JP server player is calling us out. Step up, NA endgamers.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Winning by surviving a hard enrage would be a bit of a twist.

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A hard enrage will kill you no matter what, but you can survive soft enrages sometimes. My first T4 clear in 2.0 was won a few seconds after the the elevator went haywire and started pumping out tons of forced damage. You could also look at the most popular way of doing T2, which also relies on the soft enrage.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

All games even before mmo had dps checks. Final fantasy and early legend of zelda had dps checks. so again please explain.

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On top of his reply to this, why did you chose to ignore the "a lot more" part of his statement? That changes the meaning of it to something that makes the above response pointless.

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Originally Posted by Odett

A hard enrage will kill you no matter what, but you can survive soft enrages sometimes. My first T4 clear in 2.0 was won a few seconds after the the elevator went haywire and started pumping out tons of forced damage. You could also look at the most popular way of doing T2, which also relies on the soft enrage.

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I kinda just meant his reference to a bomb being a dps check, since you can also "win" by surviving the blast. Im more a fan of soft enrages anyway, done right it can raise the tension.

I don't count Bombs because you can just tank it easily. They're usually not instant death. Just like how a tank can survive Final Sting most of the time.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I don't count Bombs because you can just tank it easily. They're usually not instant death. Just like how a tank can survive Final Sting most of the time.

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I was only nitpicking and arguing semantics anyways. Most bombs tend to be single target regardless, but it's an effect that happens when not enough damage is dealt in a timely fashion.

I always associate DPS checks as "You don't kill it fast enough? You die instead"

Anyway, since FF4 we had DPS checks. The problem isn't DPS check, it's DPS check based on healers + tanks DPS.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Anyway, since FF4 we had DPS checks. The problem isn't DPS check, it's DPS check based on healers + tanks DPS.

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Are dps checks based on tanks and healers tho?

In my opinion they are based on good dps and appropriate gear.

The rush to clear content as fast as possible combined with weekly lockouts and undergeared / less skilled (dps) players is forcing the tanks and healers to dps.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Are dps checks based on tanks and healers tho?

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They are when tanks have access to dps accessories and a raid is missing a whole difficulty tier.

Yoshi said he wanted Alex to have 3 difficulties of easy, medium and savage but medium got scrapped due to staff problems. If medium was implemented the bridge to savage wouldn't be as difficult as it is.

Or we could also realize that tanks equip DPS accessories not only to meet DPS checks, but because it benefits their defense more than HP bloat. More STR also means better agro, and it allows tanks to use less enmity combos and focus more on self-sustain and utility combos. Inner Beast, Berserk, Bloodbath, Storm's Path, Souleater, Equilibrium, and Clemency are all defensive moves that scale from Strength, and a good tank with strength accessories can become more self-sustaining (requiring less heals from a healer) than a full Vit tank. Please don't stick pseudo-DPS tanks in the same wagon as tanks who mitigate through an aggressive playstyle.

"requiring less heals from a healer"

With more HP you can withtstand more damage, so less need to heal.
With more mitigation you can withstand more damage too, so less need to heal.

When it comes to helping the healer, any of the two options work. Personally, when solo healing a tank, I prefer a full vit one that knows how to use cooldowns than a full str one that knows how to use cooldowns too.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

"requiring less heals from a healer"

With more HP you can withtstand more damage, so less need to heal.
With more mitigation you can withstand more damage too, so less need to heal.

When it comes to helping the healer, any of the two options work. Personally, when solo healing a tank, I prefer a full vit one that knows how to use cooldowns than a full str one that knows how to use cooldowns too.

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With more STR, you can recover HP from damage you're taking. If I tank an expert roulette boss as a WAR or DRK and there is a SCH in the group, the only healing I will need is Eos, as I can get the HP that I lose through Inner Beast, Berserk, Bloodbath, Storm's Path,Equilibrium, or Souleater. This is something I cannot do (especially as DRK) if I go full Vit, so I can tell you from personal experience that "With more HP you can withtstand more damage, so less need to heal." is a fallacy as long as you're dealing with a tank that knows what they're doing. Maybe a lot of healers would realize such things if they stopped heal bombing tanks every time they fell bellow 90% HP. I do agree with you that there are many tanks who stack STR and are complete headaches to heal because they cannot mitigate effectively, but a skilled tank using Str accessories, or a mix of STR and Vit will always outperform one who tanks in full Vit.

Vit does nothing but buy time for healers. No reduction in heals needed, incoming damage, threat, or outgoing damage. There is (almost) zero benefit to excess vit. The exceptions being stoneskin, thrill of battle, bene, and 2.x lustrate (RIP) and any other hp% based abilities I forgot.The difference between 20k hp and 100 HP is the time a healer has to cure you before you die after being hit.

So if the only tangible benefit to hp (beyond surviving the min to avoid 1shot) is healer reaction time, but the benefits to str are many (dps, enmity, and hp recovery via abilities), is it any wonder that as soon as good healers found out they didn't need that 'time' afforded by extra hp that the meta swung into full dps mode?

The games actual design does not support vit. That's why they are changing it in 3.2. Don't know why everyone gets hung up on it. It's like being mad that nin doesn't do well with str gear. To bad the game design doesn't support that opinion so get over it.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

"requiring less heals from a healer"

With more HP you can withtstand more damage, so less need to heal.
With more mitigation you can withstand more damage too, so less need to heal.

When it comes to helping the healer, any of the two options work. Personally, when solo healing a tank, I prefer a full vit one that knows how to use cooldowns than a full str one that knows how to use cooldowns too.

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That makes sense in theory; but in practice it's possible to have the best of both worlds ( tank w/ STR accessories and a healer that's DPSing) if the healer and tank both know what they're doing.

I've read through most of these posts and cant seem to hold off the laugh at many of you. A savage clear - i am literaly despising every bit of attitude of those who say you gotta git good on on yourself or by teaching from others. This game is legaly forbiding any use of third party software including those DPS softs. I can safely bet a million and say that absolutly none of those coil/alex clears would be cleared in the short time frame we have it now without those convenient dps counters , even these so called rotations we have now, they all are crafted out simply because of most of you use that illegal soft. Imagine coil t10-13 clear for those players blindly hitting wall on those very tight dps checks. Training dummies are nearly usless without those softs, show me one player who is doing his rotation on a dummie and studying combat log shortyly afterwards in game, given how very chaotic that combat log is. Sure theorycrafting is a thing, but reality and "tooltip" theory usualy is worlds apart. REAL TIME dps checks is what this game demands for you to get good and yet legaly they are forbidden. End of story.

Way to go guys. Turned yet another topic with potential into the simmering cesspool of bile and feces I've come to expect from the official forums.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

I've read through most of these posts and cant seem to hold off the laugh at many of you. A savage clear - i am literaly despising every bit of attitude of those who say you gotta git good on on yourself or by teaching from others. This game is legaly forbiding any use of third party software including those DPS softs. I can safely bet a million and say that absolutly none of those coil/alex clears would be cleared in the short time frame we have it now without those convenient dps counters , even these so called rotations we have now, they all are crafted out simply because of most of you use that illegal soft. Imagine coil t10-13 clear for those players blindly hitting wall on those very tight dps checks. Training dummies are nearly usless without those softs, show me one player who is doing his rotation on a dummie and studying combat log shortyly afterwards in game, given how very chaotic that combat log is. Sure theorycrafting is a thing, but reality and "tooltip" theory usualy is worlds apart. REAL TIME dps checks is what this game demands for you to get good and yet legaly they are forbidden. End of story.

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yeaaaa. JP does the same content with the same rules but with better results.
so that don't fly.

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A CLEAR example is crafting , a guy from the same server managed to get his gsm to 60 in no time same as other one from a NA server... You ask what's my point? The guy from jp didn't bother to post it but the guy NA decided to post it because wanted some recognition for it and been seen as the best......

That is a fact is clear and I keep pointing that out since forever. No wonder mods/admins in the forums listen more to the Jp community .

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Yeah, nothing to do with the fact this is a Japanese game made by a Japanese company or anything :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

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I create all my rotations without a parser and I know I do amazing dps. I actually don't know my actual numbers unless someone tells me. Also most skill players can tell what their dps is like without parsers and can improve without them.
Oh and I never look at job guides either.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

I create all my rotations without a parser and I know I do amazing dps. I actually don't know my actual numbers unless someone tells me. Also most skill players can tell what their dps is like without parsers and can improve without them.
Oh and I never look at job guides either.

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How exactly do you know you do amazing DPS, if you don't mind me asking?... Before I parsed myself I figured I was doing great DPS as I followed the advice of guides, but I was doing 100-200 below usual and afterwards I improved substantially with a little bit of effort. I thought I was doing "amazing" before then too.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

How exactly do you know you do amazing DPS, if you don't mind me asking?... Before I parsed myself I figured I was doing great DPS as I followed the advice of guides, but I was doing 100-200 below usual and afterwards I improved substantially with a little bit of effort. I thought I was doing "amazing" before then too.

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By reading tooltips, (crazy I know,) testing out the best combination of skills, maximizing dots and cd management. Also, the fact that I get told I do amazing dps or that most of my commendations come from dpsing never hurt either.
Also...PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. You just learn what doesn't work and what does

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Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

*SNIP*

It all comes down to the selfish behavior of this community, everyone is new to a fight at some point, everyone wipes to said fight multiple times at one point yet when people get past that hurdle and now posses the knowledge they could use to help others they suddenly enter a state of mind that says "kill experience or get lost" or "don't know the fight? sorry git gud then comeback later".

*SNIP*

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Agreed! I remember a PF group on my server said, "....experienced players only". This was for content that had just released.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

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I've gotten several commendations while half assing a dungeon and 0 commendations while doing my utmost best, commendations aren't an accurate way of handling anything due to people giving them out randomly for the most part (and the fact that most don't run a parser). But if you get told you do great DPS by someone running a parser then you're right, but you're the exception to the rule, not the rule. Most players are really bad unfortunately, and this is with several hundred runs of content so I think I've got a good amount of runs to work with here. Parser or not, people are going to suck, but with a parser they know they suck, and they might make an effort to improve themselves when seeing others do double or even triple their numbers.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

By reading tooltips, (crazy I know,) testing out the best combination of skills, maximizing dots and cd management. Also, the fact that I get told I do amazing dps or that most of my commendations come from dpsing never hurt either.
Also...PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. You just learn what doesn't work and what does

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if you do that for DRG though, you'll never know that you need to clip DoTs to get maximum DPS.
Because the usual way is letting a DoT finish to get full DPS.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

I mine for 8-10 hours straight on my days off. I run dungeons with friends, do primals, and run regular Alex when I feel like it. I will never touch any hard mode raid until it becomes and actual raid, period.

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you keep on saying that. no one would ever take you or want you in this games raids(no matter how much you keep saying they arent raids, by this games definition, they are) because you would be a waste of a dps slot.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

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no it don't dps check is dps check, games have been doing them longer then mmo.
Also most jp play on console, yet clear content.... throughts?

(every person i check on my server who is jp has a psn ID tag, which is only visible if you are console character)

I didn't ignore any aspect of the statement I also have heard that excusec since WoW when ppl tried to force me to DL i parser addon/ addons that tell u what to do and when to do it. I couldn't DL addon due to the pc was shared with my family.

People tend to over thing and over exagerate content and need for these tools. Pretty much its these people who NEED addon who are the bad players, can't play a game w/o ur hand being held by inaccurate tools.

if parser were needed the dervs would put them in the game by now. or in the first place. that haven't.

Also you can be reported on for being a parser user on these forums asked a gm myself, may wanna reconsider what you say.

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Originally Posted by hagare

if you do that for DRG though, you'll never know that you need to clip DoTs to get maximum DPS.
Because the usual way is letting a DoT finish to get full DPS.

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i do that normally LOL. AND i'M A PS3 PLAYER.

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

Way to go guys. Turned yet another topic with potential into the simmering cesspool of bile and feces I've come to expect from the official forums.

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actually what is happening is relevent to the topic, it points out what the guy saying is right :)

honestly my goal in mmo 99% of the time is to level up, pratice my jobs, max everything gear everything just to help other players. I never play an mmo for myself, i enjoy being part of a larger community. I've been playing solo video games since I was 3 years old. I could care less about shiney loot, or much much ppl dps for if we get the content done and had fun thats my biggest concern.

Before you think im a "casual" I'm not, i try to make sure i get the best gear for each jobs going as far as melding gear the entire leving process to get the most outa my stats, i practice my job if I feel i'm not playing well, or if i need a refesher. I dispise lazy players, who don't keep their gear up to date.

using terms like "carry" is stupid, unless the person is afk, then they participated end of story. Skill and dps get better with practice, not having a bunch of hot heads call u out and because their parser told theyou "suck".

Insulting players does not make them get better, it just makes them quit.
The reason I switched from excalibur to tonberry was due to the NA community. I hated how people acted in df, when i was trying to learn tanking i had to put up with so much BS i nearly had a panic attack due to the anxiety the community was giving me. I was cyber bullied to no end no matter how open minded and open for advice I was.

I remember this 1 roe whm in my first AK run I was trying to get my relic done. Me and my b/f qu'ed and ran it i was pld he was blm. I told the group it was my first time here, at first the roe whm told me off for pulling everything. This made me hesitent, so i pulled a lil slower more or less waiting to be told if i could skip that group of mobs or not. My b/f was trying to help best he can but he never tanked the dungeon and only ran it once and it was a speed run.

the whm roe started to get pissy, and started to pull for me saying im to slow insulting me, my family saying i'm pretty much scum of the earth.

this was before i was diagnosed with aspergers and was on anti anxiety pills, spo this nearly gave me a panic attack. We tried to kick them but they re que and went back into the instence insulting me further. I spent the rest of the dungeon crying my eyes out wondering why I was being treated like this.


i have been called a bad player in ff11 for not being a rdm healer, but was NEVER insulted to the exstent that this person did.

and that was 1 of meny cases of my experienes with the NA player base.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

By reading tooltips, (crazy I know,) testing out the best combination of skills, maximizing dots and cd management. Also, the fact that I get told I do amazing dps or that most of my commendations come from dpsing never hurt either.
Also...PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. You just learn what doesn't work and what does

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My damage depends on if there's a WAR or another NIN providing slashing debuff. Without one of those two, I spend a lot of time refreshing Mutilate, Dancing Edge, Shadow Fang, Armor Crush, and Raiton that I can barely get an Duality+Aeolian Edge in. It's Shadow Fang that usually does it, since it has the shortest ticks.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

i do that normally LOL. AND i'M A PS3 PLAYER.

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xD
DRGs have 2 main rotation.
The rotation of fame (with BoTD) and the rotation of shame ( when BoTD drops)
the fame clips DoTs when it's only halfway done, which is very counter intuitive @_@

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Originally Posted by hagare

if you do that for DRG though, you'll never know that you need to clip DoTs to get maximum DPS.
Because the usual way is letting a DoT finish to get full DPS.

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Actually I did. It was kinda hard to get cds and eventually BoTD/Gerkisgol(sp) to line up with the rotation I came up with so I ended up clipping a dot here and there. No one corrected me so I kept with it
I know you need somewhere around 560-590 skill speed as a DRG too for 3 Gerkisgols but I don't know the ss cap and it took me a very long time to notice it. I kept thinking I was getting really bad latency or I was screwing up my rotation.

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Originally Posted by Kedo

@Azazua_azura

I wasn't talking about gear in my first post. I was talking about player skill, which in this game a lot of players lack. I also said that it's not my responsibility to make sure that you play your class right, that is on YOU and YOU alone. I had to do it, and so did others. I won't waste your time, and I hope you won't waste mine. Be considerate to your fellow player, practice, parse, GIT GUD!
On the XI thing though, I do wish this game had more to do at cap like XI did, save for crappy drop rates, and ridiculous spawn timers. XI had solid varied content, with a nice mix of progression. I miss that for sure.

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my bad wrong person lol. i was waking up and press ur quote by mistake fixed it though.

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Originally Posted by hagare

xD
DRGs have 2 main rotation.
The rotation of fame (with BoTD) and the rotation of shame ( when BoTD drops)
the fame clips DoTs when it's only halfway done, which is very counter intuitive @_@

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not really, what i set my xhb up i string each skill in order fluidly and never let a dot fall off. I do the same with every job with dots, if dots fall i try to do a better job to make sure they don't. again as a ps3 player................................

I'm talking legend of zelda 1 Oot TP WW. several fights had a dps check.

fitrst dungeon boss on Ocarina was a dps check because if you didn't keep her stuned and using hard thrusts she could easily kill you be dropping her babies. Trick was to keep her stunned with deku seeds and hack at her eye.

ocarina water temple boss was a dps check if you didn't consistently pull out the membrain it would just keep tossing you into the spikes. trick to this was to pull it far into the floor area and using spin attacks and strong slaches.

zelda 1 fire dungeon boss (dungeon 3) not using bombs will kill you, the boss will enrage if u take to long and spew its power attacks to fill the room making it hard to near impossible to dodge.

Oot ganondorf fight you had limited time where he was weaken by the light arrows, this caused the floor to drop more often if you missed causing the fight to be unbeatable due to only having the courner work with and link can't really jump over that far before he unweakens.

ff11 diabolos fight dps check longer the fight progressed the more floor droped the more often he uses nightmare faster party dies had to stun him and dps him down fast.

ff11 shadow lord fight second phase dps check, he becomes immune to physical dps and had to be burn downfast due to spaming a room wide aoe that could kill the party.

ff11 cop first dungeon minitour fight. had to dps him down before he spam doom which u had to spam drink holy water to recover because u know rng.

ff11 just abount every hnm had an enrage timer added due to spawm holding.

ffx sin had to kill him before he hit overdrive which unless u had the negation u was fucked.

ffx yu yevon more sumons u had the longer the fight, had to dps him down so not to run outa curatives.

dragons dogma: death in bitter black isle had to dps him down before he used his death skill which killed everyone.

infact dragons dogma had alot of dps checked fights that if u didn't dmg them fast enoyght they will enrage and kill u.

dps check: needing to kill a mob/boss in a set amount of time befoe they enrage and kill you.

I knew this before mmo excisted. Most ff end bosses are a dps check. Hell even mario had a few dps check fights with bowser more so in the 3d mario.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

not really, what i set my xhb up i string each skill in order fluidly and never let a dot fall off. I do the same with every job with dots, if dots fall i try to do a better job to make sure they don't. again as a ps3 player................................

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I don't quite get what you mean xD
if you mean letting the DoT run its full course. then as a DRG doing the rotation of fame, that is actually a DPS loss overall.
other Jobs let them run the full course and try to avoid clipping.
Rotation of fame clip Dis and CT at about 6 second-ish I think(not halfway like I said first, my bad)

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Originally Posted by hagare

I don't quite get what you mean xD
if you mean letting the DoT run its full course. then as a DRG doing the rotation of fame, that is actually a DPS loss overall.
other Jobs let them run the full course and try to avoid clipping.
Rotation of fame clip Dis and CT at about 6 second-ish I think(not halfway like I said first, my bad)

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pretty much every job that has a dot i keep it refreshed before it hits 0 unless the mob is @ 2%. This includes drg, war, brd, blm, whm (unless the tank needs heals) smn, sch(unless the tank needs heals) nin (unless a person needs goad) I never needed to look this up, i never needed a parser to tell me this. I knew thing since -thinks- like forever. honestly that shou;ld be considered common knowledge especially if u know how the parser works which from what i was told factors in all personal dmg including dots and factors themj out into a ratio. it personally shouldn't matter, as long as the dot is up it still factors into the dmg.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

pretty much every job that has a dot i keep it refreshed before it hits 0 unless the mob is @ 2%. This includes drg, war, brd, blm, whm (unless the tank needs heals) smn, sch(unless the tank needs heals) nin (unless a person needs goad) I never needed to look this up, i never needed a parser to tell me this. I knew thing since -thinks- like forever. honestly that shou;ld be considered common knowledge especially if u know how the parser works which from what i was told factors in all personal dmg including dots and factors themj out into a ratio. it personally shouldn't matter, as long as the dot is up it still factors into the dmg.

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what I meant is, DoTs are normally done by not letting it drop but also not clipping it so it does the full tick.
which is actually how DRGs pre-HW and other jobs have been doing it so far.
The DRG rotation of fame(lvl 60 + BoTD up) though, clips on purpose so the DoTs don't do their full tick.
There is a rotation when BoTD is up that doesn't clip and doesn't let DoTs fall off, but that rotation is a DPS loss compared to the optimum one.

And using your way of thinking which is the normal way of thinking, you wouldn't be using the best rotation because it clips the DoT. Because it goes against the normal way of thinking which is not to clip DoTs and to let it run it's full course for the full damage/tick.

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Originally Posted by hagare

what I meant is, DoTs are normally done by not letting it drop but also not clipping it so it does the full tick.
which is actually how DRGs pre-HW and other jobs have been doing it so far.
The DRG rotation of fame(lvl 60 + BoTD up) though, clips on purpose so the DoTs don't do their full tick.
There is a rotation when BoTD is up that doesn't clip and doesn't let DoTs fall off, but that rotation is a DPS loss compared to the optimum one.

And using your way of thinking which is the normal way of thinking, you wouldn't be using the best rotation because it clips the DoT. Because it goes against the normal way of thinking which is not to clip DoTs and to let it run it's full course for the full damage/tick.

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dude...... pro tip.......... ur over thinking >.>;;

also cool i was talking lvl 50 not 60 XD but to me dot = damage = good. but i think ur WAY over thinking thgis shi.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

dude...... pro tip.......... ur over thinking >.>;;

also cool i was talking lvl 50 not 60 XD but to me dot = damage = good. but i think ur WAY over thinking thgis shi.

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maybe xD
My point after all those posts was, sometimes doing something that feels right/intuitive does not mean that you're doing things the best/right way.
Hard numbers, knowledge and information is the only way to objectively know what the best rotation, mechanics etc is.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

I'm talking legend of zelda 1 Oot TP WW. several fights had a dps check.

fitrst dungeon boss on Ocarina was a dps check because if you didn't keep her stuned and using hard thrusts she could easily kill you be dropping her babies. Trick was to keep her stunned with deku seeds and hack at her eye.

ocarina water temple boss was a dps check if you didn't consistently pull out the membrain it would just keep tossing you into the spikes. trick to this was to pull it far into the floor area and using spin attacks and strong slaches.

zelda 1 fire dungeon boss (dungeon 3) not using bombs will kill you, the boss will enrage if u take to long and spew its power attacks to fill the room making it hard to near impossible to dodge.

Oot ganondorf fight you had limited time where he was weaken by the light arrows, this caused the floor to drop more often if you missed causing the fight to be unbeatable due to only having the courner work with and link can't really jump over that far before he unweakens.

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three of your first four examples don't sound like dps checks at all. They sound like mechanics.


Also, I haven't read all the posts, but I didn't see any where anyone claimed they didn't exist... all I saw was someone saying they rely on them a lot more.

since you totally missed the " a lot more" part of the previous two posts. I'm going to put this here for clarity:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/gram...s-a-lot-plenty
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/more

for reference:

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Originally Posted by dank1

Those games werent build the same way as raids are now. Raids now are a lot more dps check oriented

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

On top of his reply to this, why did you chose to ignore the "a lot more" part of his statement? That changes the meaning of it to something that makes the above response pointless.

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