Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by Keramory

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Hmm...
I asume that might be because Tanks still use damaging skills while holding the aggro so not as noticable as a Healer not using alot of damaging skills.

With the mindset that everything have to go as fast as possible puts more than necessary stress on everyone.
Keep that mindset for the Savage raids where perfomance is priority and let Dungeons be more casual friendly.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

That's my point though. There is no thread about lazy DPS or tanks.

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Actually, you're quite wrong. The parser debate always boils down to "let us have a way to definitively call out bad dps" and "no calling out bad dps is toxic".

Yes I think we should have a parser and yes I think the whole party should be held to some standard of play in matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yet again, you may disagree.....but that is your opinion....nothing more. Game design is game design. DPSing as a Healer was designed to be Optional...nothing more or less even if you do disagree with the man who runs the game!

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You can't just refute people by saying "Nuh uh, the developer said so!" And ignore any points people try to make. The fact is that players are the ones in control of this issue you have, and bringing daddy into the conversation won't force anyone's hand.

And in one fell swoop Yoshi P singlehandedly proves he doesn't understand how the balance of his own game works.

If it's not mandatory to DPS then can we balance the game so that healing actually becomes something that requires full time management to counteract all the downtime they currently have?

Until that happens, lazy healers who spend 80% of a dungeon spamming emotes will continue to be vote kicked in my parties for difference in playstyle. Yoshi-P's opinion be damned.

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Originally Posted by Tanston

After reading thru this thread the only conclusion I can draw is that the way healers are treated by this community is disgusting. Healing in MMOs was always a thankless job but now it's gone from a thankless job to a job that's looked down upon and in some cases treated with open hostility. I'm not sure how any healer can read this thread and not consider re-rolling to a different role.

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I guess, many people saying healers should deal damage roll healers themselves.

So i hope all the healer dont need to dps "people" know that different play stile styles are a good reason to kick as yoshi did say. So you dont dps i dont need you in.

Guys, guys...

The only question I'm caring about right now, is is it ok to tell a healer "You don't pay my sub" when you know for a fact they aren't DPSing during content?

Aka, is it still a valid reason to kick them from the group?

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Until that happens, lazy healers who spend 80% of a dungeon spamming emotes will continue to be vote kicked in my parties for difference in playstyle. Yoshi-P's opinion be dawned.

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And people like me, will gladly click yes. If you initiate it before I do.

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Originally Posted by LordTiberiusRex

Guys, guys...

The only question I'm caring about right now, is is it ok to tell a healer "You don't pay my sub" when you know for a fact they aren't DPSing during content?

Aka, is it still a valid reason to kick them from the group?

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It's valid to kick them if they don't contribute to the DPS. If the majority voted "yes", then yes. Difference of play-style, a valid, non-punishable reason to kick someone out. Negotiation is key "Hey, I appreciate your healing, but I don't need to be top'd off all the time. I also see you're not healing that often, meaning that you could help us with the DPS if you can?" No: KICK. Yes: You have saved a healer from the depths of the lazyness.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

And to Evergrey, I respond in kind. I'm only playing extremes because it feels like you are. I'm not saying healers need to be performing at peak capacity (God knows df dps don't >.>; ) but any contribution when a heal is nice. ABC is a good rule of thumb no matter the role.

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I try to stay in a neutral zone.
I appreciate if Healers support with DPS when there's no healing needed.
But I won't rage at them if they don't.

And it might've been good from my part to say that I speak from the mindset of Dungeon running.
If we speak about Raids and Extremes I want everyone to do their best, even Healers helping out with DPS.
But that is content that demands more of everyone than a dungeon so it kinda speaks for itself.
Where dungeons are more casual friendly and less demanding.

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Originally Posted by LordTiberiusRex

Guys, guys...

The only question I'm caring about right now, is is it ok to tell a healer "You don't pay my sub" when you know for a fact they aren't DPSing during content?

Aka, is it still a valid reason to kick them from the group?

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Is it a valid reason? Difference of playstyles covers this, yes. Would I initiate a kick? No. Would I vote yes if one was initiated? Maybe.

I just got to post..... if healer dps is completely optional..... how would a 4 person healer pug team in potd ever be viable????

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Originally Posted by Keramory

That's my point though. There is no thread about lazy DPS or tanks. It's only ever healers that get brought up. Yes there are some threads the healers themselves bring up and cry... but many... many others are brought up and continued to spammed by non healers.

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The closest thing to an equivalent to the endless healers should dps debate for dps classes is every time some ridiculous person pulls the old, "I'm an ice mage!" schtick and I am pretty sure they get called out for it to an even greater extent.

Thank you Yoshida! :D

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Originally Posted by usalia

So i hope all the healer dont need to dps "people" know that different play stile styles are a good reason to kick as yoshi did say. So you dont dps i dont need you in.

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Just FYI Yoshi never said that. That was a NA gm. Yoshi wants players to respect each other.

It should be a little bit better for healer dps. The removal of stance dance should make some people feel way more comfortable. Not knowing the cats times or animation locks some abilities were instant. The idea that dps was garbage with out cleric and then being stuck in cleric for a few seconds probably made people feel uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Hmm...
I asume that might be because Tanks still use damaging skills while holding the aggro so not as noticable as a Healer not using alot of damaging skills

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Glad someone else hinted at it. That\\'s exactly the reason. It\\'s simply easier to eye ball a healer being lazy.


As for the parsing. Yes for dps (as well as healers btw) there are discussions to increase their damage. Again I never said everyone\\'s lazy. But those threads are discussions on rotations not arguing why people aren\\'t buffing themselves in dungeons and spamming the same rotation over and over.

And to the healer threads... yes again I alonowledge and agree some healers stir it up with their posts. It\\'s not all healers though.

Sorry but there will always be a disconnect between some healers and non healers looking at the reactions in this thread. I still DPS but I sure don\\'t blame other healers for not doing it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

I just got to post..... if healer dps is completely optional..... how would a 4 person healer pug team in potd ever be viable????

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Very simple: Healer dps ISN'T completely optional everywhere. There are times and places where healers HAVE to do dps to succeed.
All-healer team in PotD is one such occasion. Solo play is another.

My take on it is this game isn't designed to require max efficiency. You won't fail your dungeon if the healer isn't dpsing.
I figure this stance is more to protect healers that aren't comfortable with DPSing than it is to encourage lazy behavior. That interview also mentions that the Cleric Stance change was to reduce the risk for healers that wanted to try DPSing as they wouldn't have to worry about being locked in when they need to heal.

I know for myself I was terrified to DPS when I first leveled WHM around 2.2. It was a slow process of me starting to DoT things during downtime then finally using Cleric as I got more comfortable with the role.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I try to stay in a neutral zone.
I appreciate if Healers support with DPS when there's no healing needed.
But I won't rage at them if they don't.

And it might've been good from my part to say that I speak from the mindset of Dungeon running.
If we speak about Raids and Extremes I want everyone to do their best, even Healers helping out with DPS.
But that is content that demands more of everyone than a dungeon so it kinda speaks for itself.
Where dungeons are more casual friendly and less demanding.

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100% this.

Yoshi and the Devs might not account for healer dps and i guess they don't account for tank stance dancing either, yet it helps a lot in early progression. i always felt they think DD's should perform higher per average.

anyway, in more casual centered content like dungeons and story raid mode no healer should stand around doing nothing. with the change to the healer damage calculation no healer should feel uncomfortable doing damage as there is almost no risk involved anymore. there will still remain those that watch netflix or do something else and think it justifies to underperform. personally i think it's disrespectful to those that try but even if it annoys me I can't change it. As long as the healer is at least successful healing i won't try to kick anyone.
In the end I'm happy whenever i have a random healer doing damage on top of keeping ppl alive.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

That's my point though. There is no thread about lazy DPS or tanks. It's only ever healers that get brought up.

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That's because only very few seriously defend a DPS that only spams 1 or 1-2-3 or lets Garuda do his damage while he's on follow. They're lazy and bad, everybody knows and agrees, it's not controversial that they're lazy and/or bad and it's also typically not very controversial whether it's okay to kick them or not. The controversy in those debates stems from using a parser to determine that, rather than observing the DPS in question for it.

When a healer stands still for extended periods of time instead of DPSing however, it's controversial whether they're lazy and/or bad. There are people who think that as long as "they're doing their job", it's okay to not do more. And that's why threads about healers constantly pop up and explode. A thread about lazy DPS would just quickly turn into a general parser debate.

Like someone said before, the developers just need to do two things:

1. Increase the amount of healing needed in dungeons, trials and raids.
2. When developing content add in the damage that will be dealt by the healers.

This will make it so that healers need to do damage or else the group will fail.

The downside is:

1. Groups wont be able to clear (fast enough) the content, because dps from healers is not an extra dps anymore.
2. The healers that picked the class for the healer role, do not want to dps and will stop playing those roles with random players or at all.
3. Healers just like Tanks will suffer from less people playing those roles, which inturn means duty finder queue will take ages.

The upside is:

SE will remove Tanks and Healers and turn FFXIV into DPS only, no queue, no role differences.

WIN/WIN?

I mean, I'm still gonna boot lazy healers even despite Yoshida's comments, his words aren't end all be all. If he wants it that way he should make it so that healers need to be more active.

I'm not gonna overpower/flash/etc once every 5 seconds just because I can.

And a DPS shouldn't click one ability of their combo every five seconds just because /eventually/ it'll get done. If a healer wants to stand there and do just the bare minimum when everyone else is actually trying. I will vote kick them and 90% of the time unless they que'd with a friend it will go through. Now if it's a hard healing fight I won't say anything, but any inactivity like letting a SCH pet do your healing I'm not accepting

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Originally Posted by LordTiberiusRex

Guys, guys...

The only question I'm caring about right now, is is it ok to tell a healer "You don't pay my sub" when you know for a fact they aren't DPSing during content?

Aka, is it still a valid reason to kick them from the group?

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Yes, differing playstyles is a legitimate reason for a kick.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

And in one fell swoop Yoshi P singlehandedly proves he doesn't understand how the balance of his own game works.

If it's not mandatory to DPS then can we balance the game so that healing actually becomes something that requires full time management to counteract all the downtime they currently have.

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This is probably the smartest reply to the healer topic. I've never understood why healers have down time to begin with.

I have no idea why someone, healer or otherwise, would want to just stand around for periods of time doing nothing while their comrades in arms are not in harms way but are doing everything they can to get through the dungeon and support their fellow team mates. I for one would find it ungodly boring and very disrespectful to not contribute.

This is of course my opinion and people may argue it, but why stop contributing to the group? Even the dps pushing one button is at least contributing.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Today, Mr. Happy posted a video in which he describes a interview he did with Yoshi P during the reveal that occurred last month. !

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TBH there are tons of people who say they kick non dps healers and yet I've seen it. Ive done daily roulettes where many healers doesn't do it. Me on other hand I don't care much, but it's really annoying seing how much they are allowed to AFK. I actually had to AFK once as smn and like look at the other screen since I had to reply a support chat I was waiting long for while dpsing every 10 seconds so I could reply, guess what happened to me? They told me to stop afk, the healer (which is funny) was the guy who said it and they barely and I mean BEARLY did anything in the entire run.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Yet again, you may disagree.....but that is your opinion....nothing more. Game design is game design. DPSing as a Healer was designed to be Optional...nothing more or less even if you do disagree with the man who runs the game!

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Which is fine, but don't expect others to play the way you want them to play too. Like how DPS should play or tank should play. It all goes all ways. Tanks mitigate different, why not just mitigate boss only, since apperently the boss are the hardest fights in the dungeons, apperently to the master healer we all seen turned into a meme.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

This is probably the smartest reply to the healer topic. I've never understood why healers have down time to begin with.

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Because, unfortunately you have to balance for the lowest common denominator. There have been hard dungeons before and people screamed their fool heads off until they were nerfed. I would be thrilled to the gills if we had to spend all our time healing, but unfortunately something that would make me happy would likely lock a lot of other people out of playing a healer at all.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Like someone said before, the developers just need to do two things:

1. Increase the amount of healing needed in dungeons, trials and raids.

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I have a feeling if they just did this the whole debate would be over with.

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Originally Posted by Areic

I mean, I'm still gonna boot lazy healers even despite Yoshida's comments, his words aren't end all be all. If he wants it that way he should make it so that healers need to be more active.

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DPS'ing as healer also takes confidence, booting people doesnt help build that. I know quite a few nervous healers (and even I was one way back when I started in 2.0 granted booting wasnt a big deal then). Some have been booted for it as well if they dont speak up in a dungeon. And thats just ridiculous. It's like booting people who don't know a fight. They will just re-queue and make other peoples lives hell. SO HELP THEM. Help them learn and build their confidence so the rest of us don't have to deal with your "decision making skills"

So long as I dont die, I'm ok with the healer doing whatever he/she damn well pleases and i guide where i can. They will learn.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I have a feeling if they just did this the whole debate would be over with.

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The debate would be over and the shouts for nerfs would begin ;)

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

SNIP

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I'm more than happy to help healers. But more times than not you can even look at their gear and this is someone who's experienced in healing. I don't boot them without a word, I give them heads up. Put in as much effort as your team please. You can do more than just stand there, etc. I rarely heal outside of pvp, but sometimes I do get in the mood, and it's literally as easy as it seems. Unless a relatively undergeared tank is doing 3-4 groups of pulls in an expert, healing is not a stressful job minus a small handful of bosses in experts ( And I literally don't care if you dps or not on bosses, mechanics are a thing ), but for 80% of the dungeon which is just clearing trash, honestly I could be choking the chicken and paying half attention and heal just fine, even if for some dumb reason all three other party members decided to just stand in everything

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

DPS'ing as healer also takes confidence

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Cleric stance is moved so it's fine from Stormblood. However, issue is many people can't even heal savage, leave alone normal modes lol. Tuning up the healing in dungeons would just make it worse for so many healers, since many can't do it. This allows healers to have the most down timed class in the game, espcially in dungeons. I'm fine with non dps healers, but they shouldn't expect me to try my best in dungeons. Most peoples mottos who are againts dps healers ''as long the dungeon is done''. I mean if shit is on farm. why cant things die faster? Ever been to the same job for year? The more you work the faster and confident you turn into. Not saying the game should be threated as a job, but it's basically the same thing. Why would anyone love those 40 min dungeons, that's excactly what many in here are for. Since they are allowed to chill out, everyone else is, why should they complain? The community is far away from being good as claimed, there are so many people who simply just wants to take, rather than give.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

And in one fell swoop Yoshi P singlehandedly proves he doesn't understand how the balance of his own game works.

If it's not mandatory to DPS then can we balance the game so that healing actually becomes something that requires full time management to counteract all the downtime they currently have?

Until that happens, lazy healers who spend 80% of a dungeon spamming emotes will continue to be vote kicked in my parties for difference in playstyle. Yoshi-P's opinion be damned.

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It's still a myth that healers have downtime. If they are playing in a lazy manner by casting only Medica II and then doing nothing else, or spamming the chat with whatever, then maybe you got a party troll and you can justify using "harassment" as the kick reason. Or maybe you as the tank could just pull everything in the dungeon and see if they can really keep up.

Likely why WHM/everyone is losing stoneskin, it's to increase healing requirements. Sorry guys, you were cheesing the dungeons with it, it's gone~. Next patch, the regen buffs disappear, then the patch after that all the shields disappear, all replaced with Cure 4/Benefic 4/Aldoquium 2 or something else ridiculous making the healers even more the same~.

Seriously though, the healer aspect of the game is painted into a corner because either you pick WHM for healing, Scholar for Shields, or Astrologian for both, where the shields can't stack with each other, and I think that's what this is coming down to. There's too many shields. If you somehow drop 8 healers into the dungeon, only two of them can use the shields, everyone else's overwrite each others, but if you drop 8 WHM's into the dungeon they could all in theory cast Medica II at the same time and never get damaged.

Basically the way to restore balance is to actually give WHM back it's stoneskin and protect, and remove those from cross-class/role. Put something like reflect shield in the cross-class/role (eg 10% of magic is reflected back to caster, both healing and damage.) Cast Reflect on a party member, and 10% of damage is reflected back to mobs, or if you heal the party member they only get 90% of the heal, but 10% is reflected back to the healer all without enmity change. Also much shorter buff time, like 5 minutes, but applies to the party like protect.

YoshiP's feelings on how you should and shouldn't play will matter when you're in a dungeon with him. The rest of the time you're stuck with what people who actually play the game think. This isn't the first time he has shown he is out of touch with how this game actually works, I doubt it will be the last.

Healer DPS is more scrutinized in extreme primals and savage where there is a substantial difference in the amount of mechanics the party has to do because of damage (Zurvan Soar, A12S summon alexander phase/puddles). Skipping undesirable mechanics is actually the best mitigation in the game, not healing it.

That is where more of the effort is known. In dungeon content usually you just add several minutes to the run depending on other party members. The easy 24-mans and dungeons doesn't matter so much. But it's really SE's fault for tuning that content so low, but we all know there is a pretty large skill gap in this game and they have to make that content accessible to even the low-end and newest players.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's still a myth that healers have downtime.

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Ahahahhhahhaaahahhhaahahahahahaaaahhaahaa

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's still a myth that healers have downtime.

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Many times you said this and I will reply with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgM...youtu.be&t=565
What myth? If you ignore this post like you did to every thread, you are just a troll, so please stop.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

And in one fell swoop Yoshi P singlehandedly proves he doesn't understand how the balance of his own game works.

If it's not mandatory to DPS then can we balance the game so that healing actually becomes something that requires full time management to counteract all the downtime they currently have?

Until that happens, lazy healers who spend 80% of a dungeon spamming emotes will continue to be vote kicked in my parties for difference in playstyle. Yoshi-P's opinion be damned.

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I agree with this. Nothing irks me more than a healer who spams emotes instead of dpsing. Just stand still then! Stop flooding my chat with your emote. When I heal, it feels weird just standing around waiting for people to take damage- so I learned how to cleric stance dance so I wouldn't feel disrespectful and what not.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Now that even the head of the game thinks this. Maybe that will finally end this tiring debate once and for all.

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i doubt that, this is not the first time Yoshi P state that
just not clearly state like this time
but you know it is forum game
it is important that we know it is optional
if anyone ask me,
do i want faster clearing time, yes i do
do i feel boring when no heal is needed, yes i do
but if anyone initial a vote kick solely based on such reason, i will always press NO