The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

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Originally Posted by vehere

I mean... we have Edda and Thordin and Ala Mhigo's old king, Zenos, there's others... if we're judging a faction based on how many unstable folk are in it, we aren't looking too good ourselves. This isn't getting into how many people turned into Blasphemies because they were (like Hermes) at the depths of their despair, anger, or sorrow.

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Yeah we don't do much better, I doubt that had much bearing on Venat's decision to not tell the Convocation about Meteion though.

Our unstable folk don't threaten all life in the Universe either, we can afford to be a little unstable. ;)

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Originally Posted by vehere

How would knowing of Meteion make things make sense when they still agreed to the Sundering and leave everything up to the gamble that some person in the future will solve the problem?

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Explaining the events of Elpis does not mean leaving everything to a gamble. Hydaelyn would still be an active presence helping to lead those willing to “fight for the morrow” towards Meteion. And Venat made clear before we left Elpis that she isn’t just hoping we turn up, but will be actively fighting for the best outcome in all possible situations.

https://i.imgur.com/uWFfU3I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OzegOYw.jpg

[QUOTE=vehere;5828727] There was absolutely no mention of Meteion or that "there's a mysterious energy coming from outer space coming from a bird girl making our powers go nuts" in Anyder.[QUOTE]

It was a millennia old recording buried under the sea. It’s not going to be comprehensive.

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Originally Posted by vehere

It's very clear that they only knew it to be something coming from within the ground, that somehow the aether was weakening. The recording at Anyder shows not that they don't believe Zodiark hasn't fixing things but that they think the effort to return to normal isn't right at the expense of other life.

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That’s not what the recording shows though, they don’t mention the sacrifice at all in that conversation.

https://i.imgur.com/AQSLCDm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EhGIJz2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/G6s1pCc.jpg

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Originally Posted by vehere

And even if they did know, then the Convocation would have found out too, wouldn't they? Unless you're suggesting Venat told her group to not tell the Convocation about Meteion's existence so they could do the Sundering unimpeded?

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The Sundering certainly didn’t go unimpeded, the battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark raged for some time before the desperate final blow was struck. And yes I do believe she told them why she thinks they shouldn’t tell the Convocation, for the very same reasons she herself didn’t tell them.

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Originally Posted by vehere

Because if they did know, and if they did decide that trying to pursue Meteion was just too hard for them, then they're just as bad as the Convocation. Giving up so that someone else will hopefully fix the problems.

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Saying the current path is untenable, and taking drastic action, is not exactly giving up. Remember Venat and her faction don’t seem to distinguish between the Sundered and Unsundered like the Ascians do, to them mankind succeeded.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

To be fair, considering how Hesperos is obsessed with him to a Tempering level, it already doesn't look good for how sane he is, since he may have accidentally or purposefully created Tempering, or at least that's how it looks right now. Though we'll find out at least at 6.2 for the next part of the raid story.

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This is interesting to me though because, based on Elidibus’ memories at least, Lahabrea was sane enough to still go out and care about Elidibus’ well-being when he too was working himself too hard. So he couldn’t have been that far gone unless they forgot about that or retconned it lol

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

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Nothing there says they knew it was Meteion or the actual source of the Sound. Unless the Japanese version says "Meteion is at the end of the universe, Singing our despair into existence", your quotes don't support your position at all. In fact they directly contradict you, since they aren't saying "this is the fault of outside sources, specifically Hermes escaped creation called Meteion", they're saying "Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom", but they don't mention anything about it being because of Meteion's song.

If anything it seems Venat just told the Convocation "hey guys Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom" "why not?" "because he's just not. Trust me bro, I'm Venat." "I mean can you give us an actual reason?" "No, I don't need to. You just need to listen to me."

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Yeah we don't do much better, I doubt that had much bearing on Venat's decision to not tell the Convocation about Meteion though.

Our unstable folk don't threaten all life in the Universe either, we can afford to be a little unstable. ;)

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Well, I guess Zenos is like 10% Seymour Guado (with the obsessive stalking and coming back from death to continue stalking us). So we're going to need to find our own Sephiroth and Kuja at some point.

And then there was Xande who wanted to either destroy the world and/or take out the entire universe with him because of his nihilism but luckily the WoL doesn't need to deal with him except when farming tomestones.

Or rather what I'm saying is that this is a Final Fantasy game I 100% expect we're going to get another big bad who threatens existence again in a future expansion lol

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Originally Posted by vehere

Nothing there says they knew it was Meteion or the actual source of the Sound. Unless the Japanese version says "Meteion is at the end of the universe, Singing our despair into existence", your quotes don't support your position at all. In fact they directly contradict you, since they aren't saying "this is the fault of outside sources, specifically Hermes escaped creation called Meteion", they're saying "Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom", but they don't mention anything about it being because of Meteion's song.

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First, let’s agree that those at the meeting did indeed say Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution and that they weren’t saying:

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Originally Posted by vehere

The recording at Anyder shows not that they don't believe Zodiark hasn't fixing things but that they think the effort to return to normal isn't right at the expense of other life.

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And if you’re looking for a direct quote from a member of Venats faction saying the word Meteion, then yes you’re not going to get one. My point was that they clearly knew more than simply that they shouldn’t sacrifice more lives. When combined with Venats statements as we leave Elpis

https://i.imgur.com/n2DVA5b.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J42AUpK.jpg

Then we’re left with several clear facts.

1. Venat intended to recruit a group of trusted confidants to help with the fight against Meteion
2. The group that met at Anyder knew that Zodiark was not a solution to the Final Days despite him halting all signs of it
3. This group would summon Hydaelyn and Sunder Zodiark and Etheirys
4. There’s no evidence that any of Venats group were unwilling to commit to the present course and in fact accepted the “eternal condemnation of their brethren.”

Thus, we have reason to believe the group knew more than most of the events surrounding the Final Days, and that they were prepared to face their brethren's wrath.

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Originally Posted by vehere

If anything it seems Venat just told the Convocation "hey guys Zodiark isn't enough to stop our doom" "why not?" "because he's just not. Trust me bro, I'm Venat." "I mean can you give us an actual reason?" "No, I don't need to. You just need to listen to me."

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I think it’s likely she was a bit more diplomatic then this tbf. :p

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This is interesting to me though because, based on Elidibus’ memories at least, Lahabrea was sane enough to still go out and care about Elidibus’ well-being when he too was working himself too hard. So he couldn’t have been that far gone unless they forgot about that or retconned it lol

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It does not seem likely that old Lahabrea, who did not care much about his son, would somehow care about Elidibus. It is much more likely that Erichtionios, who met Elidibus in Pandaemonium and thus came to care about him, is our Lahabrea.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

It does not seem likely that old Lahabrea, who did not care much about his son, would somehow care about Elidibus. It is much more likely that Erichtionios, who met Elidibus in Pandaemonium and thus came to care about him, is our Lahabrea.

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The problem with that is that, per Emet-Selch, the Lahabrea who was eaten by Thordan was the same Lahabrea who created Phoinix. Erichthonius sucks at using any magic at all, with the only notable exception being the sealing magic used in Pandaemonium.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The problem with that is that, per Emet-Selch, the Lahabrea who was eaten by Thordan was the same Lahabrea who created Phoinix. Erichthonius sucks at using any magic at all, with the only notable exception being the sealing magic used in Pandaemonium.

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Yep exactly my point. It’s why a lot of this doesn’t add up and that completely refutes the erich is our lahabrea theory.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yep exactly my point. It’s why a lot of this doesn’t add up and that completely refutes the erich is our lahabrea theory.

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It does however, make it likely that The Watcher is based on Erich, since The Watcher was skilled only with sealing magic.

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Originally Posted by vehere

Well, I guess Zenos is like 10% Seymour Guado (with the obsessive stalking and coming back from death to continue stalking us). So we're going to need to find our own Sephiroth and Kuja at some point.

And then there was Xande who wanted to either destroy the world and/or take out the entire universe with him because of his nihilism but luckily the WoL doesn't need to deal with him except when farming tomestones.

Or rather what I'm saying is that this is a Final Fantasy game I 100% expect we're going to get another big bad who threatens existence again in a future expansion lol

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To be fair, Venat likely wouldn't have told Zenos or Xande about Meteion either.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It does however, make it likely that The Watcher is based on Erich, since The Watcher was skilled only with sealing magic.

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That’s a possibility, although we don’t know just how many other people there are who may be skilled in sealing magicks. In fact the next tier could very well introduce us to some other wardens who have a knack for it.Although, i think it's stated that the watcher was referred to as a researcher friend of Venat's. So unless she shows up in Panda i dont see it as a possibility very much.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So I was a tad unclear when writing that, but I wasn't referring to the axe, but rather the final ring of light for the last phase in the Hades fight. I previously made the claim that one wasn't the Blessing and got corrected, and it's certainly unclear in the script we usually see if it really is the Blessing or if it's Lightwarden Juice, but the buff itself (including what it gets replaced with if your team struggles enough that it runs out) makes it clear that's Hydaelyn's doing. Hades also has more script than he gets through in your average Normals, where it becomes clear that the ring of light you're fighting in for that last stretch is Hydaelyn's work, and he recognizes it as the light that split his world.

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A bit (read: very) late on getting around to this, but I just so happened to get the Hades fight in trial roulette yesterday and remembered this portion of the debate. I looked at the buff you get during the last phase, and the text for it says outright that you are using the "light trapped within." The ring you fight in, as well as your ability to break free from Emet-Selch's spell in the first place, are quite clearly intended to be the result of the light you absorbed being put to use. This is something enabled very likely through a combination of Venat's ward and Ardbert's sacrifice, but it is not a direct act on her part.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

A bit (read: very) late on getting around to this, but I just so happened to get the Hades fight in trial roulette yesterday and remembered this portion of the debate. I looked at the buff you get during the last phase, and the text for it says outright that you are using the "light trapped within." The ring you fight in, as well as your ability to break free from Emet-Selch's spell in the first place, are quite clearly intended to be the result of the light you absorbed being put to use. This is something enabled very likely through a combination of Venat's ward and Ardbert's sacrifice, but it is not a direct act on her part.

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From what I understand, if you fail that final stretch, the debuff of 'Beyond Light' actually makes it clearer, but I can't find the text for it and am not about to go fail at Hades to find it myself!

Even if it wasn't, remember what was: she brought Ardbert's crew back to stop the Flood of Light.

She literally did actively stop exactly that Calamity at least once, plausibly twice. And through that, we can tell that even for her, stopping a Calamity is really hard, which explains why over twelve thousand years, she failed to block a few of the Ascians' goal kicks.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

A bit (read: very) late on getting around to this, but I just so happened to get the Hades fight in trial roulette yesterday and remembered this portion of the debate. I looked at the buff you get during the last phase, and the text for it says outright that you are using the "light trapped within." The ring you fight in, as well as your ability to break free from Emet-Selch's spell in the first place, are quite clearly intended to be the result of the light you absorbed being put to use. This is something enabled very likely through a combination of Venat's ward and Ardbert's sacrifice, but it is not a direct act on her part.

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The key to this portion of the Hades fight is found in Hades' dialogue after he inflicts, "Life in Captivity" on the party. You're wrapped in chains, and get the ATE which is labeled, "Unleash Light." The ATE is preceded by the text, "The Light within Her champions grows faint..."

When you break the chains at the end of the ATE, Hades ponders, "Has the Wardens' light won free? No... DAMN YOU! DAMN YOUR WRETCHED BLESSING!"

The combined light being expelled from the party turns the stage white, and you go from having the buff, "Light Beyond Darkness" to having a buff from the floor called, "Light in the Dark."

You go on fighting Hades, and he says, "I will extinguish the spark of your miserable lives!" And then casts Dark Devours multiple times. He has a voice line after each chain of Dark Devours causes the Light within the arena to grow smaller.

"That Light split the world and every life upon it!"

Dark Devours

"Our tragedy must never again come to pass!"

Dark Devours

"By His grace will Darkness reign over all!"

The Darkness becomes an impenetrable shroud, encompassing all.

"Death comes for Her servants."

Enrage cast of Black Cauldron begins.

While you might not be wrong that it's not a direct intervention, the Blessing is so apparent in this moment that Hades sees it as what's contesting him rather than us or the Lightwardens. I don't doubt that the Lightwarden juice is the fuel for it, but it's the Blessing doing Goddess's work.

The Blessing is a car, the WoL is the driver, and the Lightwardens are the petrol.

You're not going to get anywhere fast without all 3. :p

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

While you might not be wrong that it's not a direct intervention, the Blessing is so apparent in this moment that Hades sees it as what's contesting him rather than us or the Lightwardens. I don't doubt that the Lightwarden juice is the fuel for it, but it's the Blessing doing Goddess's work.

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That would be precisely the point I am making, yes. I'm not denying that Venat's ward was a key component. It was, elsewise it's doubtful the WoL could have contained all that light, let alone actively used it without becoming a Lightwarden. The ward prevented their aether from being corrupted by the light (which I'll note is its primary function according to Endwalker), the WoL's strong soul and absurd force of will enabled them to contain that light as long as they did, and Ardbert's sacrifice strengthening them further was more or less the missing piece that allowed their near-to-shattering soul to stabilize long enough for them to channel it.

What I've always figured actually happened (and I do grant that this is mere supposition on my part) is the excess light being used to empower the ward, thereby allowing it to momentarily reach the potency we saw from it back in ARR when it formed a barrier to saveus from Ultima (though, in the case of Ultima, that was clearly direct interventionon Venat's part) and thereby expand outward to contest Hades' darkness directly.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

The main reasons for her doing that are, yes, to diminish our Aether so we could have a chance at manipulating Dynamis so we could oppose Meteion, but also, and that's an even bigger reason, the fact that by expelling us from the paradise and making us into less-perfect creatures who "don't fly, and instead walk" as she puts it, she FORESTALLED OUR END. The civilization of the unsundered world was on a sure path to become one other of the myriad ones in the cosmos who would meet their end - they were following in the footsteps of the Ea and the 17th planet (the one from the 3rd section of the dead ends dungeon). Upon achieving perfection, they'd fall into apathy and probably "return to the star" en masse, commiting mass suicide and ending their civilization. They ALREADY HINTED during the Elpis arc that it's par for the course for them to just kill themselves when they feel their task in life is accomplished. So, by making us flawed and imperfect, she gave our world a new lease on life, an eternal struggle towards perfection that is unattainable, incomplete as we are.

I would wager that the Sundering is the main reason why Etheirys managed to avert sharing the fate of the other planets in the cosmos, and become the "sole beacon of hope in the cosmos", as Midgarsormr puts it.

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I am happy because Yoshi-P pretty much confirmed all I said here in the Live Letter 68 that happened yesterday <3
I think we can nail that coffin once and for all in this front.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

I am happy because Yoshi-P pretty much confirmed all I said here in the Live Letter 68 that happened yesterday <3
I think we can nail that coffin once and for all in this front.

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Confirmed what? All he said was Venat believed the ancients would probably be heading for the outcome of the other civilizations. That’s without her even intervening though. Had she let the truth out perhaps they would have flourished. Instead she allows the calamities to take place and for millions to die.

So the current races are not the "new life"... but then Yoshida revealing that they all "evolved" after the Sundering feels like a pretty big fuck up? Why are they the same on the First (and, I assume, the other Shards) then...? There's no longer a reason or explanation

(I will not accept "convergent evolution" as the explanation)

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

So the current races are not the "new life"... but then Yoshida revealing that they all "evolved" after the Sundering feels like a pretty big fuck up? Why are they the same on the First (and, I assume, the other Shards) then...? There's no longer a reason or explanation

(I will not accept "convergent evolution" as the explanation)

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Yeah... I'd rather hear what Oda/Ishikawa/Koji has to say on that. Several of his answers in the Q&A he mentioned he had Oda or Ishikawa help on, like the one about Venat's thoughts on the Ancients, but that one felt like he just said whatever was on his mind without thinking about it all the way. The Mystel do seem different from the Miqo'te in that their gender ratio is evenly split, but otherwise they're completely the same and it's a bit weird to give what he gave as an answer when a lot of the other answers were much more detailed and thought out.

I feel like having the player races be the "new life" that was going to be sacrificed to resurrect and free the Ancients that summoned Zodiark would have been an elegant if dark solution to our creation. It would kind of obviate Emet-Selch's blustering about how we weren't people because we were sundered, if the Ancients didn't view us as real people to begin with, however.

I can't help but wonder if perhaps the Sharlayans are aware of the origin of the races but classified it as sensitive information that needed to be kept under lock and key in their forbidden archives.

There's a rather significant gap in recorded history prior to the fourth astral/umbral era, but they evidently do possess tomes that are believed to hail from the eras prior to that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Confirmed what? All he said was Venat believed the ancients would probably be heading for the outcome of the other civilizations. That’s without her even intervening though. Had she let the truth out perhaps they would have flourished. Instead she allows the calamities to take place and for millions to die.

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He confirmed a lot, actually, the answer to that question was LOOOOOOOONG. And part of it was, indeed, 'this was the only plan that would have worked for the end she was going for'. Venat's plan was the only way to stop Meteion.

However, then you come to the question of 'was stopping Meteion necessary', since Zodiark was essentially indefinite protection; she was a non-factor until Amon made her one. There is no one answer to this question, because both Venat and Emet-Selch were flawed and imperfect people with flawed and imperfect outlooks. Neither of them were 'right', morally speaking.

But Venat's plan was the only one that would have worked to stop Meteion. You can't just declare there to be a magic better option, going against the writer, director, and all voices in the narrative itself if you're intending to have a constructive conversation about things; Yoshi-P, with extensive information from Ishikawa, declared that to be the only plan that would've worked, and the entire story says exactly this as well. Declaring all of those sources to be wrong basically just leaves you writing fanfiction.

And that's without going into specifically how you've decided things would've turned out to be better, because 'telling everyone' is pretty much the very first thing Venat shoots down after Ktisis, for the very good reason of 'this would make people freak the hell out and not do anything productive'. The Ancients are not as a whole rational actors, or if we're honest really all that smart. They do not handle extremely bad news especially well, as we see directly in the post-Elpis cutscene.

It is not useful, productive, or even true to declare there to be a secret, better third option.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

He confirmed a lot, actually, the answer to that question was LOOOOOOOONG. And part of it was, indeed, 'this was the only plan that would have worked for the end she was going for'. Venat's plan was the only way to stop Meteion.

However, then you come to the question of 'was stopping Meteion necessary', since Zodiark was essentially indefinite protection; she was a non-factor until Amon made her one. There is no one answer to this question, because both Venat and Emet-Selch were flawed and imperfect people with flawed and imperfect outlooks. Neither of them were 'right', morally speaking.

But Venat's plan was the only one that would have worked to stop Meteion. You can't just declare there to be a magic better option, going against the writer, director, and all voices in the narrative itself if you're intending to have a constructive conversation about things; Yoshi-P, with extensive information from Ishikawa, declared that to be the only plan that would've worked, and the entire story says exactly this as well. Declaring all of those sources to be wrong basically just leaves you writing fanfiction.

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You might want to note that Yoshida's entire response to that question was predicated with "Venat believed". And as you kindly point out, Venat is as flawed and imperfect as anyone else with her own flawed and imperfect outlook.

Yep, Yoshida does not claim that it's the only plan that would've worked. It is indeed a function of Venat's belief that the ancients could not have stopped the Final Days. At most what he is saying is that had they continued as they were (a function of not being given the full story behind what was happening), their fate would probably be similar to the Plenty. Inferring from this that her plan was the only one which would work under alternative circumstances, then trying to gaslight other posters by saying that the writer and director and "all the voices" in the narrative are suggesting any other plan was doomed, is not exactly the most intellectually honest approach. And yes, you very much can (and some of us will) posit that you'd like to see how alternative scenarios would've worked out, where she had revealed the truth. The answer he is giving is to explain why she's not a villain - not to try shut down any contemplation of alternatives, which would be rather antithetical to their typical approach.

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Q: Venat had good intentions and her plan worked out in the end. But as a result the world was Sundered and most of the Ancients suffered. Was Sundering the star really the only way to save it? A: This is a question that I consulted with Nacchan (Natsuko Ishikawa, Scenario Writer of Endwalker) to come up with the answer so it will make sense when we explain it. At the very least, as Y’shtola theorizes, Venat believed that the Ancients, being so dense in Aether, could not control Dynamis. So she thought they could not have stopped the Final Days and its source. So you know there were other Ancients who thought summoning Zodiark would solve everything but she saw that summoning Zodiark and using it to deflect Meteion’s “Despair Beam” and thought, “even if we were to do this and keep going as we are the rest of the Ancients will probably be unable to change as a people” when she’s looking at Hermes, or “we will always be our own undoing”. If you look at the dungeon, “The Dead Ends”, at the very end there’s a boss called Ra-la, and that’s sort of our vision for what probably would have happened to the Ancients if we just let them continue as they were. So for that reason, she chose to Sunder the star to dilute mankind’s Aether so that someday they might be able to use Dynamis and to fight back against despair and the Final Days at the Source. As she herself says, this is not a simple matter of good and evil and she is agonized over whether her decision is correct and took it all upon herself all these time. I think everyone has a lot of different feelings about Venat and we wanted to communicate to you that Hydaelyn is not evil. However this is the decision she has made and she decided to split the world into 14 parts so that humans can use Dynamis and kill Endsinger, and that decision really makes me think, “Yeah, Venat is definitely an Ancient, huh”.

At the end of 5.0 we find out that Emet-Selch has been making these decisions about all of humanity and its imperfection. But at the very end he did grant you one more chance to re-evaluated his judgment. Hermes is also concerned with this to the degree that he erases his memory so that he can once again re-evaluate humanity and everything. He’s really concerned with fairness and humanity’s worth. Venat herself never talks about herself in this lofty way that she is making a judgment on all of mankind but when we see her holding the sword and say “Henceforth he shall walk” and Sundering the world, that really is an ancient moment that shows you how different the wholeness of these Ancient’s worth because normally we normal humans wouldn’t be able to make such a decision for all of mankind, so when I see that I really think, yeah, Venat was really one of them. I do get that Emet-Selch is really popular but I sort of agree with Alphinaud when Emet is talking about judging people and think, “What right does he have to do that?”, and that might be applicable to Venat too, like “What right does she have to do that?” with showing various things about the Ancients and how different they were from us as people and how they were sort of the same, so I think if you go back and look at all of the different parts including the side quest including the Ancients in them, you might find them interesting.

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Transcript courtesy of iluna minori on the reddit discord - minor wording differences relative to this but nothing fundamental.

(At this point I would've liked someone to remind him of all the sundered characters that tried to inflict their judgement or decisions on mankind as a whole... sometimes even an entire timeline...)

As for the poster's other claims, I'd be intrigued to see how they handled "bad news" (really, platitudes about suffering) while the world was burning/dying around them.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yep, Yoshida does not claim that it's the only plan that would've worked. It is indeed a function of Venat's belief that the ancients could not have stopped the Final Days. At most what he is saying is that had they continued as they were (a function of not being given the full story behind what was happening), their fate would probably be similar to the Plenty. Inferring from this that her plan was the only one which would work under alternative circumstances, then trying to gaslight other posters by saying that the writer and director and "all the voices" in the narrative are suggesting any other plan was doomed, is not exactly the most intellectually honest approach. And yes, you very much can (and some of us will) posit that you'd like to see how alternative scenarios would've worked out, where she had revealed the truth. The answer he is giving is to explain why she's not a villain - not to try shut down any contemplation of alternatives, which would be rather antithetical to their typical approach.

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The Dead Ends part of the explanation feels particularly important here however. Though he did lead in with a probably, the fact that the Plenty is “our” (the dev teams) views for how the Ancients probably would have ended, lends at least a little credence to her view while I agree it does not close out alternative viewpoints entirely.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

(At this point I would've liked someone to remind him of all the sundered characters that tried to inflict their judgement or decisions on mankind as a whole... sometimes even an entire timeline...)

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Lauront, I’m not saying go buy a cake, but I’m just saying I’ll bring snacks and drinks to celebrate this truly auspicious day.

I think we agree completely.

This story, and human history, is filled with characters who for right and wrong reasons made decisions for others and even all of humanity, often ones of great complexity and moral weight. The Ancients are nowhere near special for that and in fact I’d say it’s one of the traits that gives the most reason to see them as human in my opinion. To say it’s a very “Ancient” thing to do is very off the mark to me.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

As for the poster's other claims, I'd be intrigued to see how they handled "bad news" (really, platitudes about suffering) while the world was burning/dying around them.

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I'd like to say I would do my best to help people who still live, I've been in emergency situations, done that, and would probably do so again if the scale was larger. But the difference between myself and the Ancients is that I've had a life of 'tragedies happen and we have to move on'. I've had rather a few loved ones in my life die unfairly and unexpectedly, but we as humans know that while we can and should mourn, we should also get back up and move on. The Ancients as a whole just didn't have that, so they had no coping mechanisms and no framework for how to continue. It's a tragic mistake, but still a mistake.

I assume you have lived to see loved ones die--although I would hope not many and not suddenly. But when you have, I assume that you didn't respond to it by going Dr. Frankenstein to undo the tragedy, as the Ancients did.

But let's flip the question: if the situation excuses or makes right the Ancients' actions, then surely others put into the same situation will do the same. And... well, we have examples for that. Two, actually.

Thavnair faces the rather direct parallel, also facing the End of Days. But while they struggle, they ultimately find the strength to stand; in listening to their beliefs built up in the face of life and tragedy, they move on, and they recover. Matsya is their Venat, and... honestly, his words are both no less true and no more inherently convincing. But they work, because those around him already know the message.

Garlemald, too, faces their own reckoning, although by different hands. They also face the death of all they know, the shattering of their worldview. They do not have a Venat, at least not in a singular person, but they do have the Distressed Ancient in the form of Quintus; the man convinced they can turn back the clock. But in Garlemald's case, it's that the crowd doesn't side with him; the other Legions recognize what's ahead of them, and ultimately, Garlemald realizes they have to move on.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

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Then let’s look at the black rose calamity. Where they did exactly that, turning back the clock, willing to sacrifice millions to save us. This is portrayed as a rather heroic act. The interesting anomaly here in both thavnair and garlemald is that the WoL was present for all of this, a more rejoined sundered individual that was there to assist them time and time again. Were it not for this said individual, they all would have perished and given up, as we see in Thavnair, only a small amount of people seem to survive, the skies riddled with blasphemies and that very dark scene showing just how susceptible the sundered were in turning. The same in Garlemald.

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen? The fact is whatever her horrible excuses for not intervening beforehand may be, she intervened after the calamity had already struck, when she had knowledge of it beforehand. Just as the ancients are said to be wrong for placing all their beliefs in one “god”(Zodiark), Venat placed all of her beliefs in the WoL. A single person. The move on theme is rather hollow when there is yet hope in saving those who are not truly lost. The WoL didn’t simply move on from the first, they stayed and went through Eden to help it slowly grow back. The WoL didn’t simply move on from Ishgard. He stayed and slowly helped it rebuild itself. The ironworks didn’t simply move on and accept their fate in the world of the calamity. They worked to turn back the clock and give themselves another chance. The Ancients were trying to do no different. They just didn’t conform to Venat’s views, so she played god.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Then let’s look at the black rose calamity. Where they did exactly that, turning back the clock, willing to sacrifice millions to save us. This is portrayed as a rather heroic act. The interesting anomaly here in both thavnair and garlemald is that the WoL was present for all of this, a more rejoined sundered individual that was there to assist them time and time again. Were it not for this said individual, they all would have perished and given up, as we see in Thavnair, only a small amount of people seem to survive, the skies riddled with blasphemies and that very dark scene showing just how susceptible the sundered were in turning. The same in Garlemald.

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen? The fact is whatever her horrible excuses for not intervening beforehand may be, she intervened after the calamity had already struck, when she had knowledge of it beforehand. Just as the ancients are said to be wrong for placing all their beliefs in one “god”(Zodiark), Venat placed all of her beliefs in the WoL. A single person. The move on theme is rather hollow when there is yet hope in saving those who are not truly lost. The WoL didn’t simply move on from the first, they stayed and went through Eden to help it slowly grow back. The WoL didn’t simply move on from Ishgard. He stayed and slowly helped it rebuild itself. The ironworks didn’t simply move on and accept their fate in the world of the calamity. They worked to turn back the clock and give themselves another chance. The Ancients were trying to do no different. They just didn’t conform to Venat’s views, so she played god.

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Okay?

This is explicitly meant to be a question with no clear right or wrong answer, that falls to you to decide on, and I will clearly not be convincing you away from your stance (your signature honestly already made that crystal-clear). You have very clearly looked at the facts as they lie and decided that Venat was the greater evil; meanwhile, I'm looking at her opposition and going 'you know what, the lady that needs to have a dedicated shampoo and conditioner budget is the one I am more comfortable with'.

...and now that I describe her like that, I wonder if Venat is meant to share a resemblance with Ysayle in terms of both general character design and concept. Ysayle is also a morally ambiguous character taking a strong stance that I ultimately consider the greater good in that situation. ...who also just so happens to turn into a giant lady with a monumentally powerful kick/stomp.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Venat attempted to confront a group of people only after the calamity had already struck. I actually remember another poster’s analogy here that seemed to fit quite well. Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen?

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https://i.imgur.com/hYpyBCY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UhXQfEC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5Rg9sLs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/32GwL3W.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ex0aFIi.jpg

…yeah, actually I think they would’ve.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen?

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The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:

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Know this my children. There is more ugliness than beauty in this world.

To live is to suffer. To drink of calamity and drown in anguish. To toil and be tested, always and ever.

'Tis a perilous path you walk. Death lurks in the dark, and is the sole promise that awaits at journey's end.

You will tremble with terror. You will weep tears of anger and despair

But do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.

Then you will see how the hardships make you strong. Every doubt reforged as scales for your armor. Every agony to temper your blade.

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So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

Sure is lucky they were bailed out by a godlike hero before 75+% of their people were dead and their civilization along with the entire rest of the world was reduced to a smoking ruin.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:



So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

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You’re completely missing the point. This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao. Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have. It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.

Actually, I think that of all zones in the game, the Thavnair revisit is the one where the WoL is the least influential on the eventual positive result. All we really did was kill the Blasphemy (even then not solo), which didn't exactly do a whole lot in the short term. The real contributors to overcoming the End of Days--which is much more a psychological battle than anything--are Vrtra, Ahewann, Matsya and Estinien. And Estinien was mostly just Vrtra's moral support.

There's a good few zones and side stories where the story can essentially boil down to 'it's a good thing Superman turned up', but the Thavnair revisit is perhaps the one that has that going on the least, we're mostly just seeing Thavnair handle itself. Hell, we don't even get full credit for the baby save, that's a three to five person job depending on if you give the twins an assist credit. I think Y'shtola has more influence on the story in that stretch than we do, and her contribution is 'being blind'.

And Vrtra is hardly an external factor in Thavnair. He's a Thavnairian citizen as much as anyone else, and doesn't actually contribute by way of 'being a dragon', he contributes by way of being a trusted leader who steps up when he needs to.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Actually, I think that of all zones in the game, the Thavnair revisit is the one where the WoL is the least influential on the eventual positive result. All we really did was kill the Blasphemy (even then not solo), which didn't exactly do a whole lot in the short term. The real contributors to overcoming the End of Days--which is much more a psychological battle than anything--are Vrtra, Ahewann, Matsya and Estinien. And Estinien was mostly just Vrtra's moral support.

There's a good few zones and side stories where the story can essentially boil down to 'it's a good thing Superman turned up', but the Thavnair revisit is perhaps the one that has that going on the least, we're mostly just seeing Thavnair handle itself. Hell, we don't even get full credit for the baby save, that's a three to five person job depending on if you give the twins an assist credit. I think Y'shtola has more influence on the story in that stretch than we do, and her contribution is 'being blind'.

And Vrtra is hardly an external factor in Thavnair. He's a Thavnairian citizen as much as anyone else, and doesn't actually contribute by way of 'being a dragon', he contributes by way of being a trusted leader who steps up when he needs to.

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Afaik, the baby only survived because we showed up. Afaik, Matsya only survived because we were there to hold the monsters off from the baby while Matsya ran off. Which, afaik, Matsya only survived because of Vrtra showing up. And again, we have an entire settlement and then clearly some more considering the amount of blasphemies in the sky that seem to show the majority of thavnair turned. Hell, one of them turned because a business inquiry went sour and the guy was scared of losing his job. That’s how susceptible they were.

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

That's truly a bizarre interpretation. Suffering is an emotional state that occurs in response to pain. It's internal, not external. Amaurot wasn't a society of emotionless robots.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re completely missing the point.

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Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao.

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Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have.

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It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.

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How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Afaik, the baby only survived because we showed up. Afaik, Matsya only survived because we were there to hold the monsters off from the baby while Matsya ran off. Which, afaik, Matsya only survived because of Vrtra showing up. And again, we have an entire settlement and then clearly some more considering the amount of blasphemies in the sky that seem to show the majority of thavnair turned. Hell, one of them turned because a business inquiry went sour and the guy was scared of losing his job. That’s how susceptible they were.

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The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

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What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?



Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.



It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.




How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.



The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.



What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

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Again, considering the amount of blasphemies we see, it’s pretty clear a not-insignificant amount gave in to despair. We only see 2 small settlements survive, and one of them only had a few survivors remaining. The Ancients didn’t despair or give in like the sundered did, they let their hope give rise to Zodiark. My point is, as i’ve stated numerous times now had you actually read my posts, is that without the WoL or Vrtra both places we see the final days hit would be entirely doomed. Their survival depended on 1-2 people, one of which is unsundered and the other is 9/14th. The sundered didn’t do it on their own, they had help from higher up entities.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

That's truly a bizarre interpretation. Suffering is an emotional state that occurs in response to pain. It's internal, not external. Amaurot wasn't a society of emotionless robots.

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I'm not sure how it would qualify as 'bizarre'. Perhaps you could read my post again? I specifically stated:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either.

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I didn't suggest that the Ancients were a society of emotionless robots, either - so I'm not sure where that claim is coming from.

People aren't obligated to just go along with whatever tragedy subversive societal elements decide to inflict upon everybody else, especially if they're in a position to mitigate said event.