And yet, for all your insistence that a difference in output doesn't matter and isn't needed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
...you're adamant that one needs to exist.
Which tells me that you aren't interested in "optional challenge", you're interested in that difference in output. Were you not, its existence wouldn't be relevant.
(As to the "just a couple pages ago"; Those are Askellington's numbers, not mine. Take it up with him.)
I agree it's possible - I also agree that it's not necessary on every Job.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyyninen_kirahvi
Here's an example, DNC vs MCH. The two play nothing alike, despite sharing a role. MCH has a high burst APM, but has no procs. Its rotation could literally be the same from encounter to encounter. DNC, on the other hand, is the reverse. The RNG could make it where a given player could do an encounter dozens or even hundreds of times and not get QUITE the same due to the proc system. Should MCH be given procs? Should DNC have its procs removed? Or is it acceptable that some Jobs have distinctions?
I'm also - god I feel like a broken record and wish people would actually read before replying... - not "so against possibly raising it. By my own proposal, it would be raised in 3 out of 4 cases. The ratio 3:4 is 75% or, obviously, three-fourths. There is no world in which 3/4 = 0. So I'm not opposed to raising it at all - I encourage it. I'm opposed to ONLY raising it and doing so in ALL cases, however. Because that's the same situation we have now, just pissing off a different batch of people who now don't have something they enjoy.
I do on occasion, just not often. Do a lot of other stuff, too, though. Eureka/Boaja, Extremes, etc. The problem with changing Job mechanics and balance is it changes it in the entire game. The only exception is if the change is limited to mechanics that themselves are limited to certain content; Lost Actions or Criterion Actions, for example. Otherwise the changes hit the whole game and everyone playing the Job.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull
This is even worse when there's no avoiding them. For example, what if I like Glare's VFX? And all these "proposals" are to remove Glare and make WHM into an Earth/Air/Water mage? Now what?
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08-22-2023, 01:02 PMRenathras
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08-22-2023, 01:13 PMShurrikhanAnd the reason you're stuck on loop is simple:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You're saying that there exists a group of people whose experience would be ruined if they were allowed to do more with their kit, no matter whether its use were actually required in any way to do all that they did before. Which... still makes no more sense than if you were to say that there's a group of players who only do Extremes and under whose experience are ruined by Savage or Ultimate existing.
They're free not to use it. Yes, virtually all participation depends in part on relative reward, but one is free to simply choose for themselves where the reward isn't worth it for them anymore. Just as one does not need Savage BiS to go and grind maps for fun, one does not need the level of rotational effort required to clear Ultimates to have a satisfying experience with their kit.
And that would only be all the more true if kits offered complexity in between the "already saw this, in nearly its entirety, in every other job in this role" and "this is stupidly finnicky, over-rigid BS that lives or dies by my having less than 80 ping at all times".
This isn't even the same issue.Quote:
For example, what if I like Glare's VFX? And all these "proposals" are to remove Glare and make WHM into an Earth/Air/Water mage? Now what?
If you prefer pale sparkles, your solution is the same as for anyone who pushed out of the job by it being turned from an elementalist into the pale sparkles job. I'd be all for giving players skill-glamour options, but this is effectively "I stole this fair and square! They can't have it back!!" -
08-22-2023, 01:23 PMSupersnow845
Are we out here arguing that it’s wrong to want the ORIGINAL aesthetic for WHM back because some people now like the replacement aesthetic nobody liked at the ShB job trailer
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08-22-2023, 02:05 PMRenathrasI get tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and of people acting like their perspective is the only perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
In any ideal world, I shouldn't have to present the diametrically opposed perspective, because you folks should be mature and adult enough to recognize it exists. Instead, some of you act like it doesn't exist at all, and seem incapable of even contemplating it, much less seeing it, much less accepting it, much less accommodating for it.
The worst part is, when I'm countering someone on your side, and another one of you picks up the counter as if it was a stand-alone position. Like Shurrikan acting like I went from "some unknown amount to 75%" when it was Askellington that made the 75% (2x25%s, to be precise) setup and I just went with his numbers.
Likewise, you're acting like I have an ego here when I was just presenting the opposed position to Askellington's own - I'll note you didn't accuse him of having an ego, so yay for double standards, I guess.
TL;DR: You aren't helping with quips like that.
.
No, I understand that. It's why the only DPS I will play generally are SMN or RDM. I hate being in a party (especially 4 man) and one person like the healer goes down, then it's a wipe because there's no way to salvage the situation. I always play classes that can heal in games, even if I'm playing a tank or damage dealer. Like here, my DPS of choice are SMN >> RDM >>>> others in roughly that order. I haven't done DNC much, but it would probably be in there a little below RDM. Likewise, PLD is my go-to tank for obvious reasons. Granted, WAR now outheals everything in the game, but I still like that PLD was more made for it, and still remember in ARR/HW where I had Cure 1 and Raise on my PLD as Cross-Class skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
So yeah, I understand your answer perfectly well. It's something I wish the game did more of, but the combat system is just really rigid about stuff. To this day, I don't get why SMN's Physic hasn't been changed to scale off INT like RDM's does and still scales off MND instead. That made sense in ARR or HW, but doesn't really at this point. Especially since ShB split the SCH and ACN skills (the only skill listed under "Class" for SMN is Resurrection; the Physic it has is actually a separate ability in the game code that is only for SCH so if you manage to get it on your ACN/SMN bar, it's grayed out, and likewise, theirs is grayed out on SCH. So there's no coding reason for it not to scale from INT now.)
I want to start by saying that I DO appreciate someone taking time to write out a long post, so I'd like to read through this all later, just not up to it at the moment. But I DID want to respond to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Something you should probably understand is you likely aren't the target audience for WHM. Just like I'm not the target audience for AST. Or BLM. Or etc.
This goes to the 4 healer thing that people don't want to acknowledge - the healers are ALREADY targeting different audiences, and always have since WHM/SCH in ARR. It's why so many here like AST and to a lesser extent (in most cases, in some cases greater) SCH. It's why the contrast between the views here and Wesk Alber's poll. Though even within Jobs, you find splits (for example, some people like White Mage and want a holy magic user, while others like CNJ and want a nature magic using Druid; hence part of the reason people constantly ask for a Geomancer because they think it would be...well...that).
So any changes I propose you probably aren't going to like. But as for the reasons:
.
WHM:
Holy - For people that want Holy as an "ultimate" White Magic (which it is in Final Fantasy lore). It's borderline insulting the White Magic counterpart to Meteor/Flare (depending on game), is a 140 potency AOE that hits like a wet noodle. Sure, it stuns, but Holy is generally the ULTIMATE White Magic spell, and FFXIV's version is kind of an insult. HOLY should be what Misery is in terms of power. Making it part of the single target rotation as doing more damage than FREAKIN GLARE would at least be a start. It would also break up the 1111 spam that people here insist all the time they don't like. While we COULD just use Misery for this and get the same end result, mechanically (just make Glare do the same thing for single target Holy does in the AOE rotation), that was the reason I specifically chose Holy there.
Assize - Exactly the reason you said; WHM being a more methodical, GCD focused healer. I'm fine without it stacking to 2, that's just to allow drift and not demand it be used on CD if you can either save it for burst or use it for healing. That's the reasoning for the 2 stack. For the GCD is two parts. One part is that WHM being a more methodical and GCD healer, and the other is to again break up the 1111 spam. Note I'm operating on the premise people here dislike pressing the same GCD button over and over (since they ignore any oGCDs that are pressed in the rotation), hence part of any solution would include having more GCDs as frequently used buttons.
Dia - Dia stacking, yes. ALL the Healers right now have an IDENTICAL 2111 rotation, with the 2 part of that being IDENTICAL. I want to break that up. SGE's is the most distinct right now since it works via Eukrasia in a pseudo-weave. Under my proposal, SCH would get additional DoTs (at least 1) that would affect its resource generation (and Miasma as a movement tool), SGE would have its DoT removed since it would be shifting to a Caster rotation instead, and AST would have its Combust remain like it is (since that's been AST's thing since SB, or maybe even HW?). So given that, if WHM's doesn't change, it's still identical to AST. And I want more than anything the Healers to NOT have identical rotations - something you guys SUPPOSEDLY want, too. People also all the time make comparisons between WHM and WAR, so I thought doing that with its DoT is a straightforward solution. This way, we have 4 healers that each have a different DoT in their rotation; WHM's stacks, SCH has several, AST has just the non-stacking one, and SGE has none.
...for all you people want to insist things need changing, it's REALLY odd to me that you all want to insist that Healers are NOT ALLOWED to have a stacking DoT. I get we disagree on a lot of things, but this is just a REALLY strange hill to die on.
Anyway, none of it makes you want to pick up WHM again...and that's fine. Ideally, AST would have the changes that you like incorporated so you can be happy playing AST and I can be happy playing WHM. That's...kind of the point. As to what it fixes; the proposal fixes the 21111 spam that everyone here says they hate. WHM's rotation would be 2(optional second 2)411131113112131113111311432... with spurts of 4/5 (Solace/Rapture) that would push back the 1/3 next in que, and 6 (Misery) once per minute (1 = Glare, 2 = Dia, 3 = Holy, 4 = Assize), which is a departure from 21111111111121111111111126 that we have right now. You may not find it THRILLINGLY different, but it's roughly similar to WAR or NIN's non-burst. And WHM's burst would probably be about double stacking Dia so you get 60 seconds of buffed DoT, placing a Misery in there, 2 Assizes, leading with an empowered Holy, getting a second Holy if possible, a third if you can cram it in. You can't tell me that's the same as leading burst with Misery, one Dia, then pressing Glare for the next 15 seconds.
.
SCH:
Excog: ...short CD? o.O Well, that's a new one on me. As to "why" upgrade: Note how I described SCH in that proposal. The goal was to increase rotational complexity but end the Job at a similar level of overall difficulty, which means reducing excess clunk/complexity. The reason for the upgrade is partly due to that end. Making the DPS more complex by making the healing simpler so that it evens out. People here all the time say healing is simple anyway (the healing kits), so this shouldn't change anything. It also reduces SCH's button bloat, which is a problem the Job has according even to Ty's poll.
Miasma: One thing I've always found bad about Bane is that it simplifies multi-DoTting - it's odd you'd argue for a braindead button to be added given your views against healer simplicity. I find buttons like Bane to be braindead. Another issue is that adding it would oppose one of the objectives - reducing button bloat - by adding an unneeded button. It's also why I tried to think of ways to add in that mechanic through other means, like Art of War. (Which would incidentally make Art of War distinct from Dyskrasia, so I'd take that as a plus anyway; in this case, the Art of SpreadingDebuffs, which does seem to go with the tactician theme). Deployment Tactics working for debfufs is a pretty hard no UNLESS the CD of it is slashed and it's given charges. Otherwise we have the "Energy Drain competing for Aetherflow" fight all over again. Note in PvP, Deployment Tactics has a CD of like 20 seconds, not 90 seconds.
[Also, that's supposed to be DoT, not HoT. XD Can tell from the next line where I'm discussing the potency of the DoT. Editing to fix that... The point was to make a Ruin 2 that you actually WANT to use as part of your rotation, but that can also still be a movement tool.]
Broil IV - Again, Bane/Deploy is NOT fine. I do think AoW would be the ideal here, though. It was a while ago I came up with this, and Art does seem to be the better vehicle for this. I think I discussed it in a reply somewhere in the thread...
Aetherpact - Because a lot of people find it useless BECAUSE of how the channel is interrupted. Maybe this is you being an AST main and not playing SCH, but it's something SCH's complain about. A lot. Even in this forum some of the regulars who play SCH frequently share the complaint. The Lustrate change was specifically to address what Sabezy said would be a potential issue of not having Lustrate and to maintain the optimization between Energy Drain that some people enjoy but a lot don't (Ty's survey, one of the most common requests for SCH was to decouple Energy Drain from Aetherflow).
Physic - Another proposal I've had is remove Esuna as a Role action and have all the level 1 cure spells upgrade into that Job's equivalent. Basically have the button upgrade to add the cleanse. E.g. "Cure 1 upgrades to Esuna, which has the 1 sec cast time, 400 MP cost, and heals 500 potency". It's more a button consolidation thing. I do agree Adlo is more distinct, which is why I've proposed Physic upgrade to Leeches, Cure 1 to Esuna, and...I forget the AST one, but it used to have one of its own in HW before they made Esuna Rolewide in SB. Not only would this mean a single button's worth of consolidation, it would actually lend to the flavor of each Job since the names could go to their own class fantasy more, and they could even have some secondary effect added (which Esuna can't due to being a Role action) to each one, like WHM's having a small HoT or AST's costing slightly less MP or SCH's having a faster cast time, etc. SGE would just have a trait that grants Diagnosis the cleanse effect (the name already fits anyway). So this latter change is a combination of class flavor and the original button consolidation/bloat reduction.
Energy Drain - Again, one of the most asked for things by SCH players is for ED to be decoupled from AF. I think this is funny because a separate group complains when ED is removed, insisting it's the height of optimization and skill balancing healing and damage...but also insisting the healing's not needed, so it shouldn't matter and people shouldn't complain. In any case, this change would retain the cost-benefit trade-off, while letting people use AF skills. Because, at least to me, Sacred Soil and Excogitation are interesting abilities that I like using. The "Roughly about the same" is intended to please those people by giving them that thing they can still work to optimize if they wish, while Eos having a on-demand mini-Lustrate is to deal with cases of Excog not being useful for the task (where a target has more than 50% health but not enough to outright survive an upcoming attack, thus making Excog not work for healing them), and removing the clunk of the channeled ability (Aetherpact is no different than Collective or Passage of Arms; abilities people don't like because of what they preclude if you sit and channel - yes, you can still take actions yourself, but that doesn't really make it much better since it still has the downsides).
Eos/Selene - Was...never a choice. Seriously. In SB, Selene's AI was somehow worse than Eos (I never figured out how it was possible, but it was definitely a thing), and through the game's history, either Eos or Selene was superior. Using the other was generally bad, and there was never a point in the game where power-swapping between them was really useful other than for Selene's AOE cleanse, which was niche then and even more niche now if we still had it. The speed boost (as we talk about with Arrow all the time) would be a negative in modern FFXIV rotation and Job design, and the original version, in ARR, was apparently completely useless, people just didn't realize it at the time.
Screw you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
This is the kind of nonsense that gets fights started here and then people go "Oh Ren, you're TOO sensitive"; you people do this all the bloody time to egg me on. The reason I use "..." or similar is because I'm trying to have a discussion with you, not poison the well. Yet MANY of you like doing this snippy/snarky bullshit.
I've been treating you with respect and not mocking and belittling you, even as you continue to do it to me, but that just set me off.
In essence, it's you saying "So, you know that thing you spent time on, trying to reach me with respect and well reasoned argument? You know your perspective, your analysis, your belief? What you think is true and are trying to share with me? Yeah..so I don't give a damn and think you and your feelings are garbage. Screw you!" That's what "broken record" in a quote means, whether you think it or not. At the VERY least, it's you saying everything I wrote is garbage and beneath even responding to, and certainly not worth your time. Which then leads to you making a "response" that doesn't address it and just spews vitriol, belittling my entire position and not even PRETENDING to understand - or try to understand - much less address, be concerned with, or be interested in compromise or conciliation.
The reason you can't understand is because you don't want to, and have decided you're too good to even try. That you already know everything you need to know, and nothing else is relevant.
...and they say I have an ego. /s
...because that is how you feel, and it's betrayed in that little snarky quip that you didn't need to make but chose to make unbidden against someone not being a dick to you.
So yeah, if you feel that way...screw you, too. Come back when you want to start acting like a respectful and mature adult. I'm tired of dealing with your nonsense and trying to be the bigger person in the face of your heckling.
(Seriously, I like your perspective on various things, even if I often disagree, I love your knowledge of the history of the game, including 1.0 stuff...but damnit, why do you have to do THIS sort of bull? Why? WHY!?)
"nobody" doesn't mean what you think it means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I should also note WHM has had Holy since level 45 in ARR - actually since 1.0.
And no, this isn't the argument we had, it's just a facet of the overall insanity. -
08-22-2023, 03:44 PMASkellingtonI've already gone on record saying WHM isn't for me as in I don't like its simplicity. My point in bringing up your changes is that, even with them, they wouldn't make me want to retry WHM - which is something I want to do, simple or not. Your design changes should make me interested in playing WHM at least once to see if the rework is worth it like SMN. It doesn't. I want something to draw me into playing WHM other than "well its the simple healer" yeah it can be simple still but I want the class to be engaging. Nothing you've done to change has made it that more engaging. For the most part you've made it more boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Dia stacking is a worse decision simply because Dia is set and forget as is. You aren't making Dia more interesting with the change. You're making it LESS interesting. So it stacks. So what? Its exactly the same as AST reapplying its DoT at 30s. The idea of having Dia proc is a much better idea.
Holy is fine as is. It doesn't need the Meteor treatment for WHM fantasy. It being the ultimate WHM skill in other games and different here is fine. Just like AST being a blend of Time Mage and Fate is fine. Its something new to the game specifically it doesn't need to change. Misery is what they chose for the job. I think its out of no where, the entire lily system included since it started off as CNJ but I think its fine having Holy be the AOE.
Excog is on a short CD relative to the current encounter design. Any time I need it, its up and ready to be used. This isn't part of the Button Bloat I'd like to see fixed.
Bane/Deploy is fine. Bane was removed for 0 reason and could be brought back. Don't want Bane back? Deployment Tactics is right there as evident in PvP. Its odd that you think DT wouldn't get either charges or a reduced recast with this change. Broil IV makes it clunkier. You're applying 2 DoTs, using your single target ability to apply them, and then spamming AoW. AoW could also spread it, but it feels a bit more kit cohesive in making DT do it. (I like the PvP kit, sue me)
Changing the Cure 1s of the healers into Esuna is never going to jell with me. For several reasons. A good chunk of statuses that exist don't require a heal as they don't do damage or don't have damage attached to them. And the ones that do? Slap a HoT or leave it alone because its a DoT and it hits like a wet noodle. Further I see little reason to take a role action and give it flavors like p.Ranged's defensive buffs (...which lack flavors but you get the point). Of all the changes this is the one I'd least like to see. Or at least extremely low on the priority list.
Also Aetherpact is vastly different than Collective. You can time Collective's bubble for the mitigation part and when you no longer need it, stop the channel and the HoT is still applied. The only part that's channeled is the migitation iirc (and the HoT is still only applied in the 8-10y SE don't you DARE "fix it"). Further I like Aetherpact on a toggle. I like the idea of being able to use it to heal for a short amount of time and then stop it. The problem is... nothing else uses the Fey Gauge where I want to do that. If it were more like Collective in the way that there is a choice between channel vs not I think I'd be more attached. But I digress. Point is, I don't see why Aetherpact needs to turn into a Lustrate because you upgraded Lustrate into Excog. Just keep Lustrate then and either remove Aetherpact or make it do something else or do something with pet AI to make it better instead.
Speaking pets, just because Selene was useless in the past doesn't mean it had to be continuously useless. That's literally why AST cards are nothing but Balance. Because Balance was "always favored" and instead of either bringing up the other cards and/or nerfing Balance we'll just make them all Balance. You can change Selene to be worth something and I argue you should. Damn what SE did by deleting it.
Energy Drain being decoupled... was a problem because when SCH had nothing to spend their stacks on, they were stuck with nothing but healing. I think it can stay but moving it to the Fey Gauge is fine. I don't think its a great change but I'm not over all attached to the idea.
Also Holy having existed since FFXIV does not mean that SE should have gone and turn Stone and Aero into Glare and Dia. WHM has its roots in CNJ, it should retain them. Dia and Glare could have been added on, perhaps as procs if they really wanted to add in the Light. It makes sense thematically for Shb it doesn't really make sense going off the lore of CNJ/WHM and yeah, no one asked for Stone/Aero to be taken away and replaced with Dia and Glare. Unless you can find a post or two before Shb. People may want to keep it NOW but I highly doubt anyone asked for it before. -
08-22-2023, 04:03 PMForsakenRoe
Please go back and reread my post in full Ren, rather than getting to the cynical 'ego' quip I made as a joke (clearly marked with a /s to imply I was not being serious about it) and then skipping the rest. I wouldn't have made said quip if you weren't using language like you were 'saving one job' from damnation. If there's a range of views specifically for WHM, from 'I want massive changes' to 'I want nothing to change whatsoever', then I'd argue that it stands to reason that, rather than shifting all of the changing around such that one job gets exempted from the changes entirely, a more measured approach is used and the WHM, the 'simple, easy-to-get-into healer' remains as such, even after it's changes. Rather than giving it 'nothing', giving it comparatively less than it's counterparts yes, but still giving it a bit more than it has now, while keeping it's design simple and easy to understand, even with the additional kit. You have 'Glare three times, Holy gets stronger and can be used in ST', that's simple. I have 'press new button once per 15s', that's not just simple, that's literally what WHM had in ARR/HW (Fluid Aura), but now it's a GCD.
If you want a political example:
consider four public services: Police, Fire, Healthcare, Postal Service. Views of the citizens would vary from 'don't raise taxes at all' to 'increase funds for our public services'. Essentially, you're taking the 'don't raise taxes' viewpoints and saying 'okay, in order to satisfy everyone, we're raising the budgets for the Postal Service, Police, and Fire department. But not the Healthcare system, because some people don't want their taxes to be raised, and we need to respect that viewpoint'. Yeh it needs to be respected, but instead of going 10/10/0/10, you could do eg 10/9/4/8, because if you didn't boost the Healthcare budget, political opponents (and probably citizens) will be asking 'ok you boosted the budgets of stuff, but why not Healthcare?' and the same would likely happen here, you'd have people asking constantly 'Why did WHM get hung out to dry by SE?' and it'd likely start to bleed into PF mentality, WHM got nothing = WHM still sucks to play = WHM sucks = WHM is bad = Block WHM from PF. It's spaghetti logic, but PF operates entirely on spaghetti logic at times
I don't want to respond to every tiny thing, but I will say that you can go look at the 'ultimate Black Magic' (source: FF5), Flare, and see that it too is relegated to being an AOE tool. Additionally, Freeze is an AOE tool, and Burst/Quake/Flare/Tornado do not even exist as yet (at least, for players to use). Well, I guess Burst is in PVP. Maybe that's what BLM's getting for 7.0, anyway, Holy's position is consistent within FF14 by comparison to it's counterparts, but I doubt anyone would be opposed to seeing some kind of trait that makes Holy deal additional damage under certain conditions, to better fit it's previous incarnation's power level (Flare kind of has this with Astral Fire buffing it to be 80% stronger than it's listed potency, for example). Also, others might be trying to remove the 'twinkly lights' aesthetic in favor of the elementalist one, I'd just have both. Then the complaints can be changed from 'i miss the elements' to 'why is my aesthetic the filler and not the cool moment-of-power'
And for everyone's favorite point, Energy Drain, I do wonder how much of the opposition to it's removal/reworking is that if you don't have it, well, it feels bad to use Addersgall to overheal just for MP economy, but some say that it is nice not having to feel like they're punishing themselves for using an AF heal instead of Energy Drain. So if we had a two-pronged change, whereby ED was replaced by, idk, a singletarget shielding OGCD (which can be spread by Deployment), solving the 'there is nothing to spend AF on if no healing is needed' issue somewhat, AND adding a different source of 'complexity' to optimize in the class, then I feel like some of the opposition would die off. I don't think people are married to the idea of Energy Drain as a skill, but what it represents as part of the kit, and what a glaring hole is left when it's invariably removed. Also, Bane used to be less 'brain dead' because it cost you an AF stack in HW and earlier -
08-22-2023, 04:18 PMSupersnow845
I’m not gonna argue about you not understanding (or refusing to acknowledge) hyperbole ren
Prior to ShB launching there was absolutely no unified will to turn WHM into a disco ball, people were fine with its current (at the time) aesthetic and wanted changes to its actual systems (lily’s say hi) to make it compete with AST and SCH
Saying now it can’t be changed back when there was never community will to change it in the first place is dumb -
08-22-2023, 10:31 PMkyyninen_kirahviQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
So you are not against raising the skill ceiling, but only if there are differences in the between how actions work between jobs? I agree with that. That comes naturally when you let the jobs evolve naturally within their theme and nature.
I don't really play samurai, but what I understand it's a job that you can easily pick up but it's somewhat hard to master. Why shouldn't a healer be like that? E.g. WHM or SGE? It would take nothing from the role and it would only make the job feel better to play. You could still clear content with them but to master them you have to work for it.
The way I read and understand your 1 out of 4 proposal is that one job should work like you can do basic actions and always heal the party as necessary while the other three are given the permission to evolve and have a versatile kits that don't always work well.
As I've said somewhere before, there are no incentives to use your full healer kit unless you decide to do so. DPS and tanks(?) have to. The easiest solution to this is evolving existing actions or pruning them. Even this could make the jobs feel different and better. It could also lead to new direcions.
Just so you know. I have nothing against you, but I'm trying to understand why you're so adamant about this. -
08-22-2023, 10:44 PMWilford111I feel like the devs will look at this comment and think that people want healing to be harder. I know what you are trying to say, but if I were a dev that didn't play the game, that's how I would interpret this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
My fear is that the devs will take the role that's already the hardest and make it even more difficult, pushing even more people away. Be sure to word things correctly and specifically. -
08-22-2023, 10:50 PMChonkGoblinSuprem
Adding a DPS rotation to Healers is the worst idea I’ve ever heard. No other job needs to pay close attention to and often quickly target different members of the party to apply heals or Esuna. Whatever “endgame” content you are grinding on right now apparently has a bunch of instant kill mechanics, but as someone who still runs leveling roulette, there is already enough for healers to keep up with. As if pressing three buttons in sequence is somehow better than pressing one button…. lol nah.
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08-22-2023, 11:00 PMSupersnow845I don’t want to hit you with the “you aren’t levelled so you don’t know what you are talking about” but when you get a healer to level 90 you will realise why we are discussing thisQuote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Healing at the 40-60 range is a lot of triage, spot healing and juggling of different people, at level 90 it’s just weave one of your 17 overpowered oGCD’s anytime the boss does anything then go back to spamming your one attack button, it’s not uncommon to do dungeons at level 90 where you never “cast” a single heal at all, you just weave them
And rotations used to exist on healers anyway so it’s not like we are asking for something completely off the wall -
08-22-2023, 11:11 PMNizzilol you have no idea what you're talking aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
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08-22-2023, 11:21 PMChonkGoblinSuprem
The vast majority of people will never get a healer to 90. Endgame players are just a noisy minority.
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08-22-2023, 11:28 PMNizzi
Oh you're a troll, easy to ignore you now. Thanks for the heads up!
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08-22-2023, 11:31 PMChonkGoblinSuprem
No. I’m making a serious point but it hurts your fragile ego about being a video game badass so you are using any and all means to discount it.
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08-22-2023, 11:37 PMSupersnow845As per the last survey of the 1.3 million players that have a character at level 90Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
There are
900k level 90 SCH’s
1.1 million level 90 WHM’s
900k level 90 AST’s
800k level 90 SGE’s
So like every class in the game because of the armoury system, the overwhelming majority of players at level 90 have at bare minimum 1 90 from each role, if not a full or semi full suite of 90’s -
08-22-2023, 11:54 PMChonkGoblinSupremAnd how many millions don’t even have a single class at 90? I am not talking about the census of Endgame players. Most endgame people have just about everything ground up to 90 because it is so dead easy to power level in this game. Typical, though. Endgame players all pretend that the rest of us are dying to get through that gate. Guess what dudes? We ain’t!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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08-23-2023, 12:08 AMSupersnow845Difficult to say, according to the census there is about 28 million characters that exist within the game that are not at level 90 (or what the census considers endgame), though how many of those are actually active is a different story, the census looks like it defines active characters as those that have joined a free company and are subscribed which looks to be somewhere around 1.5-2 millionQuote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
So the majority of the paying playerbase has one job at least at level 90, as for free trial players they can have a say when they actually pay, so no, it’s not a small minority of players that have a healer at 90, taking even the most generous number of subs (2 million) more than 50% have at least WHM at 90 -
08-23-2023, 12:48 AMChonkGoblinSuprem
You are assuming that everyone with a level 90 character is currently active and that currently paying customers are more important than drawing in new subscribers. Neither is true.
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08-23-2023, 01:08 AMKatishNot to burst your bubble, but level 90 isn't even end game. Being level 90 just means you've made it to the end of the expansions released (probably) nothing more, nothing less. And this might sound harsh but really isn't, if you don't know how to play your job by then, switch to a new job (I'd honestly say you should know your job basically around lvl 50-60, the additions to the job are just an extension of what's already there). True end game doesn't happen until you are actually doing the content to get your end gear which most people won't do and make up far fewer of the level 90s out there. As for healer value, healer value falls off around level 70 or so...where the tanks basically can self-sustain (Warriors even earlier), so by the end of it you might not even be casting any of your hard cast healing spells. If you are, you might be overhealing which is indeed a thing. What you're more likely doing at this level is spamming one button (your dps button). That's why people ask for rotations as healers, cause we have nothing better to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
As for the other consensus, what if we factor out the rpers that do nothing but rp? And also alt accounts...We'd be looking at a smaller group I'd wager. -
08-23-2023, 01:42 AMChonkGoblinSuprem
Okay. So there are even fewer people in your definition of endgame player. That actually bolsters my point. The vast majority of people playing this game don’t and likely won’t ever care about what goes on in the hardcore endgame raiding content.
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08-23-2023, 02:37 AMSebazyOk, lets make this clear:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
This problem is at it's absolute worst in entry level end game content (Aka expert/90 roulettes, Normal Modes and 24 man alliances). Not mid tier endgame raiding content (Aka Extremes and early Savage) or 'Hardcore' endgame raiding content (aka Later Savage turns and Ultimates).
To give you an example in a fairly typical 24 man, Aglaia. The first kill in my list of logs for Byregot, I cast 110 GCDs over a 4:40 fight, 86 of those were Glare, 9 were Dia, 6 Raptures, 3 Solaces, 3 Cure IIs for some reason, 2 miseries, 1 regen (Note this was before the lily generation rate buff I think). So far from an exceptional log by any means. If it couldn't look any worse, I had a 100% overheal rate on those Raptures, 50% on the Solaces, 96% overheal on Assize and Regen was at 60%. 0% on those Cure IIs though so I suspect they were for raises. Even with deaths my overheal rate was 70% across all of my kit despite the fact that I was spending very little time actually healing.
The key thing I think you're misunderstanding is that dungeons and other mainstream content at the level cap are nothing like leveling dungeons. This game doesn't have a difficulty curve, it has a difficulty pit. It starts out super braindead and easy, gets surprisingly difficult at times and then promptly gets braindead easy again once you hit the cap and start getting endgame gear.
I can promise you now that levelling dungeons such as Bardams, The Vault, old Cutters Cry etc are a whole world apart from the tedium that is expert roulette. These dungeons are FAR more challenging content than any expert roulette dungeon, normal mode or 24 man raid. I can link you to people clearing Lighthouse (Regarded as one of the tougher 24 man raids) that were managing somewhere in the region of 6 button presses a minute. That's about as far removed from hardcore as you can get and a few players of that calibre wouldn't have gotten out of the vault back in the day.
Consider running Tam-Tara Deepcroft normal mode back to back, regular pulls there are about as threatening as Expert Roulette dungeons... It really is that bad. -
08-23-2023, 03:40 AMShurrikhanIt's your damned quote, not some substitution of mine. You are the one who complained that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I then pointed out why you end up as a broken record, since that is yet another thing you've blamed entirely on everyone else: you refuse to deal with the principle argument (why having additional things to play around with would harm those who already, and could to equal performance continue to, use only a small portion of their kit / perform only a small degree of available optimizations).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Perhaps spend more time towards that, rather than on nit-picking others' diction and claims they didn't make, purposely misunderstanding them, and on unwarranted moral outrage? -
08-23-2023, 04:01 AMChonkGoblinSuprem
Seems like that Expert Roulette is tuned for people who just want to chill and farm gear, not for people who want a challenge….
In my experience, Alliance Raids are just Benny Hill / comedy option content that are designed to be easier for a horde of DPS to queue into. They are fun to have everyone sprinting in a big pack whacking down a few encounters…
Maybe you should focus on Extreme and Savage if you want a challenge? Isn’t there Ultimate too? Why are you focusing on a narrow subset of the content available to you
The basic Roulettes are meant for a party of random pubbies of varying skill and give a F levels. Do the harder stuff if you want. As you said, it’s available. -
08-23-2023, 04:01 AMShurrikhanSo, we may need to define, then, what a "DPS rotation" even means.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Obviously, something like SAM's Shadowbringers loop would not work if unpredictable GCD healing needs were at all increased, even if its "combos" couldn't be interrupted (because so much of its thought and appeal are wrapped up in precisely managing overclocking, which anyone taking significant avoidable damage would then scatter to the winds for too large a portion of this SAM-like-Healer's players). A Bard loop, though? Well, that's (sadly) almost the same, but with a procced_filler, an oGCD, a Misery-analog follow-up, and a tiny bit of oGCD 'stance' interaction over the top (which probably wouldn't be worth its buttons if copied verbatim).
If you mean that simply as having more than 3 explicitly offensive single-target buttons then... no, healer kits can and have supported that. it's just a matter of extracting the greatest amount of enjoyable gameplay we can per button, which can sometimes mean more interaction with the heals and sometimes also means going a bit further towards a sort of 'critical mass'.
Similarly, if you mean some 4-5 GCDs per minute that would have disproportionate value in their being used at a specific time (and may or may not take certain timely actions prior), that is again doable; we'd just need to ensure that healers have enough slack for a majority of players interested in playing better than terribly to still feel like they're hitting those high notes, so to speak, without that slack being so free as to leave truly zero difference (in carry potential, not even necessarily clear potential) between those who need that slack to do so and those who do not.
I mean... kinda, but it's also a weird place to tune for "chill and farm", no? It's a 12-minute hallway sprint. If I were looking to "chill and farm gear", the first place that comes to mind is the original Diadem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
In general, it seemed like people were more happy with dungeons when they were harder than they are now, but less hard than, say, pre-nerfs Pharos Sirius. It feels like there's definitely a sweet spot, and that this definitely feels at least a bit easier/lower than that. The most wipes we get are from healers forgetting that Doom randomly vacillates between being dispelled via Esuna and being dispelled via healing allies to full, and healers are pretty well optional (technically, tanks are, too, though at least the run is faster with them than without).
Of course, there are some easy reconciliations here: If a dungeon is supposed to be fast, then reliability of clear speed becomes all the more valuable. The chance of having to run all the way back from the start or the previous boss after a wipe... hurts that. Having a high gap between minimum and maximum item level hurts that. But those are both easy fixes. Since the way to each boss is blocked by mobs anyways, we could just checkpoint progress at the start of the current boss fight, instead of the previous one; that run back is a relic of pre-CD-resets and 30+minute dungeons. We could also either reduce the maximum ilvl or provide better access to and incentive for Minimum Item Level runs.
Imagine, for instance, if we were to add three pieces of tech, Multi-Queue for Roulettes, Personal Loot, and Loot Scaling. The first is obvious; it allows people to queue for 2-3 Roulettes at a time. The second allows Roulette-runners to opt out of the loot pool, replacing the would-be loot with that of the highest rewards they'd have access to within that Roulette's category (e.g., if Expert Roulette were repurposed and they were to get Smileton through a combined Lv90 Roulette, they'd presently get Aetherfont loot and tomes instead). The last means that certain criteria could increase your %bonus on loot by some amount. For now, let's apply this only to Minimum Item Level runs: when doing minimum ilvl content, you (if using Personal Loot) or your party would have a chance to generate bonus loot equal to your (and your party's) ilvl reduced (from max ilvl to min ilvl), including even mount drops (multiplicatively; 30 ilvl -> 30% -> 1% chance * 1.3 = 1.3% chance, not a 31% chance).
From there, we could just move the Minimum Item Level setting from a little-known sub-option locked behind a rarely-touched menu to part of the main queue interface itself, such as by being as a second, smaller/subtler checkmark box right by the current one. Especially if paired with being able to queue for multiple Roulettes at a time, you'd often see players go ahead and use that for the equal or slightly greater rewards per minute and a greater portion of the time spent in combat instead of merely sprinting to the next fight (in the case of dungeons and alliance raids). -
08-23-2023, 06:22 AMSebazyAgain, I think you're failing to grasp what's actually causing these difficulty spikes or troughs. Leveling dungeons are often much more tightly tuned because you tackle them at or very close to the ilvl they are balanced for. Lets take the Vault. It's a level 57 dungeon that drops ilvl 142 gear, you're likely going to have gear around or slightly above ilvl 130 (Aka Ironworks mixed with other dungeon drops around that mark). I'm not sure of the exact number off the top of my head but I believe at level 58 you get synced down to ilvl 160 or thereabouts? The TLDR is that you can't really over gear it either as someone leveling and getting gear on the way up, or as someone doing roulettes that already has way better gear. The dungeon has teeth either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Meanwhile the current most recent expert roulette dungeon is ilvl 605, drops 625 gear but a fresh level 90 can cheaply buy a full set of ilvl 640 gear and start working towards 650-660 gear through tomes, the upcoming 24 man and so forth. Someone who has literally just dinged to level 90 and has an ounce of sense is already overgearing the most recent expert dungeon by 35 ilvl! Meanwhile a BiS raider is 55 ilvl clear of what the dungeon is designed to require.
For tanks and DPS it's not the end of the world, they just whackamole things down harder and faster. For healers, it means we get to press the same button on repeat because everything melts too quickly and the tank can sustain themselves. Quality entertainment.
Really? The example I mentioned (Rabanastre, not lighthouse sorry!) was a 24 man that would routinely murder groups if enough people were slacking. Vote abandons at Hashmal were commonplace to say the least. I suspect your experience consists of Crystal Tower runs where stuff melts in seconds but mark my words, when they were current and relevant content, both Bone Dragon and Behemoth would merrily wipe raids and neither were a pushover. And then there was the likes of Thundergod Cid. I'm sorry but there is no way to sugar coat this. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.Quote:
In my experience, Alliance Raids are just Benny Hill / comedy option content that are designed to be easier for a horde of DPS to queue into. They are fun to have everyone sprinting in a big pack whacking down a few encounters…
Let me make this clear.Quote:
Maybe you should focus on Extreme and Savage if you want a challenge? Isn’t there Ultimate too? Why are you focusing on a narrow subset of the content available to you
This isn't all about difficulty
Let's stick with Byregot as our example. On WHM over a 4:38 fight I pressed my glare key 86 times, my second most pressed ability was Dia at 9 uses, 3rd was Assize at 7, 4th was Rapture at 6.
Now, lets compare that to the same boss but on DNC, over a 4:40 fight, I pressed Cascade 18 times, Sabre Dance 17 times, Fountain 17 times, 4th was fountainfall 15 times.
Can you see the difference there? On Healer I was mashing the same button endless, hoping for something to happen (It didn't). On DNC instead of having to rely on other people's repeated failures to get something to do, I have procs to follow, charges to manage, burst windows to optimise, synergy with a friend. I don't have to give a F and put some effort into it, but I can, and I get a very tangible and noticeable impact in my performance when I do.
Here we have a fight that is almost completely braindead, deals little to no damage outside of severe mechanical fails. As DNC, there is still enjoyment to be had. On WHM it was so painfully dull that I was getting to the point where I just wanted to alt F4 out of the raid whilst I was trying to get the set.
Or perhaps, just perhaps you could put the coolaid down long enough to realise that perhaps, just maybe the current healer formula is simply incredibly stale and boring in trivial content (Which makes up a significant chunk of endgame gameplay even for a super hardcore raider).Quote:
The basic Roulettes are meant for a party of random pubbies of varying skill and give a F levels. Do the harder stuff if you want. As you said, it’s available.
I'm not saying that we don't need trivial easy content in the end game (Although I'll suggest that currently, it's perhaps a bit too easy).
I'm saying that we need something to do in trivial easy content that isn't pressing 1 button 86 or however many times.
We used to have interesting debuff abilities - Removed and given to DPS
We used to have CC that saw genuine use in the really early days - Gone because everything's a face roll
We used to have neat little kit interactions and beneficial synergies with other jobs such as Esunaing Pacification - Gone the way of the dodo
We used to have the cleric stance dance to keep us on our toes and push a sense of risk vs reward - Gone because scary
We used to have to manage our MP resources - Gone because braindead
We used to have several dots with a multitude of different timers to keep tabs on to min max - Gone because homogenisation
AST used to have cards that actually required some thought and improvisation to get the best out of - Gone because everything is balance
SCH used to have 2 independent GCDs and a trait that actively rewarded you for maximising your aetherflow economy promoting maximising your uptime and cast rate - Gone so Sadge could have a reason to exist.
Now you tell me, what did we get in return for losing all of these little facets to our gameplay?
I'm not trying to say that old era healers were perfect, but we've gone from having rough coarse diamonds to a collection of perfectly round, bland and soulless spheres with absolutely zero wrinkles to their game.
Is this really that difficult to understand? -
08-23-2023, 06:31 AMChonkGoblinSuprem
Pressing three buttons in sequence is not significantly more interesting to me than pressing one button. Casting Glare vs casting Glare, Share, and Care in sequence…. Wheeeee!
Who cares? My statement stands that a 123 rotation for healer DPS is a bad idea.
It sounds like the real issue is they handed out those self-heals to all of the tanks (except DRK) and set the mob dps so laughably low that healers have nothing interesting to do unless somebody screws up, which isn’t likely to happen in those encounters.
Still, adding a 123 rotation is a bad idea. That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is. -
08-23-2023, 06:39 AMShurrikhanI agree, but... there's also only been like 2 people across this whole thread to suggest as much, and they were pretty quickly contested.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Or, to put it simply "a 123 rotation" does not encapsulate or even particular represent a "dps" rotation. No actual DPS has only a 123. Such solely describes DRK, PLD, and GNB.
I do think healers having more to heal would be a boon, but you can only increase healing requirements so far before making content inaccessible, while increasing the ceiling of downtime engagement has no such risk. Moreover, they're not mutually exclusive to each other.Quote:
That’s my only point, that a 123 rotation is not the solution to this issue, redesigning the fights so that the healers have to heal is.
Hell, ARR healing, especially, showed that depth and ceiling both in healing itself and in downtime activities are really quite synergetic, especially in any context where MP at least slightly matters and healers have more choice in how they distribute their output per minute among healing and rDPS (rather than so much of their output per minute being locked to "free" healing CDs than their maximum damage output is then reduced to pay for / balance out).
Quite the opposite. That means that "the vast majority of people playing this game" never get to see any redeeming pay-off for their kit having its more fundamental components neutered just to get a kit that only sees compelling use in Ultimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
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08-23-2023, 06:48 AMSebazyPsst, 123 rotations aren't the only option on the table here. If they were to add that sort of thing I actually think it would be best to add it as a PvP style auto combo on 1 button quite frankly as otherwise we are heading straight back into button bloat oblivion so I'm in agreement with you on this detail to some extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
I used Dancer as my example because I think it's one of the best blue prints for how a healer can be made entertaining:
Procs and charges.
These can be off dots ala thundercloud, abilities ala feathers, it honestly doesn't really matter. Basically something that isn't on a set timer, don't let us spreadsheet pre plan everything down to the last oGCD like we can currently.
Spice it up with charges, allow us to bank them for burst or movement windows but above all, give us a reason to actually watch the screen and pay attention to what's going on.
It's entirely possible to make healers that are enjoyable and feel impactful even when there's nothing to heal, Swtor and Warhammer Online are both excellent examples of this.
It doesn't even have to be DPS related. AST is right there waiting for it's group contribution to be handled primarily through buffs and augments rather than spending all of it's GCDs spamming the same nuke as everyone else, but SE just don't have the depth within their job team to pull it off sadly. Thus we get the homogenised slush that we are saddled with today. -
08-23-2023, 07:00 AMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Meanwhile, I'm not a fan of heavily RNG-based gameplay (and feel that the randomness of an average party's ability to mistakes, especially if we actually had to use GCD healing, would likely be enough to keep healer damage from being too affixed to a rigid timeline), and therefore wouldn't care much for procs and would instead draw from very different examples (or even something that's merely something fundamental about what can make DPS jobs' optimizations appealing), because... the choices and sources are many and varied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
A "123 combo" is the shallowest, most bloated, least satisfying, least efficient way to shake up or add ceiling to healer downtime. But luckily, that leaves the remaining ~99% of options. -
08-23-2023, 07:24 AMSebazyAgain, your lack of knowledge is showing through.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
Go back to the golden age of Coil, or even a classic dungeon like the aforementioned Vault. Bosses use abilities in quick succession, tank busters are often completely unchoreographed. Basically fights were typically much faster paced and heaped pressure on healers that both had to deal with Cleric Stance AND kits where oGCDs were a rare and valuable luxury, not a given. Even fights that weren't particularly hard still made you think and would merrily punish you if you ignored it.
Now we get fights where cast times can be 10+ seconds long and bosses will routinely literally stand there doing almost nothing of any consequence for 30+ seconds.
The rot with healers goes so much deeper than you seem to realise. Dialling up the damage alone isn't going to solve much.
One thing to add is that the RNG can be smoothed over with RNG normalisation, I'm kind of surprised that SE didn't look at this for HW/SB AST tbh. I'm fairly sure they mentioned having systems in place elsewhere in the game that do this already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Big agree on the remaining options though, there's so many different routes SE could go. How unimaginative does one have to be to think that a 123 combo is the sole option on the table here? ;) -
08-23-2023, 04:22 PMKatish
I think people recommend the standard 1-2-3 without any pizzazz because it's easy to implement and since Square has been lazy on the implementation standards seems more of a likely outcome than any other suggestion. Not that they would prefer it that way, but at this point of getting absolutely nothing to show, would take the easy option if presented.
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08-23-2023, 05:52 PMForsakenRoeRight, but I'd argue that readding Fluid Aura (which still exists in the game files), swapping it from 'ability' to 'spell' so it's a GCD, and then bumping it's potency to be <current stone/glare potency + 30> would also be 'easy to implement', and would be a more interesting way to solve the issue. 123 123 123 ad nauseam is going to have it's novelty wear off pretty fast, at which point it'll just feel like the current 1111111 issue. But having things with standalone timers like above, allows for more design room. Maybe the CD on Fluid Aura/Water can be lowered by a proc so you use it more often. Maybe it has AOE falloff damage so it's useable in AOE too. Maybe it's got some additional effect tied to it that means you'd want to use it for more than just damage, ie it also heals around you for 100p.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katish
123 is the thing some people jump to because it's something other jobs have, and healers do not. It's the first thing that comes to mind even for me, the difference is that where some go with it, others think 'ok that is an option, but what else is there that could be tried'
On the '123 is not the solution', true and agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
In an ideal world, we'd see more damage from encounters, at all levels of gameplay. The issue atm is that we have bosses that stand still autoattacking tanks for like 10 seconds at a time. As an example, the current 'second savage fight' starts out with a raidwide with bleed (which we can address with our many OGCD tools), and a tankbuster that both tanks are meant to share, but often they just invuln instead. Once those are done, and you're moving into the first 'actual mechanic', he's already down 10% of his HP bar. Damage is just too spread out to make healing matter. When the point was raised that healers don't have enough to do, the devs added more damage to each raidwide for the previous tier. And this had a twofold effect: one, it didn't increase the 'healing needed' much, but instead made the fights even more reliant on mitigations. Two, it effectively 'filtered' the players who weren't prepared mentally/skillset-wise for the sudden jump, and so a lot of players quit the role even more. Maybe they came back now, IDK.
Either way, we can look at the previous tier and also see the Extreme Trial at the time, in 6.2, was the complete opposite design: damage came out very quickly, but each raidwide damage instance was actually kind of low damage comparatively. Rather than a raidwide blast of 120% of your HP bar (demanding mit and shields) every 60-90s, it was pulses of, say, 10k at a time leading into a blast of 40k, and this happening every 30-45s instead. This is much better design imo, as, even if the damage total is lower than the 'massive blast' design, the fact that it's more constant damage against the team means that we cannot necessarily just 'kitchen sink' deal with it via OGCDs. We would run out of tools and be forced to use 'actual heals' potentially. If they wanted to increase healing required, or make healers feel like they're 'healing' in Savage etc. then I'd say the way to do it is to look at the design of that specific Extreme. Having more frequent, but lower, damage instances both incentivizes Pure healers (they have a kit more suited to deal with it), while keeping Barrier healers relevant, as even if the damage instances are lower damage, mitigation still helps against them. What we have now is so 'bursty', people sometimes use both SCH and SGE, two barrier healers, to have more mitigation. Because the amount of 'actual healing' that needs to be done is so low, but the amount of 'mitigation required to make the damage non-fatal' is getting ridiculous. The alternative would be to get rid of 'Pure/Barrier healer' and just have 'healer', with WHM and AST getting some mitigation tools of their own, but I doubt SE will backpedal on the split idea so soon (it was only introduced this expansion)
A lot of us don't suggest giving healers more damage moves because we want to focus more on doing damage specifically. I personally am asking for more damage moves because I don't think SE will do 'give us more healing required' correctly. The last time we asked and got it was literal 'monkey's paw' kind of changes. And the point is that lower content (that we still need to do, eg to cap tomes) is not as interesting to people who are very skilled at healers. So, if we raise the healing required in eg Expert Roulette, we potentially shut out people, because they cannot keep up with the new requirements. But with a properly tuned DPS actions addition, the main factor in whether the party fails or not, the healing amount, remains the same, and the 'extra damage tools' are basically superfluous to the average player. They'd be there only for people who want to absolutely push themselves and their job's kit to the limit, for the sake of pushing to the limit, essentially. Potencies can be tuned so that the 'gain' from doing so is less. People who are into optimizing seem to, for the most part, not care much about how big a gain something is, rather, only the fact that 'its a gain'. They'd still use Energy Drain even if it was only 10 potency, because that's 10 potency more than if they didn't use it. Essentially, it's the 'speedrunner option'. Not everyone's a speedrunner. Not everyone's gonna ShineSpark one specific wall in Metroid so they can skip upgrades and get a 0% savefile. But the option is there for those who want to, just as I'd like to see the option be there for those who want to get like 120p more damage per minute against the dungeon bosses, by juggling 3 DOTs instead of the one we have now
I see you have SCH listed as your main class, so here's my suggestion for it: imagine you're in an AOE pull. As it is, you'd spam Art of War. With a suggestion such as mine, you'd have an additional button, Shadowflare, which you'd press once per 15 seconds to drop a puddle under the enemy to deal damage over time to all in the bubble. You don't have to press that new button, just as nobody has to press Art of War currently. In fact, having said 'damage over time effect' means that, even when healing gets hard to keep up with, you've still got a source of damage on the field, so in that regard it'd be better than Art of War
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Which is why we have varying levels of RNG across the PhysRanged role. DNC is big on procs. BRD has 'some' procs, yeh it's lost some of that flavor over the years but it does still have some. And then MCH is completely static in it's rotation. By that logic, wouldn't it make sense to have AST, who already has some RNG via it's cards, have more RNG via it's cards by doubling down on making the cards 'the job identity', ie by having Minor Arcana do something more than 'it's a heal you didn't need or an OGCD Malefic'? And then WHM would be the zero-procs, zero RNG, static 'MCH rotation' style gameplay.
I agree that for the most part, RNG is not a good thing to have on a healer, especially for healing output (which is why I dislike Minor Arcana), reliability is the key component for healing tools, just as with tanks and mitigation tools. People dislike Dark Mind for that reason, it's 'magic only' aspect makes it unreliable, because you don't know if something's magic or not until it's killed you at least once. So if we instead made it so that, while the end-goal of the RNG-fed gameplay is the same (for example, you deal a total of 300p to the enemy), but the RNG dictates HOW you reach that goal (ie, a buff that increases autoattack speed vs a buff that gives mit and reflects damage, vs a buff that makes spells hit twice), then the 'reliability' factor is met, because the result is always the same, you deal the damage. But the 'react to the thing' gameplay feel can retain the things that give it flavor, and make it unique. Minor Arcana's current Lord of Crowns does not feel unique, beyond the fact that 'sometimes it's a heal instead lmao'. But as above, if the way you deal that 250p is different and requires reacting to, then it would feel better, while still having the same overall effect of 'deals daamge'.
Perfect example of RNG being detrimental to gameplay: Latest BLU update gave Force Field, 50% mit of either Phys damage, or Magic damage. I doubt anyone's going to use it because why would you want to gamble on whether you live or die? Of course, SE is able to address this with dual TBs where one hit is Physical, and one is Magical, but then Diamondback mitigates both for 90% so you might as well use that instead. Unless it's entirely for E12S's TBs? IIRC one was Piercing and one was Magic, but adding a whole magic spell just to address one specific encounter is pretty goofy -
08-23-2023, 05:58 PMKatish
I meant easy to implement because it can share functionality. Inherit from a function 1-2-3 for all jobs and be done without making anything too specific, while higher skill procs are controlled conditionally outside of the 1-2-3. This future proofing any design choice or new job added altogether but by this standard is very homogenized at the end of the day (very similar to what's already here if not what is here already).
Not that this is good design choice but is the design choice we basically have outside a few exceptions. -
08-23-2023, 06:23 PMForsakenRoe
I mean, if the choice is '123, or nothing at all', then I guess we take the 123. But if we had only one chance to convince SE to try anything at all, and if it failed then we'd never get to try again, then I'd rather not go with 123 because I don't think it'd be different enough to qualify as 'successful rework'. 123 has potential to be interesting under certain circumstances (monk), but also dull as dishwater (most other jobs, but especially RPR/DRK yeesh they're bland)
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08-23-2023, 10:35 PMChonkGoblinSuprem
I don’t care about all of that other stuff, but adding any kind of DPS rotation to healers is a really awful idea. That is my only thesis. That is my sole argument. I am not arguing that SE should change nothing. I am only arguing that adding a DPS rotation so that the answer to these issues becomes “push slightly different butans,” is a truly terrible idea that does nothing substantial except waste some space on my crossbar.
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08-23-2023, 11:40 PMKatishI would faithfully argue that select heal buttons already do that...if you have to artificially increase healing by some potency than rather incorporate a button that just does that, it defeats the purpose when healing is either you did your job or didn't. Not to mention skills that have a clear upgrade but still exist take up space still (Why does Cure I not evolve into Cure II).Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem
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08-23-2023, 11:50 PMSupersnow845
^it doesn’t justify its existence but if cure 1 upgraded into 2 coils would become all but unclearable at MINE
Healers are just wrong on every single front imaginable I can’t even offer a solution to the above problem without messing up 9 other things -
08-23-2023, 11:56 PMChonkGoblinSuprem
Why do you keep both on your bar? I don’t always need to keep Ruin II on my crossbar, but I do swap it out with Ruin/Broil depending on the level of the dungeon I’m running.
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08-24-2023, 01:02 AMKatishBecause level sync is a thing, and you might queue into an older dungeon where Cure II (or your heal equivalent) cannot be used. Kind of hilarious when you think about it lel. I have mentioned in other posts before but dps healers have already been proven to work with the system given Blu Mage healers are a thing when it comes to hunting spells and such, and still have the option to press the dps buttons should they choose to do so. And they have heals that don't overstay their welcome...and accomplish really all they need to accomplish where the current system is concerned. If you haven't tried Blu Mage I recommend giving it a shot and then reassessing the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem