Totally right. People tend to forget that before we go to elpis. On the first when we interact with what's left of Elidibus. He actually mentions remembering we were there on elpis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
So saying that, you are correct. We couldn't change history but from him remembering sets it up for us actually being a part of what unfolded there. They reused this as well during panda raid story.
Also if you wonder had we not taken the trip. Could hythlodaeus and emet and venat stumbled upon what Hermes was doing. Or would have hermes plans gone unnoticed and the cataclysmic events happen far sooner then they did.
Like we know venat and them are wicked smart but just how smart. Something to think on.
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10-15-2023, 02:02 AMRavenblade1979
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10-15-2023, 02:04 AMRavenblade1979Actually no. It's been setup for awhile now that the echo let's you see a person's past. Although it's not easily controlled to allow you to do so. As far as it goes. Not use in clairvoyance of seeing ones future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-15-2023, 02:10 AMTurtledeluxeThe only thing it is unclear if he's referring to seeing Azem us or something or confirming the events of the Ew trip where we spoil the future. My point is that with or without the WoL being in Elpis there's still past to view and investigate because the original timeline, no matter what, leads to Meteion and the final days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979
The reason I say this is because the WoL may have been in original Elpis but they don't remember it. So there's something going on there. -
10-15-2023, 02:13 AMAbsimiliardThe Pandaemonium raid is canon. The post-Elpis visit indeed happened. Additionally, I would note you're under a bit of a misapprehension regarding whether or not the WoL could affect change during their initial visit. They were told by Elidibus they'd be little more than a shade and thus unable to affect things, but Emet-Selch remedied this problem. They were granted substance and presence, and so they gained the ability to interact with the world of the past in a way Elidibus had no way of knowing would occur. I also recall there being a warning they might not have a time to return to in the event they did somehow find a way to alter things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
As for Venat; she could simply have chosen to try and save her people. Instead, she took to heart the future she'd been told about and decided she'd aim for it instead. The nature of this particular bootstrap paradox precludes the possibility of the WoL having any real choice in matters, but it does not strip agency from Venat. There were other options available to her. This is the crux of the matter. If she had agency, which as of current writing we know she did, then she chose to stay the course despite having been granted a complete picture of future events by the WoL. She had full foreknowledge of the suffering her decision would bring, of what the Ascians would ultimately become and do, and of just how horrible the sundered would be toward one another.
For clarity: a bootstrap paradox is a situation wherein you've a repeating cycle sustained by time travel that has no defined beginning or end. Venat cannot know the WoL's specific future and thus decide to try and reach it without first being told it, and in turn the WoL would not exist, let alone travel back to Elpis, in the event Venat never gained this knowledge and thus enacted the sundering. You might also call this a predestination paradox. Where this differs from your typical example is one of the participants being allowed to maintain their agency, while the other is not.
I... didn't even remotely imply it can? The poster I was replying to was claiming the WoL's trip to Elips somehow meant Emet-Selch should've been able to see it in their aether when they met on the First, which makes no sense. They have since recanted that claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979
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10-15-2023, 02:16 AMTurtledeluxeFordola uses it for clairvoyance actually but it's limited and why I'm not arguing that Emet could have viewed our Elpis trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979
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10-15-2023, 02:26 AMTurtledeluxeI know it happened. But it's not clear whether it was an exact replication of what happened originally or a deviant timeline. As far as Emet "remedying the problem" I don't buy that. I think the entire point of it is that no matter what happens, our actions in the Elpis wouldn't change the course of history ie stop the final days from occurring. Hence why despite what Emet did, it still happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
She did try and she failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
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10-15-2023, 02:31 AMAbsimiliardNowhere in anything pertaining to Pandaemonium is it remotely implied there's a tangential timeline at play. Quite to the contrary; we are explicitly in the same Elpis for the portion of the story taking place there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
Now, here's a question:
If the WoL was unable to effect change in Elpis, how exactly is it they are directly responsible for morbols? And no, I'm not joking. That's a thing you can do while you're there, and the game makes it super apparent their continued existence in the modern world is entirely your fault. There's also the matter of the WoL having say in what traits behemoths have.
The writers make it clear that she at no point divulged what she knew of Meteion or the world's future to her people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
I should also point out Emet-Selch only made it through the sundering intact because she intentionally left a crack in it with full expectation he would recognize it and save himself. This action was deliberately carried out with the intent of facilitating the timeline she'd had described to her by the Warrior of Light. Noting of course she possessed full knowledge of what Emet-Selch and his fellow Ascians would become in time, their objectives, and the untold deaths they would cause in the pursuit of those objectives. -
10-15-2023, 02:59 AMTurtledeluxeIf our Elpis visit is what actually happened in the original time then I don't understand your original argument that Emet couldn't have gleaned our past from someone who saw us or the Aether. His memories were wiped and we are clearly a reincarnation but surely since it's so casual he could find it from some other subject or the Aether? And then what about everyone else who were investigating the final days? I've already asked why is Venat the single person who can solve the mystery? Bc you want to poke holes in EW or?Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
Her playing games with Emet doesn't prove anything. The point is she explicitly tells us she's going to bring people I to the fold and I assume she does (the Twelve??) but whatever she does fails because she can't stop the Zodiark solution...
Emet also says "our solutions would not have brought mankind this far". So Venat has those solutions because why??? -
10-15-2023, 03:11 AMXirean
Just gonna throw out there that Venat directly shows the WoL how she could have shown the convocation what happened. By just going to the physical places where events occurred she can look into the past and bring others with the Echo with her into the vision. Theoretically, other convocation members could do this without her help, but the point stands that the solution is painted very clearly right in front of us as players.
Also just gotta say that Emet not caring to learn what he forgot seems rather out of character. -
10-15-2023, 03:14 AMAbsimiliardThe WoL is a fragment of Azem, not a fragment of a different version of themselves from another timeline. The events of Elpis would not be present anywhere in their being if they themselves had not been there. It's as simple as that. "Our" WoL had no involvement with Elpis or its events until the exact moment they went there, not until.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe
The people investigating the Final Days were lacking a significant amount of information as to its true nature. They did not know about Meteion because Venat never told them. They completely misdiagnosed the problem in their ignorance, although they were fortunate enough for Hermes and his contemporaries to wind up arriving at a workable, if temporary solution in the form of Zodiark. Through Zodiark they managed to treat the symptoms even if the cause remained unknown.
Or were you meaning people in the modern era trying to understand it? If so, then that answer is a lot more simple. Setting aside how rare the Echo actually is, there's a limit on how far back you can look with it. Modern Echo-users, no matter how skilled, would never be able to look far enough back to glean even one iota of useful information about the Final Days from the world.
"Playing games" with Emet-Selch, as you put it, was a key part of ensuring the timeline she sought would come to pass. It was only through the presence of the Ascians things could play out in a manner necessary for events to unfold as they'd been foretold. And for Venat "bringing others into the fold?" That does not necessarily mean she's told them the truth of it, particularly since we're told outright she never did. She recruited followers, yes, but none of them understood what was really happening.
Oh, right, I almost forgot:
Why Venat? Because that's the story. The story presents us with a situation wherein the rest of her people proved insufficient at correctly diagnosing the Final Days in the time they had. We can speculate all we want about whether or not they might've been able to figure it out in the span of however many millennia Zodiark bought them, but that's not the story we've been given. The story we've been given leaves Venat holding all the cards. She knew the future, she knew the true nature of the Final Days, and she even new Meteion's location courtesy of having tagged her before she escaped Etheriys' atmosphere.