Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Awha

I have always been in the camp that standards are subjective and that is what creates this issue in the first place cause we all have different views on the matter.

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I actually think it's the opposite. If there is no objective standard, then there is no issue. If issues arise, it's because people think there is an objective standard, and thus want to say that others are doing it wrong. If you like pineapples on your pizza, I would disagree, but there is no issue because it's subjective.

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I operate on a very binary system.

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I understand and I'm not trying to change you, but I do think that causes more issue than anything else. I think, for many aspects of life, there are degrees to be considered. Some are more important than others.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Oh, don't get me wrong, he was bad. We asked for tank stance multiple times, even said the skill name. His gear was severely outdated for the dungeon, he would never use an AoE and no matter what we tried, he wouldn't say a word to us. Half the time he also just stood there, as if computing his next course of action, instead of running further into the dungeon.

I agree that you usually get results if you simply ask, as is the case 99% of the time, but he was an example of a "so bad you can't believe they exist" player. Need to see it in the entire context of the post; I mentioned it was both rare to encounter this type of guy, and if they truly are hopeless, vote kick existed for a reason- which we promptly used after our tenth time asking.

The story wasn't meant to be some kind of "gotcha" but rather just an example; anecdotal evidence is, after all, not actual evidence.

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That sounds like a bot honestly. I so hate getting stuck in a dungeon with a bot. It hasn't happened to me often but when it goes - GRRRRR.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I actually think it's the opposite. If there is no objective standard, then there is no issue. If issues arise, it's because people think there is an objective standard, and thus want to say that others are doing it wrong. If you like pineapples on your pizza, I would disagree, but there is no issue because it's subjective.

I understand and I'm not trying to change you, but I do think that causes more issue than anything else. I think, for many aspects of life, there are degrees to be considered. Some are more important than others.

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I agree in an ideal situation it should not be an issue, though in practice I have at least from my own experience it is the opposite. The issue stems in my opinion from an emotional and bias ridden response. For example may not be a one to one comparison. I am a life long vegan, in the end it should not matter if I have non vegan friends yet in the eyes of my family it is considered wrong due to their own personal reasoning which is fair but from experience many have a hard time not letting that personal reason be cause for concern through an emotional repose where they try to convert the person instead of just accepting it.

Like with the whole vote kick thing, people will blast you for removing someone because they do not agree with the reason when largely in terms of what SE actually does. The reason as to why the vote happened should be moot all that should matter is the outcome of the vote.

I get the vote kick is a tad murky cause in theory you are forcing your standard onto another person if they are removed but that also creates other issues then in theory should we never remove someone cause generally I do not think people will ever really find agreement unless big brother SE lays down the law, and enforces said law.

Though I do like pineapple pizza, and I respectfully accept your position of not liking a correct form of pizza. Joking aside I hope what I am saying makes sense why I think having subjective standards on paper is cool but I do not people are mature enough to handle them.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Oh, don't get me wrong, he was bad. We asked for tank stance multiple times, even said the skill name. His gear was severely outdated for the dungeon, he would never use an AoE and no matter what we tried, he wouldn't say a word to us. Half the time he also just stood there, as if computing his next course of action, instead of running further into the dungeon.

I agree that you usually get results if you simply ask, as is the case 99% of the time, but he was an example of a "so bad you can't believe they exist" player. Need to see it in the entire context of the post; I mentioned it was both rare to encounter this type of guy, and if they truly are hopeless, vote kick existed for a reason- which we promptly used after our tenth time asking.

The story wasn't meant to be some kind of "gotcha" but rather just an example; anecdotal evidence is, after all, not actual evidence.

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Reasonable, my bad for trailing off from a quoted comment of a quoted comment and losing its context, that's on me. But yes, you are right, it sounds like a choice between vote kick or leave and leaving is just too much of a penalty.

This conversation comes up all the time and it is rarely about not being able to clear something. Usually someone who thinks a lot of themselves had to spend maybe a few minutes longer on their expert roulette because someone wasn't playing quite the same way that the top 1% of savage raiders play. I run roulette every week to cap tomes and I haven't had a run take more than 15 minutes in months, so these claims that mass numbers of players are completely inept is exaggerated. There is also the option of forming parties yourself of people who play to your desired skill level, and if you are unable to find people willing to run content with you then maybe the problem isn't other players as much as you think it is.

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

Be honest, when you told that 44 GLA to put tank stance on, did you say it casually, or did you put together a sterile and unnaturally polite PR statement out of fear of being reported?
Whatever is the answer, I don't think it's controversial at all to say that most people will go for the latter option when they find themselves in that situation.
In my experience people either do that, or outright leave without saying anything and suffer the 30m lock.

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.

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Not really anything more to add to any of the discourse in this thread. It's pretty much all been said. But the quote above probably hit home to me as one of, if not the most, key things that cuts right to the heart of the issue for me.

When I give advice to someone who is visibly and noticeably playing poorly, do I do it in a careful manner? Yes, absolutely. But it's not some kind of "sterile PR speak," and it's not something I have to painfully craft before I "say" it. It's out of genuine interest in helping the other player and, sure, in helping myself too. It's not hard to just be polite and respectful, especially given how rarely the occurrence of truly "poor" players is. Or at least it shouldn't be difficult. If you really feel you are walking on eggshells every time you think of giving advice and feel you have to craft some sort of longwinded PR statement such as to not offend them, then chances are you're not being as helpful as you think you are. And maybe you need to examine what about the messaging you're giving out is coming off as offensive enough to merit a report that a GM wouldn't just be blowing off (assuming one gets filed in the first place).

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Originally Posted by Hikelos

The end result is this oppressive, 24/7 Mask-On atmosphere.

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I just found it quite funny that some would actually considering such an Orwellian 1984-ish interpretation about a video game like this, especially for something like FFXIV where the general atmosphere I tend to find to be quite genial.

Also, just a note: most people who are complaining about "drama" are the ones usually creating those "drama" in the first place. Stop being so overdramatic all the time.

The thought of someone while playing FFXIV is quivering in fear trying to sterilize a message offering advice to another player before they hit send because they fear the overlords are watching and couldn't wait to target them with banhammer is just actually hilarious to me. It's not hard to just be polite while you're offering advice, and I am 100% sure that even if you are reported by some arse when you offer advice nothing would come out off it if your message is respectful. And almost everyone I met in cases where I gave advice when they did something wrong, they received it well, heck most of the times I got comms from suggesting those advices, and this the experience I had after playing probably thousands of DF related content. If you are not an arse yourself or acting like one when you give pointers to others, you have absolutely nothing to fear.

Most people do not like unsolicited advice for two reasons. One because there is almost always inherent criticism in the advice. Even if you don't say, "you're doing something wrong," by saying that they should change their behavior you are telling them that there is something wrong with what they are doing. Two, it often makes the advice-giver sound like they know better. If you haven't done anything to prove or show that you have knowledge of the subject, it can make people feel like some stranger, who they don't know, is telling them what to do. Why should they listen if they don't know if the person has any basis for saying what they say?

That's why it's important to always lead with overwhelming kindness when giving advice and be as non-confrontational as possible if you want others to take your advice. I think, if you just have to give advice because you really think it will help someone else or it will help you complete the run, to first ask people if they want advice. If they don't want your advice, then it's pointless to try to give it anyway because it won't be well received. If you want to force your advice on other people, even if it's clearly not welcome, you should maybe think about why you are trying to give advice in the first place.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Define growing "properly" first.

I actually disagree with the easy mode for quests, but people told me it's irrelevant because they're solo, so whatever.

But anyway, I don't think there is any "big brother death grip" thing going on, just some rules that are actually enforced. People still has the freedom of determining whom they want to play with in this game.

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But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

Things like the Echo and Easy mode totally damage this curve and that affects EVERYONE because this is an MMORPG. If a person cannot pass the combat against Zenos in Stormblood, he should analyze what he is doing, how to move from aoes and see what he is doing wrong, in the same way as in FFX if he cannot pass the combat against Seymour, he analyzes I'm doing wrong and I try again until I learn.

But these modes simply make people turn off their brains, fail at everything, and can continue to progress in the game.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

Things like the Echo and Easy mode totally damage this curve and that affects EVERYONE because this is an MMORPG. If a person cannot pass the combat against Zenos in Stormblood, he should analyze what he is doing, how to move from aoes and see what he is doing wrong, in the same way as in FFX if he cannot pass the combat against Seymour, he analyzes I'm doing wrong and I try again until I learn.

But these modes simply make people turn off their brains, fail at everything, and can continue to progress in the game.

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Those who want to learn will learn, and those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new. With as casual of a game as this is, I would expect a fair number of players to be a bit below average but still able to get things done...which they do most of the time. It's just not always pretty. What it comes down to is personal expectations. Some have theirs set way too high. FF XIV is the wrong game for that, in my opinion. Some MMOs seem to go through a constant identity crisis, but the dev team knows exactly what FF XIV is and they design the game largely around a more relaxed and casual player base. I respect that.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Those who want to learn will learn, and those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new. With as casual of a game as this is, I would expect a fair number of players to be a bit below average but still able to get things done...which they do most of the time. It's just not always pretty. What it comes down to is personal expectations. Some have theirs set way too high. FF XIV is the wrong game for that, in my opinion. Some MMOs seem to go through a constant identity crisis, but the dev team knows exactly what FF XIV is and they design the game largely around a more relaxed and casual player base. I respect that.

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I think the problem comes in when you start to question what is considered casual. I’ve seen people on the daily that don’t even aoe in level 80 dungeons. Or just stand around not casting anything as a healer. While the easy mode situations may not be *insanely* detrimental, it promotes bad play which is already a constant thing with this playerbase. I understand people not wanting to treat casual content like dungeons as serious as a raid or something like that which is 100% fine, but i expect people to know their rotations and to know they need to aoe in dungeons. Unfortunately lately it seems like every single day i queue up for roulettes i get at least one dungeon run with a dps or healer that isn’t aoeing which just ends up wasting everyone’s time, and 9 times out of 10 when i offer advice they return it with hostility. There needs to be SOME kind of change in the game whether it’s them creating some kind of gameplay wall that requires people to understand dungeon fundamentals or what. Unfortunately i don’t see this happening because Yoshi P said he wants to streamline dungeons even more which...i genuinely don’t even know how that’s possible given how easy this expansions dungeons have been.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Those who want to learn will learn, and those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new. With as casual of a game as this is, I would expect a fair number of players to be a bit below average but still able to get things done...which they do most of the time. It's just not always pretty. What it comes down to is personal expectations. Some have theirs set way too high. FF XIV is the wrong game for that, in my opinion. Some MMOs seem to go through a constant identity crisis, but the dev team knows exactly what FF XIV is and they design the game largely around a more relaxed and casual player base. I respect that.

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That's why I not only name the easy mode, I name the Echo in my comment because in Heavensward it was very normal to hear that for certain class missions or certain history missions it was better to die repeatedly to collect Echo and complete the mission.

And precisely what you are telling me is the problem that we are discussing here, in a game where you do not play with anyone, it does not matter the difficulty or if you want to skip the learning curve of the game but we are in an MMORPG where your performance affects the rest of th players and we return to the same thing NOBODY asks you to play with 99 parsers, people are asked a minimum of understanding, understanding that the game teaches you but is easily ignored by factors that I mention. It is the criticism that many of us do with Yoshida for this kind of thing and it is the problem that many people have encountered with this game that not only affects the dungeon facet, it affects others such as PVP.

I honestly want to know where all these bad players are hiding, I've been playing since ARR beta, been subbed and actively playing the whole time, all my stuff is 80, while I don't do savage or such (would rather be stabbed with a rusty spoon) I do instanced contend regularly and I can:
count the number of times I've had to kick someone, on one hand
count the number of truly terrible players I've encountered, with two hands
count the number of truly aggravating players with... well I'd need more than my hands, but it's still a surprisingly low number.
I don't doubt there are players out there who don't want to do their jobs, or just don't want to play, but I don't think adding easy modes or boots did anything to inflate them, you could litterally netflix and deep dungeon and before then fate your way to max with zero brain power and them wonder what all those new button that you never bothered to pay attention to.
While many don't like it, the only answer the game is really willing to provide is simply, PF and create your own "wall" or DF and accept whatever is given to you.

And I put something back that I put several pages back, many people when they enter their roulettes do not see what the rest does because they play with Tunnel Vision and only care about what they do and only realize that something is wrong when there is a wipe. So I think the right thing to do before saying whether or not they had bad experiences is to analyze whether when we play we can see what the rest are doing or not.

It is incredible how many people have tunnelvision when they play MMORPG and in this game many people happen to them and the perfect example of this is Frontline where they do not see what the rest of the teams do.

PD:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tunnel_vision/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tunnel_vision/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...eone_w_tunnel/

I think there's an interesting assumption there. If someone is able to play with "tunnel vision" and therefore doesn't notice "something is wrong" unless there's a wipe, then who's to say that something IS wrong? As long as everyone's having fun, it shouldn't matter if each player meets some kind of arbitrarily defined standard of competence.

Everyone pays to be here, and people have different priorities. That can be frustrating, but the solution to that is always to form your own parties.

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Originally Posted by squidmonarchy

I think there's an interesting assumption there. If someone is able to play with "tunnel vision" and therefore doesn't notice "something is wrong" unless there's a wipe, then who's to say that something IS wrong? As long as everyone's having fun, it shouldn't matter if each player meets some kind of arbitrarily defined standard of competence.

Everyone pays to be here, and people have different priorities. That can be frustrating, but the solution to that is always to form your own parties.

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It's a fair point, if the argument is, "you just didn't notice that something was wrong!" then was there? If we beat the dungeon in a reasonable time with the tank tanking, the healer healer and the dps killing things that at no point did I see anything amiss, was there really a problem worth worrying about? I'm more than capable of noticing what other players are doing, am I constantly analysing my fellow players, gaging their performance and grading them against my standards? No. However, if the Tank is nearly dying or someone is just standing around, mobs are running around free from the tank or things are dying noticeably slow, I'm more than able to notice, it's just very rare for this to happen, again I've run into more people who are obnoxious than I've run into people who are bad.

I wonder if fear of the playerbase finding out just how underperforming they are is an unstated reason why SE refuses to put any performance feedback system in the game? I wonder if they fear the beast that they have themselves made?

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Originally Posted by squidmonarchy

I think there's an interesting assumption there. If someone is able to play with "tunnel vision" and therefore doesn't notice "something is wrong" unless there's a wipe, then who's to say that something IS wrong? As long as everyone's having fun, it shouldn't matter if each player meets some kind of arbitrarily defined standard of competence.

Everyone pays to be here, and people have different priorities. That can be frustrating, but the solution to that is always to form your own parties.

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This problem not only affects people who are not able to see how their teammates play, the problem affects these same people, I return to the Frontline examples, because when people are told where to go repeatedly in the chat people do not does it?

Because these people also ignore chat, they are SO focused on what they do that they ignore everything around them including one of the fundamental pillars of a game with a social aspect like this and when you are failing in communication in an MMORPG is when you are doing something wrong.

Disrespect is not only insulting people, disrespect is ignoring your group chat while your group has to support you like dead weight because you are not able to stop to read what people say to you. Why should they have empathy for people who don't have empathy for their teammates? For this reason, many will continue to use the vote to kick people but do not come to me with victimizing speech about these people because when you are ignoring one of the great aspects of MMOs such as the social aspect, you have the problem, not the people.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I wonder if fear of the playerbase finding out just how underperforming they are is an unstated reason why SE refuses to put any performance feedback system in the game? I wonder if they fear the beast that they have themselves made?

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The reason they won't put parsers in the game is because they don't want people being bullied essentially (paraphrasing but this has been their stance since 2.0) - as has happened in other games that have parsers.

Their compromise was putting Sky, Sea, Land (or whatever the name is) in the game for people to work on those. It's not ideal, but better than nothing. Frankly I would like a personal parser in the game as I'm on console and I'd just like to have that info for myself so I can work on improving. But I don't need to see everyone else's parses. Parsing also isn't even necessary outside of Savage or Ultimates (and even then I'm not sure it's needed then - helpful sure - necessary? Idk).

I am usually playing healer, or tank, and I can usually tell for a fact when each role is 'underperforming' - and it's quite often. I find it hard to believe that people aren't seeing it. It's quite easy to tell when player(s) are either performing adequately or not, from how long it's taking to kill groups of adds, how much damage a tank is taking, how well aggro is managed, interrupts used, aoes , esuna being used, vuln stacks, etc. etc.. Even more so if you regularly play a class and know the regular combos for situations.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I am usually playing healer, or tank, and I can usually tell for a fact when each role is 'underperforming' - and it's quite often. I find it hard to believe that people aren't seeing it. It's quite easy to tell when player(s) are either performing adequately or not, from how long it's taking to kill groups of adds, how much damage a tank is taking, how well aggro is managed, interrupts used, aoes , esuna being used, vuln stacks, etc. etc.. Even more so if you regularly play a class and know the regular combos for situations.

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Yea I can see it in some things for sure. There comes a point where you have a good feel for how long it should take to down a group of mobs or a boss and I have been in things where I'm like "omg why aren't these dead already". I don't see that as often as others maybe because I do tend to run a lot of things with my FC and friends (or at least partial parties with them). But I've also been lucky to be in complete rando groups where things are melting at a good clip. But I have also been in some parties where it's just like what is happening here? I will say my own dps is not great when I'm learning a new EX fight. I'm too busy trying to learn the mechanics and not die, but when I have that down my dps goes way up because I know how to time my bursts, when I need to be ready to move, etc.

Another problem with this topic is the vastly wide margin for "underperforming", are we talking about savage and stuff? In which case if someone isn't up to your standards, then you PF, your rules. If we're talking just about regular content then people have been all over the place in what we're supposed to see as underperforming, there's a vast different between someone standing around doing nothing to someone simply messing up their rotation or not knowing the ins and outs of their class.

As I said, I refuse to do savage and such but in regular content I'm being told I should be seeing these "underperformers" everywhere, but what constitutes that and at what point am I supposed to care? I could start thinking, "Hm, I've killed these mobs 20 seconds faster on average, someone's not puling their weight..." or "The boss didn't die before X? Who's the low DPSer?" "We took a whole 4 extra minutes in there... someone was clearly not doing their job..." Could I do all of that? Yes, and the thought might have corssed my mind on occasion, but I simply don't see any of that as something worth worrying about in a video game, I'm doing casual content, with people I'll likely never see again in a game, we beat the instance with no fuss, what do I gain by making some? I'd likely add more time trying be "helpful" in those situations than they're "wasting".
Nothing wrong with giving advice or trying to help your fellow player, but like I said in all my playtime since ARR I can count on two hands the amount of players that were playing so poorly that they were actively impacting the group in a negative way, I've encountered far more people who have created that very situation by trying to "better" a player when things were going fine than a player actively playing so bad they needed help.

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Originally Posted by Arillyn

Yea I can see it in some things for sure. There comes a point where you have a good feel for how long it should take to down a group of mobs or a boss and I have been in things where I'm like "omg why aren't these dead already". I don't see that as often as others maybe because I do tend to run a lot of things with my FC and friends (or at least partial parties with them). But I've also been lucky to be in complete rando groups where things are melting at a good clip. But I have also been in some parties where it's just like what is happening here? I will say my own dps is not great when I'm learning a new EX fight. I'm too busy trying to learn the mechanics and not die, but when I have that down my dps goes way up because I know how to time my bursts, when I need to be ready to move, etc.

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It's due to the design of the game. It's simply an objective fact when players are underperforming. There is a way, and a way not to do things as a standard. Sure, high-end players have figured out the timing, position, etc. to perfect this standard, but that's not what is being discussed or asked.
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I think many players conflate clearing content with performing 'adequately'. I've made this argument many times, probably at least twice in this thread. You can generally clear content with several AFK players, if it nearly runs out the timer you can clear content. The issue here is instead of players encouraging others to do better, read their tooltips, etc. many in this community encourage the opposite. As if, encouraging another player to play at an adequate level is a sin, as if doing so is disrespecting that player, but in fact it's the opposite! The player choosing not to play adequately - yes 'choosing' - is in fact disrespecting every other player who has to carry them to complete even casual content. Make no mistake if there was a full party comprised of these players, who are choosing to play at this level, they would either not clear much content (even casual, or 'normal), or it would take FOREVER to do so.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I wonder if fear of the playerbase finding out just how underperforming they are is an unstated reason why SE refuses to put any performance feedback system in the game? I wonder if they fear the beast that they have themselves made?

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LOL installing act was one of the best yet worst things I have could have done to improve my in game experience. Prior to that I had suspensions but having it just confirmed how meh people can be.

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Originally Posted by Awha

LOL installing act was one of the best yet worst things I have could have done to improve my in game experience. Prior to that I had suspensions but having it just confirmed how meh people can be.

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This horror a great community made.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think the problem comes in when you start to question what is considered casual. I’ve seen people on the daily that don’t even aoe in level 80 dungeons. Or just stand around not casting anything as a healer. While the easy mode situations may not be *insanely* detrimental, it promotes bad play which is already a constant thing with this playerbase. I understand people not wanting to treat casual content like dungeons as serious as a raid or something like that which is 100% fine, but i expect people to know their rotations and to know they need to aoe in dungeons. Unfortunately lately it seems like every single day i queue up for roulettes i get at least one dungeon run with a dps or healer that isn’t aoeing which just ends up wasting everyone’s time, and 9 times out of 10 when i offer advice they return it with hostility. There needs to be SOME kind of change in the game whether it’s them creating some kind of gameplay wall that requires people to understand dungeon fundamentals or what. Unfortunately i don’t see this happening because Yoshi P said he wants to streamline dungeons even more which...i genuinely don’t even know how that’s possible given how easy this expansions dungeons have been.

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You must have terrible luck then because I run roulettes 5 or 6 times a week and never see any of this.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

You must have terrible luck then because I run roulettes 5 or 6 times a week and never see any of this.

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Wait you have never seen a player not use AoE's before, or a healer that does nothing between heals? A tank doing single pulls in an expert roulette? A part of me finds that fairly hard to believe, or maybe you just have ungodly luck to say you never seen any of it.

Not saying you have to view such things as underperforming but to say one has never seen such things seems more like the outlier instead of the other way around.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

You must have terrible luck then because I run roulettes 5 or 6 times a week and never see any of this.

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Either you have the best luck ever or you're lying. It happens. I wouldn't say it is constant but I see such things maybe two or three times a week to varying degrees. I usually run a lot of roulettes though, most of which go fairly smooth.

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Originally Posted by squidmonarchy

I think there's an interesting assumption there. If someone is able to play with "tunnel vision" and therefore doesn't notice "something is wrong" unless there's a wipe, then who's to say that something IS wrong? As long as everyone's having fun, it shouldn't matter if each player meets some kind of arbitrarily defined standard of competence.

Everyone pays to be here, and people have different priorities. That can be frustrating, but the solution to that is always to form your own parties.

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The problem is as long as everyone’s having fun. Chances are if someone isn’t taking the time to learn their rotation or know to aoe by the time their level 80, they aren’t going to either care or take the time to see if everyone is having fun. I expect people to do the bare minimum which is just the two things i’ve mentioned and it seems even in endgame content people can’t even do that. Yes everyone pays to be here, but that goes both ways. First and foremost it’s an online game. You’re playing with other people. When you queue up for roulettes you’re doing so with 3 to 7 to 23 other players. Wasting their time because someone doesn’t want to take the time to learn to properly play is rude,inconsiderate, and it will be addressed eventually. People need to learn not to be so sensitive to criticism and should take it to heart.

BTW

Could someone explain what "bare minimum" or "very bare minimum" is to them? Cause all I can conjure in my head when I see those two statements is someone doing 1-2-3 and calling it a day.

Which, if it is something like that, would be really weird because there's quite lot of posts who are not okay with that sort of play but keep using those statements as their point of argument of what they wish people did.

EDIT: To make this easier, pick a job you know inside out, even play optimally, then explain what would be the "very bare minimum" or "bare minimum" of that job.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

You must have terrible luck then because I run roulettes 5 or 6 times a week and never see any of this.

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I don't see it nearly as often as some in this thread are making it seem to happen. But I do see it from time to time - dps not using their aoes or healers standing there picking their nose when no heals are needed, a tank doing single pulls. I don't see it a lot, but it does happen and it is frustrating when it does.

I can only speak of my experiences, but I guess there's something I need to point out first.

No, these are not every single group. If I have to be honest, it's probably not even half of them, you're right on that.

HOWEVER...

It doesn't have to be. It just has to be enough for a player to consider the possibility enough. I remember specifically in 4.1 I stopped doing all group content for the patch, because I just couldn't take the chance anymore. The straw breaking the camel's back being Right here.

As far as things are concerned, this was fine, perfectly acceptable playing, that was enough to continue content, because I had to push whatever I could with my MNK to get through it. Sure, like I said, not even half the parties are like this, but if I end up at any point questioning if queuing is worth it, even with just a small chance of this, then something certainly is wrong.

Enabling isn't okay. Players should be expected to at least contribute if they're gonna do group content. I don't see how that's ever a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

But how is it going to be irrelevant if by doing this you damage the fucking learning curve of the game?

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No idea, wasn't my position.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

those who believe that ignorance is bliss will continue about their business regardless of what anyone says. I don't think these "easy mode" story scenarios are as detrimental as some may think. People have been able to level up fast for some time, even without buying boosts. This isn't anything new.

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I think solo quests are the only situations where people cannot be blissfully ignorant. And if they're already easy enough as is, there is no reason for easier modes. It's not so much about the difficulty of the mode itself, but what the game is telling people by having it.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I wonder if fear of the playerbase finding out just how underperforming they are is an unstated reason why SE refuses to put any performance feedback system in the game? I wonder if they fear the beast that they have themselves made?

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Nah, that kind of fear is easily remedied by nerfing content. There is is performance feedback system in the game: damage and debuff for failed mechanic and wipe for lack of dps/heal/cleanse/mitigation when the situations call for them.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

You can generally clear content with several AFK players, if it nearly runs out the timer you can clear content.

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Sorry, but that's an absurd scenario. If players are AFK, then that's not about underperforming, it's about not playing. It doesn't matter if you can still clear the content, (which I doubt the general population could if it's true that people are generally underperforming) that behavior is not acceptable unless your party agrees to it beforehand.

Also, if you nearly run out of timer, unless you have lots of deaths, in which case people should be encouraged to learn the mechanics to not die, then chances are people are AFK.

So, I don't know about anybody else, but that's not the situations I was discussing here.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Sorry, but that's an absurd scenario. If players are AFK, then that's not about underperforming, it's about not playing. It doesn't matter if you can still clear the content, (which I doubt the general population could if it's true that people are generally underperforming) that behavior is not acceptable unless your party agrees to it beforehand.

Also, if you nearly run out of timer, unless you have lots of deaths, in which case people should be encouraged to learn the mechanics to not die, then chances are people are AFK.

So, I don't know about anybody else, but that's not the situations I was discussing here.

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I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:

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Originally Posted by Vinupra-Rosa

If they actually have such code, I have reason to believe it would be in SE's best interests to do the opposite of your proposition. That is, 'bad' players would be grouped with good players and vice versa. What you're suggesting is basically going to ruin DF by putting 'bad' players in situations where they literally can't clear instances and probably ragequit while the 'good' players keep riding the tailwind of their 'skilled player' privilege.

If you want to play with 'good' players, enter as a premade. When entering duty finder, always expect to carry your party first and foremost to avoid disappointment.

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It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Nah, that kind of fear is easily remedied by nerfing content. There is is performance feedback system in the game: damage and debuff for failed mechanic and wipe for lack of dps/heal/cleanse/mitigation when the situations call for them.

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That not a feedback system, that is a roadblock system and a poor one at that. If they insist on not having a feedback system then they need to change their roadblock system to include more challenging content across the board to make sure everyone is contributing. It's only fair after all.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:



It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

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People carrying others is not in argument. That doesn't mean people should AFK regardless if you think you can still clear content with less people. So accepting that people may not perform to the liking of others is not the same as accepting people going AFK.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

That not a feedback system, that is a roadblock system and a poor one at that. If they insist on not having a feedback system then they need to change their roadblock system to include more challenging content across the board to make sure everyone is contributing. It's only fair after all.

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Feedback is anything that informs you of what you did. You could be in combat with full battle effects shown and not see anything, then you see a debuff, you know you were caught in the AOE.

Not liking the form of feedback doesn't make it any less of a feedback, especially since your character cannot die permanently unless you delete it.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

BTW

Could someone explain what "bare minimum" or "very bare minimum" is to them? Cause all I can conjure in my head when I see those two statements is someone doing 1-2-3 and calling it a day.

Which, if it is something like that, would be really weird because there's quite lot of posts who are not okay with that sort of play but keep using those statements as their point of argument of what they wish people did.

EDIT: To make this easier, pick a job you know inside out, even play optimally, then explain what would be the "very bare minimum" or "bare minimum" of that job.

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I cannot answer for others but bare minimum for me depends on the role. For a tank it is holding aggro, and using cooldowns while actively doing as much damage as possible within a fair margin in relation of their ilvl not expecting flawless play or perfect uptime.

Same for healer expect replace hold aggro with healing.

DPS is also fairly system use AoE in large packs, and make sure at the very least out damage tank and healers in single target encounters. I also judge this accordingly based around if say the rdm is playing rez mage or something. Though generally those are my metrics I know it is petty but I get triggered when I see players in general not aoe'ing and dps that cannot outside healers and tanks
I get the content is brain dead but what is the point of having a dps role if they do not more damage then the tank or healer role.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

BTW

Could someone explain what "bare minimum" or "very bare minimum" is to them? Cause all I can conjure in my head when I see those two statements is someone doing 1-2-3 and calling it a day.

Which, if it is something like that, would be really weird because there's quite lot of posts who are not okay with that sort of play but keep using those statements as their point of argument of what they wish people did.

EDIT: To make this easier, pick a job you know inside out, even play optimally, then explain what would be the "very bare minimum" or "bare minimum" of that job.

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This may vary from one to another individual, but here’s what I think:
- Tank: Holds aggro & nothing else. Which means yes, they will eat some AoEs & eat tankbusters as big as thanksgiving turkey without cooldowns. Additionally will probably not correctly performing their 1-2-3 combo which is frankly not even needed to hold aggro in long run due to how their tank stance increase their enmity generation.
- Healer: Keeps everybody’s HP in healthy range, or at least enough to survive through unavoidable damage & nothing else. Which means, no DoT, no cleansing & no dps spells, and specifically SCH without fairies (!?)
- DPS: Pressing damage skill buttons (and nothing else) until everything’s dead. Preferably to be higher on party’s enmity order list than the healer, but I wouldn’t count of that if they’re not even performing I.e. NIN without their Mudra, DRG without their jumps, Hardcaster RDM, Ice/Thunder BLMs, Summon-less SMNs, Loner DNC, Songless BRDs, 1-2-3 MCH.

I feel like its getting worse every expansion to.
And nobody ever mentions this, but people from Germany or Franch often will not even understand you even if you give advice.
They ignore you even if you auto-translate ^^"
Its weird to me how people in 71>80 content have not figured out the concept of cooldowning a tankbuster etc.
I just have stopped enabling it, and started vote kicking more.
If it doesn't go through I leave, i'm not going through a 45 min lvl 80 dungeon.
I don't care if ppl call me elitist anymore either xD
Know your job at 80 or go run with thrusts.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I'm not sure if you are getting my point. There is such a low bar of actually clearing much of the content in this game, that all it takes are people in the party carrying others, others who may be the equivalent of dead weight. I'd like to highlight this post:



It seems to be generally agreed in this thread, that if these players are put into parties with players who choose to play at this level. They generally will not clear content. What happens when you get a tank who doesn't use their CD's, and can barely hold aggro, who is coupled with a healer who can't keep up due to a subpar usage of their kit and the tanks level of play, combined with two DPS who aren't using AOE skills, so the mobs are alive longer and hitting a tank (or themselves) longer? A WIPE. That's what.

None of this would be a problem if these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level. Instead of being a burden on others across all content in the game, they could be self-sufficient.

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As that's my post, then I will deign to respond.

You're missing a very big part of the point (and something that I expanded on in another pots), and that is beginners often start of performing highly subpar. Because they are, of course, beginners. The game doesn't really give you much in the way of tutelage with regards to performing optimally, or at least what would be considered standard by the community. Active help and tooltips exist, but the former is something that most people ignore in my experience and the latter can sometimes (as in the case of silently updating tooltips and freecure) be misleading. Hall of the novice teaches super basic practices, some of which is outdated and/or harmful (it basically teaches single pulling).

Locking DF to tiers would case entrenchment of 'bad' practices amongst 'bad' players which would make it harder to 'graduate' and qualify to the 'upper tiers'. On that thread, running as a 'good' player, being saddled with a 'bad' player is not that big of a burden most of the time (20 minute run instead of 12? NBD) and that comes with the bonus that 'good' players will serve as role models for the 'bad' players. And that is what people should strive to be -- role models, to show new players how it's done, to push them to do their best while reassuring them that they can do it. But 'bads' being consistently grouped with 'bads' gives them little room to grow and instead saddles them with unnecessary frustration far greater than duties taking 8 minutes longer to complete than normal. Chances are this will result in more people leaving instead of learning, as well as create an expectation where duties are going to be horrible anyways.

I've stopped a few times to help newbies better grasp their kit, and got gratitude most of the time (sometimes another party member would become impatient, but hush -- i'm teaching the newbie). But even verbal instruction is not the limit of this -- a good tank mass-pulling a dungeon will show a DPS how 'things are done' so that they can do the same when they pick up tanking, for example. And a dps or tank witnessing firsthand the glory of Holy might tempt them to use the skill when they are the healer. That brings me to this point:

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these players were encouraged to play at an 'adequate' level

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Be a role model. Offer help. You can't just force people to learn, but you can set an example for them to look up to. That is how you encourage people to play at an 'adequate' level and have them stop being a burden. Does it always work? No - there are people who will resist, but not everyone will and that's what matters. Even people who at first 'resist' might later on 'wisen up' and learn.

People underperforming at 80 was brought up but, again, even at 80 it's possible to be misinformed and/or not grasp fully how a job works, or they might have known but forget due to disuse. For heavens' sake, a person I know personally adviced me to not expend the heat gauge on trash pulls and both of us were at 80. BLM confused me enough that I levelled it to 80 through trusts just to get it out of the way and while I once knew NIN I have forgotten how to play it. Someone trying to get back into a job they had not played in forever will mess up badly even with prior study. People need to calm down.

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-Thread-

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This whole thread does remind me though. I don't coddle: I put any sprouts I am helping through trials of fire, pushing them on pulls that would normally be reserved for veterans. The reason? I want them to commit errors and learn while in the presence of a friendly party who is willing to help so that they won't be making these same errors in the company of the elitists such as those who have aired their laundry in this thread, who may see no issue in kicking/attacking/insulting them and otherwise discourage them from playing further simply because 'bah, this person is being a leech! screw them!'