o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

I support the removal of parts even if I had just finished leveling both LW and Carpenter just to make parts for blacksmith items. However, with the removal of these often material-heavy parts, SE needs to also balance the DoL gathering amount to try and balance the system or there will be far too many materials on the market leading to DoL becoming rather useless as a main class.

In the current system, the player can easily get 2 or 3 items in one gathering attempt. The new system should greatly favor only getting 1 item per gathering attempt, and getting 2 or 3 items should be considered somewhat rare. Less materials, higher prices on the market wards, less selling to NPC, and thus less gil being pumped into the already inflated economy.

It sounds reasonable enough to me, given that they intend to make things such as treatises, multiple crafts, and so forth relevant again in the future (as noted in the original post). It seems to me that they're trying to simplify crafting to make it more accessible to everyone in the (relatively) short term, and then gradually add back in aspects that appeal to the more "hardcore" crafters. Overall improvement, more often than not, comes in a series of steps (back and forth), rather than the product of a single action. (And yes, I do realize the irony of that statement.)

I remember when the "Trial-Size Trial By <element>" quests introduced the Mini-Tuning Forks so that Summoners could get Avatars at level 20 instead of level 60+. Quite a few old-school summoners were pretty cheesed-off. There was much talk of "dumbing down summoners" and also of "no sense of accomplishment" and "no goals to look forward to anymore".

Turns out the talk amounted to nothing, the fears of summoner being broken forever never materialized, and summoners on a whole (as wells as FFXI) prospered and benefited greatly from the change.

A believe that this particular change in crafting will end up more like the change I described above, than the SWG/NGE scenario many of us fear.

Call me hopelessly hopeful. :D

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Originally Posted by Kiralai

It sounds reasonable enough to me, given that they intend to make things such as treatises, multiple crafts, and so forth relevant again in the future (as noted in the original post). It seems to me that they're trying to simplify crafting to make it more accessible to everyone in the (relatively) short term, and then gradually add back in aspects that appeal to the more "hardcore" crafters. Overall improvement, more often than not, comes in a series of steps (back and forth), rather than the product of a single action. (And yes, I do realize the irony of that statement.)

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This is what I hope the Dev's have planned. yes sir! /thumbsup

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

Takes one to know one, since you're calling me out on my level character and thinking I never crafted.

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I posted 2 quotes of yours and used those for my reply.
Stop using prejudiced thoughts and try to actual read posts for once.
At any rate, you bore me. :p
So i'll stop pointing off topic posts and move on~

Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis - AWESOME!
Revisions to Materials and Intermediary Materials - Great
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements - Meh
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements - Meh
Simplified Color Customization - Yay! :D

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i say remove stacking all together it would be more "realistic"

/sarcasm

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lol /10charrrr

I'm happy about the changes. It'll frees up some space too. I always thought crafting was a little convoluted with all the items needed.

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Originally Posted by Roll

I'm happy about the changes. It'll frees up some space too. I always thought crafting was a little convoluted with all the items needed.

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not a big crafter yet but yes i agree with you on your opinion.

This thread in one sentence:

"Help, the sky is falling!"

Everyone had the same crazy doomsday fears when the repair system was announced. Did that break the game? No.

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Originally Posted by Rjain

Cool, I spent 115,000 marks on 23 crafting treatises and they're removing them.

They'd better do something about that soon because that's retarded.

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Re-read the post.

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As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.

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What this is saying is the following. The new recipes will not "require" the use of skill books and synth support. Not that the books or support are being yanked out of the game.

For those that are still failing to see any difference let me lay it out. You know when you go to make something and the recipe says, "Required Guild support and sheeting training"? The new ones are not going to say that, support and the books will still effect them in a way that there still pondering over or are not quite ready to discuss yet. Thats all, End of line.


The landageddon faction, has it occurred to you that while crafters will stop using there resources to craft parts. That finished items will have to be created in bulk to make up the difference in xp gain? Yea that example they listed was much lower in terms of material usage. how ever when the crafter has to make that four or five times for the same gain to xp, i would think the demand on your end is going to be right about the same. Not to mention you guys are getting a new shiny to go after as well. catalysts aint going to dig/chop/fish them self's up.


Now as to my own response, When i read this post the first thing that poped into my head was. So wait i will not have to spend 20 minutes preparing the mats to make one piece of equipment? and the chances of that effort going to hell in a hand basket is reduced due to the removal of arbitrary and sometimes ludicrous limitations and road blocks the system has in place? Sign me up twice!

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

This thread in one sentence:

"Help, the sky is falling!"

Everyone had the same crazy doomsday fears when the repair system was announced. Did that break the game? No.

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That's basically what I was trying to get at before but you said it in a much shorter and less offensive manner :p

Same to you Griss, I was trying to get those facts through earlier but I guess I just didn't word it properly lol. Not required =/= removed. I do wish I could like your post more than once though...

so im almost 50 in every craft, so this affects my greatly, but my opinion may be a bit odd on this matter

1) Some items take well over a half hour to make the materials for and then make the finished item, This is just downright rediculous and it is one of the main focuses of the change from what I can tell.
Especialy on lower level items.

There can be a balance given to it too, wher as some lower items may take 1 leatger, 1 cloth etc....up to 4-5 items tops, those rank 50 items can still take 8 items(multiple leather/cloth etc etc) to make the finished product.

2) HQing the items wont change much, hq mats in general even at the first tier are a pain to make. those who didnt care about making them before still wont care now. those who cared enough to go out of the way before will have a bit easier time doing them now as they wont have to make a mterial, from a material, from a material, from a material.

3) even though im almost 50 in all crafts i can see the impact this will have on leveling. and that is my only major complaint about the new system. I feel for people who will have to figure out new recipes for leather, armor, blacksmithing, since those are gonna be hit real hard by the parts change as thats what you almost solely leveled on.

4) the removal of training/support i am gonna hold judgement on til they decide what they will do with them. we know they wont be forgotten or thrown out completely, but we wont know til they tell us or show us whats planned.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

So because you can't level as fast really is your only complaint? It's not the fact it can help bring more people into crafting but you won't be able to blow up to 50 in the rest of your craft classes to feel you accomplished something?

Edit: Oh and it only doesn't fix things from your POV. To others who only craft here and there or don't like to craft, the changes are huge for them. You know, the rest of the population and in most cases, the lack there of.

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Ok first of all I never complain that I couldnt level fast enough. I am one of the few people who think crafting levels at a good pace as it is. But most of the people who dont like crafting dont like it because its slow and boring. Removing al the easy grind Recipes by removing parts is going to make it harder and it will push more people away from crafting. That being said what I am trying to point out and I'll bold it for you this time People don't like the crafting system because its repetitive and boring. none of these changes are going to fix that. Yay no more parts! Oh wait you STILL have to collect materials to make things. Removing part with only serve to reduce the number of recipes people can use to SP. If they want to "Fix" crafting they HAVE to build a new UI. There is no way around it.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by DNO

dude did u even read what u wrote? this is what YOU wrote:
"LOL.. put up for sale? and who will buy it, if everyone can make them now?"

that means YOU think everyone can make things. i was talking about the idea that FROM WHAT YOU SAID that everyone can make things so nothin will sell.

did you just troll yourself into a new world where you dont even know what you wrote?

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Dude.. if you dont understand a simple sentence, while others did and responded to it, you should consider stop taking Drugs.. or whatever kind of hallucinogenic Stuff you are taking.

Think there's alot of overhyping this change I don't think it's going to be as bad as some claim imo.

Glad it's being changed. Finding all the parts for one synthesis cost as much as that final product being sold sometimes. Some things are just TOO expensive to buy right now for low-mid rank gear.

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Originally Posted by odintius

Think there's alot of overhyping this change I don't think it's going to be as bad as some claim imo.

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It's not going to look bad when they do it. They are going to keep the old stuff and add the new stuff then phase out the old stuff. So your not going to see it coming when all your simple grinding recipes disappear. As far as the treatises are concern it will likely go, "We planning something." "We planning something." "We planning something." "Uh.. we just decided not to do anything with that so sorry but your Guild Marks are just going to be gone."

To all the people who do not like the recipe change, ask yourself this: will you decide to use the new recipes, or use the old ones while they're still in the game? (not just because you still have the materials for them)

Sure, it may have been fun to some extent, but there were way too many parts that lead to equipment not being made.

All I personally felt they needed to do was reduce the number of different crafting materials by maybe half or so (how many different types of copper do we need?), and fix the crafting levels needed to make the items.

I do think this is overkill, but at least it's staying more true to the original setup, and we're not making armor out of different grades of mysterious goo.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Glad it's being changed. Finding all the parts for one synthesis cost as much as that final product being sold sometimes. Some things are just TOO expensive to buy right now for low-mid rank gear.

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This is correct. That why a lot people, including myself, would like adjustments of Recipes. BUT.. taking out Stuff like Subclasses, which you need for some more difficult Recipes to get a better Result, has nothing to do with Recipes.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Certainly, the existing system has problems. No one is disputing that. And the recipe system certainly needed some revisions.

However, a large part of why it is difficult to find lower rank gear has little to do with the recipe system, and everything to do with the other systems. The very small number of bazaar slots creates a huge opportunity cost for people that wish to sell low rank items. Further, the speed of ranking up at low ranks leads to very low demand for low rank items, simply because many people do not stay at low ranks for long. Even further, the tight inventory system (considering multiple classes worth of gear, gathered materials, and event gear "clutter") leads to further lower demand for lower rank gear.

Finally, the lack of buy orders (i.e. broken "seek item" feature) hampers everything. I would gladly, happily create items to fulfill buy orders. Even low rank items. I actually enjoy making items, just for the sake of making items, and knowing that someone will use them.

In the end, these changes won't make a bunch of low-rank items appear on the markets. The same forces that keep them from being sold will still exist.

These changes will, I believe, instead drive away those people that enjoy crafting for itself. You will be left with only the people that (a) primarily fight, and have no interest in making items for other people (b) those that wish to make a lot of gil crafting. And what will the result of that be?

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Not that these are bad points, but the main problem is that you can equip a rank 48 body/crafting piece as a rank 1 craft, why buy low rank gear when I can use my 40+ robe and doublet?

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Originally Posted by Quills

To all the people who do not like the recipe change, ask yourself this: will you decide to use the new recipes, or use the old ones while they're still in the game? (not just because you still have the materials for them)

Sure, it may have been fun to some extent, but there were way too many parts that lead to equipment not being made.

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is not "way too many parts" that lead to equipment not being made it's the 1 random high lvl ingreadent in most synths and the lack of a good selling system. this is what needs to change

I'm really not sure how parts became the fore front of this argument.. Who cares, Simpler Recipes are a good thing. What we should be concerned about it what they are going to do with Guild Support and Treatises because they have repeatedly shown they're love of "Planning something" and then just not doing anything with it..

What we got today was a statement from SE that said they are going to strip our classes of everything and absolutely nothing to replace it with.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Dude.. if you dont understand a simple sentence, while others did and responded to it, you should consider stop taking Drugs.. or whatever kind of hallucinogenic Stuff you are taking.

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It's just DNO, disregard what he posts.

He'll ignore all of your points.
He'll ignore all of your facts.
He'll still think he's right.
He'll throw a fit if he doesn't like something.

Just let him rant, he'll fade away like every other person who posts the way he does (troll).

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Ok first of all I never complain that I couldnt level fast enough. I am one of the few people who think crafting levels at a good pace as it is. But most of the people who dont like crafting dont like it because its slow and boring. Removing al the easy grind Recipes by removing parts is going to make it harder and it will push more people away from crafting. That being said what I am trying to point out and I'll bold it for you this time People don't like the crafting system because its repetitive and boring. none of these changes are going to fix that. Yay no more parts! Oh wait you STILL have to collect materials to make things. Removing part with only serve to reduce the number of recipes people can use to SP. If they want to "Fix" crafting they HAVE to build a new UI. There is no way around it.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

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I didn't PUT words in your mouth I asked a question based off of what you wrote. It's ALWAYS going to be repetitive and boring to craft which is why most players don't. I'll give you THIS piece of advice to concentrate on then that I placed in a similar post so you can read it and give me YOUR opinion on it as I'm not trying to step on toes or put WORDS in ANYONES mouth: If you wish to keep the sub classes for the realism then FFS, make those classes the same level or just few above or even below for once what is currently being used. Maybe THAT can be set as a post for the devs crafters?

You want them to keep parts so leveling is less obtrusive and stays as is, maybe you could start a thread with dev tags with just that request. Otherwise, the circle of debte won't end until they release the patch and people actually SEE wtf they are looking to do.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Kiote

What I'm saying is that these fixes do not FIX anything. They make leveling crafting harder without actually altering the method by which crafting is performed. Everyone know crafting needs to be fixed, but none of the "fixes" being implemented address the problem they simply dumb down the system and lower SP/hr

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Notice the mention of lower SP/hr which indicates lack of speed upon which to level. Your words in black and white not me putting words in your mouth.

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Originally Posted by Nero

This is correct. That why a lot people, including myself, would like adjustments of Recipes. BUT.. taking out Stuff like Subclasses, which you need for some more difficult Recipes to get a better Result, has nothing to do with Recipes.

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It has nothing to do with Recipes but it makes it easier to make those recipes? You just answered your own question.
some people won't be able to make their higher level recipes as easy as it was. Which is a good thing I guess.

Only time will tell ESPECIALLY since the materia system is coming soon.

I think this thread is mostly filled with people that spent a lot of time crafting - probably too much - and now want some kind of repayment for all of their lost time now that the system is becoming simpler.

Well, you'll probably not get it, just like none of us are getting a free chocobo, epic undergarments that say "I survived 1.0 through 1.19" or even a pat on the back for being here all this time.

All the hard work, vacation days you burn and evenings wasted will always be lost. The game will always get easier, only. Might as well get used to it now.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

What we got today was a statement from SE that said they are going to strip our classes of everything and absolutely nothing to replace it with.

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No what they said was this:
"•Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements
As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.

* Alternate uses are being considered for crafting facilities and treatises." <--- This

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Originally Posted by Okiura

is not "way too many parts" that lead to equipment not being made it's the 1 random high lvl ingreadent in most synths and the lack of a good selling system. this is what needs to change

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Not sure about that. I assume they added higher rank materials so people would buy them if they couldn't make it, which in theory would move the market. but it is frustrating for people who want to make everything on their own.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

* Alternate uses are being considered for crafting facilities and treatises." <--- This

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is what they said about surplus.

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Originally Posted by Alexis_Arteme

I think this thread is mostly filled with people that spent a lot of time crafting - probably too much - and now want some kind of repayment for all of their lost time now that the system is becoming simpler.

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No one is upset about lost time. These changes are going to slow crafting down not speed it up.

Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis - mostly good (though maybe a bit overkill)
Revisions to Materials and Intermediary Materials - Good
Removal of Secondary Skill Requirements - Not really necessary, but not terrible
Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements - Not really necessary, but not terrible
Simplified Color Customization - Best Part!

I generally like these changes, though I would say that it isn't necessary to simplify recipes too much, or make it so you don't need anything from another craft to make your stuff.

I do agree with getting rid of tunic: front, inside, sleeve, back etc. I mean that was just ridiculous.

Also needing 8 hard to find food ingredients for almost every cooking synth is really annoying.

I never had much of a problem going to the guild and grabbing synthesis support - but it did suck getting a goldsmithing leve in LL which required level 2 support... that was dumb.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

No one is upset about lost time. These changes are going to slow crafting down not speed it up.

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Pray, tell. How would these changes make crafting slower?

Why don't they just make syntesizing more fun... the item system is almost-perfect... i think crafting would be more insteresting if you could see the numbers behind it...and have a better control over crafting... for exemple... Standard : 56% chance of success, Rapid : 30% chance of success... and so on... and actually see the difference the skills make... when I use fullmillment It seems to be a 99% fail.

And also...you should be able to sell more items with the retainer... that way those crafting components items would be sellabe... why sell a brass buckle when you can make more money selling the brass ingots.

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Originally Posted by Quills

Not sure about that. I assume they added higher rank materials so people would buy them if they couldn't make it, which in theory would move the market. but it is frustrating for people who want to make everything on their own.

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well i have lots of armour pices ready to be made into gear to be sold but almost all of them are hampered by 1-2 mats that make no sence, i.e i need a thread for a lvl 20 craft but to make the thread i neeed to be almost 40, or i need lumber to make a weapon but to make the lumber i need to be 10 lvls higher to make the lumber from the log, what i make i sell @ a few k more then the mats cost which is normally bout 20-30k less then everyone else but i have all these mats sitting here waiting on some one to make this 1 high lvl item that i can't make myself yet, and the way the selling system works is usless for buying a single mat.

i don't blame ppl for selling stuff so high though my issue is not with making the gear if you didn't have struggle so much to buy the mats it really wouldn't be all that bad. and the way dyes work has to be changed.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

No one is upset about lost time. These changes are going to slow crafting down not speed it up.

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How is this going to slow crafting down? Needing hemp cloth to make a tunic instead of 8 hempen tunic parts will speed things up considerably.

If you mean grinding crafts, maybe, maybe not. There are still lots of mats to skill up on (leather, yarns, cloth etc)

They had to make these changes so that when they try to get people to pay for the game there is actually some low level armor for sale (or it is easy enough for a lowbie to make it themselves)

I was making some hemp goodies for fun and it took SO LONG and of course no noob could afford to actually compensate me for the time it took... which is why almost nothing more complicated than a hemp turban is for sale at any one time.

oh and with that... you should see the actual effect of food... culinarian class is just bad (takes alot of slots in inventory, no one buys food or they sell for 10% of the cost, needs a lot of items)... When I stopped working on the culinary class... I opened up more than 80 inventory slots.

Parts = 1 Mat/Synth

No parts = 4+Mats/synth

More Mats = More Stuff to Buy/Gather/or Make

I don't understand how anyone with a head screwed on straight can look at these items and say: "Wow, what a terrible change!".

This game is cluttered to the brim with convoluted systems that are way too complex for the sake of being complex. They don't make the game interesting, or challenging. They make it a nuisance. I absolutely love all of these changes, especially the removal of parts. That's debatably the best change in the entire post for me. Parts only serve to make the crafting process more complex (not difficult, just annoyingly complex), a system that is boring to begin with.

I'm glad SE is making changes like this because as a player that doesn't enjoy playing this game due to its over complexity in everything and how long it takes to do even simple tasks, these are the things that will pull me in more and be willing to pay SE a monthly fee when that time comes. I was a huge fan of FFXI, and an even bigger fan of RPGs. I want to play an accessible, challenging, social RPG. Not some kind of bloated unfun, nonsocial time-sink that requires 15 minutes of shopping + 10 minutes of crafting just to make a new robe from scratch.