Bunny outfits for men, not a cryptid!

Please understand that I am not bashing the implementation of this outfit in any way. I didn't want it, but for those that did, congrats! Wear it with pride! But one of my biggest problems with this game is that there is a serious lack of anything masculine in it. Most outfits and even a lot of character models, faces, hairstyles, etc come off as overly feminine on male characters. Why do the majority of pants in this game have to be skin-tight? Why do the majority of boots have to be thigh-high? I understand that there are options out there at the moment for a masculine look, but in comparison, masculinity is way more difficult to come by in this game compared to femininity. Once again, I am not bashing anyone who likes feminine or androgynous styles. In fact I even posted my support in a thread that was advocating for an end to gender-locked glamors. I support people being able to wear what they want, so why can't I have more masculine options the same way that others seem to have a plethora of feminine options? If they're going to take time to make glamors like this for men, it would be nice if they put some more effort into allowing men to be manly when they want to be. A good place to start would be BEARDS!!! I will say it till I'm blue in the face: Give me more beard options!!!! Yes, I know there is a Santa beard, and I have it. But it would be nice if there were more options for facial hair that looked more natural. There really is no substitute for a full, natural-looking beard. But right now the only race that has any decent options are Highlander. And most of them just look like salty old men.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Promising to work on something and then saying "we decided to scrap it because our workers don't want to work on it" is something a company should never do (Yoshi-P asked what players wanted, in front of a crowd.

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Yes as soon as they promised it, it would be bad to go back from that but I was more about them saying no from the very beginning or at least saying that they will look into it and tell us more later. Then they could have used a bit of a time (but not years) to decide if they want to do that or not. But telling us that we will get it, take years to just but the exact same items onto the male bodies is just bad. (IMO) If this would have been something for women I am quite sure that it would not have taken that long.

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Originally Posted by Kohdo

To concur with what someone else said, the sex of the developers/designers is irrelevant. If something players want doesn't quite fit with the devs' overall plan for the game, they shouldn't feel obliged to include it. Especially if it's a bad Rocky Horror knock-off like this.

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And yet somehow I have the feeling that they would have less problems with sexy clothes for women. So for me it just feels like they do find it uncomfortable because they are mostly male devs. Again my problem is more that if they feel so uncomfortable to do something like that for males then why do it? Instead of letting those that truly wanted the outfit wait for over two years.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

True, but they can still learn from this ordeal.

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The lesson from this is probably something like "don't talk to the community because they're fickle, confused, and will hate it if you give them what they ask for."

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The lesson from this is probably something like "don't talk to the community because they're fickle, confused, and will hate it if you give them what they ask for."

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To be fair, that's not wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Yes as soon as they promised it, it would be bad to go back from that but I was more about them saying no from the very beginning or at least saying that they will look into it and tell us more later. Then they could have used a bit of a time (but not years) to decide if they want to do that or not. But telling us that we will get it, take years to just but the exact same items onto the male bodies is just bad. (IMO) If this would have been something for women I am quite sure that it would not have taken that long.

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Well they released the Gold Saucer bunny outfit for females a second time (first time being on Gold Saucers release) while giving nothing to males, so... it definitely does look like they're fine with making sexy glamour for females, but not for males. Double standards, or something like that.

Next thing they can probably work on making unisex is the Thvanairian Bustier set. It's not exactly as "out there" as the bunny outfit, so it shouldn't make the designers uncomfortable (and this has been requested for in the past as well, I believe. I think someone made a thread and even posted concepts of how it would look). Of course, I'm sure after releasing this, players would prefer something masculine first.

As I've said before, my biggest concern about making unisex gear available to everybody is it just...encourages the developers to make more and more gear with a feminine/androgynous vibe to it. Gear being gender locked isn't really a concern of mine so much as there being a disproportionate amount of focus on feminine glamour. They can unlock more female only sets but not only will that suck up more development time/resources it still doesn't do much towards giving male characters more cool/masculine looking options.

I will wear the bunny outfit solely because there will be idiots triggered so hard by it that they will type something in-game. You know that's gonna happen, and I'm gonna cherish the hell out of those situations.

i like it that they used the same in the sense that they didn't make a skimpy version for females and then a fully dressed version for males. I'd have prefered a topless version though, but maybe in the future?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

To be fair, that's not wrong.

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They'd be drawing the wrong lesson, then, precisely because there's different groups asking for different things. I think Theodric has articulated what many of us playing guy characters actually wanted. Growing indignant because we're not happy with what was offered, when it wasn't us who was asking for that, is folly. Like you said, it is important if they want to understand why they're losing revenue, should it come to that, or alternatively facing the risk of that. Appearance plays a big role in an MMO, especially since a good deal of it consists of a gear hamster wheel.

There's a 38 pages thread in the JP forums with people requesting an option to remove others' custom glamour client side

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...363743/?page=1

Not explicitly fueled by the bunny suit but it was posted after the bunny suit was revealed.

So far the opposition is 3 times as big as those asking for it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They'd be drawing the wrong lesson, then, precisely because there's different groups asking for different things. I think Theodric has articulated what many of us playing guy characters actually wanted. Growing indignant because we're not happy with what was offered, when it wasn't us who was asking for that, is folly. Like you said, it is important if they want to understand why they're losing revenue, should it come to that, or alternatively facing the risk of that. Appearance plays a big role in an MMO, especially since a good deal of it consists of a gear hamster wheel.

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Spending resources to put a requested glamour in the game spawning tons of complaints that they didn't add a different glamour to the game hardly seems worth the effort and mostly just makes the community look ridiculous. Can't be happy that someone else got something they requested that doesn't negatively impact anyone who doesn't want it in any way?

Oy.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

There's a 38 pages thread in the JP forums with people requesting an option to remove others' custom glamour client side

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...363743/?page=1

Not explicitly fueled by the bunny suit but it was posted after the bunny suit was revealed.

So far the opposition is 3 times as big as those asking for it.

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It's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out from this point onwards.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Spending resources to put a requested glamour in the game spawning tons of complaints that they didn't add a different glamour to the game hardly seems worth the effort and mostly just makes the community look ridiculous. Can't be happy that someone else got something they requested that doesn't negatively impact anyone who doesn't want it in any way?

Oy.

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Perhaps your perception is the issue here.

There is no singular "community" as such, nor a spokesperson for it. Accordingly, players who wanted this (a tiny minority of those playing male toons) are happy, whereas those who want actual glamours made in a masculine fashion would have preferred for SE to introduce that for their toons, instead, and are dissatisfied that 1) that has not been forthcoming (in addition to an overall deficit of such glamours for male toons) and 2) do consider it to be a use of dev resources that could have been put to that use. Pretending that this makes the "community" look ridiculous is just willful misunderstanding of what is being said, and although I can forgive some players for being so myopic, if SE held to such a view, I'd be less understanding. In fact, I'd consider it a fairly petty response and not one befitting a multimillion company with SE's reputation, which should have a solid understanding of consumer segmentation. They are perfectly capable of designing brilliant masculine outfits, as evidenced in FFXV. Perhaps different design teams, but the talent is there, and FFXIV is one of their big moneymakers, with a roughly equal split between male and female toons.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

There is no singular "community" as such, nor a spokesperson for it. Accordingly, players who wanted this (a tiny minority of those playing male toons) are happy, whereas those who want actual glamours made in a masculine fashion would have preferred for SE to introduce that for their toons, instead, and are dissatisfied

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Yes, there is no singular community in a sense that we all have differing opinions, but we are still the FFXIV community despite that.

How people treat SE on these forums reflects on us as a community.

Too many people just don't look objectively at something due to their subjective feelings on it and therefore don't give proper objective respect and appreciation for when SE bends to requests specifically from the FFXIV community (whichever part of that community happens to get their request approved doesn't matter.)

Being diplomatic about it would reflect better on us as a community. Offer thanks and appreciation that SE did a request part of the community asked for, then offer more ideas and critiques and campaign for things you (or a subset of the community) would like to see. If we lack appreciation they may stop bothering answering community requests at all.

The thank you and appreciation that SE is trying to fulfill requests from the community is lacking in my opinion.

As I said in my earlier post:

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Originally Posted by Miste

The criticisms are fine....the issue I have is that no one seems to balance it out by acknowledging what SE did do.

Sure there is a lot of stuff SE does that I don't like, but I can give objective credit where credit is due.

They did this even though they kind of openly admitted they didn't want to, just to try to make a portion of the FFXIV players happy.

This is the first time, as far as I remember, that they have ever changed a female locked glamour set to being able to be worn by males.

I mean these are the first steps, they have been trying to listen, but they may stop listening if people are showing zero appreciation for what they tried to do and calling the company lazy isn't going to help us get more opportunities as a community to ask for what we want in the game.

Sure, you might not have been in the camp that wanted a direct copy of the female version, but acknowledge what I listed above and then add critiques of what you want to see in the future and keep campaigning for more male glamours in general. They will be way more likely to keep putting the effort in if they can see the player base being at least partially appreciative.

When it comes to SE bending to requests from the community only posting negativity and not posting a few of the positives (no matter how small they may be) just won't help us get more things we want in my opinion.

Have to remember it is their game, not ours, they obviously want to keep their subscribers happy of course otherwise they wouldn't make a profit, but honestly the game wasn't going to crash and burn just because they ignored a male bunny suit request, but they still did it anyway right?

I mean older MMOs basically never listened to the players when it came to development (most didn't even have an official forums). Something like a campaign for a certain set of glamour in old games it would have been unheard of for the game company to listen at all. So I really feel some appreciation is needed here even if you have critiques to go with it that is fine.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

There's a 38 pages thread in the JP forums with people requesting an option to remove others' custom glamour client side

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...363743/?page=1

Not explicitly fueled by the bunny suit but it was posted after the bunny suit was revealed.

So far the opposition is 3 times as big as those asking for it.

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It always baffles me just how bothered people are by what other people wear/look like. Not to mention SE makes way too much money selling glamour on Mog Station. There are many, many people who would not continue to buy $12+ skins if suddenly the only person guaranteed to see them was...them. I personally don't see this one happening.

I get their argument (they're talking about their immersion in RP, yes?), but it just seems silly. Even the "canon" outfits in this game aren't always immersive (lady Dragoon armor) but would certainly be something that would probably be bypassed by a glamour turn on/off thing.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

There's a 38 pages thread in the JP forums with people requesting an option to remove others' custom glamour client side

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...363743/?page=1

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FFXI had something similar. Except it just let you see everyone else naked! :o

https://i.imgur.com/aGBoxMF.png

Actually it was performance related for the PS2 version, I think because there was so much gear that it couldn't load properly sometimes. But, it is precedent for SE giving you an option in your settings that changes other players appearances in your game.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

There's a 38 pages thread in the JP forums with people requesting an option to remove others' custom glamour client side

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...363743/?page=1

Not explicitly fueled by the bunny suit but it was posted after the bunny suit was revealed.

So far the opposition is 3 times as big as those asking for it.

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my favorite comment I read roughly translated to “if you are so bothered with other peoples glamour maybe turn off your game”. Bless that poster. An ocean away and we’re on the same wavelength lmao

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Originally Posted by Rokke

my favorite comment I read roughly translated to “if you are so bothered with other peoples glamour maybe turn off your game”. Bless that poster. An ocean away and we’re on the same wavelength lmao

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Yeah, I agree with that person. Will I be wearing this on a male character? No, definitely not. But I won't be bothered in the slightest if I see someone dressed as such. I even have a friend who was like "I'm totally gonna wear that". They play a male Au Ra or Roe depending on their mood.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

It always baffles me just how bothered people are by what other people wear/look like. Not to mention SE makes way too much money selling glamour on Mog Station. There are many, many people who would not continue to buy $12+ skins if suddenly the only person guaranteed to see them was...them. I personally don't see this one happening.
I get their argument (they're talking about their immersion in RP, yes?), but it just seems silly. Even the "canon" outfits in this game aren't always immersive (lady Dragoon armor) but would certainly be something that would probably be bypassed by a glamour turn on/off thing.

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It bothers me that you imply people buy outfits primarily because they know they're going to make others have to see them .

I really don't understand why there'd even been opposition to someone deciding on their own personal computer what they want to see. Yeah, someone wont HAVE to experience your shiny golden pig outfit. I don't think the kind of player who would oppose that on the grounds of "well I can't FORCE people to have me look like that in their dungeon" is the kind of player you'd want to support.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

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Except clothing/makeup/etc. is form of expression: no, most people want to be seen the way that they design themselves to be seen. I don't personally understand what's bothersome about that. If I were to buy an expensive dress offline then I want people to see me in the dress, not look at me and magically see just a plain t-shirt and jeans. If that aspect of being social wasn't so important, people wouldn't fuss so much over how they look both in and out of the game.

So yes: there would be money lost. How much? Well none of us know.

And frankly, if someone running around in a pig suit is ruining your day, then I agree with the poster Rokke mentioned: you need to turn off your game and take a break.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah, I agree with that person. Will I be wearing this on a male character? No, definitely not. But I won't be bothered in the slightest if I see someone dressed as such. I even have a friend who was like "I'm totally gonna wear that". They play a male Au Ra or Roe depending on their mood.

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Im on balmung and trying to use "muh immersion" is still a crap argument for censoring outfits. Theres always gonna be people with tastes I like and tastes I don't. I've long learned to accept the colorful characters on my server lol

Personally, I’m gonna glam it on classes Im still learning/leveling. I figure if Im going to die a lot at least I’ll be laughing.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Except clothing/makeup/etc. is form of expression: no, most people want to be seen the way that they design themselves to be seen. I don't personally understand what's bothersome about that. If I were to buy an expensive dress offline then I want people to see me in the dress, not look at me and magically see just a plain t-shirt and jeans. If that aspect of being social wasn't so important, people wouldn't fuss so much over how they look both in and out of the game.

So yes: there would be money lost. How much? Well none of us know.

And frankly, if someone running around in a pig suit is ruining your day, then I agree with the poster Rokke mentioned: you need to turn off your game and take a break.

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Ruining my day? I'm not that petty. It's an eyesore to me personally at worst for the 10-50 minutes it takes to do a dungeon. I'd never let someone elses choices affect me that badly but I'd greatly enjoy filtering out having to see others choices of certain glamours. I'm just saying that in my own world, on the hardware I pay for, with the access I pay for and using the software I've chosen to install, more customization of what I personally see that affects nobody else is a really weird, bordering on oppressive thing to deny me. I've played many games that allow you to customize how you see other players in your own game. Sometimes for performance, sometimes for my own particular reasons of immersion and theme. Do you know how much money was lost when they put in the yokai watch stuff from people just leaving because it was so goofy and everywhere? probably a similarly unknown amount compared to how many people would quit because they cannot force people to see them.

It's not going to be everyones' preference , sure. But I'll step up and say I'd want that in game. Click a box, everyone gets relegated to the default glamour for certain level ranges. Nobody would know except the player, heck even have it defaulted as off so you'd have to specifically look for it.

I get people dress up in real life but it's usually for themselves or the people around them. However most places I'm forced to be around people for a prolonged amount of time have uniforms or at least dress codes: work, school, even restaurants. Dress how you like by all means but I'm not forced to stick around you if I find what you look like to be displeasing for whatever reason. In real life I dress how I want and I don't give a rats patootie what people think of me, perhaps this is why it's foreign to me how people will be put off simply by people not having to look at them.

The "turn off glamours" thing could run both ways. I would never equip the harness/subligar sets they throw at us for DPS leveling gear in ARR. Then they unlocked glamour for lower level players, so... finally! I can make use of that good-stats aetherial gear because I can glamour it into being something I'm not embarrassed to wear. If they introduced an option for people to turn off glamours and see what I've actually got equipped, I'd be back to not being able to use it.

More generally, if you just equip whatever leveling equipment the last few dungeons handed you, you might look pretty awful in a 'zero costume co-ordination' way.

For every 'joke glamour' you encounter, I'm sure there are a lot more people using glamour to make their characters look better than they would otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For every 'joke glamour' you encounter, I'm sure there are a lot more people using glamour to make their characters look better than they would otherwise.

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But you would never know unless someone specifically said something. Also, most games that use a "remove customization" option have a generic glamour for whatever class or job you are to make you easily identifiable. You'd just be another pair of arms and legs in a robe possibly. I may be the weird one here, but does it honestly bug you that much that someone you will never meet, and likely will never see again even in game doesn't see you wearing your shiny things?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

does it honestly bug you that much that someone you will never meet, and likely will never see again even in game doesn't see you wearing your shiny things?

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Not necessarily my specific glamour (though I do like to put the effort into making my character look nice, in a lore-appropriate way) but my personal taste in clothing is *not* the short skirts that are this game's default style for a lot of female costume designs. My character is representing me in the game, so I don't like the idea of my character being auto-equipped in it by someone else when I deliberately chose to avoid wearing it.

The thought of it is uncomfortable in the same way that I would be if, in the real world, I had to wear something I don't want to wear, and be seen by other people - maybe they don't know me and they'll never see me again, but I still know that people saw me dressed like that.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The lesson from this is probably something like "don't talk to the community because they're fickle, confused, and will hate it if you give them what they ask for."

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I think the devs are smart enough to realize that a venn diagram of people exists where the circles for those who asked for this set to be not gender locked include intersecting circles for those who wanted this set specifically and those who wanted a chippendale set. And also that both of those circles are not going to line up with the venn diagram of those who are happy with the new set, those who aren't, and those who would also want a chippendale set and those who don't. Communities are complex, not confused.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Not necessarily my specific glamour (though I do like to put the effort into making my character look nice, in a lore-appropriate way) but my personal taste in clothing is *not* the short skirts that are this game's default style for a lot of female costume designs. My character is representing me in the game, so I don't like the idea of my character being auto-equipped in it by someone else when I deliberately chose to avoid wearing it.
The thought of it is uncomfortable in the same way that I would be if, in the real world, I had to wear something I don't want to wear, and be seen by other people - maybe they don't know me and they'll never see me again, but I still know that people saw me dressed like that.

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I concede that people in your personal situation would have a problem, and perhaps that's why we don't have this option to begin with. In fact if the thread on the japanese forums represents a true cross section of users.. yeah.. that's probably why not. People just hate having no control over how others see them. I do wonder how they feel about all the people out there modding their own clients and files to make everyone else actually naked or skimpily dressed.. or otherwise weirdly represented.

I'd still cast my vote for allowing customization of my own experience though.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Ruining my day? I'm not that petty.

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I never said you were. You used the pig suit as an example, and so did I. I said "you" in a general sense, not you, Krotoan, specifically. I apologize for coming off that way.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's an eyesore to me personally at worst for the 10-50 minutes it takes to do a dungeon. I'd never let someone elses choices affect me that badly but I'd greatly enjoy filtering out having to see others choices of certain glamours. I'm just saying that in my own world, on the hardware I pay for, with the access I pay for and using the software I've chosen to install, more customization of what I personally see that affects nobody else is a really weird, bordering on oppressive thing to deny me.

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Now see, to an extent I do agree with this. You would think that for an "escape from reality" it would be totally okay to request this sort of thing. A no brainer, even.

But here's the thing: if you (and again, I mean generally, not you specifically. And I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just wanting to make myself clear) were to walk out on the street and straight up tell people that what they're wearing is trash/not worth looking at/etc. and that they should change clothes to your preferences, then most people would agree that you're being a jerk.

Not to mention the option doesn't even solve the "problem" OP is talking about. Even if we had a toggle for glamour, people would just equip the glamour gear normally then to bypass it. Will the OP from the Japanese thread then ask the devs to delete the gear pieces they don't personally believe are immersive then, since the toggle doesn't work?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I've played many games that allow you to customize how you see other players in your own game. Sometimes for performance, sometimes for my own particular reasons of immersion and theme. Do you know how much money was lost when they put in the yokai watch stuff from people just leaving because it was so goofy and everywhere?

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No I don't, but I also know that FFXIV is performing better and growing, so apparently whatever losses from that event are moot now, if they were ever truly that massive to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's not going to be everyones' preference , sure. But I'll step up and say I'd want that in game. Click a box, everyone gets relegated to the default glamour for certain level ranges. Nobody would know except the player, heck even have it defaulted as off so you'd have to specifically look for it.

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So what's the OP in the Japanese thread (and others with their mindset) going to do when they come across default armor in the game that would fit that description, but doesn't fit their personal tastes of what's immersive and what isn't? There's quite a few pieces that are revealing, androgynous, and not indicative of the climate/situation that are level and item level appropriate for those dungeons. Are they going to yell at people playing certain jobs for daring to enter their dungeon party in appropriate gear just because it doesn't suit their tastes still (you came in a level appropriate subligar? KICK!)?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I get people dress up in real life but it's usually for themselves or the people around them. However most places I'm forced to be around people for a prolonged amount of time have uniforms or at least dress codes: work, school, even restaurants. Dress how you like by all means but I'm not forced to stick around you if I find what you look like to be displeasing for whatever reason. In real life I dress how I want and I don't give a rats patootie what people think of me, perhaps this is why it's foreign to me how people will be put off simply by people not having to look at them.

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For bold point number one: (dress codes)

Square Enix themselves have already defined a dress code:

- We have NPCs wearing leopard printed subligars that are important to the MSQ
- We have cat girls/girls in general in very skimpy bikini armor and bikinis in general for various professions (not just they "pleasurable company kind" )
- Both men and women can wear tights of any kind, even thigh highs
- The fashion report in the Gold Saucer is basically an in-game lore thing that shows stuff outrageously...put together is considered in fashion. I don't agree with it, most people don't, but it's there.
- We have main characters dressing pretty outlandishly too (Minfillia, the Weaver's Guild, Hildibrand, etc.)

So frankly, it is lore appropriate that adventurers can wear whatever the heck they want/can come up with. Which is why "my immersion" is such a weak argument. For performance? Sure, if people want the option to turn off gear like in FFXI to help with performance on their machines that's a totally different thing that should be allowed. But that's not what that JP thread is arguing for.

For point number two ("I have the right to ignore you"):

You can already do this now.

If someone hopping into a dungeon in an outfit that infuriates you is enough to ruin your dungeon run, then you are in your right to leave the dungeon. If someone runs by you in the game world in an outfit you despise or find offensive, guess what? No one's forcing you to turn your camera and watch them run into the horizon. If someone is deliberately following you and making you uncomfortable knowing what they're wearing is making you uncomfortable, you can report them for harassment. You can then move on with what you're doing. And as I've said already, people will just equip the glamour by itself so only dungeon runs are "safe."

That's why, to me personally, the immersion argument makes no sense whatsoever. Performance? Totally get that: then let everyone else be naked or wear a default potato sack. But just because they don't suit your tastes? You should probably not play in a multiplayer game where you're going to be forced into content with people of very different backgrounds, and frankly, tastes.

guys dont get cute stuff like bunny ears as accessories in video games too often, so this is kinda exciting to me. things like this serve a very small minority that is very rarely (if ever) catered to in mainstream games. please just let us have this one small treat without making a big fuss

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Originally Posted by Rokke

Im on balmung and trying to use "muh immersion" is still a crap argument for censoring outfits.

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Yeah... I've pretty much given up on "immersion" ever since they let the Adamantoise fly (and then letting everything else fly).

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

I never said you were. You used the pig suit as an example, and so did I. I said "you" in a general sense, not you, Krotoan, specifically. I apologize for coming off that way.

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No apology necessary and I don't want to be standoffish. Just being specific. I want it plainly said that I'm not being outraged here, I'm just trying to discuss. =]

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Now see, to an extent I do agree with this. You would think that for an "escape from reality" it would be totally okay to request this sort of thing. A no brainer, even.

But here's the thing: if you (and again, I mean generally, not you specifically. And I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm just wanting to make myself clear) were to walk out on the street and straight up tell people that what they're wearing is trash/not worth looking at/etc. and that they should change clothes to your preferences, then most people would agree that you're being a jerk.

Not to mention the option doesn't even solve the "problem" OP is talking about. Even if we had a toggle for glamour, people would just equip the glamour gear normally then to bypass it. Will the OP from the Japanese thread then ask the devs to delete the gear pieces they don't personally believe are immersive then, since the toggle doesn't work?

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I appreciate the clarification. I have taken no offense so far and as long as you remain civil I will do my utmost to keep this on the level of discussing differing opinions on even ground. I'm suggesting something like the system the Grand Company Squadron uses. Other than the "unique " outfits you can unlock for special rare recruits, they all adhere to a mostly modest dress code. If you can make these the "generic" look I'd say you'd solve most peoples problems. This is what I'm proposing, not just "turning off" glamours. This really isn't comparable to telling someone in real life you don't like how they look. This is much more like if you had a magic pair of glasses that re-dressed everyone you looked at into something pleasing to you or at least inoffensive. What would be the harm to everyone else? Heck, you might even be nicer to some people because they weren't offending your sensibilities even subconsciously. It's SUPER selfish, but not imposing though. You aren't telling people to change themselves, you're changing your own perception. I re-iterate: Nobody would know unless you said something.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

No I don't, but I also know that FFXIV is performing better and growing, so apparently whatever losses from that event are moot now, if they were ever truly that massive to begin with.

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I'd say additional subscriptions would more than make up for anyone lost who simply cannot stand their choices being enforced by the game. But then again I also don't know the numbers, so I'd probably just let this line of argument go.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

So what's the OP in the Japanese thread (and others with their mindset) going to do when they come across default armor in the game that would fit that description, but doesn't fit their personal tastes of what's immersive and what isn't? There's quite a few pieces that are revealing, androgynous, and not indicative of the climate/situation that are level and item level appropriate for those dungeons. Are they going to yell at people playing certain jobs for daring to enter their dungeon party in appropriate gear just because it doesn't suit their tastes still (you came in a level appropriate subligar? KICK!)?

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^ addressed above, but there are people who wouldn't enjoy everyone neck to ankles clothed either.. however you'll never please everyone, so I'm going to err on the side of modesty in this case so people have the least amount to complain about.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

For bold point number one: (dress codes)

Square Enix themselves have already defined a dress code:

- We have NPCs wearing leopard printed subligars that are important to the MSQ
- We have cat girls/girls in general in very skimpy bikini armor and bikinis in general for various professions (not just they "pleasurable company kind" )
- Both men and women can wear tights of any kind, even thigh highs
- The fashion report in the Gold Saucer is basically an in-game lore thing that shows stuff outrageously...put together is considered in fashion. I don't agree with it, most people don't, but it's there.
- We have main characters dressing pretty outlandishly too (Minfillia, the Weaver's Guild, Hildibrand, etc.)

So frankly, it is lore appropriate that adventurers can wear whatever the heck they want/can come up with. Which is why "my immersion" is such a weak argument. For performance? Sure, if people want the option to turn off gear like in FFXI to help with performance on their machines that's a totally different thing that should be allowed. But that's not what that JP thread is arguing for.

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-We do, but they are area appropriate generally and not thematically or environmentally jarring unless it's for comic effect
-once again, usually lore explained or environmentally explained.
-tights are pretty period for leather and steel wardrobe eras.
-golden saucer is extremely optional experience, and the fashion report is solo. Only you and masked roe know what you chose to show off.
-While they can be revealing MSQ characters clothes are still in-theme. Lopsided, weird cutout, 20 belt buckle theme.

I don't argue that people can dress wildly. Do whatever you want , show as much skin or as little as you want. I argue that whether I have to see it and remain seeing it constantly shouldn't be a choice between that or not experiencing the actual game content I came for.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

For point number two ("I have the right to ignore you"):

You can already do this now.

If someone hopping into a dungeon in an outfit that infuriates you is enough to ruin your dungeon run, then you are in your right to leave the dungeon. If someone runs by you in the game world in an outfit you despise or find offensive, guess what? No one's forcing you to turn your camera and watch them run into the horizon. If someone is deliberately following you and making you uncomfortable knowing what they're wearing is making you uncomfortable, you can report them for harassment. You can then move on with what you're doing. And as I've said already, people will just equip the glamour by itself so only dungeon runs are "safe."

That's why, to me personally, the immersion argument makes no sense whatsoever. Performance? Totally get that: then let everyone else be naked or wear a default potato sack. But just because they don't suit your tastes? You should probably not play in a multiplayer game where you're going to be forced into content with people of very different backgrounds, and frankly, tastes.

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I can leave and incur a penalty. Does that sound fair? True it's opportunity cost and currently the only option. But what if I had another option? Do you think they'd ever know if I turned their glamour off as long as I maintained my job's responsibilities? I honestly don't talk to most people I run with more than "hi" or "I think this boss has a spread out mechanic" . Right now I can mute someone who has annoying macros or turn off sound to avoid sound queues and they never know, how much more trouble to them is it to set them to "potato sack" if they shall never, ever know?
People have their reasons to not want others to be able to show their creativity, but it's just as fair a point to say "you're intruding on my head canon" as it is to claim "in my mind I know you might not be able to see how I'm dressed". Does that make sense? I get the other sides argument but it carries just as much weight as mine does. It's your own personal perception and it affects the actual games progression, mechanics and story very little to none.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I can leave and incur a penalty. Does that sound fair?

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Yes. If you go into a dungeon, those are your options, putting up with whatever you find in there or eat that penalty. Why should you not get a penalty if you left over someone's sense of fashion? Especially if you're a healer or tank? Is it fair you're bailing out on those two dps who spent 30 minutes in queue each just because one of them wore the bunny shirt?
The entire discussion about turning off glamours talks a nice high moral game but it basically boils down to a want to police people's outfits to cater to your own sensitivities.

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People have their reasons to not want others to be able to show their creativity

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It's called censorship, is largely considered bad, and so long as the only complaints here are a mix of "muh immersion" and feeling uncomfortable at a Roe in fishnet stockings, I certainly hope SE isn't going to cave in to this. The only 'dress code' this game should have is a mixture of job restrictions (which people already want gone for glamour!) and ilvl for content. Anything else should really be fair game for the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

This is much more like if you had a magic pair of glasses that re-dressed everyone you looked at into something pleasing to you or at least inoffensive. What would be the harm to everyone else? Heck, you might even be nicer to some people because they weren't offending your sensibilities even subconsciously. It's SUPER selfish, but not imposing though. You aren't telling people to change themselves, you're changing your own perception. I re-iterate: Nobody would know unless you said something.

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If such a thing existed, I would not think it was okay. One person's "pleasing" might be my "you're seeing me wearing what?"

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The only 'dress code' this game should have is a mixture of job restrictions (which people already want gone for glamour!)

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For most people, that's because a lot of the gear is more generic than the strict job restrictions allow for - though I assume the system design means that unlocking glamours would be "all or nothing" and the job gear can't be kept out of it.

The work-around should be to release a lot more "glamour versions" of items that could work for a lot more classes than the current rigid 'Gear of [X]ing' setup allows for. (I would love the Lv68 Gazelleskin Coat as 'travelling gear' for my summoner but it's locked to healers and... tanks. What.)

Even if they did fully unlock glamour restrictions, I suspect that very few people would actually want to use distinct job gear on a different job, except maybe minor things like boots or headgear.

It doesn't help that NPCs are apparently free to ignore all job restrictions and equip whatever gear looks good on them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Even if they did fully unlock glamour restrictions, I suspect that very few people would actually want to use distinct job gear on a different job, except maybe minor things like boots or headgear.

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I donno, I like the idea of seeing a WHM with a battleaxe. Talk about cursed imagery. (I meant more as a WAR with the WHM glamours. I feel like weapons will be the one thing they won't touch even if they do remove job restrictions on glamour)

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I have taken no offense so far and as long as you remain civil I will do my utmost to keep this on the level of discussing differing opinions on even ground.

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Of course! :) I'm actually all for this discussion because I find the culture in MMOs incredibly fascinating, so I thank you for meeting me in the middle to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I don't argue that people can dress wildly. Do whatever you want , show as much skin or as little as you want. I argue that whether I have to see it and remain seeing it constantly shouldn't be a choice between that or not experiencing the actual game content I came for.

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It's actually interesting that you bring this up, because Reddit's having a field day with that JP thread as well and there was one particular comment that I felt resonated with me. Now I'm only going to quote what I agree from that comment because it gets pretty accusatory and assumes that the Japanese thread is stemmed from the bunny outfit (and all the issues that have also been addressed in this thread). I want to give the Japanese OP the benefit of the doubt here and assume it's truly because of their sense of immersion and nothing else. So what I omit from the quote is what I disagree with.

This was the part that caught my attention:

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IMO, you should have to go to extraordinary measures (i.e. graphical mods) to avoid the people that are your definition of "undesirables". This is just like you would have to go to extraordinary measures (become a shut-in or move to small town where everyone shares the same values) in order to avoid the people that are your definition of "undesirable" IRL.

The way society is structured, you don't get to just not be around someone because you don't like something about them unless you make a sacrifice, such as staying in your own home, avoiding locations they frequent, etc. It's the exact same in-game, even to the point where you can get the authorities involved to restrict that person if they are actively imposing themselves on you in a harassing or otherwise illegal way. If you want certain amenities present in society, you have to deal with people with whom you may not be comfortable. An MMO is such a thin abstraction of general society that there's little reason for that not to apply here as well. The real difference is that you aren't being forced to participate in this specific game -- you don't have the option to not participate in real life (well technically that depends on what you have the willpower to do about it), and yet somehow, most people get by IRL without needing to be babied about the different types of people that exist in the world. Those that can't deal with it are being marginalized more and more each day.

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Full comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...28&sh=4a1ff50a

Full thread here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...9f&sh=18df3aef

(Fair warning, the comment thread goes waaaaaay off course on both sides)

Yes, this is a game. And yes, we all pay our subs and have our own reasons for playing this game as we want to and how we want to. But at the end of the day MMOs are living, breathing communities made by living, breathing people. We basically have our own society here.

And I've tried to illustrate in my previous post that you can't run from people expressing themselves in this game precisely because of that. People will find a way, and as BillyKaplan mentioned it is technically censorship. People for the option just don't see it as censorship because it's censorship that benefits them. It's the same thing as wanting restrictions on gear: it's real easy to say you want strict restrictions on what characters can wear until you come across a situation where it works against you and what you want.

If that idea bothers someone, then they shouldn't be playing a multiplayer video game that offers character creation of any kind, in my opinion. Because no matter how much one may want this to be a single player experience they have total control over, they never will just by virtue of the genre this game is in.

In your original response to me you asked if I wanted to support a player who was so obsessed with expressing themselves that they wanted to force their glamour on others and not allow them the option to turn it off. I responded by essentially saying I never saw it as something that was forced to begin with.

I'd like to pose a similar question to you, if that's okay. You don't have to answer if you don't wish to.

In your first response to Iscah you said this:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

But you would never know unless someone specifically said something. Also, most games that use a "remove customization" option have a generic glamour for whatever class or job you are to make you easily identifiable. You'd just be another pair of arms and legs in a robe possibly. I may be the weird one here, but does it honestly bug you that much that someone you will never meet, and likely will never see again even in game doesn't see you wearing your shiny things?

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My question to you is this: do you want to support players treating other people as just another pair of arms and legs?

I ask because we already have enough issues in game where players treat each other as expendable NPCs: we have to play at a specific pace, we have debates over whether players should be allowed to view cutscenes, and some people can't handle what other players wear, among a myriad of other things.

People seem to be perfectly fine with players conforming to the norm when it comes to how to play mechanically, but suddenly want to be allowed to veer away from the norm stylistically when the norm no longer fits their preferred tastes/worldview/what have you. Or at least that's how it looks to me. I can't speak for anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I can leave and incur a penalty. Does that sound fair?

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Honestly? Yes, to me it does. I've done this multiple times, even as DPS (not because of glamour, but other reasons).

For example: if you don't like the way a tank is pulling in a dungeon yet you seem to be the only one in the party who feels that way, then it's on you to decide whether it's worth it to see the dungeon to the end or if you should leave and take the penalty. You can always ask to be kicked, but at the end of the day you're the one disagreeing with the party/situation. Therefore it's on you to make a decision and accept whatever comes from that decision. I personally see the glamour thing as the same way.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

If you can make these the "generic" look I'd say you'd solve most peoples problems. This is what I'm proposing, not just "turning off" glamours.

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This particular idea I'm actually not against, however for the sake of those with lower performing PCs/consoles (who I think would get the most out of such an option), we could just keep it simple and when the option is checked everyone just defaults to the starting racial gear on your screen. Way less pieces of gear for your system to remember/process, and most people would agree (I think, again, can't speak for others) that those outfits are agreeable.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's SUPER selfish, but not imposing though. You aren't telling people to change themselves, you're changing your own perception. I re-iterate: Nobody would know unless you said something.

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But is ignoring really not harmful? Let's say there was a "block all Lalafell" or "block all Roes" button. The player isn't telling you to change the race you play, they're just going to change your character to the default Midlander model of the gender you chose because they prefer that aesthetic and think Lalafells/Roes are ugly. It doesn't harm you in any way because it's not on your screen.

Except that's relatively dangerous thinking for SE to adopt. If anything it would lead to a PR disaster, despite the thought process being not that far from the whole "I want to hide glamours I find ugly."

At what point does "I want to tailor the game to my tastes" become problematic and escapist in an unhealthy way? I don't mean this as an exhasperation or how I view this particular scenario, I just mean this as a point of discussion. Because I do feel the bunny outfits fit this particular question (and I welcome anyone reading this to comment).

EDIT: need to go to sleep, so if I don't respond right away that's why.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Yes. If you go into a dungeon, those are your options, putting up with whatever you find in there or eat that penalty. Why should you not get a penalty if you left over someone's sense of fashion? Especially if you're a healer or tank? Is it fair you're bailing out on those two dps who spent 30 minutes in queue each just because one of them wore the bunny shirt?
The entire discussion about turning off glamours talks a nice high moral game but it basically boils down to a want to police people's outfits to cater to your own sensitivities.
It's called censorship, is largely considered bad, and so long as the only complaints here are a mix of "muh immersion" and feeling uncomfortable at a Roe in fishnet stockings, I certainly hope SE isn't going to cave in to this. The only 'dress code' this game
should have is a mixture of job restrictions (which people already want gone for glamour!) and ilvl for content. Anything else should really be fair game for the Warrior of Light.

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Why should the choice be Deal with what I feel to be garish choices for the entirety of what may possibly my first and only run through of content or leave and take a penalty? I'm not saying I have a moral superiority, this is ENTIRELY selfish, but you are swinging the other way implying I am morally deficient in asking for what you see to be restrictive options. I'm "policing" others. I am not. I have changed the way they dress or interact or play in no way. They can do the same things they could before I flipped that switch and if I had a way of constantly flipping that switch on and off for my entire playtime the only one who would notice would be me... possibly others as they might notice my performance in dealing with mechanics to be a little distracted but that would be the extent.

Censorship is when I say you CAN'T say/wear/do something. This is not that. I'm suggesting changing my own perception and not allowing me to do so is restrictive to my own personal freedoms. Am I not just as free to display what I would like on my own monitor? I understand you're against me telling you what you can do or say or wear. That's what free speech is about and my own country ( I will make no assumptions about where you're from) is very VERY big on that. However I personally am very big on my own agency to experience what I want and how I want especially if it affects others in no negative way. You're telling me that I HAVE to listen to what you say or look at what you wear or I should leave. I'm not embarrassed by revealing clothing nor am I shocked by counter culture sensibilities, however I do have my own preferences and don't think I need to justify them or defend them. I'm not telling you what to wear, I'm asking for a way to see what I'd like and the difference is huge. Are you angry that others can turn off bard songs? are you offended that I can turn off the effects of your spells and skills? It's mechanically the same thing. Eliminating, client side , what could be perceived as an annoyance or detriment to the players experience.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If such a thing existed, I would not think it was okay. One person's "pleasing" might be my "you're seeing me wearing what?"

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I have some terrifying revelations about imagination and hallucinations then =] While that is mostly in jest I will suggest you may be thinking far too much about what others think of you. I understand the feeling though.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

(Fair warning, the comment thread goes waaaaaay off course on both sides)

Yes, this is a game. And yes, we all pay our subs and have our own reasons for playing this game as we want to and how we want to. But at the end of the day MMOs are living, breathing communities made by living, breathing people. We basically have our own society here.

And I've tried to illustrate in my previous post that you can't run from people expressing themselves in this game precisely because of that. People will find a way, and as BillyKaplan mentioned it is technically censorship. People for the option just don't see it as censorship because it's censorship that benefits them. It's the same thing as wanting restrictions on gear: it's real easy to say you want strict restrictions on what characters can wear until you come across a situation where it works against you and what you want.

If that idea bothers someone, then they shouldn't be playing a multiplayer video game that offers character creation of any kind, in my opinion. Because no matter how much one may want this to be a single player experience they have total control over, they never will just by virtue of the genre this game is in.

In your original response to me you asked if I wanted to support a player who was so obsessed with expressing themselves that they wanted to force their glamour on others and not allow them the option to turn it off. I responded by essentially saying I never saw it as something that was forced to begin with.

I'd like to pose a similar question to you, if that's okay. You don't have to answer if you don't wish to.

In your first response to Iscah you said this:

My question to you is this: do you want to support players treating other people as just another pair of arms and legs?

I ask because we already have enough issues in game where players treat each other as expendable NPCs: we have to play at a specific pace, we have debates over whether players should be allowed to view cutscenes, and some people can't handle what other players wear, among a myriad of other things.

People seem to be perfectly fine with players conforming to the norm when it comes to how to play mechanically, but suddenly want to be allowed to veer away from the norm stylistically when the norm no longer fits their preferred tastes/worldview/what have you. Or at least that's how it looks to me. I can't speak for anyone else.

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The arms and legs thing is purely a graphical representation compromise. I understand and constantly remind myself that every single player out there (besides the bots, and even those are people sometimes) is a human being and deserves the same amount of courtesy I afford another human being in the real world. I don't want to TREAT people like things, but I don't want to see obnoxious (personally) things. I afford the same courtesy I do to a fully mogstation decked out moogle suited person as I do to someone who's in barely appropriate ilevel dungeon gear. I don't see appearance as a indicator of worth.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Honestly? Yes, to me it does. I've done this multiple times, even as DPS (not because of glamour, but other reasons).

For example: if you don't like the way a tank is pulling in a dungeon yet you seem to be the only one in the party who feels that way, then it's on you to decide whether it's worth it to see the dungeon to the end or if you should leave and take the penalty. You can always ask to be kicked, but at the end of the day you're the one disagreeing with the party/situation. Therefore it's on you to make a decision and accept whatever comes from that decision. I personally see the glamour thing as the same way.

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It's weird to me that you equate the actual gameplay affecting habit to something that affects no aspect of the actual game that matters progression or skillwise. I don't feel It's equitable to someone doing something detrimental to the purpose of the dungeon though. Me not liking to experience the story of the captive princess in an undersea palace with someone who's shiny green and rocking the moogle face isn't something anyone else would even notice. I'm not going to say anything, that's super rude. That person LOVES their glamour and they're welcome to it, but I'd like the option to fix my own experience without bothering others.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

This particular idea I'm actually not against, however for the sake of those with lower performing PCs/consoles (who I think would get the most out of such an option), we could just keep it simple and when the option is checked everyone just defaults to the starting racial gear on your screen. Way less pieces of gear for your system to remember/process, and most people would agree (I think, again, can't speak for others) that those outfits are agreeable.

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I'd be alright with that, but people might be more amicable to something that still shows progression. I'm trying to cover as many aspects as I can.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

But is ignoring really not harmful? Let's say there was a "block all Lalafell" or "block all Roes" button. The player isn't telling you to change the race you play, they're just going to change your character to the default Midlander model of the gender you chose because they prefer that aesthetic and think Lalafells/Roes are ugly. It doesn't harm you in any way because it's not on your screen.

Except that's relatively dangerous thinking for SE to adopt. If anything it would lead to a PR disaster, despite the thought process being not that far from the whole "I want to hide glamours I find ugly."

At one point does "I want to tailor the game to my tastes" become problematic and escapist in an unhealthy way? I don't mean this as an exhasperation or how I view this particular scenario, I just mean this as a point of discussion. Because I do feel the bunny outfits fit this particular question (and I welcome anyone reading this to comment).

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Playing videogames is pure escapism though for many people. I will never be a cute catgirl adventurer , or a giant robot pilot, or a agent of a specialized organization with fantastical abilities. Yet i get to experience some of what it's like to be them every time I play games. I personally feel the limits of escaping into your games should be unlimited as much as possible. What you do with your entertainment time and money should be as wondrous as possible and I see no reason to make it anything less. I see no reason why customization without affecting others perception should be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Why should the choice be Deal with what I feel to be garish choices for the entirety of what may possibly my first and only run through of content or leave and take a penalty?

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Because those are the only two options that do not, in any way, shape or form, affect other players. And how you perceive a player does affect them regardless of whether or not they know of it despite what you may pretend.

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Censorship is when I say you CAN'T say/wear/do something. This is not that.

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It actually is. It effectively is. Someone put a lot of time and effort into their glamour and they want you to see it. You are enforcing your standards on them by changing how you perceive them and pretending this doesn't affect them in the least over a bunch of semantics and technicalities that don't really matter. To use a hyperbole, imagining someone naked doesn't affect them at all, but I should hope most of us agree it's a creep move. Because it still reflects on you as a person.

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Am I not just as free to display what I would like on my own monitor?

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When it's your character and retainers. Other characters are where that freedom ends.

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I'm not telling you what to wear, I'm asking for a way to see what I'd like and the difference is huge.

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You wish to not see anything you disagree with or dislike. Take a moment to think about that and hopefully see why people would be against that dangerous stance. As it is, I'm done with this debate and hope SE doesn't cave in to it.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Spending resources to put a requested glamour in the game spawning tons of complaints that they didn't add a different glamour to the game hardly seems worth the effort and mostly just makes the community look ridiculous. Can't be happy that someone else got something they requested that doesn't negatively impact anyone who doesn't want it in any way?

Oy.

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I think the problem still is that this took 2 years. If they had released the set (or unlocked the already existing one) after a couple of months (maybe one or two patches later) as the same one as the women then I believe that less people would have a problem with it. But people waited for years and some answers made it kinda look like that it would be different (which at least would explain some of the time that it took). Taking two years to put the same model on male bodies just feel like they did not want to do that but gave up because people still asked for it in SB. If you do what parts of the community wants then do it fast and not take years and maybe just be forward with what you are doing. If they had said that this would look exactly the same as the female one (including the breast part of the top..) then people would have known 100% what will happen.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because those are the only two options that do not, in any way, shape or form, affect other players. And how you perceive a player does affect them regardless of whether or not they know of it despite what you may pretend.

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I pretend nothing. If I can flip an option and you cannot tell without me expressly telling you that I have toggled that option what kind of detriment have I contributed to your existence or experience?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It actually is. It effectively is. Someone put a lot of time and effort into their glamour and they want you to see it. You are enforcing your standards on them by changing how you perceive them and pretending this doesn't affect them in the least over a bunch of semantics and technicalities that don't really matter. To use a hyperbole, imagining someone naked doesn't affect them at all, but I should hope most of us agree it's a creep move. Because it still reflects on you as a person.

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It's very disconcerting to me that you equate my desire not to see something on my own screen to me telling you that you cannot say/do/display something. You're telling me now I can't change my own experience because someone else might find just the idea unsettling. Is that not censorship in your eyes as well? You wish to protect your own expression but not my experience with my own technology , time, and funds. Consider that how I see your position.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

When it's your character and retainers. Other characters are where that freedom ends.

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Why are you the arbiter of where my customization options end? You are another player and another customer. Your opinion is that you'd like me not to be able change how you appear on my screen. I play many games where I am allowed to provide my own graphics and mods to how other players look as well as textures and icons, this is engaging and welcoming to me. I'd like to see it in every game I play. Just as I've seen you support customization options for your characters, I support customization of my game.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You wish to not see anything you disagree with or dislike. Take a moment to think about that and hopefully see why people would be against that dangerous stance. As it is, I'm done with this debate and hope SE doesn't cave in to it.

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If you take nearly anything to extremes it sounds bad. I'm not a nazi or purist. I'm not censoring or prohibiting anything for the playerbase. In fact I'm encouraging an environment where each player has agency over what they would like to see and what they do not but only as far as their personal experience goes. I also support blacklisting hiding all interactions with another character. Graphical and text. If I don't want you to be a part of my world (I understand it's not actually my world but as the WOL I am the main character anytime I play) anymore I think removing you from my experience is not unwarranted or extreme. For the most part though even if I had this option I'd have it "off" most of the time. People are wonderfully creative in FFXIV and barring that from my experience all the time would be a detriment to my own enjoyment of what an MMORPG has to offer. However sometimes it gets exceedingly difficult to get into this story when someone with an avatar that seems obnoxiously dressed to me gets shoehorned into my view.

It's not a debate. It's a discussion but if you don't wish to reply to me anymore I cannot make you. I don't understand your view though. It's very rigid and restrictive in and of itself as I can perceive it.

If this japanese OP from that thread is all about immersion then how does he handle all those strange mounts? What about all the strange NPCs that often go around in that glamour too? What is with the events that normaly should not be a part of FF14? And the biggest question: What is with all the other WoL running around even though you as the player should be the only one? (And there are enough places where it makes no sense to have them with you)

I can understand that some glamour is just a bit too much but you will have that in real life too. In the end how should SE do it? Just take off the glamour that people are wearing if you use that button? But what if the gear under that is even worse looking? What if people just wear the glamour as gear when they go around? Or will it go so far to put everyone into certain gear sets if you click on the option? Shouldnt that break immersion too? (Since some of those gear things are kinda rare)