Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Taika

You do realise that if one SCH spends 30% of their time healing and 70% DPSing, and another SCH spends 100% of their time healing, and both are keeping their parties alive, the first one is much better at their job... No one is saying that healers shouldn't cover the healing requirements for an instance. It's simply logical that after those healing requirements are covered, the healer will spend rest of their time doing something useful (which is DPS).

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Of course I realise that and understand all of your posts, but the one and only reason for me playing this game is because I love healing. Like I said before If I couldnt heal I wouldnt play it. I am just a little tired of people looking at healers and going no dps vote kick. Not me cos I hardly enter the fray any more cos of such intolerance and dps not doing their jobs pointing fingers at healers. I wanted to point out I do dps given the space with my capability

Don't DPS but you will be considered a mediocre healer. Nobody is going to say you are a good healer if you don't even try or you don't want to DPS. If you are trying to be considered a good healer, you aren't going to.

You sign up as a "healer", as you have the skillset most capable of keeping people alive, but your healing skills are only a portion of the tools you have available. Your DPS skills exist as a means to help kill the enemy faster during the time that do not need to provide healing (of which there is ample opportunity). Killing an enemy faster is the best form of "healing" there is. Don't have to heal when there's no damage taken.

While SMN and BLM can bring Physick to a duty, them using it is an incredibly inefficient use of their GCDs and thus should be reserved for the most dire of circumstances (eg if the healer is dead and they will not survive another hit). Due to the lack of MND, or Cleric Stance to swap their stats, they have incredibly poor healing output (~600hp for BLM's physick vs ~6000hp for WHM's cure 1), whereas healer DPS output is nowhere near as poor in comparison, and as stated many times before, you have lots of GCDs that would otherwise go to waste if you don't DPS as a healer. SMN and BLM do not have "spare" GCDs that can be wasted, unless mechanics force them to stop, or they intentionally stop casting (which is bad).

As always. remember your ABCs - Always Be Casting...and for the love of Thaliak, don't overheal.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Don't DPS but you will be considered a mediocre healer. Nobody is going to say you are a good healer if you don't even try or you don't want to DPS. If you are trying to be considered a good healer, you aren't going to.

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Compaired to some I am a mediocre healer I know this, That does not mean I dont try like 3 commends in the wall yesterday, but raid, while learng a fight I struggle and I need to learn the fight to do it. but cant learn it or practice enough cos of the intolerence of the communty

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Compaired to some I am a mediocre healer I know this, That does not mean I dont try like 3 commends in the wall yesterday, but raid, while learng a fight I struggle and I need to learn the fight to do it. but cant learn it or practice enough cos of the intolerence of the communty

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I don't think people care much if you try to play it safe in learning parties, and don't DPS much. If you do run into people like this - definitely let them know you aren't used to the outgoing damage yet and want to learn so that you can add in more DPS. I learned all of A10S and cleared it the same day - I did minimal DPS, as my main focus was keeping the group alive. Over the next few weeks I became more familiar, and I know when I can and cannot swap into cleric's stance, and I deal much more damage than I did in my first clear.

If you're willing to DPS but you're learning and don't want to go too crazy, I don't see why anyone should complain. It's the people who outright refuse to DPS that end up catching hate from other players in the group. Nobody should be asking for their healers to put out as much DPS as healers in, say, world first groups. As long as you do what you can, where you can, and keep the group alive, there shouldn't be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Compaired to some I am a mediocre healer I know this, That does not mean I dont try like 3 commends in the wall yesterday, but raid, while learng a fight I struggle and I need to learn the fight to do it. but cant learn it or practice enough cos of the intolerence of the communty

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Learn the fight as you intend to clear it. If you're there to clear as the support healer, you're there to learn how to dps as much as possible while figuring out where your healing is mandatory. This causes mistakes, stress, communications, corrections, and learning. But in the end the whole team is stronger for it. I'm talking about savage fights here and not casual content.

If you're only queueing for roulettes, and you aren't comfortable doing any more than minimal dps, no one's going to fault you for it. I've sat in cleric stance for the majority of a run and gotten three commends. I've gotten none. Ive been in parties that required very little healing. I've been in some that required every healing ability in my toolkit, and ONLY healing, to clear. It's all situational.

But saying that healers should ONLY use healing spells while in group duties, that I disagree with and will argue against until there's a fundamental change to the way this game plays.

I go into every single duty expecting to DPS. Why wouldn't I? The game design up until this point has shown me time and time again that I will have plenty of time to do so, and I've yet to be proven wrong. Sometimes it's far less than I expected at first. Sometimes I make a mistake and someone dies. Sometimes someone else make a mistake and doesn't get healed in time. Sometimes we wipe! But it's okay. We take it in. Learn from it. Get better. Grow.

People can see when you're actually making an effort, or when you're just standing there letting GCDs go to waste because nobody's health bar has moved enough in 30 seconds for you to cast a healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I don't think people care much if you try to play it safe in learning parties..

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Yes well done :) Admire you for that but it takes me a little longer to learn fights themselves. Once ive learned the fights its good. Muscle memory or whatever it is. Then to time dps, and think different is another set of skills. All needs practice. I havent found the community as tolerent as you say though, dont mean here, mean random groups. Not here to cry about it though , Its if Ive experienced it others have too. Btw I stick to what I said, dont like dps being forced on me but while its there Ill try. Would like option thats all

if more healers in FF say nope, im here to heal & only heal, then all this bs about doing 2 jobs would pass & i for one am more than happy to be a part of this revolution.

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Originally Posted by imjustahealer

if more healers in FF say nope, im here to heal & only heal, then all this bs about doing 2 jobs would pass & i for one am more than happy to be a part of this revolution.

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The fact that you seriously think you're "doing two jobs" by making use of the skills that are given to you says all that needs to be said, really.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

The fact that you seriously think you're "doing two jobs" by making use of the skills that are given to you says all that needs to be said, really.

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come the revolution, brother!!

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

So, out of curiosity, does anyone, from either side of the healer DPS coin, have a direct quote from the Dev team indicating that you're either "only suppose to heal" or "you must use your DPS abilities". I ask because I don't recall the Dev's being so forthcoming about this information.

Any discussion regarding the dev's intent can easily be warped into a pro-DPS or anti-DPS way which leads me to believe the Dev's are happy leaving healer's with the choice or not of expanding past their own defined roles.

And in the case of a healer, your primary role is to mend:

https://i.imgur.com/NawXEHz.png

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The next few lines from MoM also states something along the lines of, "When no healing is needed, it can be useful to weave in offensive spells." The game never states that your job is to DPS, but it does encourage it.

The only thing the devs have stated to my recollection is that healer DPS is not factored into clears for any content in this game. From HoN to the hardest raid.

A healer can look at this statement two ways: 1. As long as I heal and cleanse, we will get the clear. Or 2. Every single offensive spell I cast helps the entire group as it is damage that is unaccounted for when the devs designed the instance.

Tl; Dr The game makes it clear that if you're capable of more, then at least try to do more.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

The fact that you seriously think you're "doing two jobs" by making use of the skills that are given to you says all that needs to be said, really.

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I see that point very clearly and also why you want it to remain, but do you understand that some only like to heal? That dpsing is 2 roles for some, me included. Can you also see the points some find it too hard or stressful, and it is not as easy as some find it. I wonder how many people on this game use all of their skills anyway, but its so easy to pick on the healer. This has already been said though, please dont pick on healers for only wanting to heal. Its how we enjoy ourselves and thats why we play. value the fact that healing is keeping people alive, and to others that think its easy to heal and its a lazy option you can always go healer yourselves

If the OP and many of the heal only defenders put as much effort into learning how to dps while they heal as they have defending their stance about not wanting to use more than half their skill sets on the forums there would be an army of over powered dpsing healers in this game.

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Originally Posted by imjustahealer

if more healers in FF say nope, im here to heal & only heal, then all this bs about doing 2 jobs would pass & i for one am more than happy to be a part of this revolution.

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It really wouldn't. There will always be competition for spaces, and willingly ignoring half your job will just make people more likely to kick as they know there are tons of people who will try as hard as they are. Having someone come out and pretty much admit "I'm going to press 3 or 4 buttons while you lot can put the effort in" would help get rid of the dead weight sharpish.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

If I remember correctly, didn't you attempt Alex Savage with a group, and refused as a SCH to dps, and switched from SCH main to another healing job?

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Iirc, she was kicked for having extremely low dps for a sch. I don't remember which thread, but she came in one of those older "omg healers have to dps???" threads complaining about it. People looked at her parses on fflogs and I think the problem is that she doesn't really learn when damage comes, she just waits for people to take damage then heals them more than she needs to. On the few occasions where she did contribute to dps, she rarely used cleric stance, if at all.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Yes well done :) Admire you for that but it takes me a little longer to learn fights themselves. Once ive learned the fights its good. Muscle memory or whatever it is. Then to time dps, and think different is another set of skills. All needs practice. I havent found the community as tolerent as you say though, dont mean here, mean random groups. Not here to cry about it though , Its if Ive experienced it others have too. Btw I stick to what I said, dont like dps being forced on me but while its there Ill try. Would like option thats all

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I also run with randoms and have never gotten hate for not doing much DPS as I learn, but that could absolutely be a data center difference. The option to not DPS is there, it's just something that is not desired by most players, and player mentality is not something anyone will be able to change easily. SE leaves the option open for healers to DPS, and that's that. It's their content design that leads players to DPS during the large amounts of downtime in duties.

If they make the game more healing intensive, leading to less downtime, I wouldn't complain, as I would have to heal more to keep up. As it is now, though, I like challenging myself by adding in as much DPS as I can. Taking away cleric stance in duties without changing the amount of healing necessary would lead to outrage and boredom for many healers, so I really don't see this as an answer. I for one would probably stop healing in duties if this happened - just too much downtime.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

It really wouldn't. There will always be competition for spaces, and willingly ignoring half your job will just make people more likely to kick as they know there are tons of people who will try as hard as they are. Having someone come out and pretty much admit "I'm going to press 3 or 4 buttons while you lot can put the effort in" would help get rid of the dead weight sharpish.

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Oh yes this is a work I almost forgot that people come here to enjoy themselves. Dont you enjoy your play then? Is it a job, like in the real sense? So every moment your in an instance its like work to you? This isnt my work I come here to enjoy myself and even enjoy carrying people through content

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Oh yes this is a work I almost forgot that people come here to enjoy themselves. Dont you enjoy your play then? Is it a job, like in the real sense? So every moment your in an instance its like work to you? This isnt my work I come here to enjoy myself and even enjoy carrying people through content

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As I said, you're free to carry your lazy attitude. Just don't expect people to put up with it. They haven't already in your case. You have openly admitted that you don't want to try to put effort in because "it's not a real job".

I also love how you equate putting effort into something as being like real life work. Yep, when I put effort into standing up, man, that's just like the shit job I do.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

For sure and I agree, and I am pretty much the same view. I always do whatever I can. and would have liked healing dps to remain optioanal according to what healer thinks is best, but its not optional any more its being forced on healers to do and gone too far that way. You say you would want to be replaced if you cant dps? Something wrong there but Ill let people work it out.

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I am more a "never compromise" I will always vote no to Kick a healer if the sole reason is the healer not doing dmg
and when i play my healer, i will only do dmg when i see comfortable
until the day dev force us to do so
i dont mind ppl in DF asking healer to do dmg nicely
but if they want to kick a healer for not doing dmg, i will be the NO between them, and if i m the healer, they are more than welcome to find a replacement
but of coz, those high end raid would be another story

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Iirc, she was kicked for having extremely low dps for a sch. I don't remember which thread, but she came in one of those older "omg healers have to dps???" threads complaining about it. People looked at her parses on fflogs and I think the problem is that she doesn't really learn when damage comes, she just waits for people to take damage then heals them more than she needs to. On the few occasions where she did contribute to dps, she rarely used cleric stance, if at all.

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700 dps, on the last parse posted to be exact after I was trained. No one asked me to dps before then, it was my first static and mostly my first regular experience of proper raiding before then. Never stood around my healing was about 30% overheal I think but my ACTIVE time was around 95% the other healeranted to dps. Whole group was learning at the time :) Just want to add here that I thought you were tolerent of people learning. Did you know this static was just meant to be a casual fun group? I was only told a week before I was kicked that they wanted me to dps. And truly was not aware that real raiders only tolerate dps sch

*sigh* I have mentioned this already once before in another similar thread but....

So SE publishes an official FFXIV magazine in Japan, and the issue for patch 3.4 came with the Eorzea Job Change Guide for healers (these are aimed at players that already have some experience with the other 2 roles and want to try out healing). And this is a page from it:

http://i.imgur.com/W18h9ho.jpg

the header for this page says:
Healers can DPS too
There is a merit to DPS'ing as a healer since fights will end faster. However, don't forget about about your primary role, so slowly get used to partaking in DPS'ing
it then has the following points:
1. look for a change to DPS
2. get used to cleric stance when DPS'ing
3. remember your DoTs when DPS'ing
4. don't forget your primary role

So yes, learning when and how to stance dance is part of a good healer in FFXIV and SE agrees. So stop looking for excuses to be lazy in group content.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

As I said, you're free to carry your lazy attitude. Just don't expect people to put up with it. They haven't already in your case. You have openly admitted that you don't want to try to put effort in because "it's not a real job".

I also love how you equate putting effort into something as being like real life work. Yep, when I put effort into standing up, man, that's just like the shit job I do.

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Errm think Ive said in several posts that I do when I can. But you have such a bad attitude about it, I was just geuinely wondering if you enjoy anything really. I mean, take a chill pill and let others breath, Im suffocating on your lack of tolerence towards others

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

I am more a "never compromise" I will always vote no to Kick a healer if the sole reason is the healer not doing dmg

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You clearly haven't seen the healers I have. My favorite one so far was in an expert roulette, I had a sch who did absolutely nothing at all except spam adlo and stoneskin on me the moment my health went lower than 100%. And, idk what it is about ARF, but every single time I get that dungeon without queuing with a healer, the healer I get will start spamming heals on me regardless of whether I have 90% or 100% hp. Sometimes they realize they don't need to heal me and just stand there doing nothing, other times they continue healing me when I don't need it. Idk why but some people here seem to think that's acceptable play.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The next few lines from MoM also states something along the lines of, "When no healing is needed, it can be useful to weave in offensive spells." The game never states that your job is to DPS, but it does encourage it.

The only thing the devs have stated to my recollection is that healer DPS is not factored into clears for any content in this game. From HoN to the hardest raid.

A healer can look at this statement two ways: 1. As long as I heal and cleanse, we will get the clear. Or 2. Every single offensive spell I cast helps the entire group as it is damage that is unaccounted for when the devs designed the instance.

Tl; Dr The game makes it clear that if you're capable of more, then at least try to do more.

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That's pretty much exactly what I'm aiming for with my post.

In the end, to me it's important to teach healers that there are opportunities to optimize their GCD usage and that usually revolves around slotting DPS spells between their heals. But threatening to kick them for not bringing more to the table than they're suppose to? That's just asinine. Likewise, if a healer won't take the opportunity to expand past their role and cross their arms and threaten to kick you for speaking out against them? That's also just asinine.

I'm just really tired of the animosity from both ends of the spectrum. It's not always like that but there's enough stubbornness and ignorance on both sides of the coin that makes me just want to throw my hands up at it.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

That's pretty much exactly what I'm aiming for with my post.

In the end, to me it's important to teach healers that there are opportunities to optimize their GCD usage and that usually revolves around slotting DPS spells between their heals. But threatening to kick them for not bringing more to the table than they're suppose to? That's just asinine. Likewise, if a healer won't take the opportunity to expand past their role and cross their arms and threaten to kick you for speaking out against them? That's also just asinine.

I'm just really tired of the animosity from both ends of the spectrum. It's not always like that but there's enough stubbornness and ignorance on both sides of the coin that makes me just want to throw my hands up at it.

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I feel the same. I understand both sides and wish a compromise could be found. I understand why there are those who frown upon wasted downtime from their healers, but can't comprehend why any would get so upset about it to either initiate a vote kick, or abandon the duty themselves. I would only vote kick a healer if they are not performing their primary role whether they are or are not dpsing.

For the heals only crew, I completely understand why it can be difficult to go into cleric. If they say they are worried, nervous, personally feel they suck at stance dancing, and not comfortable, it ends right there. But to outright refuse because they are queued as a "healer" tells me they are deliberately ignoring half of their support tools. Healers in xiv are designed to support the group through heals, cleanses, shields, AND damage. Their compromise is to at least try instead of going AFK, or jumping around. That is insulting to the rest of the group.

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Originally Posted by imjustahealer

if more healers in FF say nope, im here to heal & only heal, then all this bs about doing 2 jobs would pass & i for one am more than happy to be a part of this revolution.

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Assuming the current difficulty didn't change. If healers refused to DPS, people would start replacing them with Black Mages and Summoner. Tanks have such absurd mitigation, the occasional baby heal would be fine. Better that than dragging someone along who just stands still. Fortunately, very few healers aren't willing to improve come Savage.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

700 dps, on the last parse posted to be exact after I was trained. No one asked me to dps before then, it was my first static and mostly my first regular experience of proper raiding before then. Never stood around my healing was about 30% overheal I think but my ACTIVE time was around 95% the other healeranted to dps. Whole group was learning at the time :) Just want to add here that I thought you were tolerent of people learning. Did you know this static was just meant to be a casual fun group? I was only told a week before I was kicked that they wanted me to dps. And truly was not aware that real raiders only tolerate dps sch

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This is a flat out lie. I checked your parses just now and neither Scholar nor White Mage boasts above 200. On your server, 700 would place you at 57th percentile against Refurbisher and 52nd on Lamebricks. If you were pulling that high, you wouldn't be nearly as vehemently against DPSing as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I feel the same. I understand both sides and wish a compromise could be found. I understand why there are those who frown upon wasted downtime from their healers, but can't comprehend why any would get so upset about it to either initiate a vote kick, or abandon the duty themselves. I would only vote kick a healer if they are not performing their primary role whether they are or are not dpsing.

Their compromise is to at least try instead of going AFK, or jumping around. That is insulting to the rest of the group.

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Compromise good word, should have used it myself, but do you see anything remotely compromising about some of the posts here? Saying that its interested me and now Im wondering how a compromise could be applied, any suggestions? And I mean, changes to game play cos some wont compromise if its up to them. Oh and must reply to that person calling me a liar do you realise I was talking of story mode? and I categorically am not lying cos I saw it with my own eyes but it may not have been posted publically, oh and my percentile is 63 just checked :)

Speaking of compromise, you don't even have to DPS all the time really. On my WHM, my three dots and no other dps actions account for about 800 dps at full uptime on a boss. If you just keep your dots up with three globals, you're doing soooooooooooo much more than if you physic'd three times on a near full hp tank, or just stood there for three globals.

But a healer not DPSing is kinda like a DPS class only kinda doing their rotation. You would be mad at a BLM for only using ice spells and doing less than half the DPS they should be doing and making the dungeon take 30 minutes instead of 15, so people have a right to be mad at a healer who can't put in the *slightest* bit of effort into DPS.

Also, SCH specific, Eos can solo heal literally every dungeon in the game. Not dpsing on scholar specifically is the most gigantic waste. The only time Eos can't solo heal is when tanks pull 2-3 packs, which is frequent, but do you know why they pull 2-3 packs? Because damage is so low that they can. Same reason why healers DPS.

Is it really that hard to multitasking? .
Tanks do it, An like 90% of healers I find in DF do it too. I do it myself, most of the post agree on dps an heal.
Maybe is time you look yourself in a mirror an....
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You know what... forget it ..
just keep doing what you are doing.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Errm think Ive said in several posts that I do when I can. But you have such a bad attitude about it, I was just geuinely wondering if you enjoy anything really. I mean, take a chill pill and let others breath, Im suffocating on your lack of tolerence towards others

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and I'm suffocating on your laziness and your desire to force that on others. You should never force yourself on others, that's a sickening attitude. You're right, I do lack tolerance for people who try to force themselves on others. You have argued that it's "not a job" that it's "my sub" and that you can be as lazy as you want. Then you say that you do try. I'm calling bull.

You've ignored posts that blatantly state that SE know, and have encouraged DPS, on purpose. What is the point in a thread where you, as OP, ignore all evidence that goes against what you say? Right on this page there's an official magazine screenshot saying that healers should weave damage in. No word there from you. They nerfed the accuracy in dungeons so healers could do damage. Nothing there. Fact they don't remove Cleric in dungeons, when we know the feature is there? Nothing.

People trying to respond to you in an honest way are pissing in the wind.

You even ignore that people aren't against healers who TRY. You wheel out the same arguments as if we've never rebutted them. You are intellectually dishonest .

Healer is both Heal AND DPS(priority to keep people alive first, but intention should be to weave damage in). You do not have double the buttons to press compared to a DPS or Tank playing their role properly. It fits perfectly. I'm glad people have wised up to the fact they can remove these players who expect carries. I'll calm down when these players stop feeling entitled to be in an instance with people who don't want them.

I do not do savage because I don't think I'm capable of it. I do not feel entitled to do it and for others to carry. If I play badly then I feel bad for having the team carry me (sense of shame), and I don't feel like I earnt the right to call something a victory. This spurs me to try harder. It seems that the sense of shame is missing in a lot of people, and people are happy to wallow in the mud rather than aim high. We have people who are actively dragging people down to that level. This has the long term effect of lowering the overall skill level of the community.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Compromise good word, should have used it myself, but do you see anything remotely compromising about some of the posts here? Saying that its interested me and now Im wondering how a compromise could be applied, any suggestions? And I mean, changes to game play cos some wont compromise if its up to them. Oh and must reply to that person calling me a liar do you realise I was talking of story mode? and I categorically am not lying cos I saw it with my own eyes but it may not have been posted publically, oh and my percentile is 63 just checked :)

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You're shifting the goal posts again. The person quoted referenced your original post and the Savage static that kicked you for apparent low DPS. At no point in your response did you mention story mode until I called out your parse numbers. Regardless, good, you are DPSing. So why still defend this idea healers should be able to stand around because "it's their play style"?

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Originally Posted by Dsync

You should never force yourself on others, that's a sickening attitude. You're right, I do lack tolerance for people who try to force themselves on others.

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And yet you expect people to play the way you want them to even if they don't want to. There is a word for this my friend. That word is hypocrit.

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Originally Posted by craized

And yet you expect people to play the way you want them to even if they don't want to. There is a word for this my friend. That word is hypocrit.

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I've said over and over again that people can play how they want. Just not on my time. I'll leave, or the party will vote kick. No one is forcing them to do anything. They can easily find another party to join (same goes for me if I don't like the way the party plays) that'll put up with them. It's not like they have no other option. You and Feyona want to force us to accept lazy behaviour. Gosh, reading is really hard for some.

We've had concerted guilt tripping (another thread) that people should stay out of an obligation to the party, despite people like you two saying one of those people doesn't have the same obligation as everyone else. You encourage people to be sub-standard. I don't.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

I've said over and over again that people can play how they want. Just not on my time. I'll leave, or the party will vote kick. No one is forcing them to do anything. They can easily find another party to join that'll put up with them. It's not like they have no other option. You and Feyona want to force us to accept lazy behaviour. Gosh, reading is really hard for some.

We've had concerted guilt tripping (another thread) that people should stay out of an obligation to the party, despite people like you two saying one of those people doesn't have the same obligation as everyone else. You encourage people to be sub-standard. I don't.

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When you chose to a roulette its random. You should accept people play styles or simply form your own premade groups of people that support your play style. You can call and justify it all you want, but you saying People have to play to my style or GTFO makes you a hypocrite. Its that simple.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

and when i play my healer, i will only do dmg when i see comfortable
until the day dev force us to do so

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"And when I play my Machinist, I will not use my MP turret until a direct quote from the developers saying I'm forced to do so." You do realise how ridiculous that argument is? Basically, you're saying you're refusing to be useful to your group unless you're forced to do so. What a great team player attitude!

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Originally Posted by Aniond

When you chose to a roulette its random. You should accept people play styles or simply form your own premade groups of people that support your play style. You can call and justify it all you want, but you saying People have to play to my style or GTFO makes you a hypocrite. Its that simple.

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Yes it's random, and people don't have to put up with a person who's not pulling their weight in that random group. Another person who thinks we should be forced to take people who can't be bothered. They DON'T have to play to my style. What is it with you anti-dps people and your reading comprehension?

If you want to play to half the ability of your job knowingly then YOU should create a premade. Works both ways.

If I leave = They can carry on regardless
If they are kicked = They can rejoin straight away and likely get a group that'll put up with them

Please point to the part where they are being forced.

At no point has any one here called for them to be harassed in-game. We've had people saying that people should ask nicely if they'd dps, but given that a good portion of the time that'll get taken negatively, most people don't even want to ask, so they leave or kick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Please point to the part where they are being forced.

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The point where they are forced to find another group with the possibility of a long queu because you aren't willing to accept a differing view point regardless of the fact the difference it will make to you is negligible, and in fact would go out of your own way and lose half an hour on a dungeon all because of your own stuck up ideals.

They "choose" to find another group.

and "accepting" to you lot means "forced upon and can't complain because it's my sub and you have to put up with me because you signed an imaginary contract on clicking roulette". I did not sign up to be harassed by lazy players. I'm happy to be stuck up if it means not encouraging people to be bad. I'd rather be stuck up than drag people into being poor. 30 minutes I can find many other things to do.

If everyone in the party played to the level of a 'heal only' healer then the difference wouldn't be close to negligible. Why do healers get a free ride?