A Little Pain with my Pleasure

i can assure you, the depth of the hole has a direct relation to the dearth of reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Altena

tldr; also can't be bothered continuing this meaningless discussion in a dead end thread about something that won't change.

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I assure you the dev's don't value any particular person's opinion derived from their own player experiences any more or less than yours. Defending your view in order to further elaborate on something that may have been unclear makes perfect sense and should be encouraged. But, there's never any need to ping pong back and forth with another player that simply holds to an opposing opinion, especially those that may not have the best forum etiquette..

Your original point was a valid opinion, that I'd imagine has been/is already being considered. Even if the death penalty isn't tweaked before launch, as the game ages, changes will continue to happen in response to the state it's in (good or bad), and this issue could be reconsidered then.

There is also the problem of over analyzing something to the point its original purpose is lost. In this case its a game that is supposed to be fun but it seems there are those who would suck the fun out of it before even having a chance to try it out....

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

There is also the problem of over analyzing something to the point its original purpose is lost. In this case its a game that is supposed to be fun but it seems there are those who would suck the fun out of it before even having a chance to try it out....

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BTW, this is what went through my head when I read that. "Not having XP loss on death sucks the fun out of the game" It's almost the reverse of what you said, almost. But the point is there, you say it sucks the fun out of it, when it may be the opposite for others. I actually prefer an XP loss on death, it's something that's made sense to me since D&D days. Will I be upset if it's not there? No, but I'm also not going to go bash some guy for wanting it either.

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Originally Posted by ispano

BTW, this is what went through my head when I read that. "Not having XP loss on death sucks the fun out of the game" It's almost the reverse of what you said, almost. But the point is there, you say it sucks the fun out of it, when it may be the opposite for others. I actually prefer an XP loss on death, it's something that's made sense to me since D&D days. Will I be upset if it's not there? No, but I'm also not going to go bash some guy for wanting it either.

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You seemed to misunderstand me. My comment was more of a general statement about the lodestone forums in general over the past few months. like the SSM, the Quest vid, etc, and now this EXP loss thing... I understand people are bored but...

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Originally Posted by Yellow

Current problem with WoW and similar MMORPGs.

I think this video explains a lot of the issues as to why MMORPGs (lets be honest, a lot of them these days are copying WoW so this basically applies to all of them too) are

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Huh, so the game from which that cancer that's killing the genre was born has also suffered badly from it. Who'da thunk. That's interesting and sad at the same time.

All of that in the video kinda reminded me of what happened in FFXI after CoP.

CoP was hard. It could have been frustratingly hard at times (6-4, anyone?). Back then, when you saw a guy walk by with a rajas/sattva/tamas ring, a sea torque or a magnetic/hollow/ethereal earring, you almost immediately thought "man, that guy must be either pretty good or damn lucky". I think it must have taken me way over a year to complete CoP, and I was one of those guys that made their own groups. It felt amazing when I finally did it, but damn it was tough.

Other people, though, spent their time crying instead of trying hard to beat it. Instead of trying to learn from their losses, they just went back to Jeuno to whine about it. For years, they cried, and what ended up happening? ToAU was a walk in the park, CoP eventually got nerfed to hell, and WoTG (at least as far as I managed to get), was also a piece of cake. I'm surprised they never made AV soloable after so much damn whining.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

Huh, so the game from which that cancer that's killing the genre was born has also suffered badly from it. Who'da thunk. That's interesting and sad at the same time.

All of that in the video kinda reminded me of what happened in FFXI after CoP.

CoP was hard. It could have been frustratingly hard at times (6-4, anyone?). Back then, when you saw a guy walk by with a rajas/sattva/tamas ring, a sea torque or a magnetic/hollow/ethereal earring, you almost immediately thought "man, that guy must be either pretty good or damn lucky". I think it must have taken me way over a year to complete CoP, and I was one of those guys that made their own groups. It felt amazing when I finally did it, but damn it was tough.

Other people, though, spent their time crying instead of trying hard to beat it. Instead of trying to learn from their losses, they just went back to Jeuno to whine about it. For years, they cried, and what ended up happening? ToAU was a walk in the park, CoP eventually got nerfed to hell, and WoTG (at least as far as I managed to get), was also a piece of cake. I'm surprised they never made AV soloable after so much damn whining.

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Could it have been as simple as the loss of experience upon death that caused the cancer? Without looking at what the long term effects may be SE I feel stepped onto the slippery slope and fell HARD thus culminating itself to a half-baked first run FFXIV. Now hit the rest and let’s start again. Please do not lose the path and fall to the pressure of the complainers.

I so was not ready for this topic in the general list. My bad little mind just went all over the place......

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

Could it have been as simple as the loss of experience upon death that caused the cancer?

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No. It's this attitude people (mostly "casuals") have picked up where they want everything handed on a silver platter for them. It's always "I want X to be easier/faster (often synonyms of sorts in games)", "I'm paying, so I deserve the same opportunities as everyone" (often times without even trying), "this content is too hard! It's excluding some people!" (this one was the most common "critique" to CoP and therefore Sea), "it shouldn't be so hard for me to get X! Make it more accessible!", and so on...

I often think this sort of people are just playing the wrong genre and "trying to like it" so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

No. It's this attitude people (mostly "casuals") have picked up where they want everything handed on a silver platter for them. It's always "I want X to be easier/faster (often synonyms of sorts in games)", "I'm paying, so I deserve the same opportunities as everyone" (often times without even trying), "this content is too hard! It's excluding some people!" (this one was the most common "critique" to CoP and therefore Sea), "it shouldn't be so hard for me to get X! Make it more accessible!", and so on...

I often think this sort of people are just playing the wrong genre and "trying to like it" so to speak.

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I agree, if ppl can't deal with a little challenge then they need to find games that don't give them problems rather then complain about the ones that do, as far as the exp thing...why not do both gear damage and a little exp lost on top... could try a 25% damage and 25% exp lost on death....or based on lvl like ffxi does exp lost

I'll say it again, reversing progress doesn't add a lick of challenge, all it does it waste time. Having a hard boss beating you is challenge, getting punished by reversing your progress because you did not beat him is not challenge, it's fucking retarded.

I'm all for penalty with deaths but never if I have to feel like "well, there goes the time I spent on those points down the drain."

Thank God Yoshi is not the masochist Tanaka was.

It's funny how people always argue that exp loss is horrible because it makes you waste your time getting your buffer back and whatnot. Why? Well... we're taking a hit on our gil in this game whenever we die, right? And, as opposed to exp loss, this in no way wastes our time ever, right? Annnnd gil is an infinite resource, right? ...What? It runs out? And it takes time to get gil? What do you mean repairs aren't free? You mean NPCs charge for it and dark matter isn't actually unlimited? My... I think I've been fooled all this time!

Both things ARE a penalty, and likewise, both things, in one way or the other DO consume your time.

Now, I'm not trying to advocate for one or the other here. I really could care less about which one we get because, well... they're pretty much the same shit!

(though honestly, I usually found it easier to just solo my buffer back after dying a couple of times than building up some gil; never been the insanely rich kind of guy in a MMO myself :P)

If I lose gil it doesn't make me unable to equip my gear if I delevel. Is it really that hard to see why losing exp is worse? Say you get invited to fight a boss "Sorry mate, if I die one more time I'll delevel and wont be able to use my stuff. I have to go get some more exp."

Yeah, no thanks I rather lose gil.

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Originally Posted by Lirion

If I lose gil it doesn't make me unable to equip my gear if I delevel. Is it really that hard to see why losing exp is worse? Say you get invited to fight a boss "Sorry mate, if I die one more time I'll delevel and wont be able to use my stuff. I have to go get some more exp."

Yeah, no thanks I rather lose gil.

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I bet you'd have a fun time joining for a boss fight with your gear around 20%, huh?

Oh, but of course you could just stack up on DM or get your gear repaired before joining up, or just make sure your gear doesn't go down below a certain percentage. Hm, that seems mighty different from building up an exp buffer or making sure it doesn't go too low, huh?

No, it doesn't. Both things are pretty much the same thing.

Haha keep on thinking that. It's not the same.

I don't have to go do quests, gather a party to go fight mobs just to repair my shit before I go fight a boss.

One thing takes more time than the other, time rather spent on something else.

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Originally Posted by Lirion

Haha keep on thinking that. It's not the same.

I don't have to go do quests, gather a party to go fight mobs to repair my shit before I go fight a boss.

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Neither did I. Lolibries, spiders and Marids were pretty much right outside Al Zahbi (yeah, I solo'd T~VT Marids on my MNK for fun - and a bit of buffer. Talk about a badass). Not to mention I got quite a bit of exp farming qyps (chips) in Sea. 7k or so was enough of a buffer to keep me going, and since I'd lose 1k exp tops from dying (if I got R1; it was only 250 exp with R3 - that's an easy prey mob), it never was much of an issue.

Oh, and that was in old XI. Exp is easier (WAY EASIER) to get in this game.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

Neither did I. Lolibries, spiders and Marids were pretty much right outside Al'zahbi (yeah, I solo'd T~VT Marids on my MNK for fun (and a bit of buffer). Talk about a badass). Not to mention I got quite a bit of exp farming qyps (chips) in Sea. 7k or so was enough of a buffer to keep me going, and since I'd lose 1k exp tops from dying (if I got R1; it was only 250 exp with R3 - that's an easy prey mob), it never was much of an issue.

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I'd rather use that time on crafting and/or leveling new jobs/classes.

In the end, gil and XP are both types of currency if you can lose them in exchange for attempting a fight. I think losing gil is the better choice for two reasons.

First, it provides a controllable gil sink that can help to control the economy. Players getting too rich? Raise repair costs. Players too poor? Lower repair costs. Controllable currency sinks are considered very good things in MMO design, and tend to be pretty important to regulating the long-term health of the economy. Considering that gil storage is essentially "infinite" whereas XP is most-decidedly "finite", the game needs sinks to remove gil from the economy and prevent over-inflation.

Second, it doesn't potentially rob players of skills or abilities if they run low. After all, you want players to learn how to use their abilities, and taking those abilities away if they initially fail is counterproductive and instead teaches them to rely on what they already know rather than learn how to use their new techniques.

Edit: Ramblings on the history of XP loss.

I wouldn't be surprised if EverQuest's implementation of XP loss was inspired by the tabletop RPGs of its time, including Dungeons and Dragons, which caused a character to de-level if they were killed and later revived. In any event, I don't recall XP having any use in EQ except to advance your character level, so losing XP was nothing more than a penalty for failure; and, really, quite a mild one considering that EQ also caused you to drop all of your gear, if memory serves, and required you to loot your own corpse to get it back... or risk losing it to a later passerby.

Really, it's probably fair to say that EQ stumbled on the notion of penalizing a player's time investment in exchange for failure. Why people are so attached to the details of it implementation are beyond me. Time lost is time lost, and I think there's a better fit for FFXIV, and more generally in many modern MMOs.

Third: You're able to trade gil. If your friend needs gil to repair you can give it to them instead of saying "Get !@#$ out of the party and go farm some exp you lazy !@#." Stopping the raid because a few people delevel isn't only a pain for the people who delevel, it's also a pain for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

Third: You're able to trade gil. If your friend needs gil to repair you can give it to them instead of saying "Get !@#$ out of the party and go farm some exp you lazy !@#."

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I like this point, too. Group efforts FTW.

Exp loss does not increase the amount of gil sellers. I think the idea of groups working together is good, not group effort. Unless you want to talk about exchanging/selling exp. This I feel would be the worst idea.

"PL'er for sale, 10 levels, $100."

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

Exp loss does not increase the amount of gil sellers.

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No, the things that increase gil sellers are a lack of enforcement and players willing to pay real money for gil.

I'm not saying that eradicating gil sellers and buyers is straightforward, but it would probably be a start in the right direction to not only ban the gil sellers once you have proof of an infraction, but record their payment information, ban every account using that payment information, and then ban every account that had a gil transaction over, say, 100,000 gil with those accounts. Or, in 2.0 currency, over 10,000 gil.

Or if you really wanted to be even more clever, keep a record of all market transactions each month, fit them to a normal distribution curve, and flag anything as suspicious if it's greater than one standard deviation from mean average sales price.