Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

I think the fundamental problem with Dragoon is basing its eye procs solely around its Jumps. Both are on too long a cooldown for Nastrond to the core mechanic. This problem doesn't exist in PvP where your Jumps are on an extremely short cooldown and simply take TP. So a possible solution might be allowing us to generate an eye per completion of our five GCD combo. As for low damage, my additional changes would be:

Blood of the Dragoon
*If used during Life of the Dragoon, will immediately refresh it for 20s*

This allows us to potentially save LotD during a phase transition. I also find it rather cumbersome BotD no longer does anything if you maintain proper uptime.

Geirskogul
Potency increased to 250; recast time reduced to 25s

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Originally Posted by AzureKoi

If stuff like this is already happening, then there is already toxicity being created in the community as a result of DRG's current state. Whether or not it's subjective, people are already seeing DRG as undesirable, time will tell if this will spill over to DRG being barred from entering meta compositions or savage parties in general. Didn't realize the situation had become so dire.

I have faith though, even if it's hard. I rode with DRG through all the BS from 2.x til now. I will say the current SB DRG is probably the worst DRG has been (worse than Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust requiring a positional to function back in 2.x) but we just gotta ride this one out too.

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Granted being excluded from a hunt party is a special kind of stupid, but that being said I am seeing an increasing amount of PF groups for ex primals exluding DRG from their required dps slots. It's definitely a bad situation and I agree that given the state of a lot of the other jobs in comparison, this is probably the worst things have ever been for the class.

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Originally Posted by Riotpersona

I am seeing an increasing amount of PF groups for ex primals exluding DRG from their required dps slots.

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I can sorta understand this. Lakshmi we do horrible on. The amount of times she turns for abilities, the times she runs to center, getting the + ability cast on you so you can't move to postinal, the confuse aoe. It destroys our DPS. Being beaten by the BRD is a nose breaker. We're much more competitve on Susano thankfully but that still has it's problems.

Really horrible rotation design that requires you on the boss 24/7 does not work with giving bosses actual mechanics.

Hmm something that's also slightly annoying me about DRG is how BoTD pretty much becomes "useless" once you're into you use it once.
It could have an added effect to fix one of Dragoon's current problems.

Maybe make it give us an eye when we already have BoTD up. Would fix the long buildup for a mediocre reward. Would make losing BoTD during downtime less problematic coz it's easier to get them back & would make it more of a useful skill once we already have it up.

I hadn't seen this thread yet when I typed up my critique of Dragoon here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...%28Feedback%29
I don't know if it's possible to refit my post into a reply to this thread, so I'll leave up my post and link it here. If anybody knows how to add my post in a reply here, let me know and I'll delete my thread.

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Originally Posted by IchiExorz

Hmm something that's also slightly annoying me about DRG is how BoTD pretty much becomes "useless" once you're into you use it once.
It could have an added effect to fix one of Dragoon's current problems.

Maybe make it give us an eye when we already have BoTD up. Would fix the long buildup for a mediocre reward. Would make losing BoTD during downtime less problematic coz it's easier to get them back & would make it more of a useful skill once we already have it up.

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I suggested this as well to get past the absurd wind up time for LotD while giving our skill a use for min maxing and rotational optimization

I also feels like LoTD should interact with our old skills a bit more. Because honestly, all it does is buff our Geirskogul.

In general LoTD doesn't feel rewarding or satisfying enough at all, especially considering the amount of time we spend building it up.

It needs to be changed in both making it faster to build up & making it a bit more rewarding to do so.
But not too much or DRG would get too strong.

Increasing damage of jumps by 30% in LotD would be more than enough. It would just give us back power surge essentially

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

Increasing damage of jumps by 30% in LotD would be more than enough. It would just give us back power surge essentially

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BoTD already increases jump damage. Would be a bit uninteresting to have the 2 do the same.

Maybe entering LoTD should reset Jump & Spineshatter Dive cooldowns.
That way we can get 2/3 eyes by the time LoTD ends.

That together with making us able to refresh BoTD while out of combat would allow us to keep up LoTD about half of the time and LoTD would be a better more potent burst window.

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

Increasing damage of jumps by 30% in LotD would be more than enough. It would just give us back power surge essentially

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You have powersurge in the form of jumps being buffed and spineshatter being buffed. And an extra almost 100% damage with mirage dive.
But yeah, LotD giving more jump damage? Yes please. And if it changes the animation to be more edgy and powerful looking all the better. Or LotD could reset DfD cd, and increase its damage by 30% and make it a 25s cd, so you'd use Dragonfire dive 2 times within LotD for a whooping-not whooping 390 potency each.

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Originally Posted by Haaki

This would be my proposed changes:
- Disembowel back to 10%
- Keep the eyes if BOTD falls (polyglot stack from BLM, anyone?)
- Dragon fire dive gives dive ready
- Dragon Sight same cooldown as B4B
- Battle Litany 120s from 180s. Really, every other major buff is on a much lower cool down than this. There's no justification.

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I think this pretty much fixes the job! I would increase range slightly on Dragon Sight to 10y but other than that, this is spot on!

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Originally Posted by Haaki

This would be my proposed changes:
- Disembowel back to 10%
- Keep the eyes if BOTD falls (polyglot stack from BLM, anyone?)
- Dragon fire dive gives dive ready
- Dragon Sight same cooldown as B4B
- Battle Litany 120s from 180s. Really, every other major buff is on a much lower cool down than this. There's no justification.

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I'll third this and would like to add that they better distribute the stats on our gear. We don't want skill speed, they gave it to us on almost every piece.

I would say also add that Dragon Sight should not be tethered, just let us cast it on whomever. But, it was probably designed with the limitation of it being used on MELEE, not magic DPS, though they can simply make it castable on anyone, just change the effect to PHYSICAL damage+5/10% then.


Also QoL:

-Shorten Mirage Dive's animation lock so we can weave it.
-Unlock Jump's animation lock as soon as contact is made so we can maneuver out of range of potentially damaging mechanics.
-Shorten GK's recast from 35 seconds to 20 seconds so it's easier to plan ahead with using it for damage and for activating LotD. To compensate, reduce its damage to 180 potency (we can use 30% more often so it's ok)

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I would say also add that Dragon Sight should not be tethered, just let us cast it on whomever. But, it was probably designed with the limitation of it being used on MELEE, not magic DPS, though they can simply make it castable on anyone, just change the effect to PHYSICAL damage+5/10% then.


Also QoL:

-Shorten Mirage Dive's animation lock so we can weave it.
-Unlock Jump's animation lock as soon as contact is made so we can maneuver out of range of potentially damaging mechanics.
-Shorten GK's recast from 35 seconds to 20 seconds so it's easier to plan ahead with using it for damage and for activating LotD. To compensate, reduce its damage to 180 potency (we can use 30% more often so it's ok)

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they said in the 4.0 notes that they reduced the lock on Jump but it did not seem once bit different.

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Originally Posted by Khel

they said in the 4.0 notes that they reduced the lock on Jump but it did not seem once bit different.

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They reduced the animation lock but not the movement lock, and it's very noticable. Before, if I jumped late in my GCD, my GCD would be clipped pretty late, but now I can start another GCD action much earlier in Jump's animation. I can't really move earlier, but it also doesn't clip deep into my next weapon skill like it used to.

As a DRG from the start of 2.0 even through the MDef issues, I'm extremely disappointed in current DRG's implementation and I feel forced into playing one of the other melee to even be useful. I love the idea of Life of the Dragon but it is implemented poorly which is making DRG feel very clunky not to mention the nerfs to DRG utility.

DRG fixes:
- Eyes need to be generated by Wheeling Thrust & Fang and Claw when they are executed as the 5th combo from the correct position. This would largely fix most issues with long build up of Life of the Dragon
- Battle Litany needs to be 120 seconds
- Disembowel needs to be raised back to 10% piercing

Since we are unlikely to see massive changes like tying eye generation to Fang and Wheeling, I've been toying with whether shortening our jump CDs might be enough to make up the difference even if it's more of an... eh solution.

- Jump reduced from 30s to 20s
- Dragonfive Dive reduced from 120s to 90s; Grants Dive Ready
- Spineshatter Dive reduced from 60s to 45s

As mentioned earlier, I also want to see Geirskogul CD reduced. It just feels like I barely touch it anymore. Bringing Battle Litany to 120s would be a huge boon to our utility though and I absolutely support that change.

What do you guys think about removing BOTD completely?

1. Remove the BOTD mechanic and the resulting button to activate it
2. Rework Geirskogul to just be an attack without BOTD and 4th combo actions not affect BOTD
3. LOTD will be the only timed buff which always start at 30 seconds once we get 4 eye stacks
4. Allow us to get eye stacks even during LOTD

This removes the issue of losing eye stacks when BOTD dies, we can get maximum uptime for nastrond once activated and finally we won't need to hold our jumps within LOTD window for fear of losing eye stacks.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

What do you guys think about removing BOTD completely?

1. Remove the BOTD mechanic and the resulting button to activate it
2. Rework Geirskogul to just be an attack without BOTD and 4th combo actions not affect BOTD
3. LOTD will be the only timed buff which always start at 30 seconds once we get 4 eye stacks
4. Allow us to get eye stacks even during LOTD

This removes the issue of losing eye stacks when BOTD dies, we can get maximum uptime for nastrond once activated and finally we won't need to hold our jumps within LOTD window for fear of losing eye stacks.

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You can get eyes during LotD... guys it really seems like you are just complaining for the sake of it and don't even comprehend the class. Also LotD will be always above 23s unless you are fucking up your rotation.
Try harder, plz.

Ah, but what is a difficult fight if not a creative way of disturbing the perfect rotation? ;)

That said, entering LotD with a low BotD timer will prop you up to 15 seconds as well as spit you out at 15 seconds on BotD. I may have missed if someone has conclusively determined it would be better to go LotD immediately or hold out for more, but in an emergency I'd think it obvious you should save BotD that way rather than lose it all.

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Originally Posted by Erys

You can get eyes during LotD... guys it really seems like you are just complaining for the sake of it and don't even comprehend the class. Also LotD will be always above 23s unless you are fucking up your rotation.
Try harder, plz.

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Omg, my reading comprehension fail. Time to increase my dps lol.

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Originally Posted by Erys

You can get eyes during LotD... guys it really seems like you are just complaining for the sake of it and don't even comprehend the class. Also LotD will be always above 23s unless you are fucking up your rotation.
Try harder, plz.

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Pretty sure they spoke in error, but their ideas are completely sound. SE already made BotD completely irrelevant with SB DRG.

LotD is not always at 23 seconds even if performed perfectly because fights are not in a dummy vacuum. Mechanics exist. Phase changes exist

If you think that people are just complaining for the sake of it, I'd argue you don't comprehend the class.

Try harder please.

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Originally Posted by Riotpersona

Pretty sure they spoke in error, but their ideas are completely sound. SE already made BotD completely irrelevant with SB DRG.

LotD is not always at 23 seconds even if performed perfectly because fights are not in a dummy vacuum. Mechanics exist. Phase changes exist

If you think that people are just complaining for the sake of it, I'd argue you don't comprehend the class.

Try harder please.

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Sure because their idea of disrupting the flow of the class and the line up with buffs is better than just tweaking potencies and making it actually rewarding. Another alternative would be giving Jump the Geirskogul treatment, making it High Jump under LotD and giving it a 10s cd. Or making it into Final Chorus the attack Nidhogg uses on phase transition to Estinien form, make it have a short cast bar and stupid high potency, give it the exact same animation as Final Chorus. Would fit more thematically with nastrond.
Let's have a blood for blood full of nothing, yay. Quantity over quality of Nastronds, yay. An even easier rotation, yay. Let's get called dumbrotation dps again, yay.

my biggest frustration is with fights like susano. with a good group but the time you are ready to LOTD... he transitions to sword phase. The cinematic is long enough that you can't maintain BotD and get the combo off to keep it rolling so typically you build up for the "big bursty pay off" and then boom mechanics/cinematics and you start over.

it happens in deltascape 3 as well, its just the timing of the mechanics and phase changes happen at times where there is no way to not lose the 4 stacks built up.

if that didn't happen then getting eyes during LotD would be relevant but the problem for me is that there are straight mechanics that just reset all our ramp up and there is nothing we can do about it.

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Originally Posted by YiznoBergerFett

susano again

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Either hold 2nd geirskogul if your group is not that fast or if your group is fast just refresh botd when it has one second left and blow 2 nastronds on the sword.
For V3 there's pretty much nothing you can do but blow Nastrond as early as possible.

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Originally Posted by Erys

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You might not agree, and thats fine, but the vast majority of us, feel the clunkiness of this job. Its highly penalized with sub-par dps comparitevly to the others. How is this fair? I play my job as close to optimally as I can, and I can't even get close to the other dps. So what, I bring a few buffs to the table for the others? Dragon Sight? Don't make me laugh, that isn't intresting or intuitive, thats a tether, and I have to play pad-i-cake with the other dps to make sure it doesn't break or else I lose a pretty sizable chunk of dps, since it used to be part of blood for blood. I don't want to see huge changes, but I want to see tweaks and fixes to make this job competitive. Dragoon is in a terrible spot, and once savage hits, you will notice it in full swing if nothing is done. This is going to be the paladin of heavensward, an entire xpac buffing and buffing and buffing with zero results.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

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That's why I talked about increases in potencies. Also dragoon was a high risk-high reward in heavensward. Right now is high risk-low reward, which makes zero sense.
The job flows well, what doesn't work is the moment we get to our 70 skill and it's jackshit damage.

Never said anything about Dragon Sight, I just don't mind it. If my dps partner moves away unnecessarily I just do a simple thing, tether a tank and use True North. Dragon sight for me is a non issue. But I saw an idea in this thread that I liked and upvoted, which is make dragon sight 2 tethers, blue when out of range and red when in range (with a higher buff if you are in range but not fucking you up greatly if you disengage). I would like that change but I don't find it absolutely necessary. In the end I'm just going to press Dragon Sight on cd and pray my melee partner is not dumb enough to go to cardinal positionals instead of dancing in the edge of rear/flank.
This happened already with Battle Litany, when you get a blm in your party or in general with your healers, because they go unnecessarily far to dodge stuff or stand at the edge of the arena in the pull.

The job almost plays itself, it's far from clunky except for our friend and neighbour Spid... mirage dive. Anyways if I want easy mode I'll go samurai or rdm. In the end I just love 3.x dragoon and 4.0 only heightens it, just with subpar increase in damage which is easily corrected with potency changes.

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Originally Posted by Erys

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I loved dragoon in 3.0, and what it is now is a cluster fuck of shit. Because if you want to get down to it, the job is VERY easy. Manage CD's around Nastrond and LoTD. Rotation is so simple I could teach my 7 year old. The problem lies in the clunkiness of how annoyingly difficult it is to get eyes quickly, and keep them going over long periods of downtime. I can let a 30 second timer of BoTD run down, and re-up it at 1 second, to refresh the timer, but even 45 seconds is not enough for most phase transitions. Either way, it needs more work than just potencies.. It needs some quality of life changes..

Also, Dragoon isn't a high-risk high-reward job anymore... its a melee bard, relegated to "Disembowl Bitch" and "Where's my Litanny?!"

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

1)I loved dragoon in 3.0, and what it is now is a cluster fuck of shit.
2)I can let a 30 second timer of BoTD run down, and re-up it at 1 second, to refresh the timer, but even 45 seconds is not enough for most phase transitions. Either way, it needs more work than just potencies.. It needs some quality of life changes..
3)Also, Dragoon isn't a high-risk high-reward job anymore... its a melee bard, relegated to "Disembowl Bitch" and "Where's my Litanny?!"

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1)Currently it's the same as 3.0, only difference is you can't burn Geirskoguls because "downtime is coming, better not waste BotD". So you not loving it as is now, makes 0 sense.
2)We have 3 fights with long enough downtime to make us lose BotD. Shinryuu, Lakshmi and V3. You can argue 4 if Susano loves to keep you in a gaol at the most awkward times, but that's rng. 2 out of the total 6 current endgame fights lose us BotD. They are less than half but enough to be mildly annoying, just have to live with it, we can't get every fight catered to us.
3)The risk factor is still there, we are affected the most by mechanics. And if we dance accordingly we get a low reward. Thus why I said dragoon is currently high risk-low reward unlike heavensward.

In That Other MMO there are/were plenty of mechanics similar to what the Gaze and BotD systems are supposed to accomplish, but it at least has the good graces to let you stack way past what you technically need in most of these cases (often double). It gives you flexibility on when to spend it. Contrary to what one might suspect at first glance, this sort of idea shores up skill gap somewhat (because knowledgeable but lesser skilled players can and should prioritize what's powerful instead of what's tricky), and allows peak performance players to stay closer to what they could get on a dummy, hence less fight-specific knowledge is relevant to the work of tuning.

So it's not an unsound idea on the whole, honestly. But its current implementation still runs contrary to how the rest of the game works and has worked since ARR. A "synergy" damage dealer whose own damage cannot hope to benefit from anyone else's synergy skills sounds a little off to me.

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Originally Posted by Erys

1)Currently it's the same as 3.0, only difference is you can't burn Geirskoguls because "downtime is coming, better not waste BotD". So you not loving it as is now, makes 0 sense.
2)We have 3 fights with long enough downtime to make us lose BotD. Shinryuu, Lakshmi and V3. You can argue 4 if Susano loves to keep you in a gaol at the most awkward times, but that's rng. 2 out of the total 6 current endgame fights lose us BotD. They are less than half but enough to be mildly annoying, just have to live with it, we can't get every fight catered to us.
3)The risk factor is still there, we are affected the most by mechanics. And if we dance accordingly we get a low reward. Thus why I said dragoon is currently high risk-low reward unlike heavensward.

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1.) being able to use geriskogul on CD and holding an off gcd dps skill is something you like doing? If its not the best moment, you sit on geirskogul, not to mention jump and spineshatter when your eyes are fully stacked. This is huge, and a very large oversight. So no, its not the same, they are "similar" but its not the same. Its like saying peanuts and cashews are the same, yes they are both nuts, but they are different.
2.) Granted omega helped with the mechanics a little but regardless of current content, its a thing, and it can and will happen again.
3.)Its not even going to be this high-risk low-reward shit, NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE A DRAGOON TO CONTENT!!

This is the state we are in. Its already going this way.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Snip, I feel like a crab already

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You should not hold any cds if you are doing it on a basis, and not as a workaround for certain mechanics you are doing it wrong. We held cd's before too depending on mechanics, or blew them away. It's part of dealing with performing your job within a fight. In susano my static is pushing him so hard that I don't even hold the second geirskogul. I just use jump and ssd with their respective mirage dives, I waste 2 eyes but I still build 3-4 eyes in the sword phases. I see nothing wrong with it. It's a workaround. And I'm sure that there are players out there that have an even better and more clever workaround.
Yes it might happen again, but not everyfight will cater to everyone. Would be pretty boring if that was the case.
And yes it's high risk low reward even if no one plays it. It's within the design of the class. That's how it is. And I will take dragoon to content and will gladly wipe the floor with the average samurai and work my way throught everything the game throws at my face.

We lack competitivines and it won't come from really poor QoL changes because Yoshida's vision. If you make our core mechanic not affected by mechanics we are never ever getting our personal dps nor our utility up, because "jobs less affected by mechanics have less dps".

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Originally Posted by Erys

... And I will take dragoon to content and will gladly wipe the floor with the average samurai and work my way throught everything the game throws at my face...

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Wat? I mostly agreed with everything you were saying in this thread until this point and lost some credibility with me. If you think an average SAM can't easily out dps a top tier dragoon, you either have only grouped with only shitty SAM or haven't a clue yourself.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Wat? I mostly agreed with everything you were saying in this thread until this point and lost some credibility with me. If you think an average SAM can't easily out dps a top tier dragoon, you either have only grouped with only shitty SAM or haven't a clue yourself.

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Average as in your average joe. Geez. If I was talking 50th percentile sam they wouldn't wipe the floor with me. We would be already outside of the raid before he gets to laugh at me x'D
Because let's face it, most samurai players are popoto tier while they think are dealing god tier dps xP

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Originally Posted by Erys

Snip, I feel like a crab already.

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I don't appreciate personal shots. If this is how the disscussion is going to be, you can have it by yourself. So I'll ask you once, please don't do it anymore. We might not agree, but that is no reason to say that.

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Originally Posted by Erys

You should not hold any cds if you are doing it on a basis, and not as a workaround for certain mechanics you are doing it wrong.

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Oh really? I was pretty sure that dragoon was a burst dps job now, where you hold everything to use with nastrond? Is that not a thing anymore? So we just suffer the penalty and play less than optimally and get screwed? Potency issues be damned, every other job doesn't get penalized that much.

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Originally Posted by Erys

In susano my static is pushing him so hard that I don't even hold the second geirskogul. I just use jump and ssd with their respective mirage dives, I waste 2 eyes but I still build 3-4 eyes in the sword phases.

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This fight in paticular is rough. I agree that using the stuff early is the best option, but like many have said the ramp-up time is to long. So we do the "work around" while every other job is all.. "*yawns*, whats a downtime?" they get to keep their stuff and keep chugging like nothing ever happened, and we spend the rest of the time in sword phase Ramping up again, and not even enough time there to be ready for a party wide burst phase on the transition back into actual combat... how is this not wrong?

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Originally Posted by Erys

We lack competitivines and it won't come from really poor QoL changes because Yoshida's vision. If you make our core mechanic not affected by mechanics we are never ever getting our personal dps nor our utility up, because "job less affected by mechanics have less dps".

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I'm sorry, this made no sence to me, it contradicted itself. Dragoon has the most utility of the melee classes, therefore its supposed to be lower dmg, but at the same time, its the most effected by mechanics of all the melee, so its supposed to have higher dmg? And then we end up on the bottom of the totem pole because of it?

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Originally Posted by Erys

That's how it is. And I will take dragoon to content and will gladly wipe the floor with the average samurai and work my way throught everything the game throws at my face.

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No, you wont because a 75th percentile SAM is the same as a 95th percentile DRG.

I've also seen you're logs and sorry to say, they are not very impressive. Feel free to conjure up any excuse or report me for slander of whatever but you shouldn't say things with such conviction that you haven't proven first.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

No, you wont because a 75th percentile SAM is the same as a 95th percentile DRG.

I've also seen you're logs and sorry to say, they are not very impressive. Feel free to conjure up any excuse or report me for slander of whatever but you shouldn't say things with such conviction that you haven't proven first.

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On top of that, it's not even hard to be a 75th percentile SAM, the skill ceiling is so low.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Snip, yet again

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First of all, I don't made a personal shot against you so keep it your paranoia to yourself. I snipped one of your post before, that's why I used a silly shitty joke to lighten the mood. If you want to get angry, please, be my guest.

Next. You don't hold anything for nastrond because Nastrond lines up with your buffs naturally. You don't hold them unless dealing with mechanics that require it.
Second. So you want the same boring and mediocre playstyles other classes have instead of a thrilling one? We have the thrill we lack our reward. Please give me the high numbers. Thank you.
Again, with susano. You either use 2 nastronds or even three by opening with spineshatter dive, I think I've read something about someone doing that, in p1. Or use 2 Nastronds on the first sword and a Nastrond opener in p2 when susano gets back.

And finally you made the most ridiculous claim of the year. Unless I don't know how to add, drg's battle litany+dragon sight don't get anywhere close Ninja's trick attack ONLY on raid dps. Also ninja has the best aggro tools as utility and TA is every minute for everyone while Dragon Sight is every 2 minutes for 1 person.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0979/sheet.png

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

No, you wont because a 75th percentile SAM is the same as a 95th percentile DRG.

I've also seen you're logs and sorry to say, they are not very impressive. Feel free to conjure up any excuse or report me for slander of whatever but you shouldn't say things with such conviction that you haven't proven first.

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Again I didn't refer to a 50th percentile SAM but at our average player. And lol I don't have any excuse for my logs because I'm not an impressive player. I said myself clearly that there are better players than me. I'm just decent. Why I can't be better? No idea, maybe I'm lazy, maybe I'm bad, maybe I should do the fights more. And you are just stating something that is there for everyone to check, I'm held accountable by it. Would be stupid to classify it as slander.

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Originally Posted by Erys

First of all, I didn't make a personal shot against you, so keep your paranoia to yourself. I snipped one of your post before, that's why I used a silly shitty joke to lighten the mood. If you want to get angry, please, be my guest.

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I didn't need an "I'm sorry" but this just proved my point. I'll take my leave.

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Originally Posted by Erys

... So you want the same boring and mediocre playstyles other classes have instead of a thrilling one? We have the thrill we lack our reward.
...

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I agree on the lack of reward opinion, but not on the "thril" aspect. I dont find being punished by anything not a static dummy while other classes simply breeze past us in every way "thriling".