Astrologian "BUFFS"

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Their information is based on level 50 basecrit before HW. It's just wrong.

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That's what I assumed. Thanks for sharing that information; very informative!

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Not really. Ive seen dps focus dps oriented cards on me during entire runs and I have achieved 100-120 dps between tp increase card/balance/arrow from the beginning of the fight til end. Our astrologian in Savage easily keeps us alive while putting out 350 dps on opressor til he has to drop to help the white mage heal. To discredit someone because they are talking numbers in a mostly sporatic setting is not really credible..

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You just had a better performance on your run with 100-120 additional DPS, played less ballad or something.

For the AST Buff to net you over 100 DPS you'd have to get every card the astro draws, preferably balance, and do more than 2k DPS.

Uhm doing 1200 dps nets you 120 dps with just napkin math. What magic numbers are pulling to get your math from? I am talking personal parses where the astrologian did focus on me with the buffs. Most likely would be near higher with a skilled dragoon. I know that Astrologians are not the best job right now but too many people are trying to downplay the numbers same as certain people are most likely boosting the numbers.

But anyhow I think I will bow out. Enjoy the uhm 50 pages of astrologian bashing despite the number of people playing them and the job as a whole being stronger then what people want to admit.

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Uhm doing 1200 dps nets you 120 dps with just napkin math.

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Nope. Try again. (1200 x .1)/2 = 60 DPS over 30 seconds (CD of Draw/Uptime of Balance).

In reality, it's far less than even 60 DPS since you won't be drawing Balance every time.

What? 10% of 1200 is 120 for the card's duration. And the average of multiple parses with an astrologian focusing the card buffs has been about a 120 dps increase

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What? 10% of 1200 is 120 for the card's duration.

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Balance only has (at best if you draw it everytime) 50% uptime. So even in this instance, where a DPS is doing 1200 DPS, you're only adding (on average, due to 50% uptime) 60DPS. Unless you're looking at it in a 15 second time frame, which is largely useless to do since no fight lasts only 15 seconds.

Again, work on your "napkin math". You're not going to be drawing Balance every time anyways, so it's probably closer to 10 DPS, since you'll only be drawing Balance 1 in 6 times (on average).

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Uhm doing 1200 dps nets you 120 dps with just napkin math. What magic numbers are pulling to get your math from? I am talking personal parses where the astrologian did focus on me with the buffs. Most likely would be near higher with a skilled dragoon. I know that Astrologians are not the best job right now but too many people are trying to downplay the numbers same as certain people are most likely boosting the numbers.

But anyhow I think I will bow out. Enjoy the uhm 50 pages of astrologian bashing despite the number of people playing them and the job as a whole being stronger then what people want to admit.

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You should work on your aggressive wording.

I like my Astro, I want the card buffs to be usefull, I can do some basic poor man's math, of course that's bashing...

i give up.... my brain is melting down due to ..... players got that AST should be like WHM or SCH or do the same or try and make the job too strong......... all i want is a healer that is NOT like the other 2 current healers or to be COMPARED to the other 2 healers..... i do not want multiple healing cooldowns ... all i want is a healer which does Raw healing and buff players to me this what it feels like

WHM = Healer that carry the group with raw healing power (Priest)
SCH = Healer that protect the group as much as possible and reduce damage in take (Paladin with pet)
AST = Healer that Tops up the injured and Buff the Brawn (Enchantress)

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

well this is where u are wrong and errm AST are not scholars and i didnt even mention a sect..... but i have notice myself that crit shines alot with ast ...

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The issue with crit has less to do with direct comparison between SCH and AST than it has to do with crit's effect on heals, as I explained. SCH is notable for being the exception where crit ties into a mechanic of theirs; there were good reasons why crit wasn't highly prioritized by most WHMs (DET/PIE being the popular itemization goal), and AST in either stance has little that suggests that crit would outweigh DET.

I'm also reasonably sure that your assessment of DET is incorrect, but I will agree that Spell Speed remains a low-priority stat for healers.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

i give up.... my brain is melting down due to ..... players got that AST should be like WHM or SCH or do the same or try and make the job too strong......... all i want is a healer that is NOT like the other 2 current healers or to be COMPARED to the other 2 healers..... i do not want multiple healing cooldowns ... all i want is a healer which does Raw healing and buff players to me this what it feels like

WHM = Healer that carry the group with raw healing power (Priest)
SCH = Healer that protect the group as much as possible and reduce damage in take (Paladin with pet)
AST = Healer that Tops up the injured and Buff the Brawn (Enchantress)

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crit and cards buffs are the topic currently... where does the "you want them to be the same" come from now?

because im tired... im annoyed with ALL these people going on and on and on about astrologian...... i bet u that Majority of them aint even max level or actually done some raiding as an AST........... at this point i do not care any more .... i have litterally given up on explaining about AST we had a minor weakness.. and gear issue and that is it.......... SO I WISH this thread to be locked and many other because this is all getting out of hand now

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

i give up.... my brain is melting down due to ..... players got that AST should be like WHM or SCH or do the same or try and make the job too strong......... all i want is a healer that is NOT like the other 2 current healers or to be COMPARED to the other 2 healers..... i do not want multiple healing cooldowns ... all i want is a healer which does Raw healing and buff players to me this what it feels like

WHM = Healer that carry the group with raw healing power (Priest)
SCH = Healer that protect the group as much as possible and reduce damage in take (Paladin with pet)
AST = Healer that Tops up the injured and Buff the Brawn (Enchantress)

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If only AST actually had that niche. SCH's Selene manages to (mostly) match our buffs without RNG and with more consistency. Our petty 5% party damage boosts for 15s that take at the least 60 seconds to set up with perfect RNG can hardly be considered worthy of the title "Enchantress". I'd love for them to BE that though, and they're not there yet.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

because im tired... im annoyed with ALL these people going on and on and on about astrologian...... i bet u that Majority of them aint even max level or actually done some raiding as an AST........... at this point i do not care any more .... i have litterally given up on explaining about AST we had a minor weakness.. and gear issue and that is it.......... SO I WISH this thread to be locked and many other because this is all getting out of hand now

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There's nothing getting "out of hand" here. You're always free to leave the Healer Roles forum if for whatever reason you can't take the constructive criticism being given to SE involving a Healer class that people, I must remind you, WANT TO DO WELL. If SE feels AST needs it, they'll listen to complaints. If SE doesn't feel AST needs help, they'll leave them be. Either way, you don't lose, so I can't understand what your problem is.

Healer forums are not for the feint of heart. Goto bed and I'll fight the fight for you. Se knows that astrologian job is not weak and well at most alter the two cooldown s that are worthless outside of rp emotes.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

because im tired... im annoyed with ALL these people going on and on and on about astrologian...... i bet u that Majority of them aint even max level or actually done some raiding as an AST........... at this point i do not care any more .... i have litterally given up on explaining about AST we had a minor weakness.. and gear issue and that is it.......... SO I WISH this thread to be locked and many other because this is all getting out of hand now

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It's not worth getting worked up over. Most of this thread is about picking apart weaknesses and providing feedback in the hope of seeing further tweaks.

If you read carefully, you'll note that most posters don't try to make AST out to be some sort of truly unplayable Job; however, many of us feel that the current state of AST deserves this kind of feedback because we don't want to invest our playtime in a Job that's inherently disadvantaged compared to similar Jobs. Passable isn't good enough. It either needs to be a more powerful/flexible healer or needs a very compelling buff system to compensate for its comparative lack of healing cooldowns.

Sure, it would have been nice for AST to have a truly unique healing style, but that wasn't in the cards this time around, so we work with what we've been given.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

There's nothing getting "out of hand" here. You're always free to leave the Healer Roles forum if for whatever reason you can't take the constructive criticism being given to SE involving a Healer class that people, I must remind you, WANT TO DO WELL. If SE feels AST needs it, they'll listen to complaints. If SE doesn't feel AST needs help, they'll leave them be. Either way, you don't lose, so I can't understand what your problem is.

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yes i know but im in multiple of threads already explaining AST ,,,,, just trying to beat it into people heads to stop thinkin and comparing us to WHM and SCH and there Stat formulas and all that crap....the whole point is to make AST not like those healers im just trying to get my point across to players and that is all Vlady is also doing the same AST have minor weakness and that is it aswell as an identity crisis ....but yeah i just want a card throwing enchantress as a healer.... and not some mix up mongrel from other healers it feels like......... a SCH and WHM fell in love and had a Child and called it AST and slapped a bunch of cards in its face

But im out because brain is dead :O

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

a SCH and WHM fell in love and had a Child and called it AST and slapped a bunch of cards in its face

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As much as it hurts to admit, that's already what we have. :P

A lot of the suggestions people are putting forward do feature cards because that's the most unique direction SE can take us and our current cards aren't cutting it. Math is an easy way to determine the "best-case-scenario" for our cards and that best case scenario is nowhere near where it should be.

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yes i know but im in multiple of threads already explaining AST ,,,,, just trying to beat it into people heads to stop thinkin and comparing us to WHM and SCH and there Stat formulas and

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No one is asking anyone to explain AST. People understand it; it's not some sort of mysterious class with a secret key locked inside the middle of a labyrinth. There is a reason people compare AST and WHM/SCH; it's because they gave AST a near exact copy of their tool kits. AST hasn't created a new meta game for healers yet because of it's lack of utility cause by the RNG/potency of their card buffs.

This isn't bashing. It's not "hating". It's not a "lack of understanding AST". It's not a "fight" or "war". This is feedback, which is apparently something that people can't seem to understand.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

... a SCH and WHM fell in love and had a Child and called it AST and slapped a bunch of cards in its face

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https://40.media.tumblr.com/1a5f34d0...qz82o1_500.jpg

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

No one is asking anyone to explain AST. People understand it; it's not some sort of mysterious class with a secret key locked inside the middle of a labyrinth. There is a reason people compare AST and WHM/SCH; it's because they gave AST a near exact copy of their tool kits. AST hasn't created a new meta game for healers yet because of it's lack of utility cause by the RNG/potency of their card buffs.

This isn't bashing. It's not "hating". It's not a "lack of understanding AST". It's not a "fight" or "war". This is feedback, which is apparently something that people can't seem to understand.

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To add to this its also being compaired because its taking their spot in the group it needs to be able to provide an equal exchange to the member removed to make it viable. Right now its losing potency AND throughput in the form of healing CD's in exchange for lackluster buffs that are based on RNG. A healer slot is a healer slot not a half healer half buffer slot that might buff you or might just roll spear throughout the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Healer forums are not for the feint of heart. Goto bed and I'll fight the fight for you. Se knows that astrologian job is not weak and well at most alter the two cooldown s that are worthless outside of rp emotes.

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Oh please you are not "fighting" anything you are screaming from the sidelines hiding behind platitudes while others at least try to go into specifics. At this point I am 99% sure you are just trolling anyways.

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Originally Posted by Yhisa

yes i know but im in multiple of threads already explaining AST ,,,,, just trying to beat it into people heads to stop thinkin and comparing us to WHM and SCH and there Stat formulas and all that crap....the whole point is to make AST not like those healers im just trying to get my point across to players and that is all Vlady is also doing the same AST have minor weakness and that is it aswell as an identity crisis ....but yeah i just want a card throwing enchantress as a healer.... and not some mix up mongrel from other healers it feels like......... a SCH and WHM fell in love and had a Child and called it AST and slapped a bunch of cards in its face

But im out because brain is dead :O

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Your explaining is for naught. People get what the AST is about and the role is trying to fill is outshined by the two other healers who's focus lies elsewhere. And that is the problem most people are addressing. Nobody here wants to have a carbon copy of SCH or WHM but lets be honest we are a copy of WHM already minus some smaller differences. And the reason people compare AST to WHM and SCH is because we have to. Because those are the two Jobs AST has to compete with. And I wouldn't call an identy crisis for a class a minor weakness. Its a core problem that has to be adressed and which isn't easy to handle from a game balance standpoint

Dont get me wrong I'd love for being mostly about being support. But where do you go from there?

A: Give AST enough utility buff that they bring the same DPS increase a SCH/WHM would bring to the group but keep the heal abilties the same. So a party would have to choose between 2 healers who offer more safety or the AST who brings the same numbers but is more of a risk. Due to RNG.

B: Give AST much stronger utility in order to increase the dps of the group much more than a WHM/SCH ever could while providing the same level of heals. This approach would certainly be more interesting in terms of what a group is willing to risk for higher DPS potentially offsetting DPS checks. If RNG plays in their favor.

Both approaches assume that RNG stays the same as it is now. Additionally SE would have to balance encounters much differently in terms of healing and dps checks for the harder content. So from SE's standpoint they would have a much easier life if they would neglect the cards. (as they are now but give AST almost the same healing capabilites as WHM/SCH) Which leads to the identity crisis they have at the moment. ASTs are neither here nor there. And that sucks. WHM and SCH have clearly defined roles they excel at. AST does not.

Again I want to emphasis that most of the people here want AST to be their own thing while still being on the same level as SCH/WHM.

Sorry if this is a retard question (still leveling atm, lvl 35) but why is Noct Sec bad?

I think that the 5% extra heals will be pretty awesome.
If my math is correct, Bene is as good as Cure or Physick now. Bene II is as good as Cure II. The instant-cast shielding effect is going to be really good. Especially on tight situations where you Asp. Bene>ED>Bene II spam.
The only thing I miss is the godly crit for the double shielding. We need to have that too.

I'm not talking about progression raids, talking about leveling my AST to go into dungeons and the occasional alex runs.

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Owl

Sorry if this is a retard question (still leveling atm, lvl 35) but why is Noct Sec bad?

I think that the 5% extra heals will be pretty awesome.
If my math is correct, Bene is as good as Cure or Physick now. Bene II is as good as Cure II. The instant-cast shielding effect is going to be really good. Especially on tight situations where you Asp. Bene>ED>Bene II spam.
The only thing I miss is the godly crit for the double shielding. We need to have that too.

I'm not talking about progression raids, talking about leveling my AST to go into dungeons and the occasional alex runs.

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It more to do with it in comparison to Diurnal sect. The throughput of HPS on Diurnal significantly outweighs that of Nocturnal, with the shield being fine (except Collective Unconscious in Noct), but lacking the additional healing throughout a SCH has with fairy in regards to shields.

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Owl

Sorry if this is a retard question (still leveling atm, lvl 35) but why is Noct Sec bad?

I think that the 5% extra heals will be pretty awesome.
If my math is correct, Bene is as good as Cure or Physick now. Bene II is as good as Cure II. The instant-cast shielding effect is going to be really good. Especially on tight situations where you Asp. Bene>ED>Bene II spam.
The only thing I miss is the godly crit for the double shielding. We need to have that too.

I'm not talking about progression raids, talking about leveling my AST to go into dungeons and the occasional alex runs.

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In nocturnal stance you mimic a scholar. But you become a weaker scholar in general: weaker shields, weaker "sacred soil", one lustrate every 40 seconds vs 3 lustrates each each 60 seconds, luminous aether is on twice longer cooldown compared to aetherflow, so less mana. PLUS you have NO FAIRY. You have synergy only, which locks on to 1 target for 20 seconds, on a long cooldown. So you are just a weaker scholar in general. PLUS you get no good use of time dilation. And you have no cooldowns to increase your healing(no rouse, no fey illumination). And you have less DPS than SCH too. Just less in everything.. And selene atk.speed buff is guaranteed and is basically better than your entire level 30-45 arsenal of card skills.
And all the less for asp. benefic - a 525 instant costy heal that is still dependant on GCD, can't crit..

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Owl

Sorry if this is a retard question (still leveling atm, lvl 35) but why is Noct Sec bad?

I think that the 5% extra heals will be pretty awesome.
If my math is correct, Bene is as good as Cure or Physick now. Bene II is as good as Cure II. The instant-cast shielding effect is going to be really good. Especially on tight situations where you Asp. Bene>ED>Bene II spam.
The only thing I miss is the godly crit for the double shielding. We need to have that too.

I'm not talking about progression raids, talking about leveling my AST to go into dungeons and the occasional alex runs.

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People honestly really exaggerate how "bad" Nocturnal Sect is. At a base level it's just fine, and arguably is the better stance overall when it comes to all of your non-aspected heals.

- A 5% boost to healing power is probably a more useful passive effect overall than a 5% boost to speed, even if the speed boost is (arguably/in my opinion) more fun and interesting.
- I'd take a 10% damage shield that is only usable during phase transitions over a HoT bubble that is never more useful than what I can do with my GCDs (Collective Unconscious).
- Aspected Helios is roughly equal in efficacy between Nocturnal and Diurnal Sects; in both cases, they're nearly identical clones of Succor and Medica II respectively, that each have a notable flaw (Noct AH is half a second slower to cast than Succor, Diurnal AH has a 5y shorter radius than Medica II).


The problem lies solely with Aspected Benefic. In Nocturnal Sect, Aspected Benefic is a highly situational skill that is only worth using over Benefic I/II in very specific, niche scenarios, and isn't very good even in its niche.
In Diurnal Sect, Aspected Benefic is a general-purpose heal that is almost always worth using in conjunction with Benefic and Benefic II - and it isn't very good in its general purpose role.

So given the choice between a mediocre skill that you should only be using in certain scenarios in certain fights, and a mediocre skill that you should be using in almost every fight, it is fair to say that Diurnal is generally the better of the two Sects, but the difference is pretty razor-thin. In my opinion, a lot of people misidentify the problem as being the Sect, and not that Aspected Benefic in general is a mediocre skill that is simply slightly less mediocre in Diurnal Sect.

In casual content like Light Party dungeons and Normal Mode Alexander, either Sect is fine.

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Originally Posted by Crater

People honestly really exaggerate how "bad" Nocturnal Sect is. At a base level it's just fine, and arguably is the better stance overall when it comes to all of your non-aspected heals.

- A 5% boost to healing power is probably a more useful passive effect overall than a 5% boost to speed, even if the speed boost is (arguably/in my opinion) more fun and interesting.
- I'd take a 10% damage shield that is only usable during phase transitions over a HoT bubble that is never more useful than what I can do with my GCDs (Collective Unconscious).
- Aspected Helios is roughly equal in efficacy between Nocturnal and Diurnal Sects; in both cases, they're nearly identical clones of Succor and Medica II respectively, that each have a notable flaw (Noct AH is half a second slower to cast than Succor, Diurnal AH has a 5y shorter radius than Medica II).


The problem lies solely with Aspected Benefic. In Nocturnal Sect, Aspected Benefic is a highly situational skill that is only worth using over Benefic I/II in very specific, niche scenarios, and isn't very good even in its niche.
In Diurnal Sect, Aspected Benefic is a general-purpose heal that is almost always worth using in conjunction with Benefic and Benefic II - and it isn't very good in its general purpose role.

So given the choice between a mediocre skill that you should only be using in certain scenarios in certain fights, and a mediocre skill that you should be using in almost every fight, it is fair to say that Diurnal is generally the better of the two Sects, but the difference is pretty razor-thin. In my opinion, a lot of people misidentify the problem as being the Sect, and not that Aspected Benefic in general is a mediocre skill that is simply slightly less mediocre in Diurnal Sect.

In casual content like Light Party dungeons and Normal Mode Alexander, either Sect is fine.

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In casual content you could never activate a Sect and still finish the fight.

Noct's shortcomings are definitely worth bringing up (again and again, until some improvement is seen). I wouldn't downplay the disadvantage of Aspected Helios (N) vs. Aspected Helios (D) since the latter grants far greater healing and further helps to free the AST from the GCD with the stacking HoT. Succor works as well as it does with the SCH kit despite being weak from a sheer HP-restoration perspective in part because the fairy provides healing full-time healing support on her own GCD; the Noct AST in most ways that pertain to healing mimics a fairy-less SCH, while a Diurnal AST at least mimics the sort of regen capability that gives WHM improved potency/mp and set-it-and-forget-it heals to reduce the demand on the GCD.

In short, Noct really does deserve attention since it's very lackluster outside of a few specific uses, and the Sect's synergy with CU, CO, and Time Dilation (as far as any added healing bonus is concerned) is abysmal. At least Diurnal squeezes a little extra lemonade out of the lemon skills that are CU and CO (I'll take the free regen over the almost-never-needed damage reduction), and the side benefit of extended shields with CO and TD is worthless.

However, I will agree that the 5% healing bonus from Noct is superior to the 5% speed boost from Diurnal. The speed is nice for when you get to spam DPS, but I'd switch those two if I could.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

My other suggestions

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I know I'm kind of interrupting everyone's arguing but I thought of one more suggestion. >w>

- Give Synastry a cooldown time of 60 seconds, instead of 120. While comparing AST to the other two jobs, WHM and SCH, neither really have a skill that compares with Synastry. However, WHM does get Tetragrammatron (a cost free, instant cure with a potency of 700), which has a cooldown of 60 seconds, while SCH has Lustrate (another instant cure, with a potency of 600), which gives them up to 3 instant cures every 60 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Fallen_Owl

*snip*

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It's not bad as in "can't complete content with it." It's bad as in "not as good as any other healing."

Noct Stance's 5% potency buff (19 on Benefic and 31 on Benefic II) is far outweighed by the regens that you get in Diurnal stance (100 per tick n Aspected Benefic and 50 per tick on Aspected Helios).

If you go Nocturnal Stance you can clear everything (except maybe Savage Alex). You'll just have a bit harder time in fights that don't have constant burst because as long as you have regens ticking anyways on Diurnal Stance, you will heal more than Nocturnal.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Once you understand that astro is complex beyond any other healer you will start to appreciate the power they offer.It's the only healer that requires innate knowlege of almost all other jobs ti maximize it's strength.

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Are even serious? Stop the drama please.
First: the only complex thing a player must know before start playing AST is to be able to heal everything just by spamming Benefic 1 and 2 and AB (a weaker regen to be honest) wow...much complex....very utility.....such powerful.....wow
Second: Tell me, how do you plan to master RNG? Like...for real? (SURE let me buff this tank :D *draws an ewer* ok... *shuffle* *draws another ewer* .......)
Third: Don't even try to make AST look godly, it isn't and it seems like every single person can see that except you.
You keep saying that AST is on par with WHM and SCH, really, the only way AST will ever be "on par" with WHM and SCH is if both lose their healing CDs.
And that's not going to happen, so.....