Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Good players won't give a hoot what you want to do, if you will pull one group at a time in level 70 content and the group wants to go fast you will be thrown out of that dungeon faster than you can blink. You as a tank aren't the ultimate god, you are a player. You are replaceable. If you as a tank refuse to do your job, you will be replaced by someone better.

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I single pull as a tank no matter the content, never been kicked : ^)

What you're saying is circumstantial to you, and not the entire player-base dear.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Lol this is not in the list either and is worst...

If you don't want to meet people with different play styles, go play solo games and stop playing MMO.

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http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

Ever see this? It came from a GM.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

Ever see this? It came from a GM.

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Ho never saw that. Thanks that's good to know.

But for my concern I will never do that because I feel it's rude and pointless. I hope I am not the only one thinking this way.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Ho never saw that. Thanks that's good to know.

But for my concern I will never do that because I feel it's rude and pointless. I hope I am not the only one thinking this way.

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Just to further clarify, I am not advocating for people to kick for this immediately. I just feel that if the majority of the group asks for larger pulls (per the OP) and the tank refuses to even try it. Fair game to kick.

If they are pulling small and no one says anything? I'll just dps as hard as I can and say nothing either. I WILL be silently annoyed though :(

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Originally Posted by Gula

I single pull as a tank no matter the content, never been kicked : ^)

What you're saying is circumstantial to you, and not the entire player-base dear.

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Just because they haven't kicked you doesn't mean they were happy about it either. I find that the tank mass pulls in endgame dungeons far more often than not... so my expectation is that mass pulls will happen in endgame dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I single pull as a tank no matter the content, never been kicked : ^)

What you're saying is circumstantial to you, and not the entire player-base dear.

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A lot of people are afraid to speak due to SE rules banning for everything even remotely negative.

In endgame content, mass pulls is the standard. Either bring yourself to that standard or get kicked from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Kicking people doesnt teach them anything, other than to hate other players, or kick players that annoy them, if they accept your premise.

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i think this is the root of a lot of peoples issue. they take kicks waaaay too personally. its not an attack on you as a player to be removed from a group.

when heavensward came out, i kicked so many dark knight players because of no cooldowns, losing hate, bad gear, etc. i didnt want to work with them playing like that.

nothing personal, just business.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

If they are pulling small and no one says anything? I'll just dps as hard as I can and say nothing either. I WILL be silently annoyed though :(

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Same here.

But then again I am equally annoyed by healers not DPSing, DPS thinking yellow stuff makes them do more damage and DPS being apparently semi AFK due to stuff living so long that I get to see new abilities I've never seen before. :D

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

when heavensward came out, i kicked so many dark knight players because of no cooldowns, losing hate, bad gear, etc.

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Kicking b/c of bad gear is rather dumb, after all, the tank is most likely visiting the dungeon to get gear.
Unless the gear is so bad that it hinders the run (not really possible due to min ilvl req) I never kick because of gearz. Oo

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Same here.

But then again I am equally annoyed by healers not DPSing, DPS thinking yellow stuff makes them do more damage and DPS being apparently semi AFK due to stuff living so long that I get to see new abilities I've never seen before. :D

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On this, we fully agree :)

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Kicking b/c of bad gear is rather dumb, after all, the tank is most likely visiting the dungeon to get gear.
Unless the gear is so bad that it hinders the run (not really possible due to min ilvl req) I never kick because of gearz. Oo

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Sadly there is no min ilvl requirement in leveling dungeons which tends to be where gear matters most. You can go into Aurum Vale naked. I wouldn't recommend it, acid all over the floor and whatnot, but the game will let you.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Sadly there is no min ilvl requirement in leveling dungeons which tends to be where gear matters most. You can go into Aurum Vale naked. I wouldn't recommend it, acid all over the floor and whatnot, but the game will let you.

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Naked chars in a dungeon filled with Morbol.. you just had to put that image into my head, did you now. :<

Okay I can understand that as it falls into the category of "hindering the run" if the tank is geared so badly that the healer can't cope. I did have some of these tanks back in ARR esp in Brayflox and sometimes the run had to be aborted b/c it was impossible for me to heal them.

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Originally Posted by Moshimoshikami

Stop lying to yourselves... "Bad player" or "Doesn't meet my expectation" is not in the list of the kick interface.

If you start a kick petiton because a tank pulls groups too small for your taste, it means you are lying when filling the kick request and that you are abusing the kick system, which is against TOS.
That kind of behaviour should not be tolerated by GM...

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half the things people have listed as "more valid" arent in the kick interface.

tank not tanking at all, healer not healing at all, dps auto attacking, not using cooldowns, wearing ilvl 200 gear in a level 67 dungeon. most people would kick for those reasons but according to you, doing so is against ToS and should be punished.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

half the things people have listed as "more valid" arent in the kick interface.

tank not tanking at all, healer not healing at all, dps auto attacking, not using cooldowns, wearing ilvl 200 gear in a level 67 dungeon. most people would kick for those reasons but according to you, doing so is against ToS and should be punished.

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According to people like Moshimo, players who are good are supposed to carry everyone in the game that's dead weight. God forbid you demand they do their job, or even worse, god forbid you kick them! Everyone knows 1 person is more important than the rest of the raid!

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

This seems more like a case of people taking a video game waaaaaaaay too seriously, and using the kick option in abusive ways.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

This seems more like a case of people taking a video game waaaaaaaay too seriously, and using the kick option in abusive ways.

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People don't enjoy others wasting their time. The "it's not a job" is incredibly disingenuous. Very few people treat it as a job, but that does not mean that people should be forced to be tolerant of those they feel are making the game not fun for them.

Note: I rarely-to-never kick anyone, and when I do 99.5% of the time it is for a DC, BUT the "lol it's just a game bro" is so incredibly pants on head idiotic that I felt compelled to comment.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

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The moment performance, especially low performance, is detrimental to the enjoyment for the majority of the party.

I don't think either side will convince the other side otherwise, since it seems like it comes down to whether you're the "I play games for FUN" type or the "I don't like wasting my time" type. In the end it's as it started, people will continue to think tanks have the right to do what they want and if they match up with people who don't believe that, they have the chance to be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

According to people like Moshimo, players who are good are supposed to carry everyone in the game that's dead weight. God forbid you demand they do their job, or even worse, god forbid you kick them! Everyone knows 1 person is more important than the rest of the raid!

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Honestly? I'm pretty sure that's the plan.

Do you remember Shinryu normal at launch? It was such good proof of this concept. People would disband constantly (or so the OF and Reddit claimed, I didn't see more than 2 myself) and that was because the DF had yet to give them a group of randoms with enough collective skill to clear. You'll also notice the people who were complaining the loudest about all the disbanding were... let's just say "not the best" players.

Point blank that's because skilled people were able to cart more of their groups over the finish line whether that's through good dps/healing/mitigation or a combo of the three. The expectation of the dev team is that the bit of the playerbase that approaches something resembling competence will be enough to carry the rest of these people to victory.

And we still get called tOxIc ElItIsTs all the way through.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

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It's part of our capitalistic culture. A person is only as much worth as his work capacity. When he doesn't go all in he is "lazy" and has to be replaced with someone else.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

The moment performance, especially low performance, is detrimental to the enjoyment for the majority of the party.

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Your signature is a perfect example of that statement, which I agree on completely.

I can't speak for others, but I find that playing a job efficiently is quite fun. It's satisfying to see things melting in front of your eyes, no matter what job you play. When I mention efficiency, in case you guys want to exaggerate this once again, I don't mean "savage or 100th on FFLogs" level of performance, just the job at the best of your capabilities to get stuff done in a timely manner.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

This seems more like a case of people taking a video game waaaaaaaay too seriously, and using the kick option in abusive ways.

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When did it become acceptable for people to waste other peoples time? When did "i play for fun omg get a life" become an excuse to never learn anything and better yourself? When did a casual player time become more valuable than a midcore or hardcore player?

I will do everything in my power to be as strong as possible and avoid wasting the time of the people i'm partied/raiding with.

In MMOs performance has always been directly related to the enjoyment of the party as a whole. If a person is underperforming horribly to the point it's affecting everything(which is surprisingly common), the majority of the party will no longer enjoy playing.

Why is it that you people believe ONE persons enjoyment is more valuable than the other 7 in the party? What kind of selfish arrogance is this?

Just make it so a person can leave without a penalty after ten or twenty minutes have passed. Or cut the penalty timer in half.

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Originally Posted by ShadowYomi

Just make it so a person can leave without a penalty after ten or twenty minutes have passed. Or cut the penalty timer in half.

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I would rather kick the problem then have the 3 people who aren't the problem leave without penalty.
Kicked player can queue back up right away.

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's part of our capitalistic culture. A person is only as much worth as his work capacity. When he doesn't go all in he is "lazy" and has to be replaced with someone else.

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I'm confused.

This makes it seem like you're implying that a person who isn't doing their best isn't being lazy? That's like... the definition of lazy - not trying.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

This makes it seem like you're implying that a person who isn't doing their best isn't being lazy? That's like... the definition of lazy - not trying.

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Actually, you do not know what is a persons best. Just because you or I might find sth pathetically easy, does not mean it comes easy to everyone.
I'm sure there are players out there that are really trying their best but simply aren't cut out for the game.

I have encountered these kinds of people and that's why I am hesitant to kick based on subpar performance alone.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Actually, you do not know what is a persons best. Just because you or I might find sth pathetically easy, does not mean it comes easy to everyone.
I'm sure there are players out there that are really trying their best but simply aren't cut out for the game.

I have encountered these kinds of people and that's why I am hesitant to kick based on subpar performance alone.

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I don't know their best but I know that with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic that I shouldn't see some of the poor play that I do.

No one is asking for everyone to be a Savage raider but doing things like AoE, dps as a healer and using CDs as a tank is miles away from that and those are things anyone can do because anyone can read their tooltips.

If they don't they're lazy and a kick isn't out of the question.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Actually, you do not know what is a persons best. Just because you or I might find sth pathetically easy, does not mean it comes easy to everyone.
I'm sure there are players out there that are really trying their best but simply aren't cut out for the game.

I have encountered these kinds of people and that's why I am hesitant to kick based on subpar performance alone.

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Just as a reminder, the situation of the tank getting kicked in the OPs story was in The Burn, a level 70 dungeon that requires post stormblood progression, and an iLvl of 340.
If we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill (tank pulling more then 4 enemies, healers DPSing, DPS using AOEs) then the skill requirement is ZERO, because these are basic things you learn by level 50 of playing a class.. like, as in your very first time playing any DPS, or tank, or healer when you first decided to get the game.

If the basics aren't in your skill set by level 70, you are still gonna get kicked.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I don't know their best but I know that with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic that I shouldn't see some of the poor play that I do.

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I expect with basic reading comprehension and the application of logic, school mathematics should be a problem for no one.
Yet I have met people with dyscalculia that cannot reliably perform simple arithmetic operations no matter how hard they try.

We are talking about the 4 basic math operations here, if we have to baby people enough that the most basic things are considered a skill then the skill requirement is ZERO.
Yeah, we do that plenty IRL.

Why should we behave so differently in video games meant to entertain and relax?

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Actually, you do not know what is a persons best. Just because you or I might find sth pathetically easy, does not mean it comes easy to everyone.
I'm sure there are players out there that are really trying their best but simply aren't cut out for the game.

I have encountered these kinds of people and that's why I am hesitant to kick based on subpar performance alone.

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Thank you, It's quite possible People may have a mental of physical handicap or maybe they are just slow at picking things up, but they just want to enjoy playing the game. When we are talking about roulette and quest dungeons I think it's really unfair to call them " bad" or "lazy" when as you say they are trying their best. This is a game and it is meant to be enjoyed by everyone not just a select few. The Devs do a good job at having content for all skill levels and it shows. It falls to us as players to also be just as inclusive.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

Objectively false. Aoe > single target... you literally surpass the damage you would be doing with smaller pulls... more damage faster = things die faster.... = dungeon done sooner.

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Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

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You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.

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IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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I have never had an instance where slapping 3 regens on a tank in a dungeon wasn't enough to have me not even need to heal them.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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I mean what you say can be said the same of single pulling. Like, bad players will be bad in large groups or small groups so that's a silly argument. IF players can use aoe in a general sense, it'll be more damage to have large groups, doesn't even matter if they're hitting all the mobs or not as long as they're hitting MORE than the single group. Of course tanks have to use cooldowns and healers have to heal, that's part of playing the game. If anything tanking is easier in a large group aoe situation because it just becomes using your aoe skills instead of cycling through and single targetting. Healing is mind dead easy no matter what you're doing, and in a large group situation the ogcd damage you have does more damage per use.

Edit: also literally every job has good aoe these days. Not sure why you keep focusing on that point. We aren't talking about leveling dungeons here.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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That's a lot of IFs but none of these are super hard to accomplish.

-Mobs grouped well? Most of the cases they are. VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS REALLY, like the 2 worms at the end of The Burn, they are annoying. If you know on which mob you could apply your AoE, you'll target most if not all of them.

-DPS paying attention? Few instances where certain DPS have linear or conal AoE can be an issue, but even so, there's a gain even if you miss few of them. Refer to "IF" number 3.

-If the DPS have good AoE? ALL DPS have decent AoE. Except for SMN (tri-disaster outside of dreadwyrm trance), most of them have 100 to 110 potency AoE attacks, which on 3+ targets, it adds up considerably. Imagine having 440 potency per GCD and that's only hitting 4 targets. That's a lot of a damage compared to your usual rotation.

-If there aren't many ground effects? Few instances as well, we can mention the exceptions, but it doesn't mean all the cases are like that. Even so, both melees and ranged are quite mobile, they can dodge as they AoE. Ranged magical DPS are somewhat safer or have fast casts/DoTs that would make up for it.

-If tank stuff? I don't think there's any complexity here. 1 button for a cooldown, 1 button for... an AoE rotation? Overpower, Flash or Decimate/Steel Cyclone, DA abbysal drain/salted earth spam barely require a strict rotation. Cooldowns are used from the biggest to the smallest. It's not rocket science.

-If healer stuff? Playing healer myself, healing is braindead in dungeons. SCH? Blow your fairie's regen, tether them and put excog on them: Go ham. WHM? Slap regens on them: Go ham. AST? Regens or shields: Go ham. They also have offgcds to use in between their DPS spam and "oh sh-" heals.

You are making it sound like the planets must be aligned for that to happen, which it's completely untrue. Most of them require the bare minimum knowledge of your job to pull it off.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

According to people like Moshimo, players who are good are supposed to carry everyone in the game that's dead weight. God forbid you demand they do their job, or even worse, god forbid you kick them! Everyone knows 1 person is more important than the rest of the raid!

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What... raid? Hold your horses, I am talking about casual content here. The content which is dedicated to 100% of the player base.

For raid, players use the party finder and define the rules before entering the instance.

Btw please don't try to write what I think on my behalf.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

IF the mobs are grouped up well
IF the dps are actually paying attention and hitting all the mobs
IF the dps you have in your group have good AoE
IF there aren't a lot of ground effects forcing a lot of movement and inefficient AoEs
IF the tank knows what they are doing and uses CDs and correct rotation
IF the healer can keep up with healing and still dps

That's a lot of "ifs". The fact of the matter is that single group pulls (not single target killing) can be just as fast as group pulls depending on the situation. If enough of the "ifs" aren't met in large group pulling, it can take quite a long time to down the mobs.

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Lets face it how it is: It doesn't matter how you pull if your party sucks, it will take forever one way or the other. You made up examples with the worst possible players to justify small pulls.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's a lot of "ifs".

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The "ifs" are met in 95% of all cases.
It is really easier to save time by faceroll AoEing.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

When did this game become a job; where performance was more important then enjoyment?

This seems more like a case of people taking a video game waaaaaaaay too seriously, and using the kick option in abusive ways.

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The thing with this "but muh fun" argument is, that it goes both ways.
We all want to have our fun in a game but as soon as you play with 3/7/23 others, playing the way you want, no matter the consequences for others, is egoistic. As soon as your group up with others you have to find some middle ground.
That means for competent players, who enjoy fast and efficient play, that they can hand out advice (politely, mind you!) but must realise that they cannot force someone to step it up to their level just like that.
It means for players who do less than basics and usually play however they like without giving their performance much (if any) thought, that they should at least try to not be detriminal as long as they are with a group. The moment you leave, you can continue to play whichever way you like and if you enjoy thundering mobs to death as a BLM, go for it. Your decision.

Lacking basic competence is inherently detriminal to the group, competence is not. That's something people should keep in mind when they say "I play however I want".
Looking down on people who tend to carry others isn't going to get you anyhwere.

I don't see how entitlement plays in to the OP. It sounds like the majority of the group wanted to "speed run" while the 1 remaining member, who just happens to be the tank, did not. It's fair to say that tank is not for that group, nor that group for that tank.

If a tank doesn't want to try to do large pulls, even with the graces and encouragement of the group - you can't simply force them to. And it should've been left at that.

As a long time tank myself, I do agree that the tank tends to set the pace of the group. I've always used a fair amount of discretion but none-the-less still end up setting the pace. Generally speaking, nothing really stops me from defaulting to large pulls unless someone requests otherwise. In a pug environment I simply play it more safe than not, and with friends I'll push myself and them to the extent the game allows.

If someone want's to be hard-headed about it one way or the other, best thing to do is just agree to disagree and move on. Continuing to belabor a moot point can eventually increase defensiveness and escalate arguments higher than otherwise reasonable.