Lore Book Revelations

My hometown had a castle on a hill that was, as the story went, shipped over brick by brick from Europe when it was inherited by someone who was rather pleased to suddenly have a castle, but not-so pleased at it not being in California. True or not, it makes for a good story, and I suppose it's not impossible.

But I can't imagine the current Ul'dah being architecturally identical to the original, either way. For one thing, the engineering is far too modern.

Question for the people with the Lore book:

How old is Varis Zos Galvus? Cause a Famitsu interview from Fanfest seems to be suggesting that Zenos is Varis's son.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Question for the people with the Lore book:

How old is Varis Zos Galvus? Cause a Famitsu interview from Fanfest seems to be suggesting that Zenos is Varis's son.

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He's 46 years old according to the lore book.

Not quite lore book, but nice revelations here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/

Zenos is the biological son of the current Emperor. I suspected as much but nice to see confirmation this soon

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Originally Posted by Theodric

He's 46 years old according to the lore book.

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Sorry to echo the conversation I've already started elsewhere but that's really interesting to me because up to now the Garlean Empire has appeared to be, with certain strict limits, at least *somewhat* meritocratic, especially compared to the other known nations, but if we're translating that correctly that opens up two possibilities;

1) Varis had a kid while ridiculously young.

2) Zenos himself is ridiculously young, mid-twenties at most, at least for someone who's just been put in charge of Ala Mhigo and, by extension, the western and most-active front of imperial expansion. Arguably Varis may have chosen him because after the civil war he's in a position where he can only give power to those he trusts absolutely but it may explain the resentment and attempts at undermining that Regula van Hydrus has had to deal with.

Varis really dips hard into the nepotism to keep his power base it seems. At the same time I'd say it's hard to determine what's the norm for an empire that's only into its second emperor.

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Originally Posted by Cybylt

Varis really dips hard into the nepotism to keep his power base it seems. At the same time I'd say it's hard to determine what's the norm for an empire that's only into its second emperor.

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Regula rose to power through merit alone as revealed during the Sophia quests in 3.4. It's reasonable to assume that Zenos did as well - especially since he's heavily implied to be a major antagonist during 4.0. To qualify as one he'd need to be a genuine threat. That he's the Emperor's son and Regula is Varis' best friend likely plays into it to some extent, sure, but not to the extent that many may lead themselves to believe.

The repercussions of this will definitely be interesting. I will be curious to see the relations between father and son. If they are good and we end up killing Zenos the fallout could be major. If they are bad we might be dealing with potential internal conflicts in Garlemald. They have said that Zenos would be different to the people we fought before.

I hope Regula survives 3.5. I think he hasn't really had a chance to reach is potential as a character and it would seem like quite a waste for him to end after just the Warring Triad quests.

It's hard to imagine how Zenos could be 'different', especially since 3.4 dropped a line about how the new guy in charge of Ala Mhigo is much less merciful than Gaius. I could see that statement involving bias, however, especially since it came from the Ala Mhigan Resistance who aren't exactly known for their pristine morality. Personally I'm hoping that he remains loyal to his homeland and people first and foremost but isn't against working alongside the Warrior of Light and Scions if it means dealing with a bigger threat/reaching a compromise. I have a feeling he's going to be either the 'Gabranth' or 'Vayne' of 4.0 given the heavy inspiration that will seemingly be taken from FFXII since he leads the XIIth Legion.

I, too, would like to see Regula survive beyond 3.5. I prefer him to Nero - Regula is less devious and more honourable and most importantly he's actually concerned with serving his homeland and people. Nero strikes me as the type who would defect in a heartbeat to save his own skin.

As an aside, I'm curious as to who the Emperor's wife is and whether or not she is still alive. There's an offhand comment in the lore book regarding the Imperial Palace in Garlemald - stating that the Emperor's wife resides there. Encountering her at some point would be rather interesting.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I, too, would like to see Regula survive beyond 3.5. I prefer him to Nero - Regula is less devious and more honourable and most importantly he's actually concerned with serving his homeland and people. Nero strikes me as the type who would defect in a heartbeat to save his own skin.

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I think that the events of Crystal Tower showed that Nero doesn't have much concern for his own skin. What he is going to turn against Garlemald for is if he isn't made Nero nan Scaeva within the next five years. Full-on, Bwa-ha-ha, "You Fools Doubted My Genius!", Mad Science Breakdown.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

I think that the events of Crystal Tower showed that Nero doesn't have much concern for his own skin. What he is going to turn against Garlemald for is if he isn't made Nero nan Scaeva within the next five years. Full-on, Bwa-ha-ha, "You Fools Doubted My Genius!", Mad Science Breakdown.

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Fair point. I do find myself wondering if the events of the Crystal Tower are going to tie into the MSQ's somehow or if it's going to continue to be a side story that's disconnected from everything else. I suppose it may be as simple as a slight dialogue change with Nero based on whether or not it's been completed. Such as how Alisae's dialogue changed depending on whether or not the player in question had completed the Coil storyline.

At any rate the next Live Letter is due on 25th November so we won't have too long to wait until we have more information to discuss.

With Eureka announced, I'm hoping it becomes something a little more concrete. Doga and Unei have boss forms we never got to see, and I find it really hard to believe that Nero, as a Garlean scientist, didn't realize G'raha Tia's potential as a second Nael van Darnus. There has to be some reason they've delayed his TT card this long.

If wishes were fishes, huh?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Where was the original Ul'dah located? I can't imagine they literally moved the entire city, brick for brick.

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Looking at old lore on the King of the Spring, as well as the new stuff from the lore book, I think we can best estimate Ul'dah's original location was somewhere southeast of the Burning Wall, on the edge of Paglth'an. This might be why the Ul'dahns and the Amalj'aa have such a long history of war and violence between the two.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg49

Year 1162
Lalawefu takes measures to secure a stable water source, and is hailed by his people as the "King of Springs". The act deals a serious blow to Ul'dah, as Sil'dih's water supply is diverted from upstream of their sister sultanate's own reservoir.

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The biggest river flowing south out of the Twelveswood and Paglth'an, and dividing into tributaries that stretch across much of Thanalan, is the Yugr'am River. Supposing Sil'dih diverted the Yugr'am's flow into the direction it is today and away from Broken Water to the south, it could be used as a rough indicator for where Ul'dah was situated at the time.

As to the how they moved the city, brick by brick, I think the answer might be the enslaved hecatoncheires:

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Originally Posted by Copperbell Mines

Unfortunately, it was not riches the powder kegs uncovered, but sheer terror, for when the smoke cleared, out poured an army of raging giants from the darkest recesses of the mines. The hecatoncheires - thralls of the lost Thorne Dynasty - were, at last, free from their lightless prison, three hundred years of hate fueling their madness.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg50

Year 1270
Ul'dah relocates its capital atop of the ruins of the fallen Sil'dih.

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Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Eorzea pg50

Year 1272
The enslaved hecatoncheire giants of Copperbell Mines revolt against their masters when the enchantments on their helms wear off, and the miners force a cave-in of the lowest depths to seal the giants within. The mine is shuttered under the pretense that its veins have run barren.

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Originally Posted by Hecatoncheires

Similar to the giants, the hecatoncheires were also once thralls of the gigas. Some three hundred years ago, however, history tells that these gigants were sold as slaves to the Thorne Dynasty. Their monstrous strength controlled by means of ensorcelled helms, the hecatoncheires were forced to toil with pick and hammer in Copperbell Mines.

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Now, granted, the only mention of them revolves around their mining operations in Copperbell, but it's not hard to imagine that these gigants didn't have other uses. The timing of their enslavement coinciding with the relocation of a major city is too much for me to ignore.

Well, with a more straight up translation from Gamer Escape, it sounds like Zenos is going to be different as in he is such an extreme bastard that no one will actually like him. Villianous ass through and through. I guess that is true. Most villians we have dealt with have something of a logic or argument to their viewpoint that allows you to see how they might think their side of things is justified. Zenos on the other hands sounds like he will just be an evil sadist and all round terrible person. For FF14 that is actually a somewhat different villain to have.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Well, with a more straight up translation from Gamer Escape, it sounds like Zenos is going to be different as in he is such an extreme bastard that no one will actually like him. Villianous ass through and through. I guess that is true. Most villians we have dealt with have something of a logic or argument to their viewpoint that allows you to see how they might think their side of things is justified. Zenos on the other hands sounds like he will just be an evil sadist and all round terrible person. For FF14 that is actually a somewhat different villain to have.

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Have . . . have they not noticed how many fangirls Charibert has? Zenos had better be amazingly ugly or this is going to backfire spectacularly.

I'm a bit disappointed. I was hoping, from what got said at Fanfest, that we were going to roll-up and then the remaining Ala Mhigans who stuck it out would have gone "no, no actually we're . . . okayish? I mean, it's no picnic but it's better than another Theodoric."

Actually given what Theodoric was like maybe that's going to happen anyway.

That's...disappointing if true. Especially when they made a big deal at Fan Fest about how the situation in Ala Mhigo is supposedly going to be 'morally grey' and will deal with the fact that not all Ala Mhigans may want to be liberated.

Unless, of course, Xenos is disliked by Garleans and Ala Mhigans alike working beneath him and that builds a bridge between them? It still doesn't do any FFXII reference justice though - neither Vayne nor Gabranth were completely evil.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That's...disappointing if true. Especially when they made a big deal at Fan Fest about how the situation in Ala Mhigo is supposedly going to be 'morally grey' and will deal with the fact that not all Ala Mhigans may want to be liberated.

Unless, of course, Xenos is disliked by Garleans and Ala Mhigans alike working beneath him and that builds a bridge between them? It still doesn't do any FFXII reference justice though - neither Vayne nor Gabranth were completely evil.

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If they're going to go full-on FF12 maybe it'll be the Larsa analogue who'll work with us?

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Originally Posted by FJerome

If they're going to go full-on FF12 maybe it'll be the Larsa analogue who'll work with us?

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Regula would have worked well for that - but by the sounds of the interview and the fact that it states we're not going to learn too much about him it seems like he's going to die as I feared. I'm going to try and be optimistic but I fear they're set on making Garlemald a generic evil Empire after all and that the only 'good' Garleans will be defectors (ugh) or just killed off for drama and tragedy.

Alphinaud has effectively become 'Larsa' at this point too. So a 'Gabranth' or 'Drace' would be a better fit for a Garlean ally.

I just...don't think I can stomach an expansion based around Ala Mhigans being praised left, right and centre. I really hope there's more to all this and they're not planning on giving Ilberd the 'Ysayle' treatment and then not bothering to do anything with Garlemald to lessen it's perceived bad nature.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I just...don't think I can stomach an expansion based around Ala Mhigans being praised left, right and centre. I really hope there's more to all this and they're not planning on giving Ilberd the 'Ysayle' treatment and then not bothering to do anything with Garlemald to lessen it's perceived bad nature.

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(Man, should we spin this off into a 4.0 story speculation thread? It's not really about the Lore Book anymore)

I think from the way the story is going, the increased emphasis on the what the Beast Tribes are suffering, the fact that retaking Ala Mhigo would encourage rebellion in the rest of the Empire, I suspect that the good Garleans will continue to be defectors but they wouldn't be people who would have defected under Galvus. I doubt Varis has entirely purged the Empire of the people who supported his uncle and his more moderate view-point, there's probably quite a few officers who think the Empire's expansion itself is justified by the peace and order it brings but are now worried that's all in jeopardy because the wrong man's won the throne.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

mind sharing some of the cool MCH stuff, if you don't mind?

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Apologies for not responding sooner.

Machinist Stuff:

Limit Break is called Satellite Beam. Uses a "crystal drive unit" so I'm guessing it's meant to be a device that soaks up aether as the battle goes on and can be activated once it has a sufficient amount.

Ricochet uses small Ishgardian Steel plates cast out (to specific points I assume) as reflectors to bounce a shot between targets.

The tech itself for Machinist came about when Stephanivien de Halillenarte (age 30) decided to mix the magitek that had begun to use with the help of Garlond Ironworks (via a contract for "technological exchange" made with Jessie Baler, the Deputy President of GI) with aetherology. Key to that tech is the aetherotransformer, created by Stephanivien.

The side-apron tool pouch of the Machinist's attire carries the transformer, ammo, and other gadgets used.

The firearm Ferdinand uses a "wind crystal-pressurized cartridge" instead of Firesand. Peddled at market as a priceless antique to recoup high construction costs as the design was seen as overly ambitious.

Actual antique, the Pre-Imperial Garlean Revolver was the first to use a cylindrical magazine. Exquisitely decorated revolvers often awarded to those whose rank gained them the title "tol" or higher. This particular model was basically a museum piece kept by the Sharlayans, which is why it can be found in the Great Gubal Library.

Peacemaker - of Allagan make and found at Silvertear Falls, uses lightning crystals to increase a shot's initial velocity.

Flipping through the Lore Book, I just noticed that Fourchenault Leveilleur not only has an entry but also an in-game character model.

Does this mean he's going to be in 3.5? Can we hit him up for the baby-sitting money he owes us?

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Flipping through the Lore Book, I just noticed that Fourchenault Leveilleur not only has an entry but also an in-game character model.

Does this mean he's going to be in 3.5? Can we hit him up for the baby-sitting money he owes us?

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I don't know about you, but where I live that's not a cheap industry, and 3 YEARS of babysitting would make us gillionaires in an instant.

I was very excited about Fourchenault's picture (and Cessair's was a surprise too), but I don't think Alphinaud and Alisaie are categorized as children by Eorzean standards :P

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Originally Posted by Rocl

I was very excited about Fourchenault's picture (and Cessair's was a surprise too), but I don't think Alphinaud and Alisaie are categorized as children by Eorzean standards :P

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They're canonically adults under Sharlayan law but who's to say what the age of majority is across the rest of Eorzea? I'm sure if we asked very nicely the Ishgardian Parliament would see the wisdom of upping theirs a few years.

(Hells, I'm sure if we asked very nicely the Ishgardian Parliament would declare Spriggan Appreciation Day if we wanted it.)

But the possiblity of Fourchenault showing up in Eorzea at all seems rather ominous, given how Sharlayan is traditionally isolationist and he's one of their leaders. Is he just coming as a father or is he coming as a representative of the Forum? And if so, what do they want?

My reaction to seeing Cessair's picture was mostly "I am pretty sure that is not a Lalafell". I mean, we already knew that was pretty clearly not a Lalafell name but a lot of people were still strongly attached to the idea of Mhach being a Lalafellin civilisation and were pretty happy when it turned out that the Dunesfolk are Mhachi descendants.

It now begs the question if all the other Mhachi just dumped them over the side of the ship before they sailed off with Nyunkrepf.

An Alternate History of the Black Shroud; Or; Marcette Manne, Your Gridanian Bias is Showing.

So, one of the things that frustrated me about the Lore Book was how little it covered about cultures in the Black Shroud that weren't Gridania.

Let's start off which Amdapor, which . . . doesn't actually have anything to do with this, which is interesting in its own right because it looks like it wasn't an Elezen culture after all;

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Originally Posted by Page 32, The Ancient City of Amdapor

At the dawn of the Fifth Astral Era, a group of Hyur arrived in what is now the South Shroud. The area in which they settled was an open plain interspersed with massive outcrops of light-colored rock, distinctly bereft of the thick forest cover now associated with the region. The abundance of stone allowed the Hyur to erect exceptionally sturdy structures, and by the year 300, central Aldenard had transformed into the bustling city of Amdapor.

The people of Amdapor attempted to commune with the enigmatic elementals of the Black Shroud, that they might partake in the bounty of the forest. The elementals - ever untrusting of men - declined the interaction with their new neighbors, content with the distance between them. The Amdapori respected this wish and did not forcibly encroach upon the sacred holt, save for the occasional pursuit of quarry during a hunt. It is worth mentioning, however, that the elementals did not entirely shun outsiders during this period; amicable relations were maintained with the Ixali tribes, the elementals allowing them ingress into the Shroud upon deeming the beastmen no threat to the forest's natural balance.

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Anyway, War of the Magi happens, great flood, all that, let's move on.

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Originally Posted by Page 47 - 53, A Chronology of the Sixth Astral Era

ca. 660 - Driven from their home by the Hyuran settlers, whose numbers continue to swell, the Elezen begin to colonize the Black Shroud.

ca. 710 - The Hyur begin to conquer the Black Shroud, leading to territorial contentions with the Elezen.

ca. 740 - The Elezen and the Hyuran settlers of the Black Shroud reconcile their differences, and together build the subterranean city of Gelmorra to protect themselves from the threat of the elementals.

ca. 1020 - The Ixal incur the wrath of the elements and are cast out of the Black Shroud. The tribes migrate to Xelphatol, east of Abalathia's Spire.

ca. 1076 - After much trial and error, the conjurer Jorin successfully communes with the elementals. Talks are held in Peacegarden, and the citizens of Gelmorra are permitted to live in the Black Shroud.

ca. 1077 - The inhabitants of Gelmorra begin construction of the forest city of Gridania. The hamlet of Quarrymill is founded on the site where the stone is cut and harvested for building material.

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That's pretty much the last mention of Gelmorra in the time-line - there's no mention of why the Duskwight who didn't move to Gridania abandon their existing city (and the Palace of the Dead storyline doesn't provide the answers I was hoping for, either).

And what of the Hyur who were living there? Did they all move to the surface? The Encyclopedia is silent on that but . . .

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1322 - The Creeping Death strikes, spreading rapidly among the Hyur of Gridania.

1327 - An alchemist sent from Ul'dah develops a cure for the Creeping Death. Though the spread is contained, the Hyuran population is left decimated by the disease, drastically transforming the racial makeup of the city.

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For further reference the racial breakdown of Gridania, on page 112, gives the population as Midlander Hyur - 40%, Wildwood Elezen - 30%, Duskwight Elezen - 10%, Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te - 10%, Other - 10%.

Presumably those Hyur may largely be newer settlers but it does make me wonder if prior to the plague there were Hyur of Gelmorran descent in the Shroud that exhibited the same racial changes as the Duskwights did.

One more note from the time-line;

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1451 - The citizens of Gridania incur the ire of the elementals of the Black Shroud, awakening the greenwrath. A number of their elderly offer themselves in sacrifice to expunge the woodsin, sparing the people expulsion from the forest.

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The initial Hyur and Elezen incursions into the Shroud, the expulsion of the Ixal and this incident are the only times the elementals are specifically mentioned to have gotten really annoyed. If the Keepers ever did something to anger them, it's not recorded.

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Originally Posted by Page 113, Gridania, History

Blood Between Men

In the latter 7th century of the 7th Astral Era, the second migration of Hyur came upon Eorzea, forcing Elezen from their lands and into the Black Shroud. The elementals looked upon these settlers as intruders, and sought to purge their presence from amongst the trees. Surviving accounts of this period describe chaos; the Elezen lacked knowledge of the elementals' existence and knew not what attacked them. In time, they realized what had befallen their people, and sought respite from the merciless onslaught in the caverns deep beneath the forest. They escaped annihilation - but at the cost of many Elezen lives.
Fifty years later, population growth pushed the Hyur to enter the forest as well. Upon finding people already ensconced underground, they challenged the Elezen for ownership of the habitable caves. Quarrel soon led to conflict, and the two races came to cross blades time and again.

Gelmorra

Though this conflict raged for decades, overtures towards peace had began by around the year 740. Realizing they had a common goal in avoiding the elementals' hostile gaze, the Hyur and Elezen put aside their differences. The two war-weary races sealed a pact, that both might prosper beneath the Twelveswood. The fruit of their alliance was Gelmorra, a great subterranean city. For nearly three centuries, the Elezen and Hyuran labored to expand their home, burrowing between natural caves and shoring up passages with walls of stone. In time, Gelmorra's intricate network of tunnels would come to put any antlings' nest to shame.

Around 1030, however, a great change came over the Twelveswood. Since times of eld, the elementals had allowed the Ixal to live within their forest. Yet suddenly, they cast the beastmen from the Shroud. What caused such radical change in the elementals? The commonly accepted reason is that the Ixal population had grown too great for their area of the forest to support. In enlarging their territory, they cleared new land without the elementals' consent. For this defiance, exile was their reward. When the Gelmorrans learned of this, they realized that a chance was upon them to negociate for land above ground. Those versed in the magic gathered, seeking a way to commune with the elementals through their art.

A New Nation

For a long while, the mages' attempts when unanswered. However, with perserverance came success. After fifty years of effort, they finally succeeded in relaying their wishes to the elementals. On the understanding that the Gelmorrans would defend the forest, the elementals gave them permission to return to the light of day. As a blessing and proof of their accord, they bestowed a glowing light upon Jorin Lightheart, the Huyuran leader of the mages. Thus, the Gelmorrans abandoned the caves, and began building a new home amidst the Jadeite Thick. They christened the new city Gridania.

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Here it specifically states that Gelmorra was abandoned at the time Gridania was founded but if it was, why? Where did the Duskwight go, why would they leave their massive and impressive city for other caves?

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Originally Posted by Page 82, The Elezen, Clans

The two most prominent Elezen clans are the forest-dwelling Wildwood Elezen, who make their home in the Shroud, and the reclusive Duskwight. The former have a long history of cooperation with the Hyur, having jointly formed the nation of Gridania, while the latter have long since eschewed contact with other races to pursue their own path in the shadowy seclusion of Eorzea's deep tunnels and caverns. As such, the Wildwood and Duskwight each consider each other traitors to their race, and tensions between the two clans continue to the present day.

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Given that Hyur-Elezen cooperation actually begun with Gelmorra, this bit seems rather biased towards making the Wildwood look better.

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Originally Posted by Page 83, Duskwight Elezen, Culture

The customs of the subterranean city of Gelmorra are still practiced by the Duskwight to this day, from architectural advances developed to stake out comfortable residences in the dank, humid caves to mystical wards that serve to stave off the fury of the elementals. The Duskwight-fashioned pomanders - urns engraved with mystical glyphs of great power and filled with fragrant herbs - are an art without parallel in the realm. Duskwight cuisine is famous for its use of Mun-Tay beans, a staple food in the subterranean depths, where they grow in abundance with no need for sunlight. That these dishes have come to be considered a Gridanian delicacy is an ironic twist, given the history between the two clans.

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Though on the flip-side it's somewhat odd that Mun-Tay-based cusine would be considered cultural appropriation by Gridania, since they are legitimate descendants of Gelmorra in their own right.

BONUS ROUND - Where do the Keepers of the Moon fit into all this?

Who knows? The Lore Book's most interesting reveal about the Miqo'te was that they had been in Eorzea before the Fifth Astral Era.

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Originally Posted by Page 29: The Calamity of Ice

much of the Bloodborne Sea was frozen solid, on one hand preventing fishing and decimating the population of sea life, but on the other, allowing for the migration of Miqo'te tribes from southern Ilsabard into northern Eorzea - tribes made up of descendants of the very same Miqo'te who were persecuted against and driven from Eorzea almost two millennia earlier.

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However everything after this point spins off into the known story about the Seeker Tribe names and the Eorzean Alphabet (though it's interesting that apparently didn't exist in Allagan times). We have no idea at all of when the Keepers moved into the Black Shroud.

Having some problems with Minfilia's story compared to 1.0 content.

According to Lore Book the Parade Incident that claimed her father's life happened the same year of the Battle of Silvertear Falls. However, Supposedly that happened 5 years ago before the Calamity if you played the Ul'dah stroyline in 1.0. Not only that but you meet Minfilia who states that the Path of the Twelve has been around researching the Echo for 10 years. According to this lore book she founded the Path at age 20 in the year 1570. That would make her 30 years old and its 8 years after the Calamity at that moment and not only that but so did the parade just a few days prior when she's 12. For non legacy players this isn't a big deal but as a Legacy player back all the way to day 1, this is insane.

Didn't most of the 1.0 starting storylines take place in an Echo of ten years prior (the start of 1.0)?

The Battle for Silvertear Skies was 15 years ago (from the start of 2.0), Gauis confirms that in a cutscene that doesn't change depending on Legacy status. 5 years ago was the Calamity.

As an aside, I finally got my Lore Book today :D So I'll be combing over it soon

I haven't played 1.0 but my understanding is that the parts where you meet Minfilia as a 12 year old are during Echo projections into the past. The actual events of 1.0 happen quiet a few years after the Parade Incident. Simply put the WoL in 1.0 used the Echo to unknowingly some how time travel. It would also explain how we appear before Cid in his memories in 2.0 when 2.0 players would have first met him years after he got his goggles.

That said, my understanding was that the actual story in 1.0 was originally all over the place and when they took over Yoshi's team had to kind of try and tack it all together to make it work better. That said, I never played 1.0 so it's second hand for me.

A lot of 1.0 cutscenes were Echo. It wasn't supposed to be obvious to the player other than a very subtle sound effect or two.
I think they planned on it being a much bigger deal and reveal later in the game, for some kind of time jump purpose, but that never happened.

Even back in 1.0 before Yoshi's team they had decided that the echo was not a means of time travel. As Minfilia states. You can interact with things but not change them. The past is set in stone. Case in point, when she has you use your echo to see into her past. Tataru doesn't remember you at all. After 2.0 they changed how the Echo cutscenes are viewed as merely an observer with no corporeal form. And you make another good point with Cid and his Goggles right before you fight Garuda. So Unless SE later reveals that you the Warrior of Light's Echo has the power to not only see but also change the past. Maybe a future Expansion like Wings of the Goddess. We can only hope Koji Fox or someone on the Lore team can explain this.

The Echo is mostly still very much mysterious and we really still know very little about it and its capabilities, particularly in the case of the WoL. From what we have experanced, much of the Ascians abilities come from their own Echo and its a thing they use every well. The WoL however has almost always used the Echo passively or unintentionally. Further, we learn that different people's Echo has different properties such as Kryle's ability to sense Aetheric residue of the soul.

The Blessing of Light is a powerful boon that empowers the WoL but frankly I suspect that the Echo is on par if not even more potentially powerful a tool. We do know that the WoL barely scratches the surface of what his/her gift is capable of, at least not intentionally.

I have a theory that the Minstrel's Song version of trials has to do with different abilities of pre and post cognition going haywire. When we fail a duty, we get a boost because lore-wise what just happened didn't, and we tap more into our hidden power. We can also look into past events and, though not change them, see minor differences in how they could have played out. When the Minstrel triggers the memories of a particularly brutal challenge we previously defeated, we go into the past, but as ourselves, and since our foe was the one defeated it gets a power boost instead!

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Originally Posted by Jonnykit

According to Lore Book the Parade Incident that claimed her father's life happened the same year of the Battle of Silvertear Falls. However, Supposedly that happened 5 years ago before the Calamity if you played the Ul'dah stroyline in 1.0.

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Even before the lore book, we knew the Battle of Silvertear Skies and the Goobbue Parade both took place in the Year 1562, ten years before the Calamity and the year in which we played.

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Originally Posted by Seranelien

Lady Minfilia is one of the few survivors of the Fall of the Keeper—one of the few who remember the horrors of that fateful night, ten years gone.

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Originally Posted by Warburton's Journal

The legacy of Minfilia's father, who perished in the parade incident of 1562, when a goobbue broke free of its magical fetters and ran amok through the streets of Ul'dah. Contains a wealth of stolen imperial research on the primals, as well as other information which has yet to be deciphered.

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We view much of the 1.0 city-state starter storylines via Echo. Anonymoose and Gamerescape have put together a pretty good breakdown of which is which.


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Originally Posted by Jonnykit

Not only that but you meet Minfilia who states that the Path of the Twelve has been around researching the Echo for 10 years.

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I believe you're referring to this quote?

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

Very good. I pray together we can learn more of this gift...for though we have scoured the realm for nigh on ten years, I fear there is still little we understand.

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While the "we" does refer to members of the Path of the Twelve, she doesn't strictly say that the Path itself has been around for ten years, only that its members have been searching for answers for that long- 10 years, aka since many members claimed to have seen a starshower after/during the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

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Originally Posted by Godfrey

I myself was woken ten years ago when I saw me a starshower up in the mountains near Ishgard. Not long after, I started havin' these visions. Once or twice a year is all, mind ye, but it was enough to put the fear in me belly. Afore long, there weren't no one I could trust. 'Twas enough t' drive me wife into the arms of another man. If it weren't fer the Path, the Echo might've killed me. Luckily, it helped me kill someone else first.

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I'm willing to believe its all an echo after watching a video of the last part of Calamity Cometh and the beginning. Noticed that Thancred and the others weren't on the cart before the vision. But what I don't get is the echo is triggered to view Nielle being stabbed after seeing the shattered jewel. An Echo within an Echo? This is getting a bit complicated.

Opening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPZF...FEA28A2BAEAC6C

Calamity Cometh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUJG...AEAC6C&index=8

An Echo within an Echo isn't unheard of in 1.0 iirc, Y'shtola even forces you out of an Echo vision in he 1.0 Limsa arc? It's been ages.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

An Echo within an Echo isn't unheard of in 1.0 iirc.

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Yrc. Each of the opening story arcs end this way. You're in an Echo of 1562, and somehow the Echo works on someone there, but only draws you back slightly further into 1562 in order to make the member of the Circle of Knowing freak the hell out when they come out of it just as the Starshower hits.

Ul'dah: You enter the memory of Minfilia (who is in the 1572 scenes), as she is actually Ascilia (from the 1562 scenes). This happens because you mention Thancred near the Ossuary, and since he's not in Ul'dah at the time, she remembers him and what happened at the Ossuary ten years ago, pulling you into the Echo. When Thancred comes upon the dying Niellefresne and the terrified Ascilia, the girl holds out the broken gem from Heartstrike, which glows as the Echo activates and pulls Echo-Thancred along for the ride as you see the robed figure run Nielle through.

Limsa Lominsa: You enter the memory of Blackburn (who is in the 1572 scenes), as he is actually Emerick (from the 1562 scenes). This happens because he knows you're unraveling the truth about what happened ... and you're currently standing exactly where the Ascian (Travanchet) took the Key (horn) that Sthalmann and Y'shtola were fighting over. Sthalmann only knew that it was an object of great power and he wanted to use it to overthrow the Admiral and protect Limsa in his own way, while Y'shtola just knew that the Ascians wanted it and couldn't let them have it. (Travanchet planned on giving it to the Sahagin to summon Leviathan, but they didn't end up needing it, apparently, because he eventually passed it along to Mide who used it to summon Alexander.) As they squabble, the Echo activates and the Key glows, dragging Echo-Y'sthola along for the ride and showing a vision of Emerick, Merodaulyn, and Sthalmann conspiring to steal the key in the first place.

Gridania: You enter the memory of the Hermit of the Wood (who is in the 1572 scenes), as he is actually Khrimm (from the 1562 scenes). When Khrimm hears that the adventurers being drawn to Gridania "by the forest" are the "Messengers of Nophica", he recalls the 1562 iteration of the same ritual being performed in 1572. The ritual from ten years earlier was quite complicated, politically. Gridania was pretending that its citizens were being claimed as wildlings to funnel covert assistance to the Ala Mhigan Resistance. Khrimm's parents, along with Dunstan, the brother of Khrimm's best friend Fye, were such "Wildlings". Because it hurt Khrimm to see Fye miss her brother so, he tried to burn a hedgetree to prove that the Elementals weren't real, leading to him actually being claimed as a wildling. At the 1562 ritual, Dunstan and Khrimm were both publicly cleansed of woodsin, even though only one really needed it. During the vision of the ritual, the Echo triggers, causing the gem on young Khrimm's mask to glow and drawing Echo-Yda and Echo-Papalymo along for the ride as you see a vision of Khrimm burning the tree in the first place.

In all three events, you see the 1562 starshower (which was publicly seen by everyone as opposed to the private visions people experience when awakening to the Echo), and it leads to the Sharlayans realizing that their mission to forestall the Seventh Umbral Calamity will more than likely end in failure as the Echo has officially sounded. That seems to be the point of the scene - beginning to explain who the Circle of Knowing are, what they were trying to do, and what the real danger to Eorzea is. It's not just war with the Empire - it's primals and Calamity - an Umbral Era.

The Echo-within-an-Echo bugs me a lot, because even though you're seeing deeper into the memory you're already in, it seems to activate on an object in their memory, which is something the Echo never does outside of the CG opening for 1.0 (and the CGs always have a handful of weird errors like that on account of being set in stone a year before the rest of the game; see: the Drowning Wench with an aetheryte in it, the swarm of Hraesvelgrs attacking Ishgard, the male black mage). The Echo is supposed to resonate with other souls. It's possible that perhaps it picks up aetherial traces of memories left on objects, but that's way over-powered fanon-bait for which there is no other precedent for that (yet), so I've chalked it up as inconclusive. After all, it's not like you're entering a different person's memory - you're already resonating with that person's soul, you're just going deeper.

Honestly, I think we can chalk up the Echo-within-Echo to old-fashioned "early installment weirdness", to use a certain fansite's term. The Echo was pretty loosely defined during the initial launch content of 1.0, and it's likely there were initial plans for the Echo to be able to go full-on Inception mode on us - Echoes within Echoes within Echoes (just like ~real echoes in caves~, geddit? geddit?). However, after the launch intro questlines were received as poorly as they were (as the Echo back then was a confusing goddamn mess rather than they very clearly-marked flashback sequences we have in ARR and beyond) I wouldn't be surprised if this feature of the player Echo was quietly shelved and never, ever brought up again. Hell, the Echo isn't even interactive anymore, so Echoception is completely out.

I don't think we should really worry about how the Echo worked in 1.0, especially launch 1.0 - it's clear that pre-Yoshida 1.0 is pretty broad-strokes when it comes to canon at this point, so we probably don't need to worry about how the Echo worked at such an early stage of worldbuilding.

What is your take then Annoymoose, on the vision we have with Cid prior to the Garuda battle where Cid sees us give him his goggles? Cid seems to remember us from that moment. That in itself was rather weird. For a start, where the hell did we get the goggles from? Did we miss the part where our echo self stopped by a MB on the way to appearing as a floating apparition.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

What is your take then Annoymoose, on the vision we have with Cid prior to the Garuda battle where Cid sees us give him his goggles?

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This one I'm actually rather confident about. The scene begins with Cid struggling to regain his memories; as if he has a word on the tip of his tongue. He uses the phrase, "Just how long have I worn these damn goggles?" as an example, and suddenly the Echo triggers and begins to not only reveal his memories to us, but to him. As we see the images, it all starts coming back to him, scene by scene. When we appear in the glowing light and hand him his goggles, I believe it's a metaphorical scene - we're literally giving him the memory he just asked for; the scene comes full circle and has him say, "Ah, yes! It was then that I first donned these goggles."

He recognizes that the light he saw was you, and muses that perhaps his third eye was to blame, or perhaps it's a lucky guess.
(And then he remembers the flight to slay Nael van Darnus on the Rivenroad if you were from 1.0.)

Is that what Cid's Triple Triad card refers to?