PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

This is not entirely true. If a tank holds aggro in tank stance for a whole dungeon, nobody says, " You should have been in dps stance, scrub! Try to contribute more, you lazy tank!" They are doing their ROLE in the party.

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In dungeons, being in Tank stance is often more beneficial since you are doing big pulls. When you play with pugs, it also make your health more stable and reduce damage spikes if paired with a good cooldown management... which creates great opportunities for healers to DPS. What a small world.

But whatever the case, the gain between tank stance vs. DPS stance is tiny compared to what a healer can provide in terms of damage output if they weren't just sitting in the corner, waiting for the tank to get to the EXTREMELY DANGEROUS THRESHOLD OF 90% HEALTH OH MY GOD HE'S GOING TO DIE WHAT SHOULD I DO HERE TAKE A CURE II OMG OMG OMG BENEDICTION IS ON COOLDOWN BECAUSE I USED IT WHEN HE WENT TO 95% HP 2 MINUTES AGO HEALER IS SUCH A STRESSFUL JOB!!11!1!1!!!1!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You say that. And yet just from what I've seen, that's very much the norm. Rare, if ever do I see people hold DPS accountable, preferring to just shrug all the load onto the healer instead. After all, that's the meta, aye? Healers are expected to carry dps for the vast majority, yet even suggest that a dps could do better and suddenly the entire community flames for it.

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Contribute =/= Carry.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Healers are expected to carry dps for the vast majority...

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Literally no one expects this.

Everyone knows that a healer's number one priority is to heal. In the same vein, a the responsibility of the DPS is to deal damage. If people are blaming the healers and the healers alone for not meeting a DPS check, they are mentally vacant.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So, just to clarify here...it is okay if say...a PLD runs a dungeon and only uses Flash and defensive cooldowns. Nothing but Flash and defensive cooldowns. Keeps aggro of course but uses absolutely nothing else and that includes using zero sword combos...is this okay?

Or...you know wouldn't most people ask them to contribute DPS by using the combos they are given instead of them just spamming flash enough to hold hate then just using cool downs then AFKing until the mobs are dead?

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first they would lose hate cause they run out of MP, second if they use every GCD on Flash they are not afking. i've seen many tanks pull 3 mobs at a time and doing sword combos only and not use defensive cooldowns. no one bitches at the tank to pull more, no one bitches at the tank to use cooldowns cause 3 mobs isn't doing anything to them in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

Contribute =/= Carry.

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And yet their carrying the DPS can't clear a dps check without their assistance, which is effectively what the community wants in the first place. People don't push for the dps to get better at all from what I've seen, preferring to instead berate the healer for not dpsing when the issue is the dragoon spamming CT combo without putting up HT and ignoring BotD.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Top score with the silliness.

Literally no one expects this.

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What game do you play, cause I want in. I'm remarking on instances that have legitimately happened in game.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

first they would lose hate cause they run out of MP, second if they use every GCD on Flash they are not afking. i've seen many tanks pull 3 mobs at a time and doing sword combos only and not use defensive cooldowns. no one bitches at the tank to pull more, no one bitches at the tank to use cooldowns cause 3 mobs isn't doing anything to them in tank stance.

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Not talking about MP so that is irrelevant... it was a hypothetical scenario if you notice.

If a PLD had full MP for every pull and were geared then yes you could hold hate by just using Flash until your MP runs out then AFKing.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So, just to clarify here...it is okay if say...a PLD runs a dungeon and only uses Flash and defensive cooldowns. Nothing but Flash and defensive cooldowns. Keeps aggro of course but uses absolutely nothing else and that includes using zero sword combos...is this okay?

Or...you know wouldn't most people ask them to contribute DPS by using the combos they are given instead of them just spamming flash enough to hold hate then just using cool downs then AFKing until the mobs are dead?

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Honestly, I'd probably be more amazed they managed to maintain their MP pool without using at least the riot blade combination. You say MP is irrelevant in this situation, but you still do need to keep in mind that it will go down and it will need replenishing unless you're running cheats or are a GM. However, in my personal experience, a paladin using only flash has never been able to hold aggro against a good DPS that wants to do nothing but their maximum potential.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

no one bitches at the tank to pull more.

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Whaaat? people do bitch at tanks to pull more 100% of the time, in fact the emphasis on doing Giant pulls was such a big deal in the community square enix started to change the way they designed dungeons to have significantly more Gates or slow timed spawn of enemies that only appear after specific mobs are killed then previously, in early dungeons you can run from one boss to another without a single thing stopping you and this was normal and expected , now its like a 6 mob limit before square enix puts in a gate or requires you to kill a specific enemy before a new set of monsters spawn.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

no one bitches at the tank to pull more....

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You can't possibly be serious. Out of all scenarios: a) Tanks not pulling enough b) DPS being lazy and c) Healers not DPSing, a) happens EXPONENTIALLY more frequently than the other 2 combined.


I am beginning to wonder if it is a data center difference.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Not talking about MP so that is irrelevant... it was a hypothetical scenario if you notice.

If a PLD had full MP for every pull and were geared then yes you could hold hate by just using Flash until your MP runs out then AFKing.

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that also only works if the DPS is bad, your hypothetical is bad. there are actual events that happen that you don't acknowledge, lots of tanks don't use mitigation cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

I did say it is fine for a healer to not DPS if their party is okay with it, but if the majority of their group is not okay with it then something needs to change, either their stance on DPS or their position in the party.

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I did miss that, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

I am beginning to wonder if it is a data center difference.

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It's not a DC difference because I am on his DC and I seen tanks getting bugged for not pulling enough or DPS running ahead to pull more if the tank fails to do so. So he must have somehow not come across this himself? Although I don't know how that is possible...

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Originally Posted by Aramina

I am beginning to wonder if it is a data center difference.

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Apparently there are data centers wherein only healers are persecuted and blamed for everything.

Over here on Aether, I feel like everyone gets shit on pretty equally...

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

Whaaat? people do bitch at tanks to pull more 100% of the time

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i don't, so there goes your 100%.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

You can't possibly be serious. Out of all scenarios: a) Tanks not pulling enough b) DPS being lazy and c) Healers not DPSing, a) happens EXPONENTIALLY more frequently than the other 2 combined.


I am beginning to wonder if it is a data center difference.

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i tank a lot so i guess i have the opportunity to see it less but when i don't tank i don't see anyone complain about small pulls.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

And yet their carrying the DPS can't clear a dps

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https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...k-it-means.jpg

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

when the issue is the dragoon spamming CT combo without putting up HT and ignoring BotD.

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And clearly you are right now berating DPS and citing specific examples of times where DPS have annoyed you, if you are choosing not to speak up at these times that's on you, I have never played with a single person who would let a DPS get away with playing their job completely wrong as they were not meeting DPS checks in a fight.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Apparently there are data centers wherein only healers are persecuted and blamed for everything.

Over here on Aether, I feel like everyone gets shit on pretty equally...

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i'm not implying i see healers get persecuted either, nobody does, most people are pretty cordial and just let people play at their own pace.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

that also only works if the DPS is bad, your hypothetical is bad. there are actual events that happen that you don't acknowledge, lots of tanks don't use mitigation cooldowns.

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I cannot make sense of what you are even talking about now (because I mentioned cooldowns already) so best to give up because my initial question wasn't even directed at you.

Also the DPS being bad or not has nothing to do with it...the point is you could still do that and hold hate so still would be interesting to see a PLD do nothing but flash and sit there waiting for the mobs to die :/

"DPS are never held accountable!"

So let's have an ingame pars--

"PARSERS WILL MAKE THE COMMUNITY TOXIC"

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

i don't, so there goes your 100%.



i tank a lot so i guess i have the opportunity to see it less but when i don't tank i don't see anyone complain about small pulls.

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Being hyperbolic doesn't make my statement invalid, healers are not the only ones that get bitched at for how they play their job.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

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I used to, yet whenever I would the other dps and healer/tank would whine at me for not CSing/Nongritting enough, even when I had spent the entire fight outside of the enmity establishing opener in tank stance. o3o People just don't talk about dps.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Over here on Aether, I feel like everyone gets shit on pretty equally...

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True. Though to be fair, I don't see a ton of bitching from any role about any other role, but what does exist is fairly equally spread out amongst the roles.... well aside from the tank pulling thing. I really do see DPS ask tanks to pull more any time they pull a few unless the tank explicitly says he is new/not comfortable with tanking yet. Even then though, they will still encourage them to try and I may have "accidentally" butt pulled a time or two before to show them that they really are capable of tanking more/trusting me to keep them alive. :)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I used to, yet whenever I would the other dps and healer/tank would whine at me for not CSing/Nongritting enough, even when I had spent the entire fight outside of the enmity establishing opener in tank stance. o3o People just don't talk about dps.

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Because it's harder for people to you can;t single people out as easy because we are not allowed to use parsers to find the person who is bringing the team down, with a healer it is very obvious when they are doing things suboptimally in terms of DPS because you can see every time they cast a spell and every time they use cleric stance, so I think of its less about DPS are not held responsible but more of they don't know which DPS specifically to hold responsible.

There is also still a big difference between TRYING to do DPS and being bad then straight up Refusing to do DPS, if a healer is trying to use cleric stance even if they are not like competing with DPS in terms of their output I would never say anything (unless it was like a scheduled static raid group where I would everyone to the standards that I hold myself to.)
because trying is what people really care about the most, people don't want you to tell them you don't want to try to make things faster/better.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Snip!

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I mean, generally speaking, things are done in a kind way. If I am on healer and I feel like a tank can pull more, I would say something along the lines of, "feel free to pull more if you would like!" Things only escalate when people get super defensive and take things personally.

That said, I don't see a lot of bitching on Sarg. If anything, our meta over here might be to put a lot of pressure on WARs to do ridiculous deeps.

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Originally Posted by Pancakesplease

That reason is why a LOT of people aren't running healers in this game, the expectations on the healer are enormous, when compared to say a DPS class.

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This is how you can tell someone's never played a DPS at endgame

I feel like the fairest compromise would be to make cleric stance psuedo perm. Make the duration 15 seconds and cd 10 (preferred) - 15 seconds. Healer dps is going to go down in relation to tanks and dps even if you were to do it the way I'm suggesting. This just gives healers a better trade off than a weak raging strikes... like seriously?... pps. If Sch doesn't get a replacement for blizzard II for our aoe ave to a lesser extent aero for our weaving, Imma be so so disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

I feel like the fairest compromise would be to make cleric stance psuedo perm. Make the duration 15 seconds and cd 10 (preferred) - 15 seconds. Healer dps is going to go down in relation to tanks and dps even if you were to do it the way I'm suggesting. This just gives healers a better trade off than a weak raging strikes... like seriously?... pps. If Sch doesn't get a replacement for blizzard II for our aoe ave to a lesser extent aero for our weaving, Imma be so so disappointed.

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Healer DPS will scale on Mind now, just consider this new CS as an offensive CD, nothing more. About an AOE for SCH, pretty sure they will get one between lvl 60 and 70, or even before since they are also changing pre-60 abilities.

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Originally Posted by EdgeFayth

Healer DPS will scale on Mind now, just consider this new CS as an offensive CD, nothing more. About an AOE for SCH, pretty sure they will get one between lvl 60 and 70, or even before since they are also changing pre-60 abilities.

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So what if it scales on mind? Perm 10% boost vs 5% every 75 seconds??? You swapped cleric stance on and off during a weave so the dps gained is still pretty close to that 10%. It's better than healers without cleric stance, but it's still a let down.

i'm half expecting them to completely nerf the damage healers deal to a bare minimum (just enough to get by in solo content). The devs had made their stance known, yet the player base are dead-set in forcing a dps meta for healers. I find it kind of funny though how they contradict themselves so it makes sense why the player base follow the current mindset. "We want white mage to be a pure healer" -gives them a higher level stone spell-

I personally wish they would make healing more important. There are also other creative ways to give healers something to do during down time other than dps.

Also, I'm one who doesn't mind throwing damage out if i'm comfortable with it, but i'm also one who won't break a sweat dropping a group who throws an attitude about my not dpsing for whatever reason i'm not doing so. (I just really hate stance dancing mechanics so i'm happy it is going, might actually pick up healing again soon)

what i see from this "new meta" is...
why we need DPS job in this game anymore? we have a DPS job whom can Heal at the same time (WHM/SCH/AST)
just take a 1 tank and 7 healer to do a raid content from 4.0 now... yup a new meta... lol

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

This is how you can tell someone's never played a DPS at endgame

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and this is how you can tell someone's never played a healer at endgame :O
Besides, she didnt even bring up endgame. Why did you?


Before you try and act all mighty about how hard it is to be a good dps at endgame, I suggest you'd try and become a good dps first.
Don't forget, theres open sources to check on you. Act all high and mighty, and its gonna get right back at you.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

However, in my personal experience, a paladin using only flash has never been able to hold aggro against a good DPS that wants to do nothing but their maximum potential.

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I just did an expert on PLD i268 with my BF on BLM i268 and a bard with i275 anima and i260-i270 gear and for some of the pulls I only used Flash and nothing else but cooldowns and I still held hate with no issue. The damage was far from bad so yeah it is possible.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I cannot make sense of what you are even talking about now (because I mentioned cooldowns already) so best to give up because my initial question wasn't even directed at you.

Also the DPS being bad or not has nothing to do with it...the point is you could still do that and hold hate so still would be interesting to see a PLD do nothing but flash and sit there waiting for the mobs to die :/

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Oh no, he's actually quite right...


DPS who actually play their character and know how to are going to quite literally double the damage you put out as a healer.

If both DPS are pulling their weight the run will be smooth and quick without you DPSing at all. And I've seen it time and again. I'm on the other side putting out major DPS, and the side car, the other guy is barely eeking it out. I can tell because I know exactly how far the mob's health will drop with my attacks at this point in most of the high level dungeons. I've been through them so much. Its then that I notice healer DPS making up for and carrying the other guy.

That is what you are doing when you HAVE to DPS...you're making up for one or both of the DPS's in group not pulling their wieght. It means the other DPS is so poor he's barely able to do the damage you are. Obviously keep in mind iLvl differences, but seriously two DPS's that know what they're doing will wipe things with or without you very quickly.

And I can tell, how?

The number of Holies or Gravities I can count before they're dead.

If I'm going... one... two... thr... whoa they're dead... I've got a good DPS partner who is keeping up with me, and you barely got off 2 holy/gravities

If I've already blown Shadowflare, Tri-Disaster + Bane, Two Painflares, Deathflare, and I'm down to using Miasma 2 and about to get in and spam Bliz 2... and I'm starting to count the 4th or 5th Gravity/Holy... I already know the other DPS partner sucks. It means the only two people who are DPSing are me and you, and the other guy is probably single targeting mobs like that ONE mob somehow is more important than the other 6-7.

Scholars DPS is sneakier, so I can't count theirs like that.

I already know healer DPS is helpful... but..... as to how much help you're ACTUALLY providing is wholely dependent upon how crappy or good my DPS partner is.

So blaming the Healer for DPS problems with the group has little to nothing to do with a Healer OR their DPS.

Its ALL on the DPS themselves.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

???????????

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I said DPS has nothing to do with the scenario I was talking about in a previous post with tanks holding hate with only Flash...so I think you must have misunderstood? Because none of what you just wrote has anything to do with what I was talking about nor did I ever blame DPS problems on healers O.o

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Originally Posted by Miste

I just did an expert on PLD i268 with my BF on BLM i268 and a bard with i275 anima and i260-i270 gear and for some of the pulls I only used Flash and nothing else but cooldowns and I still held hate with no issue. The damage was far from bad so yeah it is possible.

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I seen a i270 brd with a i275 weapon pulling 1200 DPS on aoe (healer can hit 2000-2600 depending on what pull you are talking about) no idea what single target bosses was didn't get to see the meter for bosses, but point is, saying you held hate off a brd like that may not be saying much. For BLM I am not sure, my friend releases thunderclouds like mad and tanked before off it. But blm aoe is not very big, (unless the BLM gets lucky and allows thundercloud spam on the different monsters) now if you held off hate like that with a good SMN, then that is worth noting.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I said DPS has nothing to do with the scenario I was talking about in a previous post with tanks holding hate with only Flash...so I think you must have misunderstood? Because none of what you just wrote has anything to do with what I was talking about nor did I ever blame DPS problems on healers O.o

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My apologies I may have quoted the wrong post on that.

That said... my point about the DPS problems have nothing to do with healers, is dead on.

DPS needs to be called out more often, rather than blaming it on the healers.

"Weak" DPS you can hold hate from pretty easily as a tank, in-fact it works both ways. It's not about ilvl or gear, it's about doing maximum damage and threat.

You can run into an arrogant tank gets used to weak aggro threat because of this, then when really *good* DPS shows up they try to pull bosses and things with Deliverance or Sword Oath (without a Ninja Shadewalker, showing how dumb they are) and they wet their pants losing aggro, even if DPS use things such as Quelling.

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Originally Posted by Lazka

what i see from this "new meta" is...
why we need DPS job in this game anymore? we have a DPS job whom can Heal at the same time (WHM/SCH/AST)
just take a 1 tank and 7 healer to do a raid content from 4.0 now... yup a new meta... lol

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Healer job damage output is vastly lower than DPS job damage output. Unless they change current potency values, healer job damage output is going to be even lower now, making the gap between them and DPS jobs even more vast. I'd have to actually test it, but I wouldn't be surprised if healer job damage output is lower than even tank jobs.

I was reading this thread a bit earlier today and noticed some people said tha kicking a healer for not DPS'ing would be considered abusing the kick system. I would like to remind people that while it is not listed as one of the options, it is allowed to kick someone due to "difference in play style," and I am sure not DPS'ing as a healer would fall under this. So I don't think anyone would get any punishment for kicking a healer for not DPS'ing.



If someone already mentioned this then I apologize for the unnecessary post; I stopped on somewhere between page 18 and 24.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Healer job damage output is vastly lower than DPS job damage output. Unless they change current potency values, healer job damage output is going to be even lower now, making the gap between them and DPS jobs even more vast. I'd have to actually test it, but I wouldn't be surprised if healer job damage output is lower than even tank jobs.

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Some numbers from a random casual static...

tanks: 1.2k - 1.8k
healers: 1k - 1.3k
DPS: 2.5k - 3k

Can be found on a site which must not be named...

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Healer job damage output is vastly lower than DPS job damage output. Unless they change current potency values, healer job damage output is going to be even lower now, making the gap between them and DPS jobs even more vast. I'd have to actually test it, but I wouldn't be surprised if healer job damage output is lower than even tank jobs.

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Today, a healer can replace a melee DPS in A12 Savage time gate just fine and nuke down that add DPS check (assuming the other melee just LB2 the healer add). This is actually the most optimal strat in A12S, not having a healer just heal themselves and wait for a DPS to down their add. That's how much healer DPS brings to the table in end-game raiding.

A good tank will put up about 1500+ DPS, a good healer can put up 1000+ dps in A12S, not as vast today. But tanks are also getting a damage nerf as a result of the STR change from VIT/STR.