The Real Problem with Parsers

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

truly, truly (outrageously)

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Okay there Taric.

Alright, I've seen enough of this. Here's how it's gonna work:

If parsers are officially implemented, then it's up to the INDIVIDUAL to make the best of it. The tool itself is not and will not be a problem. However,

If you refuse to use it and make no improvement (that you need to improve); you're part of the problem.
If you use it to exclude people or judge them unfairly; you're part of the problem
If you use it purely for bragging rights or to look down on others; you're part of the problem
And if you demonize it and make assumptions that simply adding it is going to make anyone not already doing the above start doing it, you're just as much a part of the problem.

Personal Accountability. If things go bad, ask yourself first if you're contributing to the problem, or the solution. Parsers are a good tool that can be used badly, like many other tools already in-game. Let's not look at anyone or anything but ourselves first for the cause of any problems/solutions.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

...but lets be honest, do you really think the chances of them making one that does the full measurements and tells you everyone's numbers are good? I don't think SE would want to risk that. This game definitely caters to both crowds and the casual crowd wouldn't like a full parser being available.

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Yes, I do believe the chances are good (if they make the decision to add one). They continue to use dps checks as a major mechanic, and they continue to receive feedback that we need a way to see dps if this is the case. A full one is very useful, despite what some would say.

I don't think the casual crowd (though from your comment, I think we have different definitions of casual crowd) would be put out by a parser, and would benefit from it as well.

Of course, you will see threads pop up against it, if implemented, but there are threads against everything implemented in game. Look at the hairstyle contest for example, no less than a dozen threads criticizing it.

And yes, you will see the odd abuse of it, by someone who doesn't know how to read it. But there isn't a single feature that you can implement in game that isn't abused in some way by someone.

Coming from games that have them, they were beneficial to everyone except the odd person who absolutely refused to do anything, (those people who would pretty much stand there and put out 10%-25% of people in relevant endgame). In lower, easier content people weren't kicked since it didn't impact the outcome of the run.

The only problem with parsers is that this thread has gone on for 33 pages.

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Originally Posted by ShinSenpai

Okay there Taric.

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I won't lie, I'm at least a little disappointed when people consider that the reference.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I won't lie, I'm at least a little disappointed when people consider that the reference.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6G_o1MYECg ?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

To be honest, I'm kind of scared that people thought my story about being kicked over not eating a completely non-edible food instead a completely non-existing food was meant to be serious. :/

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Honestly, I didn't even pay attention to those parts, I just paid attention to the fact that it came right after I used "someone would have mentioned that by now" as an argument. :p

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Do you really think I care about my credibility when I've specifically said I'm not anti-parser and then people jump at me for being anti-parser?

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Well, I mean, we argued for how long about whether or not parsers should be allowed, and I was on the pro-parse side, and you were arguing against me, so clearly you're anti-parser. You casual scrub, you. :p

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

At this point, I can only assume you've missed my repeated, and I do mean repeated, statements saying that I'm completely fine with parsers as long as they don't create extra jerks and that I'm all for a personal parser for people to see their own DPS to improve because that's the safest middle ground for SE to let people get their numbers to see if they have room for improvement without risking extra jerks calling people out on their DPS. I assume that because you seem to be trying to convince me of the exact benefits of a parser that I've already said I know about and think would be great to have.

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It just that reading these forums, I feel like anything Squenix does would seem to increase the number of jerks and the like tenfold. Makes them quite fun, though. Nothing like a big "What are you even saying?" in the morning.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

To be honest, I'm kind of scared that people thought my story about being kicked over not eating a completely non-edible food instead a completely non-existing food was meant to be serious. :/

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My super clever mind's first thought was to ask if the "tailor-made" pie was made of linen.

Here's a fun fact: Calling people out on their bad dps doesn't make one a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Here's a fun fact: Calling people out on their bad dps doesn't make one a jerk.

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Kind of depends on the tone.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Here's a fun fact: Calling people out on their bad dps doesn't make one a jerk.

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Yes it does. Calling people out indicates telling people they suck, L2P, etc...

Pointing out areas for improvement and offering constructive advice does not.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Honestly, I didn't even pay attention to those parts

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But those are the best parts!

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Well, I mean, we argued for how long about whether or not parsers should be allowed, and I was on the pro-parse side, and you were arguing against me, so clearly you're anti-parser. You casual scrub, you. :p

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It's because I don't want anyone finding out that I'm not out-DPSing the DRG on my tank. Shhhhhh. I'm so ashamed that I'm not both topping the DPS charts and tanking the mobs. It's bad enough that I'm also slacking and not doing all the healing to so the healers can DPS.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

My super clever mind's first thought was to ask if the "tailor-made" pie was made of linen.

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Ew. Everyone knows you don't use linen in pies.

It ruins the texture. You always want silk. Nice and smooth.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Here's a fun fact: Calling people out on their bad dps doesn't make one a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've never heard the phrase "calling someone out" as not being negative.

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To add to this, I checked some dictionaries, unsurprisingly normal dictionaries didn't have the phrase in any way that applied to this, but urban dictionary doesn't seem to paint a very innocuous picture. Most them quite literally have to do with challenging somebody for some sort of fight or insulting them. In fact, the top accepted definition says "to put someone on blast", which then goes on to "to shame them badily (sic) in front of a group of three or more people". Which is oddly specific and I'm not sure why two isn't a blast.

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So yes, "calling people out" by the apparently generally accepted definition of the phrase does make one a jerk because the phrase tends to revolve around insulting or attempting to shame someone.

There's a difference between "calling someone out" and "politely offering assistance to help someone improve".

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Originally Posted by Benolan

Yes it does. Calling people out indicates telling people they suck, L2P, etc...

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Since English isn't my first language, I thought maybe I'm using 'call somebody out' differently, so I checked a dictionary.

This is not at all what it indicates.

Calling out does not necessarily mean negative tone, it just means pointing out where someone can improve. Although a lot of people associate calling out with being toxic...does not make it true though!

Lets say you join a pf for 8man stuff. You fail a dps check. You wipe. few times. few more times. times run out and you disband.

A parser allows you to replace/kick the right member. "Sorry mate, you are holding us back, go back, train some more, git gud and do the job". Rest of the group finds a competent member(s) and finishes the job.

Bad dps found out he needs more training.
Good group got the job done,
everyone happy vs the first scenario where nobody got the job done

So, bad dps, might be equal to "not-good-enough" or sugar coat it as u want, but still they didn't meet the requirement and punishes the rest of the group
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also the game needs few things to make this "issue" a non-issue:

1) to alert the dps when they are bad
2) to have an ingame guide that will show them what is bad and what is good
3) to have a ingame field to practice and git gud

solution for all of those in a extreme lazy way is a parser and mini-instances that work as trials and tickets that grant you a pass to certain content.

let me elaborate:
each week you need to do one solo-trial per job. Each time you complete it (just the most advanced one you completed) you get some eso, gil, crap reward and you have a ticket to join appropriated content (unless going in 8man premade, or make it a checkbox requirement in pf too)

you ain't good enough, you automatically can't join stuff that is above your skill/knowledge level. (unless pf allows that).
No hard feelings if you don't reach the requirement (like ilvl for example), and you then can't blame people for being aHoles and hide behind disabled people.
And if people under perform even then (by far) you can kick them and say they cheat (as they did have the ticket and can do better but are too lazy) without any risk of being punished by GM.

So such a rigid, unyielding, black-white system (like ilvl requirement) can make the community much less toxic. Because people that are doing very bad are gonna know that without other people telling them which results in much less frustration (on both sides, and will save time in the long run).

If other people want to carry you, that is their choice and can be only done in pf.

Am not putting any numbers, but if the gear requirement for something is ilvl 170, the efficiency of using that gear should also be a requirement, and the only way to test it (no obvious things like tank/healing checks) is a parser in appropriated environment .

Add to that overhealing, mana efficiency, tp efficiency (that could be only tested in those solo-trials, as dummy parser ain't gonna to a thing there).
With those tools, and set-in-stone requirements, you can start building a healthy community.

It may sound harsh, but is beneficial for everyone on the long run. Nobody is publicly marked, shamed or anything like that and can do content they are able to do/learn/finish.

With no real implementation of those tools, there is chaos, and where is chaos there is frustration. When frustrations comes into play, toxicity is born.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Calling out does not necessarily mean negative tone, it just means pointing out where someone can improve. Although a lot of people associate calling out with being toxic...does not make it true though!

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It's similar to the devolution of the term 'gg'

Originally it was a term expressing "Good Game", which was thanking the other person for playing the game with you, not a representative of the quality of game. It seems these days GG sounds condescending, and even members of your own team would think other wise.

Similarly, 'calling someone out' is nothing more than "You there." You combine it with "Your X is Y.". This is not rude by itself, but it tends to be construed that way because people do not like being singled out of a group, especially if it is in regards to their performance.

It's not really necessary in anything outside savage content and extreme primals since your team is heavily punished by a mistake made by one person. So for 95+% of content, no, calling someone out isn't necessary, but for the remaining 5%, you can still do it with more tact.

"Someone needs to not drag the death zone onto the healers." <= Tactful
"Hey Leonardo, stop dragging the death zone onto the healers." <= Less tactful

If the main reason of not having a parser is due to people calling out over dps, then you're argument is pretty invalid. If you mess up a mechanic during an important boss fight time and time again, should you not be called out for it? Your continuous failure is causing the group to wipe over and over. Regardless if you're new or not. If your dps is much lower than it should be during a dps check, then yes, you're holding your team back and should be held accountable for.

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Originally Posted by Benolan

Yes it does. Calling people out indicates telling people they suck, L2P, etc...

Pointing out areas for improvement and offering constructive advice does not.

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Calling someone out means pointing out something negative about them. It doesn't have to be done in a dickish tone.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Calling out does not necessarily mean negative tone

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Let's pretend that what appears to be the generally accepted definition of the phrase does not mean negative tone. Let's say that it could be either negative or positive tone.

If someone is using the phrase with the clear intention of meaning the negative tone definition, then whether it has a positive definition is irrelevant and semantic arguments suck.

What matters is the definition that the person using the phrase intends. So if someone says "People shouldn't call others out on their DPS" meaning "People shouldn't try to shame or insult others on their DPS", pointing out that "calling someone out" could be done nicely is irrelevant, because they obviously mean that people shouldn't be doing it negatively.

What I see as the biggest problem is, that there are many people which DO use Parser. But if you play on PS-System, you just can't!

I don't like the thought of getting a Parser for everyone neither....

But if there will be a "Parser-Puppet", then we ALL got the opportunity to see were we stay and so we all can improve ourselves.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Calling someone out means pointing out something negative about them. It doesn't have to be done in a dickish tone.

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Let me tell you a story:

Waaaaay back when I was a young gladiator lad I was DF'ing halatali for the first time. I had tanked for a long time in FFXI and thought I knew everything. When we are pulling mobs I was not using flash enough to keep hate on AoE damage bursts from the mages in the party. This led to a "you suck tank" style rebuf that was greatly unappreciated. However, in that same instance the healer ( a higher level tank) politely pointed out what I should be doing. It was simple advice that I probably could have figured out on my own over time, but I still think kindly of that guy to this day. I have on many occasions in content I don't know been asked to do things differently, it's always been more of a help than a hindrance.

As long as people are going into content with a higher than 3rd grade mentality then you should be giving advice if you are the more experienced one in the dungeon or raid.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

As long as people are going into content with a higher than 3rd grade mentality then you should be giving advice if you are the more experienced one in the dungeon or raid.

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Wouldn't be surprised if many people gave up on giving advice, because a lot of times the response will be "**** you, I play how I want."

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Wouldn't be surprised if many people gave up on giving advice, because a lot of times the response will be "**** you, I play how I want."

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Wouldn't be surprised if many didn't even bother trying to give advice in the first place because they assume a lot of times the response will be "**** you, I play how I want."

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

People that care about using parsers are the people already using parsers.

Oh wait, except for PS3 and PS4 players. While I will be the first to laugh at those plebs (I know, its not their fault...but really, mmo on a console?), I do think they should also have the chance to improve.

And with a worthless combat tracker and no real ingame feedback it makes sense that addon support should be added soon which was promised and should've been here by now grrr will also include some sort of dps tracker.

If only to put those console users in their place.

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Yea, those silly console users. I can't believe they would actually play a ps3/ps4 game on their ps3/ps4!

The real reason we dont have parsers: PS3 Limitations

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Wouldn't be surprised if many didn't even bother trying to give advice in the first place because they assume a lot of times the response will be "**** you, I play how I want."

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I have found that 95% of the time, the person accepts the advice as long as it's said in a polite/sugarcoated way. You can't always work everything around the worst of the worst of the community or you end up with Nintendo-style online communication.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Wouldn't be surprised if many didn't even bother trying to give advice in the first place because they assume a lot of times the response will be "**** you, I play how I want."

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Like how you assume that parsers will somehow make people jerks!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Someone needs to not drag the death zone onto the healers." <= Tactful
"Hey Leonardo, stop dragging the death zone onto the healers." <= Less tactful

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Or the even nicer way:

"Hey guys, I noticed we were placing the death zone onto the healers by mistake. If we try and put them [here] and [here] (using waypoints) I think we should be able to handle this no problemo. We got this!"

What usually helps the most, and tends to result in people NOT getting up in arms is:

a) Not singling out by name (as you suggest) and
b) Offering, politely, the solution/general tips so you don't just sound like a complainer

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Like how you assume that parsers will somehow make people jerks!

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And like how you assume that having 300 less DPS means the moon will grow a face and crash into the planet in three days!

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And like how you assume that having 300 less DPS means the moon will grow a face and crash into the planet in three days!

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Aren't there actually multiple DPS checks across multiple fights where exactly that can happen but with out the 3 days
days (nice majora mask reference)

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And like how you assume that having 300 less DPS means the moon will grow a face and crash into the planet in three days!

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With some fights, there is a really high DPS check. People not doing the DPS to meet the check cause the group to die. I dont understand why people hate on parsers so much

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Originally Posted by Vieirax

Aren't there actually multiple DPS checks across multiple fights where exactly that can happen but with out the 3 days days (nice majora mask reference)

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That realization when Dalamud was just a failed DPS check.

Man, parsers could have saved 1.x.

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Originally Posted by Griffeth

With some fights, there is a really high DPS check.

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You don't say? This is news to me. I thought all the fights in the game were balanced around auto-attack only and weaponskills, spells, and abilities were just to make them go faster.

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People not doing the DPS to meet the check cause the group to die.

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Except for the tank that had just enough HP to survive! For one more hit.

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I dont understand why people hate on parsers so much

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I don't understand it either. It's so silly.

When i read that People in this Thread kick other Players out of the damn EX Roulette. Why don't you godlike Players (that seems what you think from yourself) go in there with a premade Party? There wouldn't be people who won't fit in your fine world of playing.

Don't know a Parser for myself would be fine to practice Rotations but the Problem is that most of the People need it to humiliate other People who are not playing on their Level. Thats sadly a part of online Gaming.

Don't get me wrong i don't hate Parsers, i hate People who use them to show their giant Ego and humiliate People who aren't like them.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

most of the People need it to humiliate other People who are not playing on their Level.

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Yeah, except this is a blatant lie and you know it.

This fear mongering is getting out of hand.

I will say that I have used the parser available, and I have improved my own personal DPS as well as the DPS of a couple FC mates.

If in the right hands it can help identify problems and improve high end play overall. In the wrong hands it can leave a sour taste in players mouths and lead to just overall toxic atmosphere. Not much you can really do about it.

If you remove/ban it you are taking out a good thing because of a couple of people that feel they need to wave their e-peen around.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Yeah, except this is a blatant lie and you know it.

This fear mongering is getting out of hand.

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People around here are afraid of things that almost never happen, even if they have never happened to them personally.

The Elitist Scare is real.

Yeah right read the Thread and you see it. Humiliation begins if someone kicks a Player because he doesn't deal the DMG he deals.

I don't even care if i carry a player in a damn random Dungeon. Its a Game and if there is a bad Player in my Party i still can give him Tips or something, but i never would kick him.

And before you suggest i'm one of those Players who will get kicked you are terribly wrong. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Yeah right read the Thread and you see it. Humiliation begins if someone kicks a Player because he doesn't deal the DMG he deals.

I don't even care if i carry a player in a damn random Dungeon. Its a Game and if there is a bad Player in my Party i still can give him Tips or something, but i never would kick him.

And before you suggest i'm one of those Players who will get kicked you are terribly wrong. ;)

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The issue of toxic players isn't directly linked to parsers, however. You certainly don't need a parser to recognize truly bad gameplay, nor do you need one to shame and/or kick other players.

Similarly, helpful players as well as those seeking to improve will continue to behave as expected, but with the added benefit of being able to make tweaks in response to user-friendly metric feedback.

Well i allready wrote that i don't hate Parsers but you are right they will find other ways to do the Things they do. But how ever i don't want that Parsers get banned or something, i just wish those freaking toxic Players would vanish from online Games.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

When i read that People in this Thread kick other Players out of the damn EX Roulette. Why don't you godlike Players (that seems what you think from yourself) go in there with a premade Party? There wouldn't be people who won't fit in your fine world of playing.

Don't know a Parser for myself would be fine to practice Rotations but the Problem is that most of the People need it to humiliate other People who are not playing on their Level. Thats sadly a part of online Gaming.

Don't get me wrong i don't hate Parsers, i hate People who use them to show their giant Ego and humiliate People who aren't like them.

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I'm one of those 'elitists' that use a parser but don't use it to humiliate/kick others. But I guess I have to start kicking and trashing on 'lesser' players now since I'm an elitist parser user, according to assumptions such as the quoted. Seriously though, fear mongering such as this only weakens the stance the anti parser crowd and SE is taking.