SAM out classing all other DPS

Yeah, world fastest speed runs, there mnk would have trouble getting in, in 3.4/3.5-ish, didn't deny that.., but mnks still gut spots in other (fast) farming pfs. Casters had bigger trouble getting in.

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

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That would doesn't anything, because the Slashing Debuff is a Sen that we used earlier then the Debuff falls off

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Yeah, world fastest speed runs, there mnk would have trouble getting in, in 3.4/3.5-ish, didn't deny that.., but mnks still gut spots in other (fast) farming pfs. Casters had bigger trouble getting in.

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

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The slashing debuff is irrelevant as well since statics will probably bring a NIN as well for trick attack. Exclusive utility is what matters, and SAM brings none. Unless for some reason the optimal party composition will not include a NIN, but I highly doubt that.
The slashing debuff rotation is fine, it will never fall off if the SAM knows what he's doing.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

The slashing debuff is irrelevant as well since statics will probably bring a NIN as well for trick attack. Exclusive utility is what matters, and SAM brings none. Unless for some reason the optimal party composition will not include a NIN, but I highly doubt that.
The slashing debuff rotation is fine, it will never fall off if the SAM knows what he's doing.

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This is bad logic. If NIN is automatically included in every party than there is another imbalance that needs to be adjusted. No single class should have a guaranteed spot.

Extending it was just an idea, could turn it into a aoe slashing debuff, making Sam special.. but lower it's overall personal aoe damage (besides nerfing the Sam in general). There are surly some possibilities for Sam, so it won't lose the meta spot, it wants to hold on, if getting nerfed a bit.

Imo there shouldn be no meta, but that's probably unrealistic too. Just the gap/OP is not good, same for balances or other criterias we seen on the past.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

DRK was a good tank at release but Machinist and AST were in bad shape. Now SAM and RDM are outperforming more complex classes to play with no real reason for it (RDM also has good raid utility).

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Please explain? Having played Drg, Nin, Mnk (During ARR) at endgame I find none of these classes harder than the next, just different.

Are any of you really looking at how inflated these parses are? These people literally do run after run, using damage buffs on one individual until the get a good parse number for a fight, then they do it for the next person. This is why I grew to hate Fflogs, making the 95% percentile look like some kind of verbatim dps number that people should be hitting with their classes but are these stupid, overinflated, ridiculous numbers that take more luck and group coordination to pull off than their own personal skill.

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Originally Posted by Barghest1210

yeeeeah I call bullshit, you cant even compare samurai to the kinda shit I gotta go through as a mnk main. Tell me when do you have to sacrifice DPs in order to prime or use your hardest hitting moves?

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Every single time I use kenki, I have to make a decision, there is a lot of FORWARD planning with samurai. When are you sacrificing DPS? Are you throwing away your GL stacks early?

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When can circumstance cause you to lose Sen or Kenkei whether because of poor luck with telegraphs or and ill timed boss jump?

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Easy, when I have 3 Sen, 40 kenki and spend 20 on kaiten for a buffed Midare and boss goes invincible the momeent that my attack goes off. 1080 potency lost in less than 2 seconds. I don't get that back, sure I can meditate/Meikyo but I don't get those Sen back that took me 21 seconds to obtain.

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And dont get me wrong I love my class, useless moves and all I play for the gameplay not because Im broken. With that love comes a certain loyalty to the brand which is what makes the whole situation bother me when I get to watch a class far exceed my DPS with an utter lack of the same kinda effort I must put into mine. Its like the rest of us are fighting with crossbows and sam has an assault rifle with a grenade launcher attachment "But its hard to decide when I should fire the grenade"

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Over exaggeration, really. People in general seem upset that their personal dps can't match a Sam of the Sam skill, which is okay. If you could, why is the Sam there? I didn't find Drg, Mnk(when I played it) or Nin hard. I've been a melee dps main since ARR launch. I don't particularly find Sam hard, It's just different.

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Originally Posted by Barghest1210

yeeeeah I call bullshit, you cant even compare samurai to the kinda shit I gotta go through as a mnk main. Tell me when do you have to sacrifice DPs in order to prime or use your hardest hitting moves? When can circumstance cause you to lose Sen or Kenkei whether because of poor luck with telegraphs or and ill timed boss jump? And dont get me wrong I love my class, useless moves and all I play for the gameplay not because Im broken. With that love comes a certain loyalty to the brand which is what makes the whole situation bother me when I get to watch a class far exceed my DPS with an utter lack of the same kinda effort I must put into mine. Its like the rest of us are fighting with crossbows and sam has an assault rifle with a grenade launcher attachment "But its hard to decide when I should fire the grenade"

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There's different types of difficulty, and dismissing another Job's complexities and not certain aspects of your own is pretty unfair. Writing this, I realized that SAM's difficulty can be summed up by simply saying there's a lot of damage available to the Job, but it's extremely easy to leave on the table. It's not entirely difficult to maximize, but there's a lot of it to be done, and doing things incorrectly means you're either pushing your big hits further back, or you're flat out leaving potency sitting. So yes, deciding how to deal the high damage is crucial. And to criticize other things you said?

GL is a passive buff that's given by doing combo finishers, even if you're doing the incorrect combo or rotation. BoTD at this point is pretty much the same, and some DRG consider it braindead until you hit LoTD, because all it calls for is hitting buttons in a sequence. Same with BLM, because you can't even really lose Enochian unless you want to (transposition actually helps). GL is shorter, but it's been made easier with Form Shift, Shoulder Tackle for quickly getting back to the boss after mechanics, the buff application change in 3.xx, the extended timer (almost certainly required for Riddle of Fire), and Riddle of Earth. At this point, MNK has the tools for the majority of scenarios where they'd lose GL, and all it comes down to is, "Hit these buttons- Keep GL".

SAM doesn't have an upkeep mechanic, so that's a fair judgement, and in that sense alone, GL remains a (very) slight step above SAM in difficulty. However, as all Sen are tied to combos, the difficulty becomes not overlapping/stacking a Sen you already have. This concept is functionally the same as not wanting to complete combos on WAR with maxed Wrath/Abandon stacks. So actually, Sen not dropping off is actually more of a detriment. You lose Sen/damage in a different way than losing GL. You lose damage because you need to refresh your buffs, but you also end up stacking Sen that's already active if you don't have Hagakure up. So yes, they get hurt just as badly by ill-timed mechanics.

This concept becomes even harder on boss jumps. You'll almost certainly have a surplus of Kenki, so your Job is to do your normal opener, but you have to switch around a ton of abilities based on how much Sen, AND Kenki you have. In Susano, sometimes I have max Kenki on phase change, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I phase with the damage buff up, sometimes with the speed buff. Sometimes I have 1 Sen, sometimes 2, sometimes 3. You have to think about how you want to use these to the maximum damage benefit, because it's VERY easy to WASTE damage on the Job, in these scenarios (which come up often). And whatever choice you roll with, it will change the timing of buffs, the opener, and even the following rotation in some scenarios.

The buff timers are long, but it's because you have situations in which you have to cycle two, 3-hit combos, into an Iaijutsu, into another GCD before getting back to it. That scenario comes very rarely, but it does take your timer to it's limit. Most times you're clipping them, so it doesn't matter that they have long timers and becomes a moot point. But during mechanics, they can become extremely tight, again, because of Sen not falling off, and trying to cycle through Sen in the correct way you need to based on buff priority, AND Iaijutsu priority.

I'm not sure ANY Job, even MNK, needs to sacrifice damage to prime hard hitting moves, unless you're talking about Tornado Kick. And if you ARE talking about Tornado Kick, they clearly have an intention for when that's to be used, even if the intent is lame.

You're greatly exaggerating the 'effort' comparisons. It is not the same kind of effort, nobody should argue that. But it is effort all the same. I could call BRD easy because they don't have positionals or requirements to stay in close range of the boss. It isn't a lie that they don't have positionals, but they have different things to worry about, making them difficult in their own way. Same goes for every Job, I've noticed. So yes, SAM are in fact putting in work, you're just downplaying it because it isn't the kind you do.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Are any of you really looking at how inflated these parses are? These people literally do run after run, using damage buffs on one individual until the get a good parse number for a fight, then they do it for the next person. This is why I grew to hate Fflogs, making the 95% percentile look like some kind of verbatim dps number that people should be hitting with their classes but are these stupid, overinflated, ridiculous numbers that take more luck and group coordination to pull off than their own personal skill.

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FFlogs has the "remove balance" filter now (two dps numbers for each parse now). You can sort them and get a more accurate picture (so, removing the padding).
That said, nothing changes. You see a swarm of SAM on top, the occasional MNK, then a few NIN and lastly one or another RDM.
Kinda disheartening, really...

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Extending it was just an idea, could turn it into a aoe slashing debuff, making Sam special.. but lower it's overall personal aoe damage (besides nerfing the Sam in general). There are surly some possibilities for Sam, so it won't lose the meta spot, it wants to hold on, if getting nerfed a bit.

Imo there shouldn be no meta, but that's probably unrealistic too. Just the gap/OP is not good, same for balances or other criterias we seen on the past.

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They designed it that way. They wanted SAM to be the "highest-dps-no-utility" job. They will not nerf it just to give it some kind of half-assed utility, at least during 4.x. Also, nerfing SAM personal dps would result in a #deletesam meme because, again, zero relevant exclusive utility. They probably learnt their lesson with MNK. MNK had dragon kick INT down debuff in arr and hw, but since it wasn't exclusive nobody cared and its slight advantage in personal dps wasn't enough to compensate for its lack of party synergy. That's why SAM is the way it is right now. They know very well that they need to give a zero utility job some relevant damage advantage to make the job itself desirable. Like it or not, SAM will always outdps every other job during stormblood.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

This is bad logic. If NIN is automatically included in every party than there is another imbalance that needs to be adjusted. No single class should have a guaranteed spot.

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PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

The #2 parse without balance on Susano EX is a Monk. Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

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Just like WAR and SCH and NIN had guaranteed spots in 3.0

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

FFlogs has the "remove balance" filter now (two dps numbers for each parse now). You can sort them and get a more accurate picture (so, removing the padding).
That said, nothing changes. You see a swarm of SAM on top, the occasional MNK, then a few NIN and lastly one or another RDM.
Kinda disheartening, really...

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I mean clearly more people are playing SAM and RDM so there are going to be alot more parse of them trying to hit higher numbers. Take away balance and you see most classes in the high 3k range on Lakshmi and hell the highest damage without balance on Susano is a MNK.....

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

FFlogs has the "remove balance" filter now (two dps numbers for each parse now). You can sort them and get a more accurate picture (so, removing the padding).
That said, nothing changes. You see a swarm of SAM on top, the occasional MNK, then a few NIN and lastly one or another RDM.
Kinda disheartening, really...

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Even with that said, if Sam is the highest DPS job, you should expect that Sam's are taking to top spots, if they aren't then they aren't the top personal dps job.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

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This is a game of numbers and probability.
There will always be a best comp, a best job for some scenario, a best skill, a best everything.
We cannot stop this. Nor should we try to, we should accept the game for what it is.

That said, what we should strive for is a situation where the gap is small enough so it's not this glaring.
In 3.X I played a lot of BLM and SMN. I knew BLM didn't have as much single target as MNK, but it was close enough that it didn't bother me.
I knew that BRD+MCH+NIN+DRG was better than having a caster there, but I felt good playing SMN and melting adds in A12S.

Right now though, I feel worthless playing either job. I play them because I adore them, but it nags me on the back of my mind- "these guys would be better off with a samurai/ninja/whatever...".
I just enjoy the aesthetics/feel of the caster jobs, and dislike Samurai or Ninja. But- I suspect like most people- I have this power fantasy. Everyone likes doing lots of damage, or buffing the whole party- one of the best feelings I've had in this game was negating a mechanic with a deployed Critlo. And it's hard to feel that when I know some jobs inherently do more than mine no matter what I do, in damage and utility.
Maybe I'm salty and selfish. I probably am. Maybe I shouldn't think about these things and just "enjoy the game". But I really feel like I'm a poor choice for a group, and it's hard to shake that off for me. That a player with the same skill playing those jobs brings more. I can't rationalise a reason to pick myself with this job choice over that other guy with a RDM. I even started prepping RDM to escape this feeling. I never felt like this in 3.X. I don't want anything nerfed, or the meta to change.
Just a little push so I don't feel as bad. Heck, you could give me 2 potency and I'd instantly feel better, going "aaay, at least I'm a bit stronger now".
I'm aware this probably sounds awfully petty/silly, but it really is how I see it :/

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff.

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Let's see... slashing debuff vs slashing +TA... nah, if all SAM had was the slashing debuff, then they'd be benched faster than 2.0 WAR. Slashing would only qualify as utility if the other jobs that can put theirs up lose something in exchange, like 3.X WAR vs NIN. NOW, in all three classes that have it, their required to put it up for their own personal dps(Sen, Storm's and DoTs respectively). Compound this with the fact that any good SAM won't put the slashing debuff up till nearly the 10th GCD and... yeah. SAM needs to have a high personal dps to balance out vs NIN's TA. Sorry, Trick is the counter to any equally good SAM.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

This is a game of numbers and probability

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I don't disagree, mind you. But I strongly believe that the dev team should make different jobs shine based on the different encounters. For instance, design a savage turn so that blm isn't forced to move too much and/or magic damage is needed to deal with some mechanic. Design the next turn including something akin to the tether in T8 that can be easily managed by brd/mch thanks to their mobility and constant uptime and so on and so forth. The main problem with creator savage was, in my opinion, a very poor and lazy encounter design. This is why mch/brd/nin/drg was the optimal composition, no other reason really.

Well with all the crying I can see SAM being the new 3.0 MNK, being useless and over looked for every kind of raid....this will make this class go to the bottom of the list because all it literally brings is dps which isn't astronomically high like some of you exaggerate...

Like I mentioned before MNKs and NINs have no issue keeping up with a SAM and BLM/RDM has absolutely out dps'ed SAMs plenty of times....I just don't understand this argument I always see the numbers and guess who always beats me a BLM and occasionally a MNK

And yes some of the other classes need a buff some of them are just not up to par currently

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Well with all the crying I can see SAM being the new 3.0 MNK, being useless and over looked for every kind of raid....this will make this class go to the bottom of the list because all it literally brings is dps which isn't astronomically high like some of you exaggerate...

Like I mentioned before MNKs and NINs have no issue keeping up with a SAM and BLM/RDM has absolutely out dps'ed SAMs plenty of times....I just don't understand this argument I always see the numbers and guess who always beats me a BLM and occasionally a MNK

And yes some of the other classes need a buff some of them are just not up to par currently

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People will just say you need to git gud and SAM is a ez class

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Well with all the crying I can see SAM being the new 3.0 MNK, being useless and over looked for every kind of raid....this will make this class go to the bottom of the list because all it literally brings is dps which isn't astronomically high like some of you exaggerate...

Like I mentioned before MNKs and NINs have no issue keeping up with a SAM and BLM/RDM has absolutely out dps'ed SAMs plenty of times....I just don't understand this argument I always see the numbers and guess who always beats me a BLM and occasionally a MNK

And yes some of the other classes need a buff some of them are just not up to par currently

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It would be great if I could see a post criticizing criticism of SAM that isn't from a 70 SAM whining about how their class is going to be nerfed to the ground, followed by some random anecdote of "but SAM doesn't really outdamage that much and I get beaten sometimes," and it's like yes, every gets their DPS beaten. That's what happens when you run into players that are better than you. Please stop stating the obvious. It has nothing to do with class balance. If someone plays a top tier character in a fighting game and loses a lot and/or loses period, it does not magically change that character's tier.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

It would be great if I could see a post criticizing criticism of SAM that isn't from a 70 SAM whining about how their class is going to be nerfed to the ground, followed by some random anecdote of "but SAM doesn't really outdamage that much and I get beaten sometimes," and it's like yes, every gets their DPS beaten. That's what happens when you run into players that are better than you. Please stop stating the obvious. It has nothing to do with class balance. If someone plays a top tier character in a fighting game and loses a lot and/or loses period, it does not magically change that character's tier.

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The current #2 dps in Susano is a monk. Without Balance padding.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The current #2 dps in Susano is a monk. Without Balance padding.

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Already looked at the list. There's nearly 30 SAM for every 3 MNK. I just said that skill level does not determine balance. That monk is clearly above and beyond the average one. Balance has to address all forms of skill levels, not just the highest.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Already looked at the list. There's nearly 30 SAM for every 3 MNK. I just said that skill level does not determine balance. That monk is clearly above and beyond the average one. Balance has to address all forms of skill levels, not just the highest.

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Or since theres a high population of samurai right now, and not many monks, the numbers are skewed. But lets continue with hating on SAM for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Or since theres a high population of samurai right now, and not many monks, the numbers are skewed. But lets continue with hating on SAM for no reason.

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Just on the top 100 list there's 82 SAM for the non-18 SAM on the list alone.

This includes all classes, not just Monk. In fact, there are NINE Monks for non-balance parsing. The highest of all the non-SAM classes there. There's only even two red mages there, so you can't even use the "the class is new so it's super popular" excuse.

Do not go down this rabbit hole.

I am not hating SAM for "no reason," I am being critical. There has never been such a lopsided class bias in rankings, whether it be top 100 or top 500.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Just on the top 100 list there's 82 SAM for the non-18 SAM on the list alone.

This includes all classes, not just Monk. In fact, there are NINE Monks for non-balance parsing. The highest of all the non-SAM classes there. There's only even two red mages there, so you can't even use the "the class is new so it's super popular" excuse.

Do not go down this rabbit hole.

I am not hating SAM for "no reason," I am being critical. There has never been such a lopsided class bias in rankings, whether it be top 100 or top 500.

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He literally just told you alot of people are playing SAM atm and then you restate that the top 100 has alot of SAM's..... come on man. Its hard to use top 100 as a base when alot of folk are trying out SAM atm.....

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

He literally just told you alot of people are playing SAM atm and then you restate that the top 100 has alot of SAM's..... come on man. Its hard to use top 100 as a base when alot of folk are trying out SAM atm.....

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I also just told him a lot of people are playing Red Mages, but there is only two on the entire list. Anyone can say there is a lot of anything. Both classes are new, but I don't see nearly as many RDM as SAM no matter where I look at the list.

Or are you implying there's double digit amounts of SAM for every one RDM?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

There has never been such a lopsided class bias in rankings, whether it be top 100 or top 500.

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A sword using dps class was a hugely popular request and demand made by the community across all forms of medium, a request one would be hard pressed by a red mage that has a melee burst phase maybe once every 2 minutes for five seconds. I'm not surprised in the least that Samurai is a popular job to test due to being the only actual sword job.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Or are you implying there's double digit amounts of SAM for every one RDM?

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TBH, this is an even bigger problem, just due to the objective fact RDM has the lowest skill ceiling of all the casters with ridiculously good utility in Embolden.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Or since theres a high population of samurai right now, and not many monks, the numbers are skewed. But lets continue with hating on SAM for no reason.

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This pretty much ended her argument right here there are way more SAMs then anything else besides RDM so the data is a bit biased currently....

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A
TBH, this is an even bigger problem, just due to the objective fact RDM has the lowest skill ceiling of all the casters with ridiculously good utility in Embolden.

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And instaraise multiple times...and the fact that it's probably the least punishing job if you mess up. Plus, very easy resource management and no buildup time necessary, whereas SAM, for instance, needs a minimum of 5 GCDs to apply the jinpu and shifu buffs up to 7 GCDs if no other party member can apply the slashing damage up debuff, which is a big deal actually. This just proves that many people simply want their job to be in the top fflogs rankings without considering what each job brings to the party, be it personal dps or utility/synergy.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This pretty much ended her argument right here there are way more SAMs then anything else besides RDM so the data is a bit biased currently....

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There is no bias in data.

If your argument is just that the class is so overwhelmingly popular that it eclipses even Red Mage, and that it just happens that all these super skilled players are all playing SAM simultaneously, that still sets off alarms.

In any other game, if all the top players or even most of the top players are always using the same character or one character in their team, party or whatever, that character is eventually recognized as imbalanced. Overwatch had the same problem. Mccree had an over 100% use rate at one point in competitive because people would rock two of them in one team. When there's such an imbalance of pick numbers, or in FFXIV's case, parses and/or parties that include SAM vs ones that don't, there's a massive red flag. Popularity does not dictate balance, but to imply that because something is popular you cannot determine it's balance is short sighted.

@Lastelli
I don't care if my job is in the top FFlogs parsing. I really don't. If I cared so badly I'd just play Samurai. I like Samurai. It's a fun class. I'm just being critical of it. Red Mage is too strong, it can raise better than healers, manage mechanics better than BLM, and has more reliable damage than SMN since SMN's damage is purely reliant on burst periods. I must be crazy though, actually criticizing that my class is too good. God forbid.

Edit: Also "no build up time necessary" guess that black/white mana bar is just there for show and does nothing for RDM.

Isn't it more, other jobs are just not tuned well enough? Why do we have to say SAM is OP, when its more likely that its actually tuned well, and the other jobs are not tuned well enough. Nerfs are horrible, lets not promote them

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Isn't it more, other jobs are just not tuned well enough? Why do we have to say SAM is OP, when its more likely that its actually tuned well, and the other jobs are not tuned well enough. Nerfs are horrible, lets not promote them

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I've said twice in this thread that I'd rather the other classes be buffed instead of SAM being nerfed. I'm not here to put SAM players down nor am I here to say "nerf the class into the ground SE my class isn't as good!" I have never once said "I want SAM to be nerfed."

I don't trust SE to properly buff the other classes, and we've seen with WAR and SCH that they just love to nerf stuff that was or is considered too strong. I am just realistically preparing myself for the fact that SE might take the easy way out, nerfing, instead of putting serious effort and thought into it all, and buffing the other classes.

Trust me you wouldn't hear a complaint out of me if I heard DRG or MCH was getting a proper buff or that MNK's brotherhood wasn't so meaningless when compared to Embolden or Trick Attack, I'd simply nod and wait to see out the differences.

I'm pretty sure I'm done posting here, since I'm just posting in circles at this point. Not to mention, everyone is convinced I have some personal grudge against them or their class. Or that I want my class or a certain one to be the best. I don't. I'm just very passionate about the DPS classes in this game. I would just rather not the game become "SAM+NIN and some random guys we picked up along the way" for DPS. That's it. I got tired of the holy trifecta of DRG+MCH+NIN as it was in 3.0. I was the DRG in my party for that garbage too.

Mana accumulation is not buildup time by any logic, unless you're implying that RDM rotation is based only on the 5 seconds melee combo. And it was you who wrote that "I also just told him a lot of people are playing Red Mages, but there is only two on the entire list."
So you were clearly implying that there should be more RDMs on that list because it is popular, ignoring what RDM brings to the party. And again, I said this before, but looking at the player damage rankings is really a bad choice. What you should be looking at is the static speed ranking and analyze how SAM performs in those parties compared to other party members since we can reasonable assume a similar skill level among players in that data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Isn't it more, other jobs are just not tuned well enough? Why do we have to say SAM is OP, when its more likely that its actually tuned well, and the other jobs are not tuned well enough. Nerfs are horrible, lets not promote them

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Because what matters is relative performace. Buff MNK damage by 5% and SAM suddenly becomes useless and we will have a MNK/NIN meta. Buff DRG dps by 5-10% and we will have a DRG/NIN meta...again.

So you are basically just setting yourself up for disappointment, and then also pushing that self generated sadness on everyone else, because you don't trust SE? I don't understand why you don't just, like, let it go?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So you are basically just setting yourself up for disappointment, and then also pushing that self generated sadness on everyone else, because you don't trust SE? I don't understand why you don't just, like, let it go?

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I'm not pushing "self generated sadness" on anyone. I am simply being critical. I am critical of Red Mage. I am critical of Samurai. I was critical of Warrior. I was critical of Scholar. I was critical of the DRG/NIN/MCH meta. I am critical of NIN to this day. I'm not setting myself up for disappointment, because at the end of the day I will play the class I want. If I like Samurai the most of the DPS. I will play that. Playing Samurai will not change my stance on it, however. Whether or not they nerf, buff or ignore SAM is not up to me nor will it ultimately influence how I play. I will still play how I want. I just like encouraging discussion about classes and/or their place in balance, or how well they work in comps etc.

Again, you assume I have some personal stake, or that most posts are generated by negative emotion over than enthusiasm and enjoyment. I enjoy DPS, I enjoy this game, I enjoy playing DPS, so I am passionate about it. But I would never take out my anger, frustration, sadness or stress out on the forums against other people. That's just lashing out and no one deserves to be treated like that. I just follow the belief that if something can't be criticized it's perfect, and nothing is perfect because if it is that means there's nothing to strive for.

Regardless, this topic is not about me, it's about whether or not SAM is "OP." So let's please drop it here.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Or since theres a high population of samurai right now, and not many monks, the numbers are skewed. But lets continue with hating on SAM for no reason.

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This is a good point, and you can technically see how many parses for each job are available for the last two weeks, actually, to see if the data we're working with reflect that skewness.
You have 25k SAM and RDM players, then an interesting 21K BRDs (guess the removal of WM was quite popular), then DRG and NIN at around 14k and the rest under 10k.
So this is a good point.
Conversely, it also makes you raise your eyebrows if a lot of people flock to a new job and are already quite capable of putting the others behind with such a gap (mind you, most people who stuck with the other jobs were probably mains already and had less to learn/adjust to).

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I'm not pushing "self generated sadness" on anyone. I am simply being critical. I am critical of Red Mage. I am critical of Samurai. I was critical of Warrior. I was critical of Scholar. I was critical of the DRG/NIN/MCH meta.

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Being critical is good, when necessary. People over-exaggerate with threads and opinions though, and that's almost precisely why Jobs get over-buffed, which is what you apparently despise. Because people over-exaggerate, and x buff isn't enough. They tried being patient with AST buffs in 3.xx. They didn't become broken overnight. It's just that no buff was enough, even though they did it on like 2 or 3 separate occasions BEFORE the balance got crazy. It never ends, and it just results in a vicious cycle in which each Job gets 'chosen' to be meta every expansion, while others are left behind.

And I get why people criticize too. I was a DRG in 2.0 when I was an actual detriment to teams, what with barely living through magical defense hits. It sucks when people look at you, fully justified, like you're a liability. But then because of that, DRG became better. Now DRG is worse. Now there's a case to make DRG far better. Then NIN or SAM will be worse. Then again, and over and over. And a lot of the time, because people aren't fine just being satisfactory, even though 'satisfactory' in this game is way better than other MMO's.

Balance cannot be attained without a sacrifice- usually fun factors, or unique characteristics, and people complain just as much about losing that. We should all wait until Omega, but I doubt any current Job is going to make things much harder by being 10-15% behind a SAM, when you factor in their own utility to the party.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

snip

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That isn't the whole story, and I'm not letting SE off the hook here.
When AST came out, people said it wasn't strong enough and needed a lot of work in some areas (same for MCH, and there was the BRD thing with WM not being worth jack at first, though I don't remember this so well, so grain of salt with this one).
Instead, they pulled out the old "y'all don't know what you're doing, we tried it here and it's just right".
So they leave and underpowered class to rot for a patch and a half while ignoring criticisms of it- thus letting the public perception of "AST is garbage" set almost permanently.
Then, months later, they tune it better and scramble to repair the damage that's been done- but it's already in the collective memory that "AST is worthless". So the only way to show it otherwise is to overbuff it.
Even then, did anyone really think AST was weak in 3.4/3.5? Pretty sure the general perception became that it was getting centralizing (especially when you account for Balance rng).

If the balance team acted faster, many of these situations could be averted. Which would be nice, since they tend to have a lasting impact.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

In any other game, if all the top players or even most of the top players are always using the same character or one character in their team, party or whatever, that character is eventually recognized as imbalanced. Overwatch had the same problem. Mccree had an over 100% use rate at one point.

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Hi. I'm Ninja. I've been a requirement in every static since my inception due to my decent personal dps, forgiving rotation, and TA, which is the single most reliable dps raid buff that any job in game can boast, with dependable gains and an absolutely massive effect to everyone in my team. Don't worry, I'm still a mandatory requirement for every serious static, regardless of what anyone else thinks, regardless of damage type.

Seriously. Ninja is the only job that's been used 100% since release in 2.4, with every other job falling in and out of the meta. Remind me again why SAM doing good damage is a problem?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Hi. I'm Ninja. I've been a requirement in every static since my inception due to my decent personal dps, forgiving rotation, and TA, which is the single most reliable dps raid buff that any job in game can boast, with dependable gains and an absolutely massive effect to everyone in my team. Don't worry, I'm still a mandatory requirement for every serious static, regardless of what anyone else thinks, regardless of damage type.

Seriously. Ninja is the only job that's been used 100% since release in 2.4, with every other job falling in and out of the meta. Remind me again why SAM doing good damage is a problem?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I am critical of Red Mage. I am critical of Samurai. I was critical of Warrior. I was critical of Scholar. I was critical of the DRG/NIN/MCH meta. I am critical of NIN to this day.

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Please learn to read.

I am not going to go on a rant or talk about Ninja in a Samurai centered thread.