Pronouns?

so aside from me fucking up what "third person means" (I admit that's on me, but you get what I was trying to say regardless) there's one choice quote I want to pick out since I'm getting tired of this thread

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Ultimately, I, as a cisgendered person, already have the game catering to my preference choices.

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So. Like. What's you being cisgendered got to do with... anything, really? I'm cisgendered too, but I'm also not Khenda. I'm a 21 y/o white male. I certainly don't have cat ears, pink-turned-white hair and am, last time I checked, not a woman. I'm playing a character, not me. I'm not Khenda, Khenda isn't me. I recognise that there are people who would like to be their characters, but the game doesn't cater to you because you are cis. You superimpose being cis onto the game, in the same way people pushing for more forms of self-identification are pushing their identity onto the game.

You don't have to be you in-game. I'd like the identity of the character I've *created* to be respected, though.

Sorry, I read it with my own bias. They meant going forward to remove gendered language to make it easier to implement. Rather than cultural "progress". Still same reply though, I also would rather keep my pronouns. More options is one thing sure, but I'd be wholly against the potential removal just to make it easier on the devs, and pander to a minority.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Sorry, I read it with my own bias. They meant going forward to remove gendered language to make it easier to implement. Rather than cultural "progress". Still same reply though, I also would rather keep my pronouns. More options is one thing sure, but I'd be wholly against the potential removal just to make it easier on the devs, and pander to a minority.

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Would it really be considered removal had they never included it from the beginning? Legit question. If all the voiced cutscenes had only used first/second person pronouns for the player character because they'd been written that way, would you feel as strongly?

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

so aside from me fucking up what "third person means" (I admit that's on me, but you get what I was trying to say regardless) there's one choice quote I want to pick out since I'm getting tired of this thread



So. Like. What's you being cisgendered got to do with... anything, really? I'm cisgendered too, but I'm also not Khenda. I'm a 21 y/o white male. I certainly don't have cat ears, pink-turned-white hair and am, last time I checked, not a woman. I'm playing a character, not me. I'm not Khenda, Khenda isn't me. I recognise that there are people who would like to be their characters, but the game doesn't cater to you because you are cis. You superimpose being cis onto the game, in the same way people pushing for more forms of self-identification are pushing their identity onto the game.

You don't have to be you in-game. I'd like the identity of the character I've *created* to be respected, though.

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Welcome to being exhausted on the internet! I'm not sure why I stuck around either to be honest. I originally just wanted to address that the game being more inclusive is by no means a technical/dev limitation, but here I am.

But dude (because that's gender neutral where I'm from), the game has no obligation to refer to your character with a gender at all. That's been the whole point. The entire game's also been centered on assuming that sex=gender because that's the assumed norm for everyone when it isn't for all of them. I brought it up because some trans and NB inclusive options has never been a factor in my life, whether online or offline. I don't have to deal with being misgendered intentionally or not. The game absolutely caters to the expected societal standard that people are cis. It's a generally fair assumption to make too, because that is a majority. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore or exclude options for minorities who these options could really matter to.

While I personally chose to play a male character, the game also assumes I want masculine third person pronouns, which for me, is fine. If the game gave players the option to pick them, that'd be great, but ultimately, wouldn't change my gameplay.

It's great that you're a guy playing a catgirl. I started ARR as a catboy and I don't identify with my character either. Characters are just avatars, after all. I'm not sure how a script requiring third person pronouns is deemed more respectful to the character than a script that was more neutral, offered neutral options, or avoided the issue altogether. In any case, it's not like I expect SE to bend to my standards or make any changes. I simply proposed a few ways this thread could have been avoided.

This is a fantasy game and it can be whatever the fuck it wants to be and it may or may not bring things from real world.
Vice versa, just because the game has magic and faeries doesn't mean that our world should too

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Would it really be considered removal had they never included it from the beginning? Legit question. If all the voiced cutscenes had only used first/second person pronouns for the player character because they'd been written that way, would you feel as strongly?

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Yes. It would still be a form of removal. They would be consciously choosing to exclude gendered language from the game to pander to one specific minority. Keep in mind trans people also like to be called by gendered pronouns, it's not just the "cisgendered" or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

This is not minor. This would require thousands of changes to dialogue and localizing over many languages that have actual gendered language. ... Which is why it likely won't be seen.

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Well, it might or might not be, depending on how the dialogue system is implemented.

If the dialogue is stored with each line like "I warned {firstname}, I told {m=him|f=her} this would happen." or if you store separate gendered versions of the entire line, then it would indeed be thousands of changes to dialogue. But if the dialogue is stored like "I warned {firstname}, I told {objp} this would happen.", then you just need to define one new set of objective, subjective, possessive, etc. pronouns, and boom, the dialogue's changed globally. I have no idea which way they did it.

Truthfully, I suspect they did it the first way, but it's not entirely relevant. Because even if you didn't have to change thousands of lines in the text dialogue, where it would likely get problematic is that they do seem to have a toggle to switch between two voice lines when the WoL is referenced by a pronoun, and if you added a third set of potential non-gendered pronouns those would all need to get an additional version recorded. Which is where it would absolutely become complicated to do. Especially in cases where the original voice actor for those lines is no longer contracted with SquareEnix (i.e., the Realm Reborn voice cast) or has since passed away (like Yugiri's Heavensward VA, or Honoroit's VA).

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Originally Posted by Endariel

This is a fantasy game and it can be whatever the fuck it wants to be and it may or may not bring things from real world.
Vice versa, just because the game has magic and faeries doesn't mean that our world should too

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Why the hell not? I like magic and faeries. The real world would be richer for their inclusion!

I don't know why the gender of the player should play any role here. It is completely irrelevant. The one who is always adressed with the pronouns in the game is the character and not the player. The character can just be male or female and nothing else and therefore gets adressed accordingly. Why should the character be adressed with pronouns fitting (or not) the gender of the player when the player is never adressed by them?

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

ehhh, don't NPC's already mostly use terms like adventurer; hero of Ishgard; warrior of light/darkness ect when talking about the player character (especially in voiced cutscenes and the Tales of storries)? So that's already gender neutral language, simply because it means they only have to record one version of the cutscenes.
Heck, in Japanese this is even more prominent since referring to someone like this is more common than using he/her. It's honestly only the German and French versions that are explicit in regards to pronouns because gendered language

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I think they use such terms in voiced cutscenes because they can't call the character by their name.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

I don't know why the gender of the player should play any role here. It is completely irrelevant. The one who is always adressed with the pronouns in the game is the character and not the player. The character can just be male or female and nothing else and therefore gets adressed accordingly. Why should the character be adressed with pronouns fitting (or not) the gender of the player when the player is never adressed by them?

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I mean, I can think of several reasons why people would care.

First of all, there's sort of 'exploration of self'. I have run a lot of online tabletop games. (So many. Maybe too many. I'm thinking of starting up another D&D campaign. I can't stop. Help.) And in my role as a GM for those games, I've often seen people who are RL trans, or gay, or whatever but who are stuck in the closet due to family that wouldn't approve or something similar use their character in those games as an outlet, something where they can be "themselves" rather than conforming to whatever expectations are forced on them in day-to-day life. And I imagine folks who identify as non-binary but can't openly be so due to family or other circumstances might well want to have their Warrior of Light able to represent that part of themselves they feel they can't.

Secondly, there's representation. If you don't see yourself in any media you consume, it can feel like "people like me" don't exist in the world of that media (or at least, don't do anything of enough importance to be worth noting). It's why it can matter to a young black kid to see Alec Hardison in Leverage, where the smartest, kindest, gentlest (and nerdiest) guy on the team is the black guy. It's why it can matter to trans youth to see Nomi in Sense8, a positive portrayal of a trans character. And I'd imagine that it can matter to non-binary folks to see non-binary characters.

And lastly, even if the player isn't NB, people generally want to play the character that they've envisioned. If who your character is doesn't matter, or folks could just pretend all the dialogue has different pronouns... then why should it matter if you can make male Viera? Just make a miqo'te catboy and pretend they're a Viera! Why should it matter if you can make female Hrothgar? Just make a femroe and pretend it's a Hrothgar! Yet there's no shortage of folks in this community who want those options added to the game from what I've seen, and that's potentially an even bigger technical effort (given the need to potentially make two new versions of every bit of player-equippable gear in the game).

In the end, unfortunately, I doubt the likely technical effort involved in retrofitting this notoriously spaghetti-code engine to redo the dialogue system—much less go back and change prior dialogue—is feasible, at least not if we want the dev team to still produce other content. (MOAR CONTENT PLZ)

But I can 100% understand why there are people who would want that done.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

...Heck, in Japanese this is even more prominent since referring to someone like this is more common than using he/her.

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There is a lot to it, in terms of politeness. But, thinking about this point, I now have to go back through the cutscenes now and look for any occurences of お前... heh.

In my mind the English translators changed a lot of good Japanese content into what could be be described as dross. (My signature line gives the biggest hint at this).