How is BLM in new expansion?

I was going to post something similar and which new rotations do you guys recommend. In 2 straight dungeons last night (with 2 BLMs), one of the players said I should stick with using Fire IV to do max damage now, but in the other run I was doing that rotation and one of the players said the DPS was bad... Since Fire II was nerfed, should I just focus on Enochian>Fire IV>Blizzard IV in small mob groups and Fire II/Flares on like, mobs of 4+? They still do decent damage. :confused:

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Originally Posted by ekental

• BLM is high risk, high reward (Enochian loss-> 30 sec penalty at worst and a huge DPS loss)
• SMN is low risk, high reward (worst case you recast 1 dot)

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So, I'm working on my things and I'm really starting to wonder if SMN really have that huge advantage. I do give they lose less damage in progression but SMN is no exception of progression. While I do agree there are things that probably people didn't take account that I did when I was leveling my SMN. Having to move while you cast a Miasma, Bio II or Shadow is annoying. You lose your cast and you lose DoT uptime. This usually go up to 3 to 6 seconds per DoT. Add that you've lost a GCD to cast a Ruin or Ruin II that's another 80 potency lost so it is about a 115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

I would also assume (I haven't work on SMN yet) that you won't Fester if you don't have your your 3 DoTs up so you could lose Dreadwyrm Trance uptime here. While Tri-Disaster looks great, you'll most-likely clip some DoTs as they won't end at the same time. This cooldown is best used during Dreadwyrm Trance to get extra Ruin III and buffed DoTs.

Well, I was one of the first to say that BLM has the obvious disadvantage and it's easy to see it as our spam ability is 504 Potency and if we lose Enochian we spam 324/468 Potency spells. Not to mention Thunderclouds are more viable without Enochian up.

I have the trust of my group to go as BLM so I'll go there and see for myself for Alex Savage. Melees are also affected by progression has they miss more positionals on clouded territories. If someone truly wish to point a job's supremacy, there's always been one and only one method : maths. Maths do not lie. Maths can be verified. Words can be twisted.

I also went back to Lalafell, my madness ended as Lalafells are the master race of BLM. I've done some work and I feel that with base 23 Piety in certain scenarios, Lalas end (with Piety buff) with 713 MP after a B3 which is enough to cast T1 over B1 which is still 60 extra potency and more buffed by Spell Speed than B1.

I'll have more time and I am currently building on rotations so bare with me on that.

There is one thing that is the absolute truth in progression. If you run WHM + AST. SMN is required for Super Virus.

I was just about to scream at you to flipping change back to Lalafell right now, or else.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

I find all of this a bit premature to be honest.

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Nah there's already stuff that's annoying. Like that ~0.6 seconds from a cast finishing to you getting the Astral/Umbral buff. There's no excuse not to fix that now that it's a big deal.

It's not that BLMs are less powerful (though they're probably more difficult to play now than most classes) it's that those little things seem much much bigger when you're playing as tight as BLMs need to be. They're hypersensitive to things most classes can shrug off and get punished far harder than those same classes.

Have we heard a good reason that there's not enough mana to fit 5 fires into a rotation now?

Yeah, there's a lot of speculation and shitflinging and whatnot but no matter what happens in Alex, that delay between cast and buff is going to be there. The class would be much better if the buffs worked exactly like they sounded instead of those little things there just to annoy you.

I've seen Black Mage in Bismark EX and most of them find a corner and turret during the fight while moving very little.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

I've seen Black Mage in Bismark EX and most of them find a corner and turret during the fight while moving very little.

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That's because of a quirk in the fight, a flaw in the tornado paths that doesn't touch an edge. Most raid mechanics are going to be more thorough and not allow for turreting

I dread the blm fotm after the summoner hype is finished.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

There is one thing that is the absolute truth in progression. If you run WHM + AST. SMN is required for Super Virus.

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I actually don't think that's true with Disable around (10% damage down on one attack, 60s recast, works on one attack). The way I look at it, if you can survive without Disable but with Supervirus, you can usually survive with Disable and without Supervirus. Both would be very handy to have but as of right now I wouldn't necessarily let it alter your comp choice, as, aside from a purely magical enemy here or there, or Akh Morns, one attack is all that's been needed to get debuffed in the past.

Also I think people might be a little in love with BLM right now (me included I admit) due to its supremacy in Ravana, a fight where you can 99% of the time stay in place in good kill groups. I think once some real mechanics, stuff where the entire team must participate with relative frequency and urgency, come about, I think people in progressive groups might become slightly disenchanted with BLM, at least for a time. Personally I'm just trying to up my skills with both for now and will roll from there on Tuesday.

BLM is sexier guys come on...

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

BLM is sexier guys come on...

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that's what i'm talking about!

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I actually don\\'t think that\\'s true with Disable around (10% damage down on one attack, 60s recast, works on one attack). The way I look at it, if you can survive without Disable but with Supervirus, you can usually survive with Disable and without Supervirus. Both would be very handy to have but as of right now I wouldn\\'t necessarily let it alter your comp choice, as, aside from a purely magical enemy here or there, or Akh Morns, one attack is all that\\'s been needed to get debuffed in the past.

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So you\\'re saying a group could get both disable and super virus =p

My group has sch whm so I don't have this issue. Ast is still the weakness healer right now for progression.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

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It's comparative.

First. SMN is more mobile because all of BLM's spells that matter have cast times and some of SMN ones do not, also Ruin II.

You've summed the opportunity cost & the potency cost of the spell you're casting, which makes no sense.
You only lose the potency of that spell cast at worst. Additionally you can immediately Ruin II to mitigate the issue.

On BLM, where if you can't stutter step it you scathe, which is an opportunity cost of Fire IV. That's a big loss. Compared to a SMN, which was at worst 3 sec off a DoT.

You already know the potency of every spell and you can math out what you lose if you move. Plenty of people have already done so. Hai Hai did some good work on it AFAIK.

BLM and SMN aren't that far off in DPS on a dummy. It takes no stretch of the imagination to see SMN pull ahead if there's reasonable movement in the new raid.

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Originally Posted by ekental

It's comparative.

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Yeah, it's to the point now where people see the truth. Run as a blm with a smn in any instance, and you'll quickly find our restrictions are pointless as the dmg is too similar. Imo, blm is currently pointless outside of style. Maybe that's how they wanted it? But, why not go with the class that has better aoe, the same (or higher with movement) dmg on single, and actual utility?

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

I just would very much like the class fixed :C

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Originally Posted by Elix_Moarbase

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

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We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

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Originally Posted by Clarkamite

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

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> 3 second casts
> Low HP Add Nuker

Pick One.

You're group may be "just fine" with a BLM, but it certainly would be better with a MNK or DRG instead of the BLM.

imo any of the casters aren't that amazing at the moment, any of the melees can keep up or surpass their dmg while not being penalized for movement, in the 3sec is takes for a blm to cast one spell I can do 2 skills + some ogcd skills, which adds up over a fight, if a caster makes one mistake their dps is gone, where as melee we just use another instant skill...

mobility is king in any mmo, nothing will ever change.

I've played with a few good SMNs, yes.. often I don't get to Flare before they kill everything else.

I can need some opionions/advices to Enochian.

After the opener, we extend Enochian up to 25 secs.
If we got a lot of movement now, sometimes i come a bit in trouble to extend it after 2nd Rotation up to 20 sec again.
Is it worth to stop my Rotation (maybe i could do one more FireIV, but Enochian would fall of after this) and cast Ice III and Ice IV after it, just to get my Enochain again before it falls off on cooldown? Cause otherwise i may not have Enochian for about 5-10secs (depends on when you refresh it to 25secs).

And as a European on a server stationed in Canada, it's quite hard if I just have to do 1 step cause of boss mechanic to stay in my Rotation. Astral Fire could be really increased up to 12 secs :(

Atm i'm just like "Naahh just one more F4 before i move --> baaam too late and a insanely hit from boss" in a orange area from boss. But if i would move, i may have to recast FireI too soon (/lose 1 FireIV) xD

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Originally Posted by ekental

It's comparative.

snip.

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So, I was told about that SMN Guide but I didn't read it. I'd never read 66 pages, it's too long. I like the guy and I've played with him and he's a really good player but when it comes to theorycraft... I'm not sure. 90% of what he wrote is most-likely unneeded and this includes the SMN vs BLM 13 pages he pointed. The only argument I need to say is his document's title is "The 3.0 Summoner: An Extensive Guide". There is zero reason to even say the word BLM as someone should compare them in a proper document. Even worst, since it's called a SMN Guide it leads to players that main SMN looks at it and not main BLM and obviously everybody main SMN will agree that their job is better. You can't get a better example of massive biased group there.

I'll agree that SMN lose less DPS than BLM on mobility but his claims has no maths. He did not compare a BLM rotation during movement versus a SMN rotation.

I'll give one quick example of DPS loss. First, you are wrong when you say you only lose the spell potency. A good Summoner will recast a dot when it's less than 3 seconds. So if you had to move while you are casting Miasma I (for example) you'd have to move away and ruin II. This means you'll lose 3 secs where this DoT does not exist on your target. This is a 35 potency lost. What would happen in that situation if your Miasma two had 2 secs left and Bio II 5 secs left. You'd lose an extra 35 potency for a total of 70 potency. If we extend this fictive scenario that you have to move, cast and move again. You'd lose a total of 105 potencies only for those 2 DoTs. There is a high possibility all Shadow Flare, Bio, Bio II and Miasma are delayed because of that although you can Bio easily has it is instant. You quickly realize that you can easily lose 105-135 or even 175 potency has you'll focus on surviving mechanics more than upkeep your maximal DPS during progression.

This situation for a BLM. F4 > Move Scathe > F1 > Move Scathe > F4 > F4. Scathe is 120 Potency. If you calc 100 Potency with 20% chance of double Potency. After 5 it gives you 600 Potency. 600/5 = 120. You gain 240 Potency for losing 504 Potency. It's a lost of 264 Potency which is a greater lost than Summoners.

Where I want to get: BLM are currently higher in single target DPS than Summoner. In that example, my Swiftcast is always for 2 secs left B4 Enochians or movement. I could replace 1 scathe for that swiftcast and save 384 Potency. Before someone says "You can't F1 > Scathe > F4 twice" I can easily without Leylines do F1 > F4 x3 > B3. And Swiftcast for SMN, at best saves about 70-100 potency.

So when you say you can easily compare SMN to BLM I am not sure Sir. I would like to see your maths.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

imo any of the casters aren't that amazing at the moment, any of the melees can keep up or surpass their dmg while not being penalized for movement, in the 3sec is takes for a blm to cast one spell I can do 2 skills + some ogcd skills, which adds up over a fight, if a caster makes one mistake their dps is gone, where as melee we just use another instant skill...

mobility is king in any mmo, nothing will ever change.

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You're trivializing movement's detriment for melee; maybe it's because you play NIN. Movement and mechanics can still greatly effect Melee DPS, especially MNK and DRG because of how these classes work. Missing a positional, while not the same as interrupting a cast, is still lost DPS. Losing GL or BotD is a major DPS loss.

The difference is a 1200 DPS parse on a dummy vs. a 800-870 parse on an actual boss. This can get better with experience on a particular fight, but you'll never get those dummy parses in practice due to movement and mechanics.

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

You're trivializing movement's detriment for melee; maybe it's because you play NIN. Movement and mechanics can still greatly effect Melee DPS, especially MNK and DRG because of how these classes work. Missing a positional, while not the same as interrupting a cast, is still lost DPS. Losing GL or BotD is a major DPS loss.

The difference is a 1200 DPS parse on a dummy vs. a 800-870 parse on an actual boss. This can get better with experience on a particular fight, but you'll never get those dummy parses in practice due to movement and mechanics.

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I agree, movements means it's nearly impossible to hit 100% positional for melee. Even more true during progression.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

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There are some points that you're missing here.
Depending on the nature of the movement, SMN has a few tools minimize the downtime of his casts. For example: T13 Megaflare. You see the cast coming and your DoT has 3 seconds left. Instead of refreshing the DoT, you can use Ruin2, then move while GCD runs and refresh it afterwards. Alternatively, you can decide to refresh your DoTs early if you know that a movement-heavy mechanic will come.

Though you could argue that BLM can do the same, it's not truly right because your FireIV rotation is limited on the duration of AF3 and Enochian, especially the former restricts you very much because you can only use 2 GCDs (3 when switching to UB3) before you have to use Fire1 again.

Another point is that FireIV has a 3 second cast time (no spellspeed) vs. the 2.5 seconds of SMN DoTs. This can be crucial when slide-casting out of AoEs, so SMN might not lose a GCD where the BLM will definitely do.

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

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I've thought about it and wondered if its worth it, but you end up waiting for mana after your B3 cast, and you're enochian timer is even tighter iirc. I'm not sure if its worth it but i've not put much thought into it.

Do you have some hard numbers on this? (Potency lost/gained, what piety is required?).

Just ran some tests again.
You need 276/277 Piety, which amounts to 269 base Piety + party PIE buff.
The specific condition where the rotation is possible is when you have full mana, use F3 to switch from UB3 to AF3 and you get another mana tick after UB3 wears off.
During the first Enochian rotation (30s), it is doable even when waiting for a full mana tick.
During the second Enochian rotation (25s), you will have to Swiftcast B4, else you will lose Enochian. If you're able to use this rotation during both rotations, there is no need to Swiftcast B4, since Enochian CD is only about 5-7s.

Another sweet side effect is: If you have full mana, use B4 and then go into AF3 with F3 without an UB3 mana tick (which means you have [(Full Mana) - (B4 cost) - (F3 cost)] ), 277 Piety will leave you enough mana to use B4 after casting F4 > F4 > F1 > F4 > F4 > B3, which is normally not possible, thus saving a mana tick.

Potency gain/loss is a bit edgy, because everything depends on timing.
Normally, it's a flat potency gain of one F4, maybe minus T1/2 because you don't have time to cast it during UB3.
Then, it depends on when the next mana tick comes. There is little potency loss when the next tick is right after you get into UB3, and a higher loss when you need to wait 2s. If you get a mana tick between the AF3 > UB3 transition, you can fill the gap with one B1 though.
Also, the rotation is longer (3-5 seconds), so one rotation may be at a higher potency, but I don't know how it affects the whole fight.

PS: Ugh, can I do something about this 1000 character limit?

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

PS: Ugh, can I do something about this 1000 character limit?

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Edit your post

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

You're trivializing movement's detriment for melee; maybe it's because you play NIN. Movement and mechanics can still greatly effect Melee DPS, especially MNK and DRG because of how these classes work. Missing a positional, while not the same as interrupting a cast, is still lost DPS. Losing GL or BotD is a major DPS loss.
The difference is a 1200 DPS parse on a dummy vs. a 800-870 parse on an actual boss. This can get better with experience on a particular fight, but you'll never get those dummy parses in practice due to movement and mechanics.

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I am not a mnk or drg, movement doesn't affect me, I don't have gl or botd, and I have a passive 10% or so movement speed, what I was getting at is a caster is punished way more for a mistake than a melee, and nin being punished the least of all due to mobility and not having stacks to maintain.

I see a major problem with a rotation of f4 x2 f1 f4x3. With the time for first f3 and b3 without end its about its 22.5 secs. With spell speed it's fine but youll waste any f3proc and you waste those stats. You'll have to wait many for b4 and lose it. Piety build is dead, making your rotation longer is a dps lost most the time.

I disagree with the first point. In the first Rotation, you can use F3 > B3 > SC B4, in the second Rotation you can F3 >B3, let Enochan fall off and reactivate it after switching to AF3 again. Because of the F3 proc, the Rotation is longer, so there's even less CD on Enochian.
How it affects total dps is something we'll have to see.

The couple of times in Ravana, when I've been able to start my first Enochian rotation with Firestarter, I've been able to do 2xF4 - F1 - 3xF4 easily and without worry of Enochian dropping.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

I disagree with the first point. In the first Rotation, you can use F3 > B3 > SC B4, in the second Rotation you can F3 >B3, let Enochan fall off and reactivate it after switching to AF3 again. Because of the F3 proc, the Rotation is longer, so there's even less CD on Enochian.
How it affects total dps is something we'll have to see.

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I disagree on that SC usage. SC is much better used to move around. It should be used for B4 only if you have to. It shouldn't be used to make your rotation longer. The way you are suggesting SC only works on a dummy and fights are dummy fights, you move around. You'd rather use your tools to cover mobility.

This would work if an AST would give you the MP reduction card

It always depends on the situation. You have to rethink your rotation when you have to move, when you have to burst, or under special circumstances like Ravana's increased damage taken during Liberation. If you know that there will be a period where you can turret, you might want to use SC to increase damage rather than saving it up for situations where B4 might fall off.

It also works fine if you have Ley Lines up, you can use your procs and still be in time for B4 even without SC.

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

You have to rethink your rotation when you have to move

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No. First of all, you have to meld materias on a crappy iLevel piece. You lose so much Int just for that extra Piety it's just not worth. And you'd put Enochian at greater risk? Not worth. If you'd use an accessory, you'd lose 9 Int to get that Piety. You wouldn't get more off-stats. Do you really expect to keep SC for every single of them when it could be use to save a F4 during movement.

Q8. Maintaining Enochian is really difficult. Are you planning to change this at all?

A8. We’re planning to make adjustments so that you can overwrite the extended effect when you reuse Enochian again. With this change it will feel a lot different. Additionally, we may make slight adjustments to the effect of Thunder while under the effect of Enochian since there is not much of a use at the moment.


Well, at least a few fixes :)

Q40. Do you have plans to increase the potency from potions and medicines to match the level cap increase?

A40. Currently the recast and the effect isn’t matching with the level, so we’re planning to make adjustments.



Potion flare comeback?