Bring Back Kaiten

The Job Action Trailer of Dawntrail will determine if we get back our Kenki Engagement from 6.08 back or we're doomed to 2 or 3 more years of Spamming Shinten.

As for the Future Anticipating Changes is a necessity, though clever would it be if Kaiten just turn the 50% Bonus Damage into Direct Hit, thus most of the Big Attacks also would look Big even though The Number might be mathematicly smaller, but as long as Kaiten boosts Weaponskills, it will feel Good.

I mean.. if you had the choice of playing SAM with a slightly nerfed Kaiten or Spamming Shinten as you do since 6.1

What would you choose?

I'd choose the Direct Hit Kaiten since then, I finally can play and enjoy SAM at the Same Time again.

I just saw a Vid by MrHappy about an Interview with Yoshi-P regarding the oversimplification of FFXIV and yeah but like my message with this thread, they have to look at the Jobs more individually, not "just do something" about the 2min meta and gg..

imo ofc they should bring back Kaiten, but bring back other jobs depth or even reworking the pre Shadowbringers Trust Dungeons reworks again because let's face it ARR doesn't sell new players on an adventure anymore :/ and even some Stormblood Dungeons took a hit.

though regarding of consistently Fun Jobs in FFXIV as of Patch 6.57:
DRG,DNC,RDM,WAR

quite honestly, they'll most likely make the game more appealing to the youngins more so than vets.

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Originally Posted by rawker

quite honestly, they'll most likely make the game more appealing to the youngins more so than vets.

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hmm idk.. imo they should spice up ARR and pre-SHB again, scrap the pre-SHB Trust Dungeon additions and program the pre-SHB to be able to run unmodified pre-SHB Dungeons! I prefer the old versions of dungeons/bosses since they sold me on an adventure..
Stone Vigils 2nd Boss used to require someone to use cannons to interrupt an mechanic and the final boss teached the importance of huge damage, since you could skip phases if you were good but well not anymore~ and don't get me started about the Castrum Meridianum Finale of 2.0.. ok in short it has become an even more waste of time.

I think we saw in the Benchmark Trailer the Single Target Ogi or the lvl100 Skill of Samurai (The Cone Effect looked really strange though.. like another Animation for Tenka Goken?? Noo..).. sadly he forgot to boost it with Kaiten.. but jokes aside from What I've experienced regarding Samurai and Kaiten that Hissatsu Kaiten might be the most requested Skill to return in FFXIV history and I highly doubt that the Devs can effort to be this ignorant.. remember when they laughed about Jumping in Final Fantasy? Yes, those were different People but the attitude strikes an familiar cord...

If Kaiten doesn't return, it means to spam 2 or 3 more years Shinten.. and if the Blue Buff from Viper just boosts the following Weaponskill.. Ohh we will have a Big Problem about that!

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I think we saw in the Benchmark Trailer the Single Target Ogi or the lvl100 Skill of Samurai (The Cone Effect looked really strange though.. like another Animation for Tenka Goken?? Noo..).. sadly he forgot to boost it with Kaiten.. but jokes aside from What I've experienced regarding Samurai and Kaiten that Hissatsu Kaiten might be the most requested Skill to return in FFXIV history and I highly doubt that the Devs can effort to be this ignorant.. remember when they laughed about Jumping in Final Fantasy? Yes, those were different People but the attitude strikes an familiar cord...

If Kaiten doesn't return, it means to spam 2 or 3 more years Shinten.. and if the Blue Buff from Viper just boosts the following Weaponskill.. Ohh we will have a Big Problem about that!

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Oh gods spamming nothing but Shinten for another 2 or 3 years will be the end of me xwx

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Originally Posted by HowlandMeowl

Oh gods spamming nothing but Shinten for another 2 or 3 years will be the end of me xwx

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I think The Shinten Spam should not only our main Arguement towards the Kaiten Opposers but also the Meme we should drum until Kaiten is back.

I mean else do we spend Kenki on? Kyuten? yeah that's the AoE Shinten Big Deal right there.. and Senei aswell as Guren get covered by Ikishoten due to the 2mins anyway

I also love how so many Content Creator loath and rant about the 2min meta but never go into detail: like NIN's Mug/TA Changes or the Shinten Spam? I dare the assumption that if they didn't removed Kaiten, we as Samurai Players would've smooth sailing through Endwalker, because the Content might've lacked challenge to play through but still would've been fun.

The SAM in the benchmark uses kaiten before the camera swoops over to them. You have to watch it back at .25x speed but yes, it looks like kaiten is returning for DT.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

The SAM in the benchmark uses kaiten before the camera swoops over to them. You have to watch it back at .25x speed but yes, it looks like kaiten is returning for DT.

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That's Ikishoten they're doing which also has kind of spins but not the same.

This is the Ikishoten ending animation shown in the benchmark.
https://i.imgur.com/Wips1QK.png

This is the Kaiten ending animation I found from a random video.
https://i.imgur.com/fZCpZFL.png

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

That's Ikishoten they're doing which also has kind of spins but not the same.

This is the Ikishoten ending animation shown in the benchmark.
https://i.imgur.com/Wips1QK.png

This is the Kaiten ending animation I found from a random video.
https://i.imgur.com/fZCpZFL.png

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Oh. Well dammit.

well.. again.. The Job Action Trailer will bring the answer and as much as I like the Single Target Ogi, it will change nothing but a lil bit of Damage Optimization.. yay...

but let us remind ourselves that we are not alone.. or how many Paladin Cosplayers demanded Bulwark back On-Stage of the Fanfest?

Maybe the new skills will work with Genki to.
The complain is, that there is nothing to use the gauge, except for 1 skill, without Kaiten, right?

The solution would be: add some new skills to that as a replacememt.
Esspecial, when the other skill was only a dmg increasing skill, for 1 attack. That was mostly used for only 1 other attack.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Maybe the new skills will work with Genki to.
The complain is, that there is nothing to use the gauge, except for 1 skill, without Kaiten, right?

The solution would be: add some new skills to that as a replacememt.
Esspecial, when the other skill was only a dmg increasing skill, for 1 attack. That was mostly used for only 1 other attack.

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practicly yes, but the issue goes deeper, because now Kenki is just a tagged-on Shinten Gauge.
With Kaiten, Kenki was there to boost all of your Weaponskills, for just 20 Kenki. Kaiten, kinda was the Life Surge but with an added Resource to manage (Kenki)
So experienced Samurai Players always had 20 Kenki enough to spend on the next Iaijutsu and Ogi.
6.1 missed the opportunity to change Kaiten so it interacts with the Guarantee'd Crit Change by changing Kaiten so it makes the next Weaponskill Direct Hit.
The Samurai's Problem right now is Kenki without Kaiten makes the Rotation stagnate at lvl50 basicly. Because what does the Samurai get after lvl50? Shinten? Kyuten? yay more burst attacks.. Guren? Senei? Ikishoten? yay 2minute skills.. Shoha? Mumyo Shoha? yay Bonus Attacks for every 3rd Iaijutsu and Ogi.. which is another 2minute attack.. and all those 52+ Skills feel tagged-on in comparison. With Kaiten: Kenki was the Weaponskill Boost Gauge that only got expanded with Shinten, Kyuten, Senei, Guren, (Ikishoten is more like the 2minute Skill to be used with Senei or Guren) and even Ogi could've been boosted with Kaiten alongside Iaijutsu. Kaiten was the Skill that glued everything together.. or let me ask you a different Question:

Where is the Interactivity of Iaijutsu and Kenki? and funnily enough there is an Answer: Hagakure... which drains all your Sen and gives you 10 Kenki for each? which is enough for one more Shinten! yay~
ugh.. which is why the Dawntrail Job Action Trailer cannot come soon enough! I mean, imagine! Job Action Trailer for Dawntrail gets released, No Kaiten.. 7.1 get released! And they added Kaiten Back!

I don't sam, but I support your cause.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I don't sam, but I support your cause.

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I recommend you to do sam, when Kenki's focus is back to boost weaponskills again^^

Anyway hyped for tomorrow?

We already know it isn't coming back or else it would have been used on the new ogi shown in the benchmark.

Good riddance.

Its not in the job trailer guys.. I think its kaitover.. Maybe they'll come to their senses in time for 8.0.

"We've listened to player feedback, so we won't be bringing kaiten back, please look forward"

welp.. 2 more years of spamming Shinten.. but also.. who had the Idea of turning Tsubame into a follow up to Meikyo!? Tsubame should be a Follow Up to Iaijutsu!!

I wrote combat macros that make more sense that this crap!
the Buffed Iaijutsu things may look fancy but it won't change a thing!
It looks like SAM got the Dragoon Changes from 6.1.. you know.. the DRG Changes they reverted shortly after? .. from what I saw.. Man! I cannot wait for Patch 7.05!

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

We already know it isn't coming back or else it would have been used on the new ogi shown in the benchmark.

Good riddance.

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Hell yeah, glad kaiten stays dead. That said, disappointed they didn't add something else to interact with the kenki gauge.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Hell yeah, glad kaiten stays dead. That said, disappointed they didn't add something else to interact with the kenki gauge.

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The new conal move shown after Ogi Namikiri does consume 50 Kenki.

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

The new conal move shown after Ogi Namikiri does consume 50 Kenki.

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Dang how did I miss that, thanks for pointing it out!

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

The new conal move shown after Ogi Namikiri does consume 50 Kenki.

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even I missed that xDD but it will change nothing^^; since Ikishoten gives you 50 Kenki^^ it's just more 2min fluff

So they create something so clean as Viper but leave SAM in its current condition. This is so disappointing, I will hold my major judgments till dawntrail release but SAM looks boring as hell compared to all these other classes.

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Originally Posted by Jaydarksol

So they create something so clean as Viper but leave SAM in its current condition. This is so disappointing, I will hold my major judgments till dawntrail release but SAM looks boring as hell compared to all these other classes.

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I agree, the Iaijutsu changes will do nothing and Kenki.. it's just a Shinten Gauge I mean.. I guess I'll rewatch the Job Trailer again one day but there was nothing

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

welp.. 2 more years of spamming Shinten.. but also.. who had the Idea of turning Tsubame into a follow up to Meikyo!? Tsubame should be a Follow Up to Iaijutsu!!

I wrote combat macros that make more sense that this crap!
the Buffed Iaijutsu things may look fancy but it won't change a thing!
It looks like SAM got the Dragoon Changes from 6.1.. you know.. the DRG Changes they reverted shortly after? .. from what I saw.. Man! I cannot wait for Patch 7.05!

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Shinten is beautiful in samurai because it is the icing on the cake of an iaijutsu execution. Maybe there is more optimal usage of it, but you will never cap on kenki by simply using shinten after every iaijutsu and that's a beautiful thing. It is the conclusion of every combo string we execute and just makes sense. It adds a lightning fast feeling animation cancel to iaijutsu that gets you right back into your next combo string.

If you are feeling like you are "spamming shinten" maybe you don't actually appreciate the job.

They also did make tsubame into a followup to iaijutsu most likely. There is an option to tie certain skills together into the same keybind without a macro now. It would make sense that iaijutsu and tsubame are included in that.

These doomer takes just make you sound like you're not a fan of playing samurai I'm not gonna lie.

On top of that, you call it a shinten gauge yet it's also used for kyuten, senai, guren, and the new ogi finisher. Just cut it out, if you want to be unhappy then just move along and be as you are.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Shinten is beautiful in samurai because it is the icing on the cake of an iaijutsu execution. Maybe there is more optimal usage of it, but you will never cap on kenki by simply using shinten after every iaijutsu and that's a beautiful thing. It is the conclusion of every combo string we execute and just makes sense. It adds a lightning fast feeling animation cancel to iaijutsu that gets you right back into your next combo string.

If you are feeling like you are "spamming shinten" maybe you don't actually appreciate the job.

They also did make tsubame into a followup to iaijutsu most likely. There is an option to tie certain skills together into the same keybind without a macro now. It would make sense that iaijutsu and tsubame are included in that.

On top of that, you call it a shinten gauge yet it's also used for kyuten, senai, guren, and the new ogi finisher. Just cut it out, if you want to be unhappy then just move along and be as you are.

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The Difference is that I loved Samurai since it's release in Stormblood, you started to like Samurai when they removed the Key Kenki Skill. And There was a lot of Samurai Stuff over the Years I disliked, for example: Remember Hagakure over Midare? or The Shadowbringers Launch Shoha? I disliked those but they didn't reduced the Kenki Resource unlike the Kaiten Removal, so please tell me: how is it a bad thing that Kenki used to interact with Weaponskills? You know, this is why I've gone back to training Aikido, because if I actively breath into my techniques, my technicques become more effective. That Real Life Aspect was captured by Kaiten perfectly. Shinten was just added to skim off excess Kenki and Kyuten is just an AoE Shinten, and if you've noticed Ikishoten aswells as Senei and Guren are all on 2 minutes. Which means that the Kenki Costs of Senei and Guren are covered by Ikishoten. Or in Otherwords, there would be no change if they decide to Remove Kenki entirely and give us Shinten Ready Procs and Ikishoten is the Senei/Guren Ready Trigger. I tell you my Prediction for the Dawntrail 2 minute routine of the Samurai: Senei/Guren -> Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri > Kaeshi Namikiri > The New Skill and it well require only 25 Kenki with no Weaponskill interaction what so ever. Also! Kaiten worked on Ogi Namikiri and it was Great! I'm not again change, but the guaranteed Crit Buffs do absolutely nothing to improve the Feel of the Samurai.. which is why I suggestion Kaiten to grant Direct Hit to the Next Weaponskill. So every Good Samurai constantly Direct Crits as an Reward for Good Kenki Management.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

These doomer takes just make you sound like you're not a fan of playing samurai I'm not gonna lie.

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Doomer Takes!? You're maybe picking fights with a vocal minority but we, especially I detailed the Impact of the Kaiten Removal and the Ripple Effect to the Samurai Gameplay for YEARS! And You never enjoyed Samurai when it was actual Good. Now you're only here to defend your Shinten Spam, meanwhile we're getting louder. I do this because I love the Samurai and I want the Synergy, that made that Job so dynamic back! You just want to Spam Shinten instead^^

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

The Difference is that I loved Samurai since it's release in Stormblood, you started to like Samurai when they removed the Key Kenki Skill. And There was a lot of Samurai Stuff over the Years I disliked, for example: Remember Hagakure over Midare? or The Shadowbringers Launch Shoha? I disliked those but they didn't reduced the Kenki Resource unlike the Kaiten Removal, so please tell me: how is it a bad thing that Kenki used to interact with Weaponskills? You know, this is why I've gone back to training Aikido, because if I actively breath into my techniques, my technicques become more effective. That Real Life Aspect was captured by Kaiten perfectly. Shinten was just added to skim off excess Kenki and Kyuten is just an AoE Shinten, and if you've noticed Ikishoten aswells as Senei and Guren are all on 2 minutes. Which means that the Kenki Costs of Senei and Guren are covered by Ikishoten. Or in Otherwords, there would be no change if they decide to Remove Kenki entirely and give us Shinten Ready Procs and Ikishoten is the Senei/Guren Ready Trigger. I tell you my Prediction for the Dawntrail 2 minute routine of the Samurai: Senei/Guren -> Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri > Kaeshi Namikiri > The New Skill and it well require only 25 Kenki with no Weaponskill interaction what so ever. Also! Kaiten worked on Ogi Namikiri and it was Great! I'm not again change, but the guaranteed Crit Buffs do absolutely nothing to improve the Feel of the Samurai.. which is why I suggestion Kaiten to grant Direct Hit to the Next Weaponskill. So every Good Samurai constantly Direct Crits as an Reward for Good Kenki Management.

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lil bro is pretending I never used kaiten or liked samurai until it was removed.

I'm not going to let one skill get in the way of my enjoyment of a job, but I definitely think the job was significantly improved when they removed kaiten.

Talking about aikido, honestly you're just a broken record at this point and it's boring to engage with you. Keep crying for a skill that isn't coming back. Keep yapping.

Also, ikishoten doesn't cover senei/guren anymore. the 50 kenki goes toward the third ogi skill. On top of the cooldown reduction trait we're getting for senei/guren.

If you no longer enjoy samurai because kaiten was removed, you're free to play another job. Maybe you just liked swinging your sword around like a weeb and didn't really enjoy samurai? I enjoyed samurai with kaiten and I enjoy it more without it. You can't say the same so who is the real one?

Job changes in an mmo are like reading different chapters of a book. You only read a book one direction. The Kaiten chapter is over sorry friends. You'll never have that version of samurai back.

What is it with the job trailers bringing out all the freaks who only seem to get enjoyment out of this game through schadenfreude?

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

What is it with the job trailers bringing out all the freaks who only seem to get enjoyment out of this game through schadenfreude?

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I think that's the kind of player Yoshida wants in his game.

I mean, most players are nothing more than a reflection of the heads behind the game, so if the community is toxic, it's because the devs are toxic to begin with, or at least the way they run the game is toxic.

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Originally Posted by kuroashi_sanji

I think that's the kind of player Yoshida wants in his game.

I mean, most players are nothing more than a reflection of the heads behind the game, so if the community is toxic, it's because the devs are toxic to begin with, or at least the way they run the game is toxic.

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What's toxic? Wanting the game to be more accessible and celebrating jobs becoming less convoluted, or crying about changes that enable more dynamic encounter design with the same difficulty balance?

"R.I.P DRG" is this not a toxic mentality? It's a game, you don't have to base your enjoyment on rotations being so complicated that they have to make boring encounters to compensate for how involved the rotations are.

Same with you people constantly calling it "braindead" for jobs to have more streamlined rotations. The irony of your perspective, it's just so out of touch with reality.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

What's toxic? Wanting the game to be more accessible and celebrating jobs becoming less convoluted, or crying about changes that enable more dynamic encounter design with the same difficulty balance?

"R.I.P DRG" is this not a toxic mentality? It's a game, you don't have to base your enjoyment on rotations being so complicated that they have to make boring encounters to compensate for how involved the rotations are.

Same with you people constantly calling it "braindead" for jobs to have more streamlined rotations. The irony of your perspective, it's just so out of touch with reality.

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It seems that the shoe fits. lmao

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

What is it with the job trailers bringing out all the freaks who only seem to get enjoyment out of this game through schadenfreude?

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It's easy when they don't even play the game to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

It's easy when they don't even play the game to begin with.

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My favorite forum posts are
"you don't even play the game"
"you don't play anything besides duty roulette"
"show me your logs otherwise you have never done x y z content with out proof"

All of these things are posted by angry forum posters who can't stand that people don't agree with them. If your only rebuttal to someone's opinions is to bully them and act like they don't play the game then it just makes you look foolish.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

My favorite forum posts are
"you don't even play the game"
"you don't play anything besides duty roulette"
"show me your logs otherwise you have never done x y z content with out proof"

All of these things are posted by angry forum posters who can't stand that people don't agree with them. If your only rebuttal to someone's opinions is to bully them and act like they don't play the game then it just makes you look foolish.

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ok but hes not wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

My favorite forum posts are
"you don't even play the game"
"you don't play anything besides duty roulette"
"show me your logs otherwise you have never done x y z content with out proof"

All of these things are posted by angry forum posters who can't stand that people don't agree with them. If your only rebuttal to someone's opinions is to bully them and act like they don't play the game then it just makes you look foolish.

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Actually I was referring to forum posters that are only here to enjoy watching jobs being destroyed because they don't have a stake on anything and spend more time on the forums than on the game, but ouch that's a lot of projection.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Actually I was referring to forum posters that are only here to enjoy watching jobs being destroyed because they don't have a stake on anything and spend more time on the forums than on the game, but ouch that's a lot of projection.

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You joined this forum 11 months after I did yet have twice as many posts as me lol. Oh the humanity they removed kaiten samurai is destroyed!! it's only shinten now!!! what will we dooooooooo!!! Samurai is too easy it's only shinten and absolutely nothing else!!!

Imagine spreading false narratives to pretend your opinion is the only legitimate one when people post something that isn't in line with your specific views. It's almost like some people are genuinely happy that kaiten was removed from a gameplay perspective and post on the forums to celebrate the change that they feel was good for the job. I am posting in this thread so that it is not allowed to become an echo chamber. I want kaiten to stay gone because I prefer the way the job plays now. That's all. If everyone like me avoided posting, all the devs would see in this thread is negativity and disdain for the removal of kaiten. If you're going to make threads like this, it is important for me to express my differing opinion.

I couldn't care less that you think the job was "destroyed" because they removed that cheesy animation and interaction between kenki and iaijutsu. I only care that you don't get to create an echo chamber. Does it bother you that you're not succeeding in creating an echo chamber in this thread?