*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

even if we had done exactly what emet wanted and everything went right, the rejoining wouldn't be perfect. the void is still useless.

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This assumes it could never be fixed. If the Empty on the First can be reversed, I see no reason why a way couldn't be found to fix the Void eventually.

Re: The effects of the sundering on the Ancients

Even Emet's retelling of events in ShB are somewhat contradictory, and perhaps that can be explained by them not wanting to create a new model to act as what Ryne would've been turned into, which we know wouldn't have been an exact copy as depicted. As I recall, both Emet and Elidibus refer to the Ancients post-sundering as being "malformed creatures" and, according to Varis (who obviously would've gotten his info from the unsundered), the sundering is what caused the different races to come into existence.

https://i.imgur.com/4abHqBS.jpg

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The dread of an axe murderer in your kitchen supersedes the dread of existentialism. The Ancients clearly wanted to live.

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They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

These are the people Venat trusted and expected to make the ultimate sacrifice, so yes I would expect them to do so. Midgardsormr did.

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A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It doesn't make sense because Hydaelyn is an incredibly powerful primal and supposedly she did nothing because that was simply not the nature of Ancient primals.

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Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark. It’s stressed multiple times that the power of enervation was what allowed Hydaelyn to succeed. Zodiark was another level of strength, at his height.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Who cares if they panic. The Final Days isn't predicated upon their panic.

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It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

There are countless solutions on this front. The first and most obvious - Hermes isn't even necessary because all the information that he brought to the table was already revealed to Venat in Elpis. Another, trick him to get his cooperation. Another, tell the Convocation before Hermes even joined. Way more besides.

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It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise. Tricking an incredibly intelligent man with the ability to see if you’re lying seems unwise. And telling before he joins just potentially means the Fonal Days aren’t halted at all.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

A side note, since the Ancients are living lie detectors now, is it any wonder why the Convocation rejected Venat's objections? She was lying to them.

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They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying. Hermes was withholding information on Meteion when he meets with Hythlo and Emet. Did they notice? Nope. Because that’s not a lie.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

They wanted to live under very specific conditions, but when faced with oblivion would they? When they see that every other civilization known eventually died off, and sometimes because they wanted to, would they?

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If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice. But moreover when faced with that revelation Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, and Venat don't suddenly go mad and decide that life is meaningless, they were surprised but far from shocked into utter despair.

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A handful of close confidants is not enough to simultaneously restrain Zodiark, find Meteion, and end the song of oblivion. It took millennia of planning, resources and effort to even just get there.

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Maybe you should read back? This part of the conversation was about Venat pulling a Midgardsormr and choosing to leave rather than impose her will on the rest of the Ancients.

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Shes no where near as powerful fans Zodiark.

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Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't. As I said, this is not very good writing.

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It quite literally is though. Panic, despair, hopelessness we’re the emotions that turned people and magicks into blasphemies.

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Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes. Secondly no, it wasn't panic that incited the creation of terminus beasts, it was a massive deluge of Dynamis energy from Meteion hijacking their magics. If Meteion's energy wasn't in the process of saturating an area, panic would do nothing - And as we see and are told towards the end of Elpis, Meteion was busy flying off to the edge of the universe to gather power. Venat could have told everyone about the situation immediately after Ktisis, and because Meteion wasn't yet blasting the world everyone could panic and nothing would happen.

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly. These are people that formed an orderly queue to sacrifice their own lives on the eve of the world's final doom.

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It’s stated multiple times that Hermes is a necessary part of halting the Final Days, not for the things that happened at Elpis, but for his knowledge and expertise.

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Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat. She already knew the aetherial currents would need to be stimulated to shield the planet from Dynamis, if she had gone to the Convocation immediately they could have even done it before 90% of the planet was wiped out. As a reminder Venat literally allowed every other civilization and city other than Amaurot on the planet to be destroyed while the Convocation was racing to figure out what the problem was, when she already knew the problem and what had to be done.

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They never once accuse her of lying, nor would they if they knew her intent. Was she withholding information, sure. But that’s not lying.

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All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie. But whereas Meteion was just Hermes' side project that they were hardly interested in, Venat would be trying to convince them why they should allow their friends and families to remain trapped in Zodiark. These are two very different situations.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The other thing I think about that does upset me is that answer we got about why Hydaelyn (now passed off as) embellished the Heavensward story of her and Zodiark. Okay it was to help rile us up. Keep in mind however, how she told the story. She basically asked Minfillia to become her spokesperson. I don't even like Minfillia, but that's messed up.

So basically you asked someone to DIE and become your mouthpiece so you can lie to our WoL....WAT?!?!

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Honestly I just take this as the devs still not really knowing were to go with both of them (Zodiark and Hydealyn). It is unfortunate but you could (imo) see the same with the WoDs from the First. I wonder if they would have made them so crazy (especially the bard) if they had known what role they will play in the future.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Re: The effects of the sundering on the Ancients

Even Emet's retelling of events in ShB are somewhat contradictory, and perhaps that can be explained by them not wanting to create a new model to act as what Ryne would've been turned into, which we know wouldn't have been an exact copy as depicted. As I recall, both Emet and Elidibus refer to the Ancients post-sundering as being "malformed creatures" and, according to Varis (who obviously would've gotten his info from the unsundered), the sundering is what caused the different races to come into existence.

https://i.imgur.com/4abHqBS.jpg

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I mean malformed creatures could very well just be them talking about their souls. After all Emet did not even count us as alive just because we were not whole.

Varis talk could have been after a cycle of reincarnations. That bascially thanks to the sundering (and thus later dieing) the new races came forth.

Its a bit annoying that we dont really know what happened after the sundering but maybe even the devs thought it better to leave that a mystery. Or we will know more about this in the 24 man raid.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

If that was really their choice they deserve the freedom to make that choice…

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On the first point, I actually am very sympathetic to that argument. The second I completely disagree with. Emet fell into a despair that led him to committing horrific acts of evil and then inviting the WoL to kill him. Hythlo was not conscious due to Zodiarks imprisonment and Venat is the one who made the initial judgement that they couldn’t handle it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Maybe you should read back?.

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And my argument is that not only is this a worthless move as unlike Midgard there’s no planet protected from Meteion waiting to be found, the actual resources needed to travel between planets required thousands of years to gather and develop and there’s no reason to believe the group she could gather together could accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Ah yes, so Zodiark is just arbitrarily at the power threshold needed to give a vague "tug" while Hydaelyn isn't...

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Hydaelyns summoners sacrificed themselves to a man, with Venat at the heart, Zodiarks summoners also included those who would still live, as well as being immensely more powerful, thus does one leave some tempered and the other doesn’t. There’s no bad writing with this despite what you may be believe.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Firstly, the Ancients did not turn into Blasphemes…

And frankly, even the idea they would panic is silly…

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My point is that if the Ancients wished to defeat Meteion they would need to face her in her Dynamis filled nest, and they already showed that they were unprepared for the despair they would inevitably face there, while being surrounded by Dynamis. They wouldn’t be able to as they were.

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Again, all the information they needed had already been revealed to Venat...

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Right, because the magicks we’ve seen in 14 are so easy to cast that they don’t require more than a passing understanding of their effects to mimic. Not to mention everything else potentially left unmentioned that could’ve come up in Zodiarks creation. I mean we didn’t even know about the Aether currents until the Watcher mentioned them.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

All anybody would need to do is ask her "why" or ask what she knows and she would be in the middle of a lie...

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Either the Ancients are capable of knowing when someone is lying or they’re not. If they are, then she must not of lied. If she did, then we have to take a lot of what we know of the echo and the Ancients and pitch it.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And they immediately went back on that sacrifice by offering innocent life and prayed to a god they created to make the world a “paradise.”

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There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world. With the original sacrifices restored and the world healed, why would paradise have been a bad thing? Zodiark was more than powerful enough to forestall the end indefinitely, and the world during that age had more than enough aether to sustain him without any harm being done.

Venat, on the other hand, consigned her own people to what is essentially oblivion because of her own lack of hope. They never had a choice. Their flame was snuffed out needlessly, as it is very likely they would've found a solution to the Meteion problem in time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world.

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Except that it goes against the entire mission statement of the Ancients in being 'the stewards of the star'. With that act, regardless of how independent that life truly is, they have gone from living for the planet to demanding the planet make sacrifices solely for them.

And as for the life itself... well, we've been to Elpis now. That doesn't tell us what specifically was being sacrificed, but it does give us an idea of what was out there to put to the blade. And... well, the answer isn't short. Birds, fish, giant butterflies, drakes, the Lupin. Familiars that are apparently indistinguishable from ourselves. The Ancient world wasn't exactly short on biodiversity. So given that, what do we know about what was planned to be sacrificed? Well, we know it was new, and we know it was notable enough to pick out--so it was probably something rather more exceptional than, say, a new species of cabbage. And, of course, we know that it was objectionable enough to force the hand of Hydaelyn.

I'm not going to say I know what they had their sights on. But I'm willing to bet that it was something truly special. And knowing the setting we're talking about, where we've befriended things like auspices and Bismarck, I would say that 'sapience' is the minimum.


EDIT: Also, I assume you put stock in Emet-Selch's words, and he himself says they wouldn't have found a solution to the End of Days. And he says that with the mother of all hindsight, freed from tempering, his blocked memories, and even the loneliness of his post-Sundering existence. If there was anyone in the universe that could say with authority that the Ancients could not have solved this problem, surely it's him, right?

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

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It's a little wonky that we don't exactly know if the life that sprung up after Zodiark was by Zodiark, or just... well, after Zodiark. Zodiark's presence does actually impact the biosphere (the Fisher Studium questline is explicitly about the fact that killing Zodiark messed with aether currents and how that screwed with marine life), so it could go either way.

But... aren't both angles reflecting pretty badly on the Ancients? If it's from the planet, again, they're going back on their whole mission statement and demanding tribute from the planet they're supposed to be nurturing. If it's from Zodiark, then they're going against Zodiark's plan. They asked him to fix the planet; he did, and then he made new life. Who are they to take this new life that he made and say 'we don't want this; eat it and give us back Hythlodaeus'? maybe Zodiark has a plan, and they're screwing it up.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There is zero evidence that the new life created by Zodiark was sapient. This being the case, there is nothing demonstrably wrong with sacrificing it to bring back the many friends and loved ones that gave up their lives to save the world. With the original sacrifices restored and the world healed, why would paradise have been a bad thing? Zodiark was more than powerful enough to forestall the end indefinitely, and the world during that age had more than enough aether to sustain him without any harm being done.

Venat, on the other hand, consigned her own people to what is essentially oblivion because of her own lack of hope. They never had a choice. Their flame was snuffed out needlessly, as it is very likely they would've found a solution to the Meteion problem in time.

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We know that the new life had to have souls equal in value to the sum of the sacrificed Ancients, otherwise the exchange wouldn’t be equal and Zodiark would be weakened. So they’re sacrificing innocent souls all the same

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

On the first point, I actually am very sympathetic to that argument. The second I completely disagree with. Emet fell into a despair that led him to committing horrific acts of evil and then inviting the WoL to kill him. Hythlo was not conscious due to Zodiarks imprisonment and Venat is the one who made the initial judgement that they couldn’t handle it.

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I was referring to when they found out about the universe in Elpis. None of the three fell into shock or despair from that.

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And my argument is that not only is this a worthless move as unlike Midgard there’s no planet protected from Meteion waiting to be found, the actual resources needed to travel between planets required thousands of years to gather and develop and there’s no reason to believe the group she could gather together could accomplish this.

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Clearly Venat thought it was possible given she planned and prepared for that very eventuality. Is there some particular reason she couldn't have simply done that instead of killing everyone else and forcing them to adhere to her ideals?

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Hydaelyns summoners sacrificed themselves to a man, with Venat at the heart, Zodiarks summoners also included those who would still live, as well as being immensely more powerful, thus does one leave some tempered and the other doesn’t. There’s no bad writing with this despite what you may be believe.

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Your argument is that all of her summoners had to die to give Hydaelyn a chance despite her specifically being designed with a power that hard-countered Zodiark, but despite being an Ancient concept empowered by their souls she was also conveniently not powerful enough to cause this vague "tug". This is something like paint by numbers writing here, convolution for the purposes of meeting an end point.

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My point is that if the Ancients wished to defeat Meteion they would need to face her in her Dynamis filled nest, and they already showed that they were unprepared for the despair they would inevitably face there, while being surrounded by Dynamis. They wouldn’t be able to as they were.

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99.99999% of modern humanity would also stand absolutely no chance doing that same thing. A bunch of panicky civilians aren't heroes, that's true regardless of the era.

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Right, because the magicks we’ve seen in 14 are so easy to cast that they don’t require more than a passing understanding of their effects to mimic. Not to mention everything else potentially left unmentioned that could’ve come up in Zodiarks creation.

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Venat knew the solution. No amount of hming and haing and imagining nonexistent barriers will do away with the fact that she could have told them about the currents immediately and saved millions of lives.

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If they are, then she must not of lied.

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Or, as I postulated before, she did and the distrust this bred led them to ignore her.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

demanding tribute from the planet they're supposed to be nurturing.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

We know that the new life had to have souls equal in value to the sum of the sacrificed Ancients, otherwise the exchange wouldn’t be equal and Zodiark would be weakened. So they’re sacrificing innocent souls all the same

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We all do that on a daily basis. Why, given life, is the Dodo meant to die, helpless in my stir-fry?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

We all do that on a daily basis. Why, given life, is the Dodo meant to die, helpless in my stir-fry?

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Surely you can see that there is a difference between livestock/wild animals, and entire civilizations and cultures full of sentient beings with hopes and dreams. (I mean, the ascians don't see the difference, but that's why they're wrong. When Emet-Selch tells a room full of people that he doesn't consider them to be sentient beings, we're not meant to think 'oh well i guess he has a point. i guess all my friends are not actually people')

And we know that the ascians were not just going around killing non-sapient animals, since every rejoining represents an entire world full of culture and civilizations being wiped out - not to mention all the people on the source who die as result of the calamities. They did it seven times, and intended to do it more.

Besides, the ancients' standard for what counts as "sapient" life was pretty arbitrary. It had nothing to do with any actual demonstration of sapience, but more to do with having sufficiently dense aether. If your aether is dense enough, you're a person with a soul according to them. If it's not dense, then are you really a person at all? It doesn't matter if you demonstrate all the other signs of personhood and are able to communicate as a sentient being. It's an elitist and completely arbitrary standard that elevates the lives of the ancients over everyone else.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Surely you can see that there is a difference between livestock/wild animals, and entire civilizations and cultures full of sentient beings with hopes and dreams.

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Yes. The issue is that for the third sacrifice it was never established that any sapient beings would be sacrificed. The topic isn't about the conflict of the seven calamities, it's about the third sacrifice pre-sundering. In that situation, we've never been told that the life to be sacrificed was anything more than plants and animals, nor if they would have had souls. And if they did, again, clearly being sundered did not give anybody a deeper respect for life given everyone is happy to breed, hunt, kill and consume potentially-soulful beings without a second thought, often not even for the purposes of survival, but rather for those of greed.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yes. The issue is that for the third sacrifice it was never established that any sapient beings would be sacrificed. The topic isn't about the conflict of the seven calamities, it's about the third sacrifice pre-sundering. In that situation, we've never been told that the life to be sacrificed was anything more than plants and animals, nor if they would have had souls. And if they did, again, clearly being sundered did not give anybody a deeper respect for life given everyone is happy to breed, hunt, kill and consume potentially-soulful beings without a second thought, often not even for the purposes of survival, but rather for those of greed.

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But isn't sacrificing all that life a form of greed and selfishness as well? "You're not real life because I don't see you as such, so now I'm going to end your existence to bring back somebody I see as real life because I can't come to terms with their death."

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Surely you can see that there is a difference between livestock/wild animals, and entire civilizations and cultures full of sentient beings with hopes and dreams. (I mean, the ascians don't see the difference, but that's why they're wrong. When Emet-Selch tells a room full of people that he doesn't consider them to be sentient beings, we're not meant to think 'oh well i guess he has a point. i guess all my friends are not actually people')

And we know that the ascians were not just going around killing non-sapient animals, since every rejoining represents an entire world full of culture and civilizations being wiped out - not to mention all the people on the source who die as result of the calamities. They did it seven times, and intended to do it more.

Besides, the ancients' standard for what counts as "sapient" life was pretty arbitrary. It had nothing to do with any actual demonstration of sapience, but more to do with having sufficiently dense aether. If your aether is dense enough, you're a person with a soul according to them. If it's not dense, then are you really a person at all? It doesn't matter if you demonstrate all the other signs of personhood and are able to communicate as a sentient being. It's an elitist and completely arbitrary standard that elevates the lives of the ancients over everyone else.

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Its funny because even Emet doesn't really believe that either. If you talk to Y'shtola right near the end of Ultima Thule (Annoyingly I can't remember which quest specifically) she mentions that the fact that all the Ancients in Elpis had no trouble believing you were just a weird Familiar and not really a person, but the shades in Emet's recreation of Amaurot refer to the Scions as children and treat them as such says a lot about what he thinks subconsciously.

Young and Naive? Oh sure, but he already saw the Sundered as people no matter what he claimed.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But isn't sacrificing all that life a form of greed and selfishness as well? "You're not real life because I don't see you as such, so now I'm going to end your existence to bring back somebody I see as real life because I can't come to terms with their death."

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Maybe, but as I said it's fundamentally no different from what we do all the time. For example from Hermes' sociopathically empathetic perspective killing beasts on Elpis was horrifying, but from WoL's perspective it's something they'd do any day for 20 gil.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yes. The issue is that for the third sacrifice it was never established that any sapient beings would be sacrificed. The topic isn't about the conflict of the seven calamities, it's about the third sacrifice pre-sundering. In that situation, we've never been told that the life to be sacrificed was anything more than plants and animals, nor if they would have had souls. And if they did, again, clearly being sundered did not give anybody a deeper respect for life given everyone is happy to breed, hunt, kill and consume potentially-soulful beings without a second thought, often not even for the purposes of survival, but rather for those of greed.

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Given that the first two sacrifices involved the ancients throwing thier own, obviously sapient selves into the zodiark sacrifice pit, it stands to reason that a third, equivalent sacrifice would also involve sapient life. If you could just sacrifice dodos and fish to satisfy zodiark's need for sacrifice, why would the ancients have bothered with sacrificing themselves?

Also, themetically it would be kind of silly. "First we sacrificed half our population - then the other half that was left after that, and then... we were going to sacrifice every single chicken on the planet." C'mon.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

If you could just sacrifice dodos and fish to satisfy zodiark's need for sacrifice, why would the ancients have bothered with sacrificing themselves?

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Because they were all dead and the world was a ruined wasteland by then.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Because they were all dead and the world was a ruined wasteland by then.

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Was it? It's my understanding that the blasphemies were something that affected sapient beings, who have the capacity to despair. And they'e not animals, they don't hunt or eat. They only want to spread further pain and suffering. The rest of the biosphere, animals that have no capacity to feel that kind of existential dread, really don't seem to be affected at all. But I could be wrong.

Besides, I think that misses the point. Zodiark isn't an engine you can just throw biomass at until it does what you want. The ancients were sacrificing themselves to zodiark in a religious manner, because "sacrifice" implies giving up something of value. In the case of the ancients, the lives of their beloved brethren, and the chance to ever return to the aetherial sea and be reborn to the star. Things highly valued in their culture. It's a sacrifice because the loss was keenly felt by everyone involved.

But a bunch of non-sapient animals? To the ancients - able to create anything, who wanted for nothing? How would it be a meaningful sacrifice at all to round up a bunch of animals and kill them for zodiark? It would be effortless, and they would be able to recreate everything they "sacrificed" easily. It's not really a sacrifice at all, it's more like a biomass delivery.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Was it?

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Yes, all life and the Lifestream itself was being killed. This isn't exactly consistent with what we see in Endwalker, but it was their situation then. The devastation was probably exacerbated as well due to the Ancient's creation magicks being hijacked, creating things like endless rains of fire and tidal waves engulfing the land. Regardless, by the end we're told the planet was completely ravaged and all but lifeless, which is what led to the second sacrifice to restore it and restart the Lifestream.

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Besides, I think that misses the point. Zodiark isn't an engine you can just throw biomass at until it does what you want.

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That is in fact exactly what Zodiark is. He needed massive amounts of aether to do the massive things they asked of him, and the Ancients were the biggest (and at that time only) reservoirs of aether around. This metaphysical, religious aspect you describe, where they needed to give up something intangible or spiritually important, is not part of the equation. It's very much true that they revered Zodiark given he was their only hope, but where you got the rest of this idea I have no clue.

The argument about 'but what if they were just trying to sacrifice a bunch of chickens to Zodiark, you don't know' honestly kind of misses the real point of the whole thing. The problem with the third sacrifice wasn't necessarily what they were killing for it (although again, the story doesn't play if it's not something big), but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort. The world is safe, peaceful and functioning again, and yet that is not enough. It's even going against the wishes of those sacrificed; remember that we heard from those souls in Mare Lamentorum, and they are still completely okay with their own sacrifices. The third sacrifice is for nobody's benefit but the surviving Ancients, as well as the point where the notion they might ever be satisfied is gone.

To a degree, you could say that the moment the third sacrifice was hatched was the point where the Convocation became the Ascians. The point where all reason beyond a selfish desire to want their perfect past back is gone; the point where Emet-Selch's stated view of 'I don't see you as people, so it's not murder' became their accepted view (and yes, I know that after a point he didn't 'really' believe that, but there was undeniably a point where it was true).

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Originally Posted by Veloran

This metaphysical, religious aspect you describe, where they needed to give up something intangible or spiritually important, is not part of the equation. It's very much true that they revered Zodiark given he was their only hope, but where you got the rest of this idea I have no clue.

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I got it from the themes and motifs of the story being told, and the fact that the ancients created Zodiark the god who demands sacrifice to restore the world. Not Zodiark the aether-conversion engine that needs fuel to operate. Perhaps in some strictly literal sense, those two are the same. But they have a completely different thematic vibe. Basically, the story just starts falling apart on a metaphysical level if you postulate that you could run Zodiark on sacrificed chickens.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The argument about 'but what if they were just trying to sacrifice a bunch of chickens to Zodiark, you don't know' honestly kind of misses the real point of the whole thing. The problem with the third sacrifice wasn't necessarily what they were killing for it (although again, the story doesn't play if it's not something big), but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort. The world is safe, peaceful and functioning again, and yet that is not enough. It's even going against the wishes of those sacrificed; remember that we heard from those souls in Mare Lamentorum, and they are still completely okay with their own sacrifices. The third sacrifice is for nobody's benefit but the surviving Ancients, as well as the point where the notion they might ever be satisfied is gone.

To a degree, you could say that the moment the third sacrifice was hatched was the point where the Convocation became the Ascians. The point where all reason beyond a selfish desire to want their perfect past back is gone; the point where Emet-Selch's stated view of 'I don't see you as people, so it's not murder' became their accepted view (and yes, I know that after a point he didn't 'really' believe that, but there was undeniably a point where it was true).

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Co-signing on this especially. Regardless of what was being sacrificed, the intentions of the third sacrifice were selfish in nature.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

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Isnt that the whole problem that Hermes had with his people? That they would just destroy anything that doesnt fit their view of perfection which includes beings that are able to feel emotions and have a soul? We too had a soul yet we were seen as nothing more than a familiar. Even Emet and Hythlo talk about us as an "it" when they met us. If we did not have Azem souls they probably would not have cared much about us anyway.

We dont know what they intended to sacrifice. But the new races had to come from somehwere and so its not that farfetched that the new lives include these too. Anyway that decision alone brought Elidibus out which shows that it was not so easy between the two factions. Also we do have to remember that these once were people who were fine with dieing. Yet suddenly they could not accept the sacrifices? Could not go on living on the already rebuilt planet? They wanted to return to paradise. If you start with sacrificies beyond the pure survival then who knows how far that would go.

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Also if they only needed common animals to sacrifice (even without a soul) then why would they need to sacrifice life at all? Just gather up aether over time with everyone giving a bit of their own and exchange that for each soul. They have the time. They would not need to have every soul back right away. Just do it slowly. There aether exchange done without a single death life. Yet that seemingly never was part of the plan or done.

We have to remember that the amount of aether a Ancient had was huuuuge. How much life with a soul on their own would be needed to just get one soul back? And what would that do with Zodiark? We see with Fandaniel that the one in charge is bascially controlling him. Of course that could be because Elidibus was not part of it anymore but at that time were they intended for the third round he was already out of the primal. I doubt Zodiark would have been left in their controll if it was fed with countless of souls that are absolutely angry and hateful at being sacrificied. Just look what one such soul did with the phoenix. Imagine that now in thousand or more souls. With that act they might have already destroyed their planet again because Zodiark would then turn on them.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Isnt that the whole problem that Hermes had with his people? That they would just destroy anything that doesnt fit their view of perfection which includes beings that are able to feel emotions and have a soul? We too had a soul yet we were seen as nothing more than a familiar. Even Emet and Hythlo talk about us as an "it" when they met us. If we did not have Azem souls they probably would not have cared much about us anyway.

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Yeah, even if the ancients said that they were sacrificing non-sapient life to Zodiark for the third sacrifice, I don't think I trust Emet-"I don't really view you as people"-Selch and the rest of the ancients to be making that determination objectively. (Whether or not Emet actually believed those words personally is besides the point - he probably doesn't. It is the orthodox position for the ancient society.)

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I got it from the themes and motifs of the story being told, and the fact that the ancients created Zodiark the god who demands sacrifice to restore the world. Not Zodiark the aether-conversion engine that needs fuel to operate. l

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Don’t we see this exact thing with Hydaelyn though? If i’m not mistaken she functions like any other primal because in Heavensward we have to feed her crystals to talk to her. Why would Zodiark be any different.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I was referring to when they found out about the universe in Elpis. None of the three fell into shock or despair from that.

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Two of those there would go on a multi millennia campaign to do what they thought was right for humanity and the third sacrificed themselves to create a god. Hell, all three agreed Venat was right in the end. Maybe they aren’t the best example of what you’re trying to argue.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Clearly Venat thought it was possible given she planned and prepared for that very eventuality. Is there some particular reason she couldn't have simply done that instead of killing everyone else and forcing them to adhere to her ideals?

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Of course she thought it possible, my point however is that’s not a solution the way silencing the song of oblivion is and would only lead to the destruction of Etheirys and all life.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Your argument is that all of her summoners had to die to give Hydaelyn a chance despite her specifically being designed with a power that hard-countered Zodiark, but despite being an Ancient concept empowered by their souls she was also conveniently not powerful enough to cause this vague "tug"...

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Yes, my argument is she is specifically made to restrain Zodiark and Her powers are limited due to the fact that 2/3 of the world did not sacrifice themselves to power Her. If you can’t recognize there may be effects unique to that case then perhaps this discussion will be fruitless.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

99.99999% of modern humanity would also stand absolutely no chance doing that same thing. A bunch of panicky civilians aren't heroes, that's true regardless of the era.

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I choose to believe 99% of people wouldn’t sacrifice innocent lives.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Venat knew the solution...

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Then don’t take my word for it. Here’s Venat.

https://i.imgur.com/y1EyFm9.jpg

It’s clear that a basic understanding of a concept shouldn’t be enough for one to base their hopes on. Venat recognizes the need for Hermes expertise, and recognizes her own limitations. What reason would she have to not fairly judge the situation, if it would only be to her benefit?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Or, as I postulated before, she did and the distrust this bred led them to ignore her.

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And then you must concede you have 0 evidence of this.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

We all do that on a daily basis. Why, given life, is the Dodo meant to die, helpless in my stir-fry?

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I wonder why they didn’t just breed a bunch of chickens and sacrifice them to Zodiark then. I mean it’s not like Emet has shown a willingness to sacrifice innocent sapient life in pursuit of his goals. Right?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Don’t we see this exact thing with Hydaelyn though? If i’m not mistaken she functions like any other primal because in Heavensward we have to feed her crystals to talk to her. Why would Zodiark be any different.

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It's been a while, but I don't think so? My recollection is that we traveled to the aetherial sea via the antitower, and then spoke to Minfilia as the Oracle by using the little crystal macguffins we got during ARR. It never seemed like the crystals were an energy source for that - more like a catalyst to make communication possible.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It's been a while, but I don't think so? My recollection is that we traveled to the aetherial sea via the antitower, and then spoke to Minfilia as the Oracle by using the little crystal macguffins we got during ARR. It never seemed like the crystals were an energy source for that - more like a catalyst to make communication possible.

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I haven’t seen it in awhile but i thought that was implied to be our first real sign she was a primal. We use the crystals and i think they even just disappear after and she says her energy is waning and we have no more to give her.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I haven’t seen it in awhile but i thought that was implied to be our first real sign she was a primal. We use the crystals and i think they even just disappear after and she says her energy is waning and we have no more to give her.

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We "invoked the power of our crystal" when the Warriors of Darkness brought theirs out, trying to escape, which was all a part of Urianger's plan, somehow. The combination of all the crystals brought us to a meeting with her and after which she sucked the crystals dry for more power. But the power in the crystals was already her own power that she had given to the crystals to begin with. It wasn't the same as other primals, who we see being summoned with stashes of regular, naturally-made crystals.

I don't even know if the writers had planned for Zodiark and Hydaelyn to be primals that early. They said during fan fest once that they didn't do the Warriors of Darkness arc expecting us to go to the First, either. A lot of the game's story feels like they had a vague idea of how it was going to go, and made up how we were going to get there and what happens along the way.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

We "invoked the power of our crystal" when the Warriors of Darkness brought theirs out, trying to escape, which was all a part of Urianger's plan, somehow. The combination of all the crystals brought us to a meeting with her and after which she sucked the crystals dry for more power. But the power in the crystals was already her own power that she had given to the crystals to begin with. It wasn't the same as other primals, who we see being summoned with stashes of regular, naturally-made crystals.

I don't even know if the writers had planned for Zodiark and Hydaelyn to be primals that early. They said during fan fest once that they didn't do the Warriors of Darkness arc expecting us to go to the First, either. A lot of the game's story feels like they had a vague idea of how it was going to go, and made up how we were going to get there and what happens along the way.

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It seemed like the same general concept, the crystals were aether and we were giving them to her to feed on them. Irregardless though i just failed to see where it was implied Zodiark was “demanding sacrifices.”I thought we left the Zodiark evul blood god train a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The problem with the third sacrifice wasn't necessarily what they were killing for it (although again, the story doesn't play if it's not something big), but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort.

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I'm not sure why people are continuously trying paint the image that the Ancients as a whole were of the mind that this 3rd sacrifice was the way to go, they were not. Venat had a faction of followers who believed in her cause, after all, and as we heard from Elidibus, when numerous Ancients made their disagreements known about this plan, he very willingly disconnected himself from Zodiark for the purposes of reconciliation with Venat and her followers. It is blatantly untrue to say that the Ancients were completely unwilling to compromise or seek alternatives. To argue this is the moment the Convocation became the 'Ascians,' and the point of no return isn't right to me, because still, here we have the very heart of Zodiark himself sensing the conflict and wanting to mediate things. We have no reason to believe this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, all we have is a metaphorical cutscene skewed in a very specific point of view. Venat's.

Also, Emet-selch's view of Sundered life is not just born of out of some inherent Ancient sentiment either. We heard from the man himself that he measured the worth of modern people for thousands of years, and concluded they were simply too stupid, violent and frail to care for the star. He's not some prejudiced idiot with no deeper understanding of the world, he's lived more mortal lives than any mortal. He has been rendered bitter by eons of watching people bump into eachother and die, and even then, we know that these were not his complete feelings, but something he was using to remain true to his convictions. The idea that the Ancients don't care in the slightest for lesser life is directly contradicted by the numerous Elpis sidequests, as well as their scholarly understanding that most of their arcane constructs do not have a soul, and thus cannot emulate life. When they can perceive a soul in something, it is a completely different matter entirely, such was the case for the 'immortal bird' in the novella, or the WoL as 'Azem's familiar.' Even if this deduction to determine a life's worth is incorrect, as is attempted to convey with Hermes, this is not then cause to decide the entire world is cruel. At worst they simply don't realize.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

I'm not sure why people are continuously trying paint the image that the Ancients as a whole were of the mind that this 3rd sacrifice was the way to go, they were not. Venat had a faction of followers who believed in her cause, after all, and as we heard from Elidibus, when numerous Ancients made their disagreements known about this plan, he very willingly disconnected himself from Zodiark for the purposes of reconciliation with Venat and her followers. It is blatantly untrue to say that the Ancients were completely unwilling to compromise or seek alternatives. To argue this is the moment the Convocation became the 'Ascians,' and the point of no return isn't right to me, because still, here we have the very heart of Zodiark himself sensing the conflict and wanting to mediate things. We have no reason to believe this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, all we have is a metaphorical cutscene skewed in a very specific point of view. Venat's.

Also, Emet-selch's view of Sundered life is not just born of out of some inherent Ancient sentiment either. We heard from the man himself that he measured the worth of modern people for thousands of years, and concluded they were simply too stupid, violent and frail to care for the star. He's not some prejudiced idiot with no deeper understanding of the world, he's lived more mortal lives than any mortal. He has been rendered bitter by eons of watching people bump into eachother and die, and even then, we know that these were not his complete feelings, but something he was using to remain true to his convictions. The idea that the Ancients don't care in the slightest for lesser life is directly contradicted by the numerous Elpis sidequests, as well as their scholarly understanding that most of their arcane constructs do not have a soul, and thus cannot emulate life. When they can perceive a soul in something, it is a completely different matter entirely, such was the case for the 'immortal bird' in the novella, or the WoL as 'Azem's familiar.' Even if this deduction to determine a life's worth is incorrect, as is attempted to convey with Hermes, this is not then cause to decide the entire world is cruel. At worst they simply don't realize.

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Very well said.

I had no idea so many FFXIV players were vegan! Usually this level of judgment isn't something I see outside of vegan communities, so it's interesting to see its prevalence within the FFXIV fandom.

Re: Zodiark

Well, we don't know what life he created, it's all speculation. We do know that the Ancients couldn't create souls, so it'd be reasonable to conclude that neither could Zodiark. Also, aether is aether, I'm not sure it matters where it's sourced.

I found a translation from Japanese of Hythlodaeus' dialog in ShB. It doesn't differ much from the English, but it says: "The earth was dead, the water polluted, and the very wind still. Thus did a further half of the remaining people offer up their lives to Zodiark, that he might cleanse the planet and seed new life on it." This implies that 1) there wasn't enough left living or uncorrupted on the planet to use for aether other than the Ancients themselves and 2) that the 'seeded' new life wasn't fully formed to have enough to aether to use, hence the plan to wait until it had 'flourished'.

Given that context, sacrificing a bunch of saplings wouldn't have been enough aether. Trees that had grown into great oaks would've yielded much more. Also, I don't think people are using "sapient" correctly. None of the new life would've existed long enough to have developed sapience. I think you mean sentient. Regardless, this also brings the timeline into question. Granted, I can only apply real world growth cycles, but even if we assume they were going to sacrifice sentient creatures most of those would've needed about a year to fully develop. I'm speaking specifically of animals here, to be clear. Any humanoids would've required much longer.

Additionally, Elidibus had exited Zodiark to help mediate the conflict within their society and surely they would not have engaged in a third sacrifice while Zodiark lacked his heart, if they had even reached that point since it sounds like it was still under some measure of debate. So, if we assume that Venat had always planned to sunder the star, then there are some significant time gaps and circumstances that don't make sense. You can't say it was to get organized either, the Anyder dialog indicates they had been stalling. I'm left to conclude that Venat actually did believe the Ancients capable of handling Meteion, but perhaps because not enough of them joined her side as quickly as she wanted she decided to take matters into her own hands. It still blows a hole through the dynamis defense since if their only salvation was ever going to be the sundering, then there would've been no reason for her to bother with outreach to her people or to put it off past Zodiark restoring the world.

The ancients were not able to create souls. But I think that if a soul flowed from the aetherial sea into one of thier creations, it would have a soul. Through a process not well understood, that the ancients had no control over. If we're going to assume that zodiark was limited in the same way the ancients were, then he would be creating ensouled life whether he wanted to or not.

Also I have no idea why you would assume real world growth timescales. We saw in the Eden storyline that aetherical acts of reseeding a dead world can happen pretty damn fast - and surely Zodiark would have a lot more aether to work with than Eden did.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort.

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If this was their sin, it's one we perpetuate every single day.

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It's even going against the wishes of those sacrificed; remember that we heard from those souls in Mare Lamentorum, and they are still completely okay with their own sacrifices.

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Did you just forget the part where the souls within Zodiark say, "We must return and be made whole!"?

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I got it from the themes and motifs of the story being told, and the fact that the ancients created Zodiark the god who demands sacrifice to restore the world. Not Zodiark the aether-conversion engine that needs fuel to operate. Perhaps in some strictly literal sense, those two are the same. But they have a completely different thematic vibe. Basically, the story just starts falling apart on a metaphysical level if you postulate that you could run Zodiark on sacrificed chickens.

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Yes, and I'm saying that the story does fall apart on that level.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Two of those there would go on a multi millennia campaign to do what they thought was right for humanity and the third sacrificed themselves to create a god.

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You seem to be confused. Again this part of the conversation isn't about the ethics of the rejoining, it's about the question of the Ancient's ability to handle the idea of a dead universe. When that information is revealed neither Venat, nor Emet, nor Hythlodaeus break down in shock from it. Emet and Hythlodaeus soon got their memories wiped and none of their actions related to that idea, while Venat knew and still didn't break down about it. I'm saying there was a serious lack of evidence that this idea would cause the Ancients to destroy themselves.

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Of course she thought it possible, my point however is that’s not a solution the way silencing the song of oblivion is and would only lead to the destruction of Etheirys and all life.

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Why could she not have left and enacted a plan against Meteion? In fact, why do you consider not defeating Meteion a barrier towards a notion of fleeing, when it was already Venat's plan B (plan A being "never unseal Zodiark and safeguard the world forever") and the idea of going to challenge her was plan C?

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Yes, my argument is she is specifically made to restrain Zodiark and Her powers are limited due to the fact that 2/3 of the world did not sacrifice themselves to power Her. If you can’t recognize there may be effects unique to that case then perhaps this discussion will be fruitless.

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It's obvious that they are not the same, my point is only that a very vague line of distinction is made purely for the purposes of narrative convenience.

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I choose to believe 99% of people wouldn’t sacrifice innocent lives.

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You're wrong. Flat-out. People do so every day without even thinking about it. WoL has done it on countless occasions.

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Then don’t take my word for it. Here’s Venat.

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Venat does not say that they would specifically need Hermes "expertise" for anything. She says "well he's smart, and maybe his intelligence will be useful?" If you actually pay attention to her dialog in this scene, she suggests to WoL that the world may be completely different when you return to your own time, meaning that she is actually intending to do things differently. And yet she also says that the others being mind-wiped may have set the stage for a conjunction leading to the timeline remaining the same, meaning she knows that not telling the others increases the chances that everything goes unchanged and the Ancient's world is destroyed.

Not only is the entire thing a godawful contrivance with little logic behind it, what Venat is talking about with Hermes there is her MO to a T - Withhold knowledge from someone and try to manipulate them into aiding your cause, even when revealing the truth of the situation to them might make them your enemy. To be clear, this is a mistake, and leads to the deaths of billions as the Ancient's world is razed while everyone is scrambling around to figure out the cause of the situation. Keep in mind that she also says that she needs to "prepare their defenses", and yet absolutely nothing comes of this.

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And then you must concede you have 0 evidence of this.

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They didn't buy her arguments regardless. Either way she was predicating them on lies.

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I wonder why they didn’t just breed a bunch of chickens and sacrifice them to Zodiark then.

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That was quite literally their plan with the third sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It's been a while, but I don't think so? My recollection is that we traveled to the aetherial sea via the antitower, and then spoke to Minfilia as the Oracle by using the little crystal macguffins we got during ARR. It never seemed like the crystals were an energy source for that - more like a catalyst to make communication possible.

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The crystals were explicitly used as an energy source, both to bring you to the aetherial sea to meet Minfilia and to take her and the Warriors of Darkness back to the First. Iirc the journal even describes WoL's crystal as having been "spent" afterwards.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

Also, Emet-selch's view of Sundered life is not just born of out of some inherent Ancient sentiment either. We heard from the man himself that he measured the worth of modern people for thousands of years, and concluded they were simply too stupid, violent and frail to care for the star. He's not some prejudiced idiot with no deeper understanding of the world, he's lived more mortal lives than any mortal. He has been rendered bitter by eons of watching people bump into eachother and die, and even then, we know that these were not his complete feelings, but something he was using to remain true to his convictions. The idea that the Ancients don't care in the slightest for lesser life is directly contradicted by the numerous Elpis sidequests, as well as their scholarly understanding that most of their arcane constructs do not have a soul, and thus cannot emulate life. When they can perceive a soul in something, it is a completely different matter entirely, such was the case for the 'immortal bird' in the novella, or the WoL as 'Azem's familiar.' Even if this deduction to determine a life's worth is incorrect, as is attempted to convey with Hermes, this is not then cause to decide the entire world is cruel. At worst they simply don't realize.

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There's something to note here that I think hasn't been recognized very much - Emet-Selch's motives and ideals and Venat's motives and ideals appear to be exactly the same, simply flipped around. Emet believed that the Sundered were morally and physically deficient, selfish, indolent, given to the temptations of power, and both magically and ethically incapable of true fulfillment, and so they must be rejoined. Whereas Venat believed that the Ancients were morally and physically deficient, selfish, indolent, given to the temptations of power, and both magically and ethically incapable of true fulfillment, and so they must be sundered. Many of the arguments that were once applied to the Sundered, that they were inferior beings prone to self-destruction, are now being turned around and used with the Ancients to justify their destruction without a hint of irony.

It's stuff like this that makes me question whether the story was actually some kind of grand 5D meta commentary on the nature of narrative presentation and audience reception, or if everything was just a complete accident and they just unintentionally doubled back on a bunch of ideas they were trying to dispute.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I had no idea so many FFXIV players were vegan! Usually this level of judgment isn't something I see outside of vegan communities, so it's interesting to see its prevalence within the FFXIV fandom.

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And I didnt know that my meal would be able to hold a conversation with me.

We cant prove what life it was. But it is imo quite telling that the end goal of the Ascians was to sacrifice the remaining people of the source after every rejoining was done. Those would have been people with complete souls. People who once might have been Ancient themselves. So I have a hard time seeing how back in the days when they were also already tempered they would not think about "lesser" races as not suitable.

Heck we are seen as nothing but a familiar simply because we have a less dense soul. We talk with them, we clearly show emotions and other than the soul we can basically look like them and yet we are still just familiars. An interesting, cute creation but nothing much more.

I can still quite see that they would sacrifice someone like the WoL (or even Meteion) to get one of their owns back. After all we are just a concept and can be recreated afterwards.

And I really doubt that the third plan would have created such a huge amount of conflict that Elidibus had to leave Zodiark if the plan was to create a chicken farm and sacrifice them to get their people back. Not when seemingly the majority of the Ancients had no problem creating and destroying their concepts even if it had a soul. No for me it makes only sense if they had planned to do it to new life that was seemingly above the normal creations (and who would also have a whole soul unlike us!)

Of course it could also be that some found it to be absolutely horrible to sacrifice the new life that was created by the second sacrifice. After all even Emet was horrified about his future self. After all death was an honor and the sacrificed souls were seemingly quite happy to be the matyr of the star.

Ardbert had a vastly less dense soul than us. Was he any less worthy?

Given that both the source and the first are populated by Roegadyn, Miqo'te, Au Ra - etc. I don't think it is a huge leap in logic to assume that those and others were the races that populated the star pre-sundering. In other words, sentient life, and potential victims for the ancient's sacrifice plan.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Given that both the source and the first are populated by Roegadyn, Miqo'te, Au Ra - etc. I don't think it is a huge leap in logic to assume that those and others were the races that populated the star pre-sundering. In other words, sentient life, and potential victims for the ancient's sacrifice plan.

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Or it could be that since the sundering split the world, the ancients got split into the seperate races at that point and thus they exist on all worlds. Emet and Hythlo, after they size you up, don't seem to recognize you as like a hrothgar or something just general comments about your stature and that would be extremely strange if they already exist. Because of Azem, they both should be very well traveled and should have seen them somewhere. Even if we chalk it up to the ancients thinking they're superior to everyone else, they should still recognize the races when they see them. Also Varis claims directly that the sundering led to the different races.