Alliance Raids and players not waiting for Cutscene Watchers

See the thing about a lot of people in this thread, if there's no obligation to wait for people in cutscenes, there's no obligation to run in with someone who decides to pull the boss without a Ready Check. But many in this thread want to argue that they get to decide for everyone else when those players are ready AND want to report you under "aiding the enemy" in the TOS if you don't agree to being forced into the fight that way. So they want to have their cake and to eat it, too. You wanna talk about selfish? THAT'S selfish.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

See the thing about a lot of people in this thread, if there's no obligation to wait for people in cutscenes, there's no obligation to run in with someone who decides to pull the boss without a Ready Check.

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There isn't an obligation for anyone to follow, but the game automatically teleports them inside anyway, so that's sort of a moot point.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There isn't an obligation for anyone to follow, but the game automatically teleports them inside anyway, so that's sort of a moot point.

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Yes and someone can join at that point. I remember aveyond in particular from other threads thinks that anyone who doesn't instantly run in with them is griefing and deserves a mark against their account for it.

If you decide to hang back despite not being in a cutscene while the fight has already started, you are not cooperating but I'm more than capable of surviving boss fights solo regardless of my role. I've been here 8 years, I know these fights inside and out. I don't take the time to report people, when I can tell a party isn't going to work out I excuse myself far earlier than the final boss.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you decide to hang back despite not being in a cutscene while the fight has already started, you are not cooperating but I'm more than capable of surviving boss fights solo regardless of my role. I've been here 8 years, I know these fights inside and out. I don't take the time to report people, when I can tell a party isn't going to work out I excuse myself far earlier than the final boss.

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I mean, based on you are presenting yourself here I probably wouldn't cooperate with you either. I'd follow someone else in, but probably not you.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you decide to hang back despite not being in a cutscene while the fight has already started, you are not cooperating but I'm more than capable of surviving boss fights solo regardless of my role. I've been here 8 years, I know these fights inside and out. I don't take the time to report people, when I can tell a party isn't going to work out I excuse myself far earlier than the final boss.

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No no no

It's not just "not cooperating"

You outright stated this was aiding the enemy and violating the TOS and people deserved to get reported for it

Because they didn't "cooperate" with you forcing the issue of when the fight started

Well yes, if I am in combat with an enemy and the other party members refuse to assist me, they are aiding the enemy by doing nothing. This is against ToS, and while I don't have the time of day to file out reports on such individuals I do not need to rely on them to get through the start of a fight. If you take issue with my position, then you are welcome to advocate that the ToS change in your favor. Until then, I carry on as I carry on.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I'll repeat this until you understand.

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

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But I want to
Therefor
I do

Simple solution. Next to alliance raid you add the option skip or no skip cutscene run. Players who are tired of cutscene get to skip those who wish to watch them can.

That or make the scened watchable outside the raid.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Well yes, if I am in combat with an enemy and the other party members refuse to assist me, they are aiding the enemy by doing nothing. This is against ToS, and while I don't have the time of day to file out reports on such individuals I do not need to rely on them to get through the start of a fight. If you take issue with my position, then you are welcome to advocate that the ToS change in your favor. Until then, I carry on as I carry on.

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They're not aiding the enemy. The instance I'm referring to was remaining outside the arena until pulled in and joining the fight then. They're joining the fight. They're doing their role. They just didn't run in the exact time you did. You had to survive your choice until they got there. That's a difference in playstyle.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The problem with Puppet's Bunker, and I speak from having this happen to me, is that with the way the area is built and coded, if you're ported in, which is likely to happen form watching a cutscene, you're ported into a death wall and immediately die. Sure this is a problem the developers should fix so the location you get teleported to isn't immediate death, but until they do, it's not that hard to take a small break, have a sip of water, and just wait for someone so they don't die before they even get to try to start the fight.

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Bunker has never had any death walls. It just slaps you with DoT that is fairly negligible. What kills people when they finish their cutscene was actually the cake roller AoE where the only safe spot is a small tiny space in the middle of both balls we observe at the edge of arena.

They’ve added invincibility to the watcher & porter whenever they join in boss room 15s later quite a while ago so this is very unlikely to happen nowadays. This is basically dev’s way to let people watch the cutscene in peace without worry of dying when porting in while letting the other pull the boss if they wish to.

Sounds like a good middle ground for me. What more do people want?

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Simple solution. Next to alliance raid you add the option skip or no skip cutscene run. Players who are tired of cutscene get to skip those who wish to watch them can.

That or make the scened watchable outside the raid.

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The cutscene MIGHT be available outside the raid, however, that is not the dev intent, as has been pointed out.

I will add that NOT EVERY CUTSCENE is part of the Journey. Some, not all.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I'll repeat this until you understand.

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

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The primal urge to pull, regardless of role.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/2496272b...8ls5o2_640.png

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

What more do people want?

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Hold everybody hostage until 3 ready checks are performed with everybody clicking yes after being quizzed on duty finder etiquette, obviously.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

If someone pulls ahead of you, what is your course of action?

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when someone pulls ahead of me as a tank, i think "how did that happen? did i forget to hit sprint?" then throw heart of corundum on them so they can absorb a second or two of having aggro on them before i catch up and peel the mobs or boss off of them

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

You completely fabricated this statement.

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...

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

And then the rest of the party just bullies the one person watching cutscenes into skipping and then we have another Praetorium situation.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

The real problem with that idea is that other players just bully the person watching cutscenes into skipping so they can continue.

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yeah, okay..

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

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yeah, okay..

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That statement has absolutely nothing to do with you're claiming I said. Nothing in those statements infers I have only seen one side or the other be rude. Don't accuse me of saying things I haven't said.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

That statement has absolutely nothing to do with you're claiming I said. Nothing in those statements infers I have only seen one side or the other be rude. Don't accuse me of saying things I haven't said.

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You straight up said the bullying is coming from those wanting to skip cutscenes. Then you got shown it’s the people who pull who are actually the victims of bullying. This also involves you when it comes to who is doing the bullying.

So to clarify; you made a statement about a set of people being bully’s. You in turn were shown those people were in fact victims of bullying instead. Those are indisputable facts as the evidence has been shown

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You straight up said the bullying is coming from those wanting to skip cutscenes. Then you got shown it’s the people who pull who are actually the victims of bullying. This also involves you when it comes to who is doing the bullying.

So to clarify; you made a statement about a set of people being bully’s. You in turn were shown those people were in fact victims of bullying instead. Those are indisputable facts as the evidence has been shown

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Max decided to mass quote people in this thread. When another person asked why, they asserted I had said, specifically, that I had "only noticed one side throwing out insults". A complete false framing, not even quoting me, just an outright fabrication. I never said anything of the sort, nor even remotely implied this. I was not, nor was I at any point, talking about was doing theoretical bullying to whom. That was never at any point in this thread the subject. Someone suggested forcing cutscenes if someone is new, I responded by saying I don't think that's a good idea because, based on history, they would end up being bullied into skipping, as did happen with Praetorium and Castrum and the reason those are now unskippable for everyone by default even if everyone has done it before.

Max then takes what I said and then adds an assertion that I claimed the people who are against waiting for cutscene-watchers are "throwing around insults" and only them, that them and only them are acting poorly and the pro-waiting side are innocent angels. Not only is this twisting my words to the extreme, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I was even talking about at any point in this thread. Nothing in my statement, which was just a response to someone else's suggestion, even remotely so much as implied that I believed the people who think they shouldn't have to wait for cutscene-watchers are acting poorly and nobody else over this issue. Nothing in my post suggests that I think pro-waiters are all innocent angels, nor does it imply I have never seen any of them be rude about this topic. Nothing. At all.

I just said "If they made cutscenes unskippable if even 1 person in the raid hasn't seen it yet then they will be bullied into skipping". Because they would. That's a matter of fact. That's not me asserting my own anecdotle observations, that's me stating a fact based on history. You are making things up for no discernable reason at this point, or you have severe reading comprehension.

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Because they would.

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*bows to Yukiko-san*

Exactly.

What most here seem to forget is THAT is why Prae and Castrum are unskippable now.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

*bows to Yukiko-san*

Exactly.

What most here seem to forget is THAT is why Prae and Castrum are unskippable now.

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No. By suggesting THAT is why is a complete lie if you are to leave out the fact the cutscenes are in the middle of the duty. Add that with praetorium being able to be completed in less than 10 minutes, causing a CS watcher to miss the entirety of the duty for watching the first couple cutscenes.
Even when those places had skippable cutscenes, the party would just go about their business, often leaving the viewer behind. It was more common to see a garbled mess of directions, trying to help navigate the places for people or a “just take the teleport” than to see anyone have a negative or snarky comment about the viewer.
This “exactly” nonsense when fabricating lies

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

No. By suggesting THAT is why is a complete lie if you are to leave out the fact the cutscenes are in the middle of the duty. Add that with praetorium being able to be completed in less than 10 minutes, causing a CD watcher to miss the entirety of the duty for watching the first couple cutscenes. Even when those places had skippable cutscenes, the party would just go about their business, often leaving the viewer behind. It was more common to see a garbled mess of directions, trying to help navigate the places for people or a “just take the teleport” than to see anyone have a negative or snarky comment about the viewer. This “exactly” nonsense when fabricating lies

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Prae and Castrum are unskippable owing to years of players being kicked, abused and left behind when watching cutscenes

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...m_content=PSR1

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Back when you could skip, there were daily posts from newbies complaining about how they were forced to either chose to see the fights or watch cutscenes and miss all the fights. SE really was in a now win position, sadly. The new players were just constantly mentioning how it soured the game for them.

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Ill say this again:

The devs and design teams want players to see these cutscenes, INGAME at the time, AND NOT LATER.

FF 14 is a storydriven MMORPG, Prae and Castrum are story dungeons.

Its as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Prae and Castrum are unskippable owing to years of players being kicked, abused and left behind when watching cutscenes

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...m_content=PSR1



Ill say this again:

The devs and design teams want players to see these cutscenes, INGAME at the time, AND NOT LATER.

FF 14 is a storydriven MMORPG, Prae and Castrum are story dungeons.

Its as simple as that.

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Reddit is your source? That’s like giving credit to Wikipedia.

Edit. Also, I’ll repeat this very important point. If it wasn’t for vets just wanting experience, people who have gone through the story, whether they watched it or not, the queues would be empty if not for those players. It’s still a game with the main purpose being to level, get stronger, conquer new challenges. It’s a game. With different goals that speak to different types of players. It’s not a game only in the way you see it. Get it? Got it? Good

Respecting other player is basic thing in MMO, you will interact with player if you play MMO. If you can’t , please find some other single player game to play.
Another solution can be Just make some mechanics that require 24 people to do it, problem solved, this can also solve the issue on current 24 man is way too easy as well. LOL

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Reddit is your source? That’s like giving credit to Wikipedia.

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One source, yes, I have a lot of others, all of whom say the same thing...from 1.0 players through to current.

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If it wasn’t for vets just wanting experience, people who have gone through the story, whether they watched it or not, the queues would be empty if not for those players

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Arent you forgetting one thing?

Said experience and rewards are commensurate with the time investment of those two instances.

However

https://us.millenium.gg/news/19660.html

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So, will Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium see changes too, whether skippable cutscenes or alternatives?

Yoshi-P: "I do apologise but we will not be reworking these two dungeons just yet. We believe minor fixes to these dungeons are not feasible, and it will be necessary to either completely remake them as four-player dungeons or incorporate the Trust system so that they can be cleared on a solo basis.

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Prae and Castrum are two of the biggest xp sources for levelling , both veteran and new players alike. if that changes, I would imagine a lot of people will NOT be happy.

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Originally Posted by zabu

Just make some mechanics that require 24 people to do it, problem solved, this can also solve the issue on current 24 man is way to easy

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That won’t happen as I do recall yoshi p saying something along the lines of alliance raids being designed in such a way that good players are able to carry bad players through it. He realistically doesn’t expect a team of 24 people to be able to stay alive and handle mechanics properly. Having all 24 alive AND do something properly? With this player base…

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

That won’t happen as I do recall yoshi p saying something along the lines of alliance raids being designed in such a way that good players are able to carry bad players through it. He realistically doesn’t expect a team of 24 people to be able to stay alive and handle mechanics properly. Having all 24 alive AND do something properly? With this player base…

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ya that is the sad part , i know that won’t happen :(
but everyone should alive at least for 1st minute of the fight ? lol
regarding to good carry bad…. , even extreme and savage can get carry now , so what can i say, too many issue there

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

I'll repeat this until you understand.

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

You don't have to pull

No one is forcing you to pull ahead of the tank. No one is forcing you to pull when someone is in a cutscene. You are making these actions of your own free will. If someone is in a cutscene and you're pulling they are not in the wrong for watching said scene and not helping you until they're done. When you decide to pull while your healer is in a cutscene that is something you did entirely of your own volition whne you could just have well have waited, you don't get to complain, or go cite TOS because they didn't help you when you made the conscious choice to pull without making sure or not caring that your whole party was ready. That's on you. You seem to think you get to dictate the course of a dungeon, and that others should respect you and your time but don't want to return the favor and unironically are moralizing other people like myself over this same issue when it's you that's in need of some perspective.

You keep trying to make justifications I will simply ask who forced you to pull in the first place? No one. Especially when I and most other tanks will 2-group pull and have no need for a dps with a short attention span pulling for me. I will already be doing fast, large pulls so your assistance is not needed.

You don't pay my sub? Cool, you also don't pay my sub. Funny how that works.

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Of course a dps doesnt have to pull ahead in a dungeon. But you also dont have to throw a tantrum about it. It really feels strange that you are reacting that hostile to someone who is just trying to help.

The choice that can lead deaths/wipes in dungeons is primarily the one you make, therefore it's only natural that people make you responsible for it.

Since you're so in favor of repeating yourself:

You dont have to throw a tantrum about a dps pulling ahead in a dungeon.

You dont have to throw a tantrum about a dps pulling ahead in a dungeon.

You dont have to throw a tantrum about a dps pulling ahead in a dungeon.

You dont have to throw a tantrum about a dps pulling ahead in a dungeon.

SE should just make every cutsscene unskippable. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by Harriks

SE should just make every cutsscene unskippable. Problem solved

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I WANT new people to experience cutscenes and fights fully right then and there wen they first do it, but

No.

I dont want everybody to be forced to watch cutscenes at all times.

They COULD just not let people in the boss arena if somebody watches one, but that would basically the same... just a little less worse since you can do a few things during cutscenes running and some banter after rushing through can be nice.
Have a sip, have a bite, change music, chat, making a danceline....
But being in a cutscene does kinda suck, i'd rather not want one every time, let me run around while others watch it.

The wait is not a problem to me but i dont wanna watch the red girl be creepy every time but rather dance instead.
I already hate the... ball... enough as is.
And the empire is a cancer.

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Originally Posted by Harriks

SE should just make every cutsscene unskippable. Problem solved

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Imagine making your playerbase pay for a subscription just to have them spend a huge chunk of their limited playtime due to work on cutscenes... Yeah less people would touch the game if it worked that way.

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Originally Posted by Harriks

SE should just make every cutsscene unskippable. Problem solved

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No, what SE need to do is stop adding long cutscenes in the middle of a dungeon/raid. There, problem solved and everyone is happy.

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Originally Posted by TheJamJam

Imagine making your playerbase pay for a subscription just to have them spend a huge chunk of their limited playtime due to work on cutscenes... Yeah less people would touch the game if it worked that way.

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A huge chunk, however, is wrong.

The longest cutscenes are usually around 2 Minutes, so let's not always blow that entirely out of proportions.

Kinda tiring if people make it out to be that 1-2 Minutes will kill their entire schedule in, especially alliance raids. That can take up to double the amount if its not CT (even in CT sometimes) and people keep dying or are asleep on their keyboard.
It's not going to kill your entire schedule.

You dont want to wait, i get it, but it will not kill your entire schedule.

Thordan is a case where the cutscene at the start is longer than the entire fight, he just starts being dramatic and wastes even more time.
Would be cool if he wouldnt be such a pushover.
Cape westwind ist any better in that regard.

Is a gamedeisgn issue for those two tho...

Edit: I know i'm not better, thanks for understanding! Just my opinion to it though...

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Thordan is a case where the cutscene at the start is longer than the entire fight, he just starts being dramatic and wastes even more time.
Would be cool if he wouldnt be such a pushover.
Cape westwind ist any better in that regard.

Is a gamedeisgn issue for those two tho...

Edit: I know i'm not better, thanks for understanding! Just my opinion to it though...

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Take for example the cutscene with Lahabrea in The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, that one is depending on how fast someone reads through it, near 3 min. The fight itself doesn't last 3 min.

Then grab a bunch of dungeons/raids and add up the cutscene minutes from there.

To make it funkier, add the queuing times for some dungeons, which as dps, can take around 20 min. Sure you can do something else in that meantime but it's still considered waiting time.

Yeah, you have no idea how much it all adds up. There's no logical sense in making all cutscenes forced to watch.

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Originally Posted by TheJamJam

Take for example the cutscene with Lahabrea in The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak, that one is depending on how fast someone reads through it, near 3 min. The fight itself doesn't last 3 min.

Then grab a bunch of dungeons/raids and add up the cutscene minutes from there.

To make it funkier, add the queuing times for some dungeons, which as dps, can take around 20 min. Sure you can do something else in that meantime but it's still considered waiting time.

Yeah, you have no idea how much it all adds up. There's no logical sense in making all cutscenes forced to watch.

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Did want to say, queue times can be longer.

I legit dont remember Toto-Rak cutscene so i may be wrong. But ARR and some HW stuff just aren't... that good designwise. Includes cutscenes. As said with thordan and cape westwind, too.
I give you that point. Very right.

I dont want them to be forced either, that would be stupid, but they do not take up the "most" of your playtime, ever. Not even "a huge chunk" That's just abit overblown.
For the few cases where things just die when you look at them, this may be true, but for anything else in this game, it is not.

Forcing them still isnt the right way to go.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Did want to say, queue times can be longer.

I legit dont remember Toto-Rak cutscene so i may be wrong. But ARR and some HW stuff just aren't... that good designwise. Includes cutscenes. As said with thordan and cape westwind, too.
I give you that point. Very right.

I dont want them to be forced either, that would be stupid, but they do not take up the "most" of your playtime, ever. Not even "a huge chunk" That's just abit overblown.
For the few cases where things just die when you look at them, this may be true, but for anything else in this game, it is not.

Forcing them still isnt the right way to go.

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The totorak cutscene is an especially weird one because if you hop off the ledge the boss aggros instantly. No other boss works like that and everytime i see someone hop in I wonder if they forgot about that.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

That compensation is solely to fill the content. Nothing more. You think people would fill the now mandatory crystal tower raids if there was no incentive to do so? Take away the “compensation” and watch how long your queues become

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No, you get compensation for queuing as part of your daily roulette and on top of that a new player bonus. So you get more for having a new player yet people brush that aside and pull immediately? Maybe revoke the bonus if people pull while someone is still showing as 'watching cutscene'. lol

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

No, you get compensation for queuing as part of your daily roulette and on top of that a new player bonus. So you get more for having a new player yet people brush that aside and pull immediately? Maybe revoke the bonus if people pull while someone is still showing as 'watching cutscene'. lol

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The extra new player bonus is so meaningless, tons of people would actually take that tradeoff if you were to force that choice on them.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

No, you get compensation for queuing as part of your daily roulette and on top of that a new player bonus. So you get more for having a new player yet people brush that aside and pull immediately? Maybe revoke the bonus if people pull while someone is still showing as 'watching cutscene'. lol

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Although I like this idea I do see potential problems with it. You would have the people in a rush that then pressure the sprout to skip the cutscene because if the sprout cancels it they still get the bonus. You also would have some people that will go pull the boss to be jerks by intentionally preventing others from waiting and getting the bonus xp. It is however a decent start at a solution.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

The totorak cutscene is an especially weird one because if you hop off the ledge the boss aggros instantly. No other boss works like that and everytime i see someone hop in I wonder if they forgot about that.

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Yeah, screw that boss arena, slipped more than once into it (or others).

Go away weirdo, i dont want your aggro.

Also you dont even need to "hop" off, you just kinda... slip in there. Like, by no choice of your own.