked Hydra no problem with Titan.

---

He couldn't for me when I was leveling. That's not a lie.

And yeah, I can fight 2-3-4 mobs soloing without Titan easily. You just run around in a circle with everything dotted. Nothing can catch you and they slowly decay to dots/pet nuking them. You take minimal to no damage, and even if you do get hit, the game is so generous that the mobs barely hurt.

Super great that you tanked Hydra with Titan, but it would've been better if you used a real tank.

Are you saying that having an extra dps is worse than having a tank?

I'm really confused here.

I'm pretty sure its AWESOME that you can have 3 dps.

EDIT: also look at the threat bars.

There are tanks I've run with where I'm typically 90% or higher on threat.

So titan egi is awesome!

If you're asking for more utility than that, you are incredibly deluded.

Also, since we are a carbon copy of WoW locks, our pets are INFINITELY more useful than lock pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

Remember I said there are people like you? Yeah, there are people like you. People that think taking an extremely long time in dungeons is a good thing. Having an actual tank is ALWAYS better in AK.

---

No it isn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

He couldn't for me when I was leveling. That's not a lie.

---

Yes, it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

And yeah, I can fight 2-3-4 mobs soloing without Titan easily. You just run around in a circle with everything dotted. Nothing can catch you and they slowly decay to dots/pet nuking them. You take minimal to no damage, and even if you do get hit, the game is so generous that the mobs barely hurt.

---

So you're running around killing them slower? Okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

Super great that you tanked Hydra with Titan, but it would've been better if you used a real tank.

---

Uh, no? Bringing an extra DPS was great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

Remember I said there are people like you? Yeah, there are people like you. People that think taking an extremely long time in dungeons is a good thing. Having an actual tank is ALWAYS better in AK.


Super great that you tanked Hydra with Titan, but it would've been better if you used a real tank.

---

Lol, I love running dungeons with 3 dps+titan tanking. Some of the fastest/cleanest clears I've ever had. Not anyone elses fault that either you are terrible at managing your pets or that you are just too afraid to be responsible for more than just casting dots on something and derping, the strategy works and it makes summoners all the more awesome.

wow ok. how and the hell do you tank with Titan? not that he couldnt take the hits and as long as he gets heals but how do you keep the hate from overzealous dds? that looks fun as hell, could you share what kinda rotations you use to tank with him?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

wow ok. how and the hell do you tank with Titan? not that he couldnt take the hits and as long as he gets heals but how do you keep the hate from overzealous dds? that looks fun as hell, could you share what kinda rotations you use to tank with him?

---

Sic(unless you need Earthen Shield/Stun for something specific).

Use PLACE to move him if you need to.

My first hydra I wiped us because I was moving titan out of the flaming circle AoE(these will KILL YOUR PETS), but I Heel'd to do it, so hydra came over and Triumverate'd and I died, so Titan went away(we only had 1 healer, I wasn't topped off, or else I would've lived).



He keeps single target aggro fine. It's AoE aggro that's the problem. For trash in AK I just use Garuda, but if we're running 3 DPS/1 Heals I use Titan to tank bosses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk

Yeah, Greased Lightning and Twin Snakes are not timers. Neither are Demolish and Touch of Death or Dragon Kick. And animations don't, like, apply to all other classes.

You bore me. Bye.

---

Greased lightning isn't some separate effect. It's part of your normal attack chain, and is even tied to one of your DoTs.

Twin Snakes isn't a timer you need to worry about when you have access to the back of the boss. Neither is DK.

Funny, you mention Demolish and ToD but not Fracture.

Let me know when you've actually played a MNK, or watched someone play a MNK.

MNK is infuriatingly easy once you know what each attack does by muscle memory.

What happened to you blocking me? It would be better so the forum wouldn't have to read your horrible responses to my posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevee

What a terrible post.

Tri-Disaster has 2 niche uses. One, for the AoE root(hello there Garuda, if you still kill feathers), and for AoE damage on 4+ targets.

We use Ruin II plenty.

We're already top DPS..And you want Enkindle on a 15s CD? A skill we'd be able to get twice during Rouse/Spur? A skill that crits for upwards of 1.4k with said buffs? Wat?

Eye for an Eye is an amazing skill. -10% damage done is not small, or insignificant. You don't pop as an emergency, you pop it when you know what's coming. Titan example -- Pop it 2-3 rotations before a Tumult is coming. It will make sure the debuff is up.

Miasma II is another amazing skill. Useful AoE, useful ST, and has an amazing debuff that is useful.

---

Yeah, Miasma II is useful ST, with Contagion. I think I'll start ignoring the forum contrarians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kevee

If you've ever played a MNK, not really.

And SMN is involved in watching timers and planning animations.

---

Yeah, Greased Lightning and Twin Snakes are not timers. Neither are Demolish and Touch of Death or Dragon Kick. And animations don't, like, apply to all other classes.

You bore me. Bye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crevox

There's no reason to use Titan solo. He simply is not needed, and I NEVER used him nor Topaz carbuncle while leveling.
The only time it's useful while soloing is if you manage to get a TON of mobs on you while leveling, and even then, the better solution is to kite and let the DoTs go to work.

---

Titan was hands down the most usefull pet on my way too 50,cant even imagine doing the last part of my job quest without him.
that said he doesn't have a whole lota use when you start doing ak runs and just end up out gearing any solo content and most stuff does not do too much damage pre-titan egi too need topaz except for a few instances.
but after 35 I don't know if your just being unintentionally delusional about titan too prove a point,but unless you grinded fates too the point were you out lvled or outgeared the solo content you were supposed to be at titan was hands down my number 1 summon.