Ninja: Walk in shadow.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

We don't know if Sneak Attack is actually viable, as amazing as it sounds. Hiding Heavies you by 50% (meaning you might have to walk like a snail to get to boss) and it doesn't work on enemies with "special sight," which may mean Trick and Sneak Attack are purely PvP/open-world if that means the attacks won't work on those enemies.

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This is where probably a teleport will come to play as it's teleport to area skill and does not connect an attack (unlike monk's one).

Here's a question I haven't seen asked yet, What will Ninjas LB be?

They're DEX based and so far the DEX LB is just the healer one, will ninja use this aswell?

Will they just be given the STR LB?

Or have they created a new LB we have yet to see?

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

They're DEX based and so far the DEX LB is just the healer one, will ninja use this aswell?

Will they just be given the STR LB?

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LB isn't tied to your stats at all. That's why a BRD can use the healer LB to the same effectiveness a healer can. Basically, I expect the NIN LB to be the melee one.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

This is where probably a teleport will come to play as it's teleport to area skill and does not connect an attack (unlike monk's one).

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The Suiton buff allows the usage of Trick Attack of Sneak Attack for 10 seconds after it is used.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

The Suiton buff allows the usage of Trick Attack of Sneak Attack for 10 seconds after it is used.

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So I'm thinking Suiton->Perfect Dodge->Sneak Attack->Shikuchi back to safety. OR Suiton->Perfect Dodge->Shikuchi->Sneak Attack->run back to safety.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

So I'm thinking Suiton->Perfect Dodge->Sneak Attack->Shikuchi back to safety. OR Suiton->Perfect Dodge->Shikuchi->Sneak Attack->run back to safety.

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Why sneak attack? Your losing dps getting to the front of the target and losing dps by using that over Trick Attack.

It seems like Trick Attack is for Party and Sneak Attack for Solo. That way your already positioned perfectly for the two and get the most dps available to you.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Why sneak attack? Your losing dps getting to the front of the target and losing dps by using that over Trick Attack.

It seems like Trick Attack is for Party and Sneak Attack for Solo. That way your already positioned perfectly for the two and get the most dps available to you.

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You have your skill names mixed up. Sneak attack is the one that gives 500 potency from front. Trick Attack is 400 from the rear.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

You have your skill names mixed up. Sneak attack is the one that gives 500 potency from front. Trick Attack is 400 from the rear.

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If you can do 1,000 potency over the 10 seconds the debuff is up, TA is still more damage than SA. If you're in a party, it's not even close, because 1,000 potency should take, like, 1 GCD.

EDIT: Also, doing the math, even if you're just spamming Spinning -> Gust -> Aeolian, that's 820 potency from skills and 300 from AA over 10 seconds. 1,120 total potency over 10 seconds (roughly). That means TA will boost this by 112, which brings TA's total potency to 512. Only reason to use SA is if you're solo and the enemy will die before 10 seconds pass.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

You have your skill names mixed up. Sneak attack is the one that gives 500 potency from front. Trick Attack is 400 from the rear.

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Errmm no I didn't; In a party you'll straight up do more damage with 400 potency and 10% damage increase for all party members, Infact a good burst rotation a Ninja will do 120 - 130 additional potency on their own. Making Trick Attack 530 and Sneak Attack 500. Now say the other 3 - 4 dps do the same, thats an extra 390 - 520 potency across the party. Not including tank damage and what not. It just out and out eclipses Sneak Attack.

Plus as mentioned your postioned perfectly for each one, in a party you'll be standing at the rear, so your already for TA, the opposite is also true when solo where you'll be set up perfect for SA.


EDIT: Viridiana, Doing some theory crafting in another thread found the optimal burst rotation after trick attack of mutilate --> Kassutsu --> Raiton --> Spinnning Edge --> Shadow Fang --> ?maybe a 5th depending on kraiton time? came at at about 1182 potency with a crit over the 10 seconds not including auto attacks, up to 1345 with a second spinning edge.

Infact If it's definite that you can get 5 abilites with Raiton, you can infact use Aeoilian Combo for a wopping 1529 potency. That's an additional 139 potency for Ninja over 10 seconds not including Auto Attack. Remembering also that Kraiton will be a crit hit aswell.

The other rotation viable finsher rotation for below 20% is

Mutilate : 360 [396] - 2s -> Spinning Edge : 150 [165] - 4s -> Gust Slash : 200 [220] - 6s -> Aeoilian Edge : 320 [352] - 8s - Assasinate : 200 [220] - 9s -

1353 Potency, 123 additional potency.

But thats if you want to be sure you don't mess up your Ninjutsu and wanna a clear 1350 potency. (also only works if they will live long enough for Mutilate to run out)

Disclaimer: This is only theory and needs to be tested, it could and most likely is wrong at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Errmm no I didn't; In a party you'll straight up do more damage with 400 potency and 10% damage increase for all party members, Infact a good burst rotation a Ninja will do 120 - 130 additional potency on their own. Making Trick Attack 530 and Sneak Attack 500. Now say the other 3 - 4 dps do the same, thats an extra 390 - 520 potency across the party. Not including tank damage and what not. It just out and out eclipses Sneak Attack.

Plus as mentioned your postioned perfectly for each one, in a party you'll be standing at the rear, so your already for TA, the opposite is also true when solo where you'll be set up perfect for SA.

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According to patch notes, Sneak attack does 500 base potency from front. In terms of base potency, sneak attack is stronger than trick attack. If positioning is your argument, you can Shikuchi into position immediately after the attack.

What damage buff does Trick Attack get that Sneak Attack doesn't?

are you ready anything, like at all?

Positioning is not at all my arguement it's just a bonus point.

Sneak Attack does 500 Potency.

Trick Attack Does 400 Potency + damage +10% for 10 seconds.

This buff is for all party members.

A ninja can easily put out 120 additional potency in that 10 second window without auto attacks.

so now we have Sneak Attack 500 and Trick Attack 520 + party's additional dps in 10s

Therefor Trick Attack is the better DPS, no question.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

EDIT: Viridiana, Doing some theory crafting in another thread found the optimal burst rotation after trick attack of mutilate --> Kassutsu --> Raiton --> Spinnning Edge --> Shadow Fang --> ?maybe a 5th depending on kraiton time? came at at about 1182 potency with a crit over the 10 seconds not including auto attacks, up to 1345 with a second spinning edge.

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Yeah, I was basically trying to demonstrate that even if you're otherwise failing miserably and just mashing 1-2-3, TA still beats SA :p

If what I'm reading over in the MNK Temple Reborn thread is right (and I'm sure it is), 15% attack speed means you can easily fit 5 attacks into 10 seconds. Of course, their 10 second window starts with an oGCD instead of GCD ability, but they also have to ramp up to 15% over 3 GCDs, so I think that's a wash. As such, I'd expect that second one to actually be more like Mutilate (Assassinate)->Spinning->Fang->Spinning->Gust, or 1,500 potency, 1,650 after TA. . .not counting what has to be well over 350 from AA damage, bringing the total to over 2k worth of attacks. I mean, if Mutilate will run the duration, so would Fang. >_>

For the first chain. . .TA(Kassatsu)->Mutilate->Raiton->Spinning->Fang->Debuff drops? Yeah, hard to tell without hands-on and seeing how long Raiton takes to do and what it does to the GCD.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

are you ready anything, like at all?

Positioning is not at all my arguement it's just a bonus point.

Sneak Attack does 500 Potency.

Trick Attack Does 400 Potency + damage +10% for 10 seconds.

This buff is for all party members.

A ninja can easily put out 120 additional potency in that 10 second window without auto attacks.

so now we have Sneak Attack 500 and Trick Attack 520 + party's additional dps in 10s

Therefor Trick Attack is the better DPS, no question.

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Ahh major misstep on my part. Been reading patch notes on my iPhone so all the text is smaller. Totally skipped over the buff in trick attack. So, yeah, trick attack is better.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I'd expect that second one to actually be more like Mutilate (Assassinate)->Spinning->Fang->Spinning->Gust, or 1,500 potency, 1,650 after TA. . .not counting what has to be well over 350 from AA damage, bringing the total to over 2k worth of attacks. I mean, if Mutilate will run the duration, so would Fang. >_> For the first chain. . .TA(Kassatsu)->Mutilate->Raiton->Spinning->Fang->Debuff drops? Yeah, hard to tell without hands-on and seeing how long Raiton takes to do and what it does to the GCD.

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Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Fang [264] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] Final Total 1210 [1610 with TA base potency]

Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] ->Aeoilian [352] ->Spinning [165] (Fang no buff after) Final Total 1298 [1698 with TA base potency]

Those two really are just personal preference, I'm a combo guy who likes big numbers so I'll most probably go the second rotation.

with Kraiton though

Mutilate [396] ->Kraiton [396!] ->Spin [165] ->Fang [240] = 1197 [1597]

Now if you can get in a 5th attack which is possible then you have 2 choices.

Above + Spinning Edge [165] = 1362 [1762]

-Fang + Gust [220] -> Aeoilian [352] = 1529 [1929] (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Fang [264] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] Final Total 1210 [1610 with TA base potency]

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Err. . .if you're counting all of Mutilate ticks for 396, shouldn't you be counting all of Fang's ticks? 200 up front and a 240 dot makes 440 [484] potency. That's 1410 [1830] final total, I do believe.

Not gonna speculate much on the Raiton combo until I see live gameplay and how much time it takes. Just gonna point out your Fang numbers are wrong there, too. :p

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Err. . .if you're counting all of Mutilate ticks for 396, shouldn't you be counting all of Fang's ticks? 200 up front and a 240 dot makes 440 [484] potency. That's 1410 [1830] final total, I do believe.

Not gonna speculate much on the Raiton combo until I see live gameplay and how much time it takes. Just gonna point out your Fang numbers are wrong there, too. :p

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Okay you are right and i'm stupid. (too hype!)

Let me re - adjust everything.

Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Fang [484] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] Final Total 1430 [1830 with TA base potency]

Mutilate [396] ->Kraiton [396!] ->Spin [165] ->Fang [484] -> Spinning Edge [165] = 1341 [1841] 1606 [2006]

So Raiton if done well may be able to out put a bit more damage but that does seem like the best rotation. If you go into straight into Aeoilian Edge off this thats carrying it on with 320 potency so gonna be a nice burst of damage overall.

Edit: If development buffs are true, add 60 base potency to Shadow Fang, or 66 with TA.

So the best burst damage rotation on paper would be

Mutilate [396] ->Kraiton [396!] ->Spin [165] ->Fang [517] -> Spinning Edge [165] = 1474 [1874] 1639 [2039]

Thats over ~12 seconds not taking into account auto attacks and buffs.

where to place BfB and IR i would personally go

[Blood for Blood] --> [Suiton] --> [Internal Release] --> [Trick Attack] --> [Mutilate] --> [Kassutsu] --> [Raiton] --> [Spinning Edge] --> [Shadow Fang] --> [Spinning Edge] -

As trying to weave a buff into that 10 second window could cost you time, and blood for blood has a long enough duration to carry onto the end.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Okay you are right and i'm stupid. (too hype!)

Let me re - adjust everything.

Mutilate [396] ->Spinning [165] ->Fang [484] ->Spinning [165] ->Gust [220] Final Total 1430 [1830 with TA base potency]

So Raiton if done well may be able to out put a bit more damage but that does seem like the best rotation. If you go into straight into Aeoilian Edge off this thats carrying it on with 320 potency so gonna be a nice burst of damage overall.

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This is the first time I've ever gotten involved in serious number crunching, so please forgive my errors. But does anyone have an idea of how this stacks up against the "standard" MNK rotation in terms of potency? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

This is the first time I've ever gotten involved in serious number crunching, so please forgive my errors. But does anyone have an idea of how this stacks up against the "standard" MNK rotation in terms of potency? Just curious.

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Don't have the numbers but, I believe in the end mnk will still come out on top, but not by much. It might be extremely close between the two in an actual combat situation.

Yeah without looking at the numbers and just by the skills themselves I'd say Ninja will be lower than Monk DPS wise, it has a few more Support abilities.

With that in mind though Ninja will have higher burst DPs like bard and don't be surprised to see them sailing at the top of the aggro charts at the start of a fight. (no way to lower emnity generated)

Hide --> Trick Attack --> Perfect Dodge --> Featherfoot might just be the opener :P

I actually like the idea of Ninja not soaring to the top of the DPS charts. Hopefully that will thin out the crowd and keep this from becoming Final Fantasy: Ninja Gaiden Expansion Pack.

@Jakz

Lol this, they'll suffer like mnk in this regard.

Okay new point of discussion; remember those development traits way back when, well with the confirmation of DEX they may actually be correct.

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ＤＥＸアップ (Lv8) - DEX up.
-> ＤＥＸを2上昇する - Increases DEX by 2.

落下ダメージ軽減 (Lv14) - Fall damage reduction.
-> 落下による被ダメージを軽減する - Reduces the damage caused by falling.

ＤＥＸアップII (Lv16) - DEX up II.
-> ＤＥＸを4上昇する - Increases DEX by 4.

ステルス効果アップ (LV20) - Stealth effect up.
-> ステルス中の移動速度低下を軽減する - Reduces the movement speed reduction when in stealth.

ＤＥＸアップIII (Lv24) - DEX up III.
-> ＤＥＸを6上昇する - Increases DEX by 6.

移動速度アップ (Lv28) - Movement speed up.
-> 自身の移動速度を上昇させる - Increases personal movement speed.

単体特化毒Buff効果アップ (Lv32)- Single specialized poison buff effect up.
-> 単体特化毒Buff（猛毒）の与ダメージ上昇効果を20％に上昇する - Single specialized poison buff (Highly Toxic) increases physical damage by 20%.

TPリジェネ付与効果アップ (Lv36)- TP Regen effect up.
-> TPリジェネ付与によるＴＰ回復効果の効果量を上昇する。 - Grants increased effective recovery amount of TP regen.

複数特化毒Buff効果アップ (Lv40) - Multiple specialized poison Buff effect up.
-> 複数特化毒Buffの与物理ダメージ上昇効果を10％に上昇する - Multiple specialized poison buff increases physical damage by 10%.

コンボB-1効果アップ (Lv44) - Combo B-1 effect up
-> コンボB-1の継続ダメージの威力を45に上昇する - Combo B-1 DoT increased to 45.

ナイフ投げPBAE効果アップ (Lv48) - Knife throwing PBAE (Player-based Area of Effect?) effect up.
-> ナイフ投げPBAEの威力を80に上昇する - Knife Throw PBAE power rises to 80.

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So translated to new ninja talk.

Level 8 - DEX +2

Level 14 - Fall Damage Reduced

Level 16 - DEX +4

Level 20 - Reduced movement speed penatly in stealth

Level 24 - DEX +6

Level 28 - Increased Movement Speed

Level 32 - Increase damage with poison up by 20% (up to 40% damage increase seems op, may be changed)

Level 36 - Increases effectiveness of Goad (lengthen time? or more per tick?)

Level 40 - Poison Damage increased to 30% (3% more than monk with GL3)

Level 44 - Shadow Fang DoT potency increased to 45 (470 overall potency, 517 with TA... Dayummmm)

Level 48 - Death Blossom increased to 180 potency?



I've bolded the ones I'm unsure on. Ofcourse they are subject to change but this does change some things if true.

More damage increase than monks with GL3, Shadow Fang is stupidly good, and with i expect well be at 75% speed while in hide, (likely 10% increase to movement speed and 20% reduction to the penalty)

Don't forget mnk has fist of fire stance. So mnks still come out on top by 2%....

Which isn't much lmao.

Ninja might be able to be the "other" mnk. Only time will tell. We just don't know the damage on the weapons. If they are as high as mnk and drgs, this could put drgs at the bottom of the melee pole and then I foresee nerf to nin or an over buff to drg later.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Yeah without looking at the numbers and just by the skills themselves I'd say Ninja will be lower than Monk DPS wise, it has a few more Support abilities.

With that in mind though Ninja will have higher burst DPs like bard and don't be surprised to see them sailing at the top of the aggro charts at the start of a fight. (no way to lower emnity generated)

Hide --> Trick Attack --> Perfect Dodge --> Featherfoot might just be the opener :P

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I promise you hide will not work on raid bosses... The skill even says, enemies with special sight make it pointless.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

I promise you hide will not work on raid bosses... The skill even says, enemies with special sight make it pointless.

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You realise that's in regard to sight? Hide - Trick Attack will still work just fine, aslong as the tank pulls after you use hide.

Its the same as the DoL hide where enemies 10 levels above can see you, but Trick Attack doesn't care if they can see you or not aslong as your invisible.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

You realise that's in regard to sight? Hide - Trick Attack will still work just fine, aslong as the tank pulls after you use hide.

Its the same as the DoL hide where enemies 10 levels above can see you, but Trick Attack doesn't care if they can see you or not aslong as your invisible.

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You do realize, that would be a massive DPS loss? Get in close enough so you can get close enough that the heavy doesn't cause you to lose DPS, you will pull aggro. Use ANY skill, hide will cancel. It can only be used out of combat... And if they decide to make it so bosses nullify hide, what then?

EDIT: And sneaking behind bosses won't work too well, since every raid boss I have seen, the rear of them causes aggro. You will pull aggro. It would be more effective to just open with a standard DPS rotation...

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

You do realize, that would be a massive DPS loss? Get in close enough so you can get close enough that the heavy doesn't cause you to lose DPS, you will pull aggro. Use ANY skill, hide will cancel. It can only be used out of combat... And if they decide to make it so bosses nullify hide, what then?

EDIT: And sneaking behind bosses won't work too well, since every raid boss I have seen, the rear of them causes aggro. You will pull aggro. It would be more effective to just open with a standard DPS rotation...

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I really don't think you understand what i'm getting at here, The movement speed loss is going to be a minimal amount, 20 - 25% seems to be the guess atm, so you may lose a second or 2 getting to the boss, which equates to 1 ability.

Trick Attack is off GCD, you you can hit it and jump straight into rotation no 2 second gcd to wait for.

so your losing 165 - 300 potency for 400 potency and a party based damage buff.


Just through pure numbers that is the best way too open. also the rear of them causes aggro? I'm not sure what your insinuating here, your not going to be sneaking behind youll run up as normal just invisible, the time you lose getting to the boss will give the tank enough time to get decent hold on aggro then you begin going nuts.

Remember Ninja invisible with the traits we have isn't the same speed as DoL invisible, it should be all accounts be viable to go into hide at the start of the fight. If not then you don't, maybe some fights it's more viable (boss doesn't move as far off the pull). Just saying on paper it's the best opening ability, in fact its equivalent to a firestarter proc. in that its your best damage ability, just free.

We can only wait and see.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

so your losing 165 - 300 potency for 400 potency and a party based damage buff.

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Giving a 10% boost right when everyone is popping all CDs? Yes, please!

But, yeah, a lot of this remains to be seen during actual gameplay. . .

I still wager it won't work merely due to the fact they may program it so you cannot use SATA when detected at all, outside of Suiton, that is.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

I still wager it won't work merely due to the fact they may program it so you cannot use SATA when detected at all, outside of Suiton, that is.

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I understand where you're coming from, but somehow I doubt that they would make a signature move of a ninja so useless. Then again, this is SE we're talking about, so anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

I understand where you're coming from, but somehow I doubt that they would make a signature move of a ninja so useless. Then again, this is SE we're talking about, so anything is possible.

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Suiton allows the usage of SATA without hide, SATA is on a 1 minute cool down.

EDIT: Also, because I had to test the, "Even if you're detected stealth won't break." Theory... The second you are detected, stealth breaks with Disciples of Land. So if raid bosses have special sight, like I assume, it will break instantly, meaning no opening TA without Suiton.

On another note, I'm wondering if Shikuchi is a "true" teleport, or will it function like Aetherial Manipulation in that if you manipulate through a cleave, you're getting smacked.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

On another note, I'm wondering if Shikuchi is a "true" teleport, or will it function like Aetherial Manipulation in that if you manipulate through a cleave, you're getting smacked.

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Yeah I was thinking that, wondering if I can teleport through an enemies field of vision without being spotted.

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

Yeah I was thinking that, wondering if I can teleport through an enemies field of vision without being spotted.

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What would be the practical application for that, aside from Hide being on cooldown or something? I'm asking because I'm thinking field of vision is only relevant when trying to avoid detection. Also, does hide function like Stealth, or is there a time limit on it? I can't remember if the patch notes mention anything about that.

You click/choose where you want to go, they showed how it functioned in the gameplay video. Its similar to how you would place Flamming Arrow,Shadow Flare, etc.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

You click/choose where you want to go, they showed how it functioned in the gameplay video. Its similar to how you would place Flamming Arrow,Shadow Flare, etc.

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I understand how it's executed, I'm speaking in terms of how it functions in regards to game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

You click/choose where you want to go, they showed how it functioned in the gameplay video. Its similar to how you would place Flamming Arrow,Shadow Flare, etc.

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It's not that were questioning, its how does the game track you, are you technically moving through that space so your subject to cleaves (ala aetherial manipulation) or do you literally dissapear from your spot and reappear in another one.

This is a looks may be decieving view on things.

@Shaolin There problem isn't any practical applications, i just think I could have a good laugh with it.

Ahh, i see, simple misunderstanding, my bad. We'll have to figure out how it works in-game once its finally released in 13hrs :o

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Originally Posted by JakzChurchill

It's not that were questioning, its how does the game track you, are you technically moving through that space so your subject to cleaves (ala aetherial manipulation) or do you literally dissapear from your spot and reappear in another one.

This is a looks may be decieving view on things.

@Shaolin There problem isn't any practical applications, i just think I could have a good laugh with it.

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Agreed. Either way, one thing that makes it much better than Aetherial Manipulation is that you pick a spot rather than a party member. As someone who plays on a controller, it slows me down when I have to scroll through the party list to find a player in a safe spot to port to. Usually manipulating to a healer is safe, but picking a spot will be much quicker.