No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Nice try, but no not at all. The difference between me & you is that I mind my business, don't bother anybody in my group out of nowhere, close my mouth, and just play the game, whereas with you, you start barking orders and attempting to talk to people from a (imaginary) higher place. I said it clearly, in my reply, but in case you missed it, I will say it again: "you need to keep that to yourself."

If you want to be a toxic egoist, then keep it to yourself and stay quiet, leave your group mates and others out of it.

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Wow you need to calm the F down there bucko.

Your original reply was not to me. I was commenting on what looked like a toxic attitude coupled with a logical fallacy.

Apparently I was dead on with that analysis.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

If the healer wants to DPS, then he or she or it can queue as a DPS. Any healer who complains about having to heal is a healer who only queued as a healer to avoid a long DPS queue.

Also, I find it odd that such a healer would be worried about being able to contribute to the DPS when they are telling the tank to slow down in order to allow them to do so. The only reason for a healer to do any DPS is to speed things up. Your post makes very little sense here.

I'm not advocating for huge pulls- as a DPS, I find it annoying when I'm playing a BLM and have to chase the tanks for half a mile before I can unload a few nuclear bombs.

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What else are healers supposed to do? This game's content hits like a wet noodle. Healers place so much emphasis on their DPS because they'd be AFK otherwise. When the current Expert dungeon bosses can't break 50,000 on their busters despite the tank having several vuln stacks, it highlights just how little healing is actually required.

As for your BLM. Those "nuclear bombs" will deal significantly more damage on a pack of ten mobs than three. So waiting until the tank has everything gathered up is far better than wanting baby pulls.

Awful lot of people don't seem to know that 170*9 (Doom Spike) is way more than 360*1 (Fang & Claw/Wheeling Thrust). Or even Full Thrust (530).

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Wow you need to calm the F down there bucko.

Your original reply was not to me. I was commenting on what looked like a toxic attitude coupled with a logical fallacy.

Apparently I was dead on with that analysis.

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Nah, you weren't. Once again though, nice try. When you're here defending/ignoring/enabling the ones who are trying to put players down for no good reason and then attacking the ones calling them out for it, you have no credibility when it comes to identifying toxicity. And also, let's make this clear, me not allowing you to accuse me of something and then challenging you on it does not equal me not being calm. What are you even talking about. It's actually funny because as I typed that previous response I was quietly laughing irl because I KNEW that my post would garner responses like yours where I'd be accused of being toxic because I'm passionately calling out toxicity (poetic, isn't it?). It is what it is though lol. And I couldn't care less who my original response was to, you tried to jump on me and accuse me of doing something I wasn't in an effort to make me look like a fool, so I reacted accordingly ;D

“I’m going to call out toxicity while being toxic myself.”

Hmm. :thinking:

The words “toxic” and “toxicity” truly have no meaning anymore.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

“I’m going to call out toxicity while being toxic myself.”

Hmm. :thinking:

The words “toxic” and “toxicity” truly have no meaning anymore.

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They're essentially buzz words these days for 'things and/or people I don't like and want to discredit'. The irony being that a lot of times the people who fling those words around actually fit the original meaning more often than not.

i love doing big pulls on my tank and healing them on my healing. when on dancer i love aoeing them down. its more fun. If you dont feel right with big pulls just say so at the start. if i'm learning a new one as healer i just request that they take it easy while i adjust myself to these pulls in this dungeon. 9/10 times it works.

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

Stop trying to be a hero, and concentrate your attacks on one enemy at a time! I guarantee, they will go down a lot quicker individually, than if you try to take out 213128901 of them at once.

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This is Objectively false. You will never make it through a dungeon faster than someone chain pulling, ever. There is zero reason you should be doing single pulls, mobs do not hit that hard to warrant it. To top it all off you're essentially griefing your group by doing this intentionally because you "think" it's faster when the only thing it's doing is wasting 3 other people's time. Stop trying to make this a thing. It will never be a thing.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

You need to relax. I'm not gonna reply to everything in this response because honestly I just don't care enough. But, I need to address a few things you brought up...so, if the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks, speaking as a Savage/EX Tank myself, if my healer can keep us healed up and allow us to progress through content, hey are a fine healer. Period. You're really coming off as an elitist right now. Also, speaking as a Tank who literally ALWAYS pulls wall to wall, if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle, and if their role gives them the authority to control just that, RESPECT THAT, or you have no business playing with a team. Pulling wall to wall isn't required to clear any content, and that's all that needs to be said.

Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Yawn...another toxic player who thinks they know everything. And it's honestly hilarious that you went through the trouble of stalking me just to be wrong. Here's a wild concept, it's possible to do Savage content and not have a mount.

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It's not toxic when you can literally Lodestone on a public website there's even a search info button that you can use, and they're right why say you're a Savage raider when you can't even grasp the basics of mass pulling? You come in here putting down people's play style for your own? You came into this thread with an attitude that reflects how you are saying that "nope everyone's wrong! You're blowing this out of proportion because my way is the highway!". It's like you made your own handbook and slapped it into the forums it's kind of hilarious if you ask me.

You say you close your mouth in your dungeons and be respectful but yet you come on the forums being the only one with an ego on here pretty ironic isn't it? People care about effort, not being some 100 percentile Ultimate raider which is the image you labeled people as, we want people who actually give a damn and you don't, you are the kind of person who let people get away with the bare minimum (like yourself) and then think it's okay and it's not.

It's why we have Ice Mages running around, DPS who don't AoE, healers that just spam Medica II, tanks that don't pop CDs and overpull or show up undergeared and because you don't say anything at all you're enabling it so I don't agree with you or your attitude you can take it out the door.

If you can't do a section of a dungeon in one go, then start by cutting the pull size just in half.
Still big, more manageable for a healer.

And at the end of the day, it all depends on the group composition and level of the duty, in Sastasha and comparable, you might not yet have AoE in a group, while at 50 or higher? You can pretty much be assured to have AoE available.

The irony of this thread..so many people talking about respect while showing the most disrespect they can display.

I fully support Bakugekiki .
If you Don't have time to do a dungeon properly, Don't tag or tag unsync, or build a full rusher group.
Players have also the right to do a dungeon by taking their time and having fun.

It takes a low amount of skill and a modicum amount of gear to flawlessly do big pulls, so when a tank doesn't do it, they clearly are either trolling or really, really bad. Don't troll and pull big, always.

That's the best amount of BS I've ever seen here.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

It takes a low amount of skill and a modicum amount of gear to flawlessly do big pulls, so when a tank doesn't do it, they clearly are either trolling or really, really bad. Don't troll and pull big, always.

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Dat bait tho.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

It takes a low amount of skill and a modicum amount of gear to flawlessly do big pulls, so when a tank doesn't do it, they clearly are either trolling or really, really bad. Don't troll and pull big, always.

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Hmm that must mean that 80% of the tanks is trolling then in dungeons

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Hmm that must mean that 80% of the tanks is trolling then in dungeons

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Not trying to be an A-hole here, but is it really difficult to cycle through your role actions and different class cooldowns? For normal dungeons, that's pretty much all you have to do. There isn't much thinking involved in it. Trials with tank busters and certain bosses can be a bit more nuanced, obviously, but overall for trash pulls? Yeah, there really isn't much more to it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The words “toxic” and “toxicity” truly have no meaning anymore.

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Did they ever?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Hmm that must mean that 80% of the tanks is trolling then in dungeons

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You're not 80%. You are 0.01%. I don't even remember the last time tank was sissy pulling and I run dungeons daily.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Yawn...another toxic player who thinks they know everything. And it's honestly hilarious that you went through the trouble of stalking me just to be wrong. Here's a wild concept, it's possible to do Savage content and not have a mount. The fact that you're even trying to equate the two shows me that you shouldn't be taken seriously. But aside from that, why do you even care so much? After reading my entire response, why was your natural reaction to immediately stalk my character, go through every mount I have, and try to (and fail at that) prove me wrong about doing Savage content LOL. Are you really that desperate to have a "Gotcha!" moment? Sigh, it is what it is I guess. This is why folks like you have such a poor reputation across the game's whole population, you just ooze negativity and hatred.

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https://i.giphy.com/media/q6F4zKsm3agDK/giphy.webp
Okay please calm down everybody, especially you.
What has gotten into you with this post?

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Originally Posted by FFgame

You're not 80%. You are 0.01%. I don't even remember the last time tank was sissy pulling and I run dungeons daily.

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0.01% is incompatible with the existence of a "Tales of the Duty Finder" thread.

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Originally Posted by FFgame

You're not 80%. You are 0.01%. I don't even remember the last time tank was sissy pulling and I run dungeons daily.

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that greatly increased for me in shadowbringers, to me maybe like 20% of tanks do single pack pulls.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

0.01% is incompatible with the existence of a "Tales of the Duty Finder" thread.

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Remember that forum posters make up a tiny portion of the overall playerbase, and an even smaller percentage of that small percentage post in that thread.

I run tons of content with my main and many alts and on Aether and Crystal I can say that single wave pulls are very rare. Some will do two wave in Acadaemia but the majority will do 3. On Chocobo the single wave pulls were pretty common although that appears to be changing with many now pulling everything.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Remember that forum posters make up a tiny portion of the overall playerbase, and an even smaller percentage of that small percentage post in that thread.

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My experiences and of everyone in-game I know seem to support this. And let's not get into the devs indirectly confirming it (easy mode for solo duties, classes having their DPS gap between proper play and failing positionals/combos reduced as time goes by, etc)

There's a huge difference between using forum population to extrapolate tendencies for the whole playerbase - "X people liked the Male Viera support thread so that means most of the playerbase supports it too" - and using that to dismiss forum posters experiences and testimonies. You're basically saying that forum posters are unreliable witnesses at best and liars at worst.

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Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

that greatly increased for me in shadowbringers, to me maybe like 20% of tanks do single pack pulls.

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People don't actually hate this do they? Like most of the time when I start a dungeon i've never done before I pull a single pack to gauge what kind of damage they do because im leveling a tank and my gear is equal to the level of the dungeon. I haven't had this happen much, most of the time the healer looks at my gear and realizes why im not big dick pulling. Or the DPS looks at the healer's gear. but yeah on a experienced group theres kinda no reason to single pack pulls.

also when i realize the healer doesnt want to heal me because they are too busy blinding me with holy

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

I'm gonna go on a bit of a rant here...

It irks me greatly when I'm in a dungeon duty and a tank is pulling multiple skirmishes at once, even as much as an entire leg of a dungeon. This is neither smart nor effective, especially if a healer cannot contribute to the damage dealing because (s)he is too busy trying to keep everybody alive and expending his/her entire MP pool in the process. It's even more irritating when I as a tank am being asked to pull more than one skirmish, and people start getting salty or even quitting because they don't like my pace.

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WHM main here. I have not seen one instance since Shadowbringers where I haven't been able to put out any DPS during a big pull. Sure it happened every once in a while in Stormblood, but that was mostly tanks in level 50 gear pulling Bardam's wall-to-wall. It just wasn't going to work, though admittedly, it was always funny to see them get instagibbed by the wall mobs at the end.

If the healer's running out of MP now, with the min ilvls in leveling dungeons, either they or you are doing something wrong. I almost never go below 3-4k MP on big pulls, 90+% of the time I barely get to 7-8k. And when it comes down to raw DPS, would you rather I be hitting 1-3 mobs per GCD with Holy, or 10+?

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Originally Posted by Bakugekiki

IT'S NOT A RACE, PEOPLE!!! When you do a dungeon, you are committed to it for 90 minutes, and while it should never take nearly that long with a decent party, there's no need to attempt to blitz through it and risk a wipe, either. Stop trying to be a hero, and concentrate your attacks on one enemy at a time! I guarantee, they will go down a lot quicker individually, than if you try to take out 213128901 of them at once.

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Most of the time we're just trying to make what is normally a boring slog more entertaining. Every single dungeon in the game is faceroll easy when you're running it potentially hundreds of times over the course of a couple years. Big pulls are rarely ever slower now, and in some instances, the dungeon was designed for multi-pack pulls (Arboretum Hard immeditely comes to mind, the section before the 2nd boss).

I literally almost fall asleep every time Swallow's Compass shows up in 70 roulette if the tank does small pulls. Nearly every tank slow pulls it, yet you can almost clear the whole place solo as a WHM while synced (and not just the trash either). Many of them are actually that easy. Its the one dungeon in the game where I won't hesitate to just pop Sprint, run like a madman and pull everything myself.

I do miss the old Brayflox HM speedruns. Those were fun times. People were like "OMG you need i90 gear gonna half pull!" I was at i83 avg. around that time, and had no issues with the monstrous full pulls back then. Every big pull we get to do nowadays is a joke compared to those. It ramped up what would have been a total snoozefest into a real challenge. And yeah, the "half" was about what most very big pulls are now.

I could agree with some of arguments, but shouldn't it overall depend on circumstances?

If you as tank or your healer can't manage pig pulls, then sure you should not do them. If your party dps is too low, there isn't much sense in either since healer and tank can just end up getting out of MP and defensive CDs.

However, if party is okay and you aren't in leveling dungeon with 3 non-synced people in leveling armor, then I see literally zero issues with big pulls. Especially if you have casters, who are more effective with AoEs than anybody else (specifically Summoner with its shareable dot-skills).

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Originally Posted by Halivel

However, if party is okay and you aren't in leveling dungeon with 3 non-synced people in leveling armor, then I see literally zero issues with big pulls. Especially if you have casters, who are more effective with AoEs than anybody else (specifically Summoner with its shareable dot-skills).

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Pretty much this yeah. Leveling dungeons aren't as vulnerable as level-cap dungeons to being outgeared and curbstomped, so for people who are learning their role or maybe not playing the best, it's not completely trivial. Assuming it's not a gear issue, you absolutely still should try, because AoE is so ignorantly powerful & it serves as a learning experience for those willing to learn how to leverage their tools more effectively.

But level-cap dungeons? If you're in one of those, you are by necessity at the level cap and should by all rights have had sufficient time with your job to learn the very basics you need to successfully tank or heal a standard double pull. Just read your tooltips and press your buttons. Maybe communicate a little to leverage cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Awful

snip

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Another post that comes across as toxic...sigh. However, I'll admit in my past responses I did come across as a little toxic myself, I apologize for that and I hope this one comes across better. I gotta ask though, why are some of you people so hung up on this Savage thing, constantly trying to invalidate me is kind of rude. But aside from that, in one of my posts, I clearly said that personally I always pull wall to wall. So I'm not sure why you're trying to disrespect me as a player off of that invalid point...stuff like this is why I'm saying some of you are behaving in a toxic manner. My main objective here is defending the guys who don't happen to share that playstyle, from the abuse that comes from players who hold similar beliefs as you.

Once again, I really suggest that you go back and read my posts thoroughly. I never once said that Tanks MUST pull a certain way or anything along those lines, I'm saying that whether you agree with their pull style or not, just leave it alone and don't interrogate them because as the Tank they have every right to control the pace of the dungeon.

Do you have the right to be annoyed by it? Sure, even though I personally find it pretty petty to let something like that bother you since all it'll really do is extend a run by a few minutes, but it's not like you're "not allowed" to feel a certain way about it, of course you are.

Honestly, a lot of you really need to learn the difference between trying to genuinely give needed advice, and unnecessary nitpicking. A good rule of thumb is as follows: if someone's playstyle isn't wiping the group, putting the group at the risk of a wipe, or if they did not ask you for advice, just leave them be. I've personally never seen this so-called "Ice Mage" whose existence you're passionately blaming me for (this is also kind of toxic tbh), but if their playstyle isn't putting the group at risk of a wipe, then I would leave it alone (now of course, this is relative to the content, so naturally, dungeons would have a higher tolerance than X primals or Savage content).

And lastly, to give you some friendly advice, bro I really suggest that you try to loosen up a bit. This is really not that serious, I'm just concerned that you're saying things like "I'm enabling"this and that, and speaking like people making the mistakes you illustrated in the your paragraph is some sort of global crisis. Dude...relax. You gotta stop like, evaluating every person you play this game with. At the end of the day, it's just about having a good time, I said it once, and I'll say it again, this isn't some office setting. And I mean all of that in the most respectful way possible.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

https://i.giphy.com/media/q6F4zKsm3agDK/giphy.webp
Okay please calm down everybody, especially you.
What has gotten into you with this post?

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I'll admit that I did show slight toxicity in my past responses, I had good intentions but just came across the wrong way. I'll apologize for that. But I gotta be real with you man, by saying "especially you", you're inferring that I'm the main one showing toxicity in this thread, and that couldn't be further from the truth. My main mission here is to just defend people from verbal abuse, especially verbal abuse they don't deserve.

People are allowed to disagree with the pull style, but leave it at that. They must not start disrespecting the Tank because of it. There are people in this thread who are seriously (and proudly) putting down Tanks who pull small and speaking so nastily about them when the Tank didn't even do or say anything to them. I read a response from a guy who said Tanks who do this shouldn't even queue up. Really? Just because they pull small they're not allowed to play the game? Like, come on man. That's just messed up, stuff like that is not okay, and yes I do hold onto the belief that stuff like that does come across as elitist. So to restate my main point, you can feel how you wanna feel about it, but don't start disrespecting people over it (something we all need to work on in this thread).

What an absolute beaut this thread turned out to be.
https://i.imgur.com/MrW5mUX.gif

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Originally Posted by Eli85

It takes a low amount of skill and a modicum amount of gear to flawlessly do big pulls, so when a tank doesn't do it, they clearly are either trolling or really, really bad. Don't troll and pull big, always.

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This is my first toon and I am only level 50ish paladin. I give a warning that I am new, so I don’t mass pull. When should one even start mass pulling? Is it an end game thing or can you do it while levelling? I wouldn’t say I am bad, more inexperienced.

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Originally Posted by Ferwyn

I wouldn’t say I am bad, more inexperienced.

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It's tougher in leveling dungeons but very easy in level-cap dungeons when your gear is good enough to be subject to item level sync. The basic idea is the same as single pulls- establish aggro, then start rotating cooldowns. Aim to always have one up, and don't forget about Hallowed Ground, though you needn't treat it as strictly for emergencies either.

As for being inexperienced there's not really a better way to do it than to just go for it! Pull two packs of mobs together, try to always have a cooldown rolling as best you're able, and then use AoE attacks to keep aggro & deal damage. All there is to it

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You're basically saying that forum posters are unreliable witnesses at best and liars at worst.

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Well no. If I'd wanted to say that I'd have said it.

What I'm saying is that the existence or popularity of any particular thread on the forums should not be construed as a tendency of the playerbase overall. It should be read as a reflection of the people posting in the thread.

WHM main here.

I did not play much in Stormblood and used Trusts for all of the MSQ in Shadowbringers but have done roulettes, etc since.

When the tank does big pulls I can definitely feel they are taking more damage than they did in ARR or HW. It definitely has taken time for me to adjust.

The most difficult thing is getting used to each individual tank though. They all seem to have a different idea of when to use their cool downs.

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Originally Posted by KarmaLad

What an absolute beaut this thread turned out to be.
https://i.imgur.com/MrW5mUX.gif

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MORE POPCORN PLZ!!:D

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Dat bait tho.

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No bait, just the truth. If you really, truly cannot wall-to-wall pull, then you should re-think your given role. It's really not hard to cycle cooldowns and stay alive. Of course, if your healer is a turd, things become more complicated, but a healer can keep a tank alive in this scenario by simply spamming a single heal.

Game's not that hard, folks.

I'm sure this has been brought up by now, but just take a few seconds to ask the healer if they prefer larger or normal pulls. You can easily get the question out and a response back before everyone reaches the first set of mobs. If they prefer larger pulls, great. If they prefer normal pulls, great. With the same group we're usually talking about a difference of less than five minutes between the two types of runs.

Adapting to your group helps. Sometimes between the composition and the players involved the damage output is less than stellar and larger pulls drag on longer than they normally would. If the extended time is putting strain on the healer and preventing them from dealing damage and actually doing more harm than benefit to the pace, pull less mobs until you find the sweet spot for the party.

You can actually save a good bit of time by keeping in mind which pulls are not melee friendly. If you have melee DPS and they're constantly running around to avoid enormous PBAOE telegraph circles instead of dealing damage, wall-to-wall pulls can actually work against you. This was an issue with the tail end of The Burn unless the group was packing decent ranged damage.

Just be smart during the run. It's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Ferwyn

This is my first toon and I am only level 50ish paladin. I give a warning that I am new, so I don’t mass pull. When should one even start mass pulling? Is it an end game thing or can you do it while levelling? I wouldn’t say I am bad, more inexperienced.

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Level 50, 60, 70 and 80 dungeons. You can stop running if you haven't encountered a wall or barrier after 3 packs of enemies and adjust from there once you know the dungeon better. Leveling dungeons can easily be done as 2 packs per pull. Rotate defensive cooldowns one by one and not all at once.

If a healer tells you to do single pulls, they are the exception. I have not encountered a healer like that in at least the past two years.