All Greed on Alliance loot

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

I don't remember seeing anyone complaining about getting loot from alliance raids.

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Well, apparently there has been a demand for a change that allows you to get gear for your alt easier while on your main, so you don't need to run the place too often. The keypoints of the request are: Being able to get alt-gear while on the main, not having to run the place often.

The issue is that the "solution" they chose is once again badly thought out, lazy and perhaps worst of all, doesn't even achieve the desired result.
It's like they're playing that "corrupt a wish" forum game.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

I don't remember seeing anyone complaining about getting loot from alliance raids. But with this change in the works, we definitely will.

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There has been in the past but not exactly for this reason, it was more about the RNG, that said I keep telling that the reward system doesn't really work anymore if they keep as is.
Personally thanks to eureka, crafting and savage I was not planning on getting any gear from the 24 anymore.
This change just cemented my decision, I'll get my weekly token and I'll move on

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Originally Posted by Alleo

You get one token per cleared run. This token has then a daily limit and SE just have to pin down a number for each part of the gear set. Done

Keep it to the most recent raid thus people would still need to run older ones more times thanks to glamour.

And on top of that you keep it fair with tanks still being the only one that can need on tank gear and people can just use the job they love the most if they dont feel like going into this with the necessary other job and get their stuff with tokens. (Or a lucky greed roll if the other person does not need it)

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With this system:
- Doing multiple runs in a day is now completly useless. Someone with a lot of time will not be able to obtain what they want by going in multiple time in the same day. This is aggravated if that player is also impacted by the next issue.
- It forces people to play one of the longest content in the game (especially during release time when wipes often happen) every single day. Someone who can only play on the weekends will fall behind by 4 or 5 tokens a week. For a "catch up" content, that's pretty bad.
- It's pretty much a progress bar, which is one of the things the most criticized in MMORPG for being completly bland and unfun. "Do task X times, go buy reward". I know some people don't see the "fun" aspect as important even though it is, so I won't get too much into it.

While your idea is nice on first glance... the underlying issues are extremely impactful. And not in a good way.
So, again, token systems are far from flawless. This one is actually pretty detrimental to a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Let us buy one piece of gear with the weekly coin. Those who are already equipped with 260 tome gear can upgrade it as usual and those who need the catch up gear can buy an extra piece of alliance raid gear per week.

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While this would add another nice option for people who have jobs they'd like to gear up, it doesn't really solve the issue being discussed of the "all greed" for chests. I mean, if I need multiple healer 260 pieces to gear my alt, I won't roll on something else that might drop in chests simply because I can buy one with my weekly token.
So yeah, nice suggestion, but doesn't solve the main issue.

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Keep the ideas coming though. I think I made my point about token systems not being as easy as a solution as people think.
However, there is actually at least one token system which pretty much answers what people are concerned about without drastically changing the outcome. I want to see if you guyz can figure it out (a way of keeping the thread alive while being constructive). The only downside this system would have is the same as something we already had during one of the relic step. It's linked to the perception of failures in a random system. But it's something completly bearable.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

Too many people complained about players using Need for drops to use for glamor or allied seals or retainer equipment over players that needed the gear for upgrades. I can't even bring myself to be mad anymore. Those players asked SE to fix the problem. They did in the only way they could without changing more of the game. It stinks but this is a good lesson in why its not always a good idea to ask a company to fix community created problems.

People wanted fair, they got fair now.

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Actually, no. JP runs Alliance differently compared to us; prioritizing their mains to maximize contribution. Apparently, there were frequent complaints regarding loot hence the change. It had nothing whatsoever to do with people wanting Company Seals lest they make this change universal.

A simple solution is lifting the token system from EX Primals. You run x amount per week, and either purchase the item of your choosing or get lucky beforehand, thus not needing to run as many times the subsequent week.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A simple solution is lifting the token system from EX Primals. You run x amount per week, and either purchase the item of your choosing or get lucky beforehand, thus not needing to run as many times the subsequent week.

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It comes with it's own issues as I have a friend who legitimately needed the Ravana tokens to even get the bird due to poor RNG luck but frankly anything is better than the free for all they're currently proposing.

This proposed change is a solution in need of a problem. It’s always made sense to me to run these as the job I’d like to get gear for. I did Rabanastre during 4.1 almost exclusively as healer just to keep my healing skills clear of rust (and hooo boy did it do a good job of that) and to upgrade my gear for healers.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, no. JP runs Alliance differently compared to us; prioritizing their mains to maximize contribution. Apparently, there were frequent complaints regarding loot hence the change. It had nothing whatsoever to do with people wanting Company Seals lest they make this change universal.

A simple solution is lifting the token system from EX Primals. You run x amount per week, and either purchase the item of your choosing or get lucky beforehand, thus not needing to run as many times the subsequent week.

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still in shock they do a change for one user base.. isn't that racist?

Only problem i see token is , people shouldn't have to wait 4 weeks for a drop.

Run it once, get 2 tokens, one to upgrade the limited tomestone gear, and one for whatever gear is supposed to drop.

But Have a bigger issue, the older ones. I may run it for a glam specifically and people just bot the greed button or w/e so they can sell it for seals. This is an insanely selfish change.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, no. JP runs Alliance differently compared to us; prioritizing their mains to maximize contribution. Apparently, there were frequent complaints regarding loot hence the change. It had nothing whatsoever to do with people wanting Company Seals lest they make this change universal.

A simple solution is lifting the token system from EX Primals. You run x amount per week, and either purchase the item of your choosing or get lucky beforehand, thus not needing to run as many times the subsequent week.

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Well, to be fair, the reason people are using the class they want to gear up is to an extent caused by the loot system... But the all greed is very much not the solution to people wanting to maximize their chances of getting a certain piece when it does finally drop on the 20th run.

The best idea I've seen is still the idea that if you run the raid a few times during a week without getting anything from the bosses, it would give a token that counts as your weekly drop and could be turned into one piece of gear from the raid.
It would cap the amount of times people have to run it weekly to gear up.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

That's contradictory though. Because if they always play there main and thus best geared job to not drag groups down why bother gearing an alt you will never play because your main will always be better geared and thus always the one you play..

But to be honest I thought the reason 24mans had such low difficulty settingscwas because players typically used alt jobs in them

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Exactly. If they dont want to let people down and even just play their main in 24 man raids..then wouldnt that mean that they only play them in savage and extreme content too? So why do they need the gear that much? They could still just level them up with older dungeons and older stone currency and be done with that..

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Originally Posted by Fyce

With this system:
- Doing multiple runs in a day is now completly useless. Someone with a lot of time will not be able to obtain what they want by going in multiple time in the same day. This is aggravated if that player is also impacted by the next issue.
- It forces people to play one of the longest content in the game (especially during release time when wipes often happen) every single day. Someone who can only play on the weekends will fall behind by 4 or 5 tokens a week. For a "catch up" content, that's pretty bad.
- It's pretty much a progress bar, which is one of the things the most criticized in MMORPG for being completly bland and unfun. "Do task X times, go buy reward". I know some people don't see the "fun" aspect as important even though it is, so I won't get too much into it.

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- People can still have their normal roll, the tokens would be on top of that. So if they can go into this a few times a day they could still get their gear by simply only rolling on it when it comes up (and since it would still have need, they would even get a big chance to own that) Also right now you still only get one loot per week thanks to the limit, so I dont really understand that argument. If you get one item on your first run you wont even run that raid again for the rest of the week because you wont get any gear loot till reset..tokens or not wont change that. Those that run it more than once per day either run it because they are unlucky and did not get what they want or because they do it for other reasons. Those other reasons would not be touched with tokens.

- First you said that running it more than once a day is now useless and now you are saying that this would force people to run it once a day? Again these tokens are on top of that. You dont need them. Its only there for those that may either have really bad luck or that want to gear up other jobs. Nearly a lot of stuff in this game will put people behind it if they dont do it daily/weekly. Be it beast tribes, tomestones (weekly), all the dungeon/instances where you get one loot per week (because you will not get that loot if you did not do it per week) And those that can only play at the weekend are always behind because they have less chances per week to get the loot they need. With tokens they raise their chance because they just get them when running the content anyway. So without tokens they might run it four weekends without the loot they want and have nothing to show at the end while with tokens they might still run that many times but they get a token each time and thus might be able to at least get one piece after those weekends. So winning for them too.

- And its completely more fun to run this content 40x without ever getting that drop that you need? There will be people who dont like the tokens and they simply can throw them away. But I believe that quite a bit of people love to have a way to battle bad RNG. I mean we have tokens for the primals and as far as I know this change was taken quite positive by the playerbase.

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This solution would be something on top of the normal weekly roll. It would help those unlucky people that would lose the roll against others (as DD) or that never see their gear when they play it. At least with tokens they know that they will get loot x after y runs. It also helps all those with more than one job because you can simply gear two of them. One with the roll that you normaly have and another with the tokens. (At the same time)

I am sorry but I cant see any of your arguments as good ones against these tokens. People that love to run it more than once daily can still do it because the normal rolls still exist, all those that cant play daily are already falling back because they have less chances to get the loot per week and with the greed only option they may get even less chances to get stuff. With tokens they might at least have something after a bit of time. (And honestly people with less time will always be behind, thats the way MMOs functions). And those that dislike such a progess can simply throw the tokens away and do it the normal way.

You might not like them but these could still be solutions. Nothing will ever be perfect.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, to be fair, the reason people are using the class they want to gear up is to an extent caused by the loot system... But the all greed is very much not the solution to people wanting to maximize their chances of getting a certain piece when it does finally drop on the 20th run.

The best idea I've seen is still the idea that if you run the raid a few times during a week without getting anything from the bosses, it would give a token that counts as your weekly drop and could be turned into one piece of gear from the raid.
It would cap the amount of times people have to run it weekly to gear up.

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So would it be something similar to the Challenge Log (after doing content X times you get token, but if you don't finish it by reset, then progress is lost), or the tome system (can only gather {amount} per week, but erase what has been acquired)? Also would getting a piece from the raid erase your token progress (since SE seem to really like their one item per week rule), or no?

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Originally Posted by Aylis

Too many people complained about players using Need for drops to use for glamor or allied seals or retainer equipment over players that needed the gear for upgrades. I can't even bring myself to be mad anymore. Those players asked SE to fix the problem. They did in the only way they could without changing more of the game. It stinks but this is a good lesson in why its not always a good idea to ask a company to fix community created problems.

People wanted fair, they got fair now.

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They should never have made Alliance raid gear desynth/gc seals. Glamor-only would have solved it pretty darn quick, or tokens/collection-book style would. The reason people can keep "need"'
ing on things they already have is because they've out-geared it, and have either turned it in already for seals, desynthed it, or stashed it in the chocobo bag/retainer.

Even with an "all-greed" solution, they should have forced "greed" only on all content that they've out-leveled, while still allowing players to "need" items that is "better" than what they've already equipped for their role.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So would it be something similar to the Challenge Log (after doing content X times you get token, but if you don't finish it by reset, then progress is lost), or the tome system (can only gather {amount} per week, but erase what has been acquired)? Also would getting a piece from the raid erase your token progress (since SE seem to really like their one item per week rule), or no?

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The suggestion I made earlier was to make something like the Collection book Khloe has, where all raid gear is in it and marked down as you complete those raids, and you could then redeem it. That gets rid of all these otherwise-trash items taking up space in the inventory.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So would it be something similar to the Challenge Log (after doing content X times you get token, but if you don't finish it by reset, then progress is lost), or the tome system (can only gather {amount} per week, but erase what has been acquired)? Also would getting a piece from the raid erase your token progress (since SE seem to really like their one item per week rule), or no?

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Well, I don't know how exactly it would work, or if the game would even support it. But it would be something like the challenge log, but it would have to get locked once you loot a piece of gear from the raid as it's not supposed to be a second loot, but rather an alternative to the raid not giving you chances to roll for your loot.

A challenge-log-esque system does sound like the ideal. They could even make it relatively easy on themselves by actually adding it to the challenge log (hide it from us if they feel inclined, just use the system). The award given to you when you hit the max is a gear token. To get around the problem of giving you multiple tokens per week, runs you continue doing (for whatever reason) on that week might still tick for the challenge, but when you hit max it'll check if you're still eligible or not. If not, it just silently goes into the shadows.
They'll still need to add some minor tweaks but the core system for something like this already exists.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

- People can still have their normal roll, the tokens would be on top of that. So if they can go into this a few times a day they could still get their gear by simply only rolling on it when it comes up (and since it would still have need, they would even get a big chance to own that) Also right now you still only get one loot per week thanks to the limit, so I dont really understand that argument. If you get one item on your first run you wont even run that raid again for the rest of the week because you wont get any gear loot till reset..tokens or not wont change that. Those that run it more than once per day either run it because they are unlucky and did not get what they want or because they do it for other reasons. Those other reasons would not be touched with tokens.

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I misunderstood that you wanted to also keep the current system. My bad.
So yeah, that solves the issue of not being able to "brute force" what you want. But keeping the current system doesn't solve the issue they have in JP where they have trouble gearing alts since they feel pressured into going in with their main. They'd now have some kind of safety net, but the main issue with chests still remains... Unless you switch to the all greed rule as well.
Whatever the case, a token system ontop of the chest one would increase the number of equipment you can get per week. You didn't gave any numbers, but I'll assume that one week worth of tokens can give you at least one piece. So now you'd have twice as much pieces of equipment as before per week. While players would rejoice, it's probably not something SE wants to change.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

- First you said that running it more than once a day is now useless and now you are saying that this would force people to run it once a day? Again these tokens are on top of that. You dont need them. Its only there for those that may either have really bad luck or that want to gear up other jobs. Nearly a lot of stuff in this game will put people behind it if they dont do it daily/weekly. Be it beast tribes, tomestones (weekly), all the dungeon/instances where you get one loot per week (because you will not get that loot if you did not do it per week) And those that can only play at the weekend are always behind because they have less chances per week to get the loot they need. With tokens they raise their chance because they just get them when running the content anyway. So without tokens they might run it four weekends without the loot they want and have nothing to show at the end while with tokens they might still run that many times but they get a token each time and thus might be able to at least get one piece after those weekends. So winning for them too.

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Yeah but that safety net is a daily thing you now have to do if you want your shinies. Players will not see it as something they don't need, they'll see it as a another method of getting loot, and they'll feel the need to do it anyway. In short, you're making 24-raids a daily thing to do, even if these tokens are "optional". Not doing them would be pretty detrimental. Thus my point about someone who can't play everyday still stands, that player would not be able to get their gear at the same pace as others, which drastically changes how people play 24-raids and their purpose. FFXIV, regarding that aspect, is more about being a weekly thing than a daily one.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

- And its completely more fun to run this content 40x without ever getting that drop that you need? There will be people who dont like the tokens and they simply can throw them away. But I believe that quite a bit of people love to have a way to battle bad RNG. I mean we have tokens for the primals and as far as I know this change was taken quite positive by the playerbase.

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That can already happen right now, not only on 24-raids but also 8-raids normal. Besides, if you take an outliner of the normal distribution as an example, I could take the other extreme with people who get their stuff on their very first run.
Anyway, yes, a progress bar is more bland and boring than a system where you can have these satisfying moments of luck. That's game design 101.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

This solution would be something on top of the normal weekly roll. It would help those unlucky people that would lose the roll against others (as DD) or that never see their gear when they play it. At least with tokens they know that they will get loot x after y runs. It also helps all those with more than one job because you can simply gear two of them. One with the roll that you normaly have and another with the tokens. (At the same time)

I am sorry but I cant see any of your arguments as good ones against these tokens. People that love to run it more than once daily can still do it because the normal rolls still exist, all those that cant play daily are already falling back because they have less chances to get the loot per week and with the greed only option they may get even less chances to get stuff. With tokens they might at least have something after a bit of time. (And honestly people with less time will always be behind, thats the way MMOs functions). And those that dislike such a progess can simply throw the tokens away and do it the normal way.

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So, overall, unless you switch to the all greed system, you won't solve the main issue in JP, you'll increase the number of obtainable equipment per week, and you'll make people feel compeled to do the lastest 24-raid once per day. That changes almost everything to simply try to solve a loot issue.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

You might not like them but these could still be solutions. Nothing will ever be perfect.

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It's not a question of me liking them or not, but here you're changing a lot of things that don't need to be changed. The goal of implementing a new loot system is to solve an issue without bringing new ones or drasically changing what's already working.

One token system that would do exactly that would be this one:
- Switch to all greed to solve the JP issue, the overflowing tanks in queues and people going in with some alt they don't know how to play (or simply don't want to play in 24-raids).
- To then fix the feeling of unfairness from players getting outrolled by others on something they want, add a special token awarded at the end of the run:
-- This token would share the weekly lockout of chests. So you cannot get both a token and a chest loot. Only one of the two.
-- 1 token to buy 1 piece of the player's choice.
-- This token wouldn't have a 100% chance of being awarded. We'd have to run some metrics to see roughly the current average chance of a player getting a specific loot, and adapt that token droprate to it. Overall, it'd probably be an increase in chances of getting something. The rate might be somewhere around 10% to 15%, I guess.
-- It would be given in the same way materials were given upon exiting a dungeon during the Zodiac Brave step of the relic (during the black screen, you'd have the "kathching!" prompt appearing... or not). So, you'd have to roll on the final chest, or not, depending on what you'd want to do: try to get something from the final chest, or try to get the token after leaving the instance.
-- A side effect of this token would be that people won't leave the instance if they didn't get what they wanted on a specific boss, because of the second chance they'd have by completing the instance.

If you want to do a safety net without having to change anything else, while also not making it appear like a simple progress bar, that's the way to do it. This token would have another beneficial side effect in terms of psychology: this final roll on your token would be the thing people focus the most on, leaving their eventual unlucky run behind them (whether the piece didn't drop, or they didn't get a good roll on it and someone else took it). And for the lucky ones to get their token, it'd be a great feeling.

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Originally Posted by Kazgrel

This proposed change is a solution in need of a problem. It’s always made sense to me to run these as the job I’d like to get gear for.

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It makes sense for you but it doesn't make sense for everyone.

I don't really care either way. I tend to run on whichever role lets me queue faster.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Well, to be fair, the reason people are using the class they want to gear up is to an extent caused by the loot system... But the all greed is very much not the solution to people wanting to maximize their chances of getting a certain piece when it does finally drop on the 20th run.

The best idea I've seen is still the idea that if you run the raid a few times during a week without getting anything from the bosses, it would give a token that counts as your weekly drop and could be turned into one piece of gear from the raid.
It would cap the amount of times people have to run it weekly to gear up.

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Oh, I agree. My response was more to correct the previous poster blaming complaints about company seal and glamour for why this changed occurred when it's primarily a JP request—a very flawed solution for everyone else, unfortunately.

As for the idea, I believe I mentioned it myself. Simply take the EX Primal token system and apply it to Alliance. They could either give you a second token each run; allowing them to be exchanged for gear. Or have a single token be rewarded after x amount of runs should you have not received any loot that week. However they went about it, this is far superior to crossing your fingers this third time out of forty runs, you'll roll high and no one else out of seven people wants that Caster coat.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But keeping the current system doesn't solve the issue they have in JP where they have trouble gearing alts since they feel pressured into going in with their main.

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Is that really why they are introducing this change? That's like, the poorest excuse I've ever heard. You don't need to be on your main to complete 24-man raids, nor even to be competitive if that's what's your after. I went in to Rab with trash 310 gear when I was trying to gear up my MCH and still managed to do better than most. You want gear for alt job then get on it and learn, otherwise you don't really need it at all.

I thought for sure that the JP servers go on their mains for the sake of efficiency in 24-man raids and they're just angry because they want to gear their alts that they're not playing and people who play those jobs, that may not even need the gear anymore, just need for 100% RNG sake, especially if they're the only type of job in the party.

For example, one JP player goes in on bard but they want to gear their summoner, they're better at playing bard than summoner. Another JP player goes in on their summoner, has better gear than the Mhach gear, and rolls Need on summoner gear anyways that has dropped simply to either troll or just turn into GC seals. Most of the time, most people in Japan won't speak up about being wronged unless it's called for simply because of the cultural tradition of "don't make trouble for others and become a burden to your team".

does anyone know what the japanese actually think about this change? do they have a discussion about it on the JP board?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I thought for sure that the JP servers go on their mains for the sake of efficiency in 24-man raids and they're just angry because they want to gear their alts that they're not playing and people who play those jobs, that may not even need the gear anymore, just need for 100% RNG sake, especially if they're the only type of job in the party.

For example, one JP player goes in on bard but they want to gear their summoner, they're better at playing bard than summoner. Another JP player goes in on their summoner, has better gear than the Mhach gear, and rolls Need on summoner gear anyways that has dropped simply to either troll or just turn into GC seals. Most of the time, most people in Japan won't speak up about being wronged unless it's called for simply because of the cultural tradition of "don't make trouble for others and become a burden to your team".

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I don't know, I'd like to believe that this is not really why. I really see no justifiable defense. All greed doesn't really help, then you just lose to someone else instead of the SMN in that example. Even going on the actual job it's not guaranteed, the gear could not drop at all or if you have another of the same/similar job to compete with on Need. Like, you're gonna get screwed either way eventually, or just get lucky af with a drop at the right time.

Neither way is an actual solution to the problem. Here is an actual solution: Just add a 3rd item (token) for each party after each boss which can be exchanged for gear of choice. If they make it an item that you have to roll on it would be easy to include it in the weekly reward (like, this "token" is your gear for the week = no more rolls). If someone wants the actual gear that drops then they can roll on it, otherwise you just run a few times until you get a token and then exchange for the gear you want. Couldn't be any worse.

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Originally Posted by Tint

does anyone know what the japanese actually think about this change? do they have a discussion about it on the JP board?

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Yeah I asked for proof before and all I got was an off the wall reply that did not fit what I said.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I thought for sure that the JP servers go on their mains for the sake of efficiency in 24-man raids and they're just angry because they want to gear their alts that they're not playing and people who play those jobs, that may not even need the gear anymore, just need for 100% RNG sake, especially if they're the only type of job in the party.

For example, one JP player goes in on bard but they want to gear their summoner, they're better at playing bard than summoner. Another JP player goes in on their summoner, has better gear than the Mhach gear, and rolls Need on summoner gear anyways that has dropped simply to either troll or just turn into GC seals. Most of the time, most people in Japan won't speak up about being wronged unless it's called for simply because of the cultural tradition of "don't make trouble for others and become a burden to your team".

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sounds like your assuming, also the game does not let you turn in gc seals in current 24 raid. (also be sure to note, weekly lockout when it is new)

For outdated raid you are only rolling need for gc seals/ glams so there should not be an issue going on the job for outdated content. When you are doing an old 24 raid in anything semi current gear, it is a complete pushover making the whole argument nonsense. It is a half bake idea that makes no sense, that really doesn't help anyone.

That's why I was using Mhach as an example because I know that we can't turn anything in for Ivalice as of yet, it'll happen eventually though, no need to be so hostile and defensive over other people's opinion/idea. Like, geez, take a chill pill... :(

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I don't know, I'd like to believe that this is not really why. I really see no justifiable defense. All greed doesn't really help, then you just lose to someone else instead of the SMN in that example. Even going on the actual job it's not guaranteed, the gear could not drop at all or if you have another of the same/similar job to compete with on Need. Like, you're gonna get screwed either way eventually, or just get lucky af with a drop at the right time.

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Right, I want to believe it too. It's just a strange thing for one part of the community to request upon when the other half never really experienced or voiced out concerns over need/greed in Alliance raids beforehand. It seemed completely out of left field. But, like I said beforehand, that was mostly based off of talking with someone who lived in Japan for a long time, of course, the culture and viewpoints may have changed as it is what usually happens over the course of time.

Honestly, we may never know the true reasoning as to why, especially if no one on the JP forums is talking about it and whatnot.

They just need to get rid of gear drops and give each person a token that counts for that weeks gear piece at end of the raid. That solve the problem no more rolling and no more running same raid over and over to get piece you want. Also some roll need on items that may be worse than the gear they have now just for the glamour.

A quick glance with the terrible translator known as Google shows no obvious signs of discontent within the JP community. I only found one recent thread, though. Majority of comments seemed confused/against it.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I misunderstood that you wanted to also keep the current system. My bad.

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Well it would help the JP playerbase the most. They can go into this on their main character, roll need on anything that their main needs and greed on things that their other jobs need and maybe they get lucky. But thanks to the tokens they could get at least one loot (if RNG is really horrible and you dont get a drop per week) and if RNG is fine you can have one piece the normal way and one gear piece for a second job. This way they can gear up at least two jobs at the same time (which is more than they can do even with all greed). With all greed you might still not get anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

It's not a question of me liking them or not, but here you're changing a lot of things that don't need to be changed. The goal of implementing a new loot system is to solve an issue without bringing new ones or drasically changing what's already working.

One token system that would do exactly that would be this one:
- Switch to all greed to solve the JP issue, the overflowing tanks in queues and people going in with some alt they don't know how to play (or simply don't want to play in 24-raids).
- To then fix the feeling of unfairness from players getting outrolled by others on something they want, add a special token awarded at the end of the run:
-- This token would share the weekly lockout of chests. So you cannot get both a token and a chest loot. Only one of the two.
-- 1 token to buy 1 piece of the player's choice.
-- This token wouldn't have a 100% chance of being awarded. We'd have to run some metrics to see roughly the current average chance of a player getting a specific loot, and adapt that token droprate to it. Overall, it'd probably be an increase in chances of getting something. The rate might be somewhere around 10% to 15%, I guess.
-- It would be given in the same way materials were given upon exiting a dungeon during the Zodiac Brave step of the relic (during the black screen, you'd have the "kathching!" prompt appearing... or not). So, you'd have to roll on the final chest, or not, depending on what you'd want to do: try to get something from the final chest, or try to get the token after leaving the instance.
-- A side effect of this token would be that people won't leave the instance if they didn't get what they wanted on a specific boss, because of the second chance they'd have by completing the instance.

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The current system also worked just fine for a lot of people yet they still changed it to something that might only work out for some players.

Your token system would just put another RNG layer on top of everything. Players needs to be either lucky to get a gear set or they need to be lucky to get a token. This again makes it not fair to people since some could get their token on the first run, while another still runs it 20x a week with no drop at all. (RNG can be horrible) Its a really small safety net.

What does this do: For those that want something on their main they might still lose their once nearly certain roll to someone else. And they might not get the token at the end too. For those that gear up other jobs they will still have to roll against more people and since the token is not guaranteed people will still roll on more stuff to get at least something. Maybe with a small chance they might get a token at the end but thanks to bad luck they did not get any loot from the chests and no token. So imo that token barely changes anything. Some might have more luck thanks to that but most of us would probably still be out of luck.

At least with my token (or you could also give one 100% token per week) you will get at least something after running it 7 times. Unlike your system where you can run it daily and get nothing for the week. Since its seemingly just catch up gear for SE, I am also not sure why people should run this such a long time if they have bad luck. IMO it would be better if they have a safety net where you get at least one piece of gear for certain per week.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I thought for sure that the JP servers go on their mains for the sake of efficiency in 24-man raids and they're just angry because they want to gear their alts that they're not playing and people who play those jobs, that may not even need the gear anymore, just need for 100% RNG sake, especially if they're the only type of job in the party.

For example, one JP player goes in on bard but they want to gear their summoner, they're better at playing bard than summoner. Another JP player goes in on their summoner, has better gear than the Mhach gear, and rolls Need on summoner gear anyways that has dropped simply to either troll or just turn into GC seals. Most of the time, most people in Japan won't speak up about being wronged unless it's called for simply because of the cultural tradition of "don't make trouble for others and become a burden to your team".

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But if they are truly all about playing a job great to not let the team down I am quite sure that they would at least be able to play each job decently. ALso if they are all about team play I am quite sure that most of them would not roll need on something just to troll. So if a JP summoner rolls on need they migh just need this for glamour and honestly seeing how big glamour is in the game, that would be a sensible reason. Especially since you can gear up your characters through other means. (And the all greed options makes older raids even worse because you can roll on anything without a lockout and cant even try to get the gear you need by going into it with the job you want. So All greed is worse if the lockout is gone)

Also lets look it at a different angle: Someone goes into this as a tank main, they need the gear because they did not play for a while and want to catch up. They have a longer queue time and a much harder job than at least most of the DDs. Finally the tank chest drops but thanks to the all greed option he now looses his gear piece to a DD that just need it for another job that they might not even play that much. Thats just completely bad too.

Before the change you had less people to roll against as a DD, no other person if you are tank and only one other as a healer. Now you might have 7 other people when the gear finally drops. You simply could increase the chance to own the gear by going into this with the job you need it for. If you want to gear up those jobs I would believe that you would want to play this in other content, so one should be at least comfortable with it.

Now everyone might lose it to the one DD that was death nearly the complete run and that truly just trolled or misclicked.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

That's why I was using Mhach as an example because I know that we can't turn anything in for Ivalice as of yet, it'll happen eventually though, no need to be so hostile and defensive over other people's opinion/idea. Like, geez, take a chill pill... :(

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I dont really see how Vstar was hostile in their post? They might not have seen the Mhach part (I overread that too since most of the discussion in this thread is about the current raid) but everything else was not that aggressive towards you. The argument which she called nonsense was about the one that SE made, the same with the idea of it. So not attack towards you either.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The current system also worked just fine for a lot of people yet they still changed it to something that might only work out for some players.

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For JP players, it didn't work so well apparently.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Your token system would just put another RNG layer on top of everything. Players needs to be either lucky to get a gear set or they need to be lucky to get a token. This again makes it not fair to people since some could get their token on the first run, while another still runs it 20x a week with no drop at all. (RNG can be horrible) Its a really small safety net.

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It's not another "RNG layer". It's designed to increase the overall odds of getting something. That's not a layer you have to go through, it's a bonus chance. It's not dragging your chances down, it raises them up.
And yes, it's still RNG. But that's already what the current system is about. You can run dozens of 24-raids an never see what you want even be in a chest, or see your co-healer get it when it finally comes. Yet, there's no outcry about it. RNG is not something that need to change. RNG is fine.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

What does this do: For those that want something on their main they might still lose their once nearly certain roll to someone else. And they might not get the token at the end too. For those that gear up other jobs they will still have to roll against more people and since the token is not guaranteed people will still roll on more stuff to get at least something. Maybe with a small chance they might get a token at the end but thanks to bad luck they did not get any loot from the chests and no token. So imo that token barely changes anything. Some might have more luck thanks to that but most of us would probably still be out of luck.

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You can already lose what you want to someone else. The very exception being tanks. And yes, my suggestion doesn't change the overall odds that we currently have. You have a global reduction of your chances due to the number of player being able to roll increasing, but you then have a bonus chance which balance everything to roughly the current chances of you getting something (tanks excluded, obviously). "Bad luck" happens, that's true. But good luck does happen too. You cannot use one extreme part of the normal distribution while putting the other end aside.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

At least with my token (or you could also give one 100% token per week) you will get at least something after running it 7 times. Unlike your system where you can run it daily and get nothing for the week. Since its seemingly just catch up gear for SE, I am also not sure why people should run this such a long time if they have bad luck. IMO it would be better if they have a safety net where you get at least one piece of gear for certain per week.

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Again, RNG is fine. Especially in games of that genre.
Your system changes a lot of things that don't need to be changed. We don't need twice as much pieces of gear per week. We don't need the 24-raid to become a daily content that some players won't be able to do. Besides, it doesn't even solve the issue about chest loot in JP. They'll just have a pity system, but still have trouble getting gear from chests. Which is the very reason why SE wants to change the current system!
Mine keep the weekly limit of 1 piece per week, solves the JP issue, keep the overall odds that we currently have, let people play whatever they want to play, flatten the queue times, doesn't give an advantage to some jobs for no reason, and doesn't ask people to run this content on a daily basis.

We don't need a 100% reliable way of getting loot.
RNG is fine.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

For JP players, it didn't work so well apparently.

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Yet someone posted a bit over our posts that they used google translate on one JP thread and there people seems to be confused about the change too. SE might have used reason x for that change but if its really good or even wanted is something we dont know 100%. I mean they went ahead and wrote why Diadem 1 failed and that they listened to player feedback and ideas and created....Diadem 2.0. Which was probably death even faster. (Which a lot of RNG on top of RNG which was surrounded by RNG)

In the end this thread shows that at least a big amount of people on the NA forums dislike such a chance. Heck even some of the more famous streamers are not understanding that change at all. Should they really "help" their JP playerbase, which is the minority and maybe anger a lot more subcribers on the NA and EU side? Why not let it be that way and just add something good for all on top of that? (And I still cant understand how they dont just level up all their secondary jobs with dungeons drops, older tome stones and stuff like that..if they are only comfortable playing 24 man raids with their mains they will probably use those with savage too..so why need to be up to date with every job?)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

snip

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Honestly, I don't really agree with the All Greed nonsense either, so my post was mostly just speculation on the JP end based on feedback from someone that's live in Japan for a while. I realize that times will and have probably changed over the course of several years. I don't know about them being all to perform at every single job to it's perfection level though. I think that might be leaning towards too much of a generalized assumption since there are people that may only like to specialize in one or a select few of jobs, but not everything unless you're a perfectionist, I guess. And that's not entirely exclusive towards the JP side, there's plenty of NA/EU players that tend to only dip their feet in a few trades at best.

And thanks for the clarification, it's the just the way she/he worded it that came off that way towards the end.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Honestly, I don't really agree with the All Greed nonsense either, so my post was mostly just speculation on the JP end based on feedback from someone that's live in Japan for a while. I realize that times will and have probably changed over the course of several years. I don't know about them being all to perform at every single job to it's perfection level though. I think that might be leaning towards too much of a generalized assumption since there are people that may only like to specialize in one or a select few of jobs, but not everything unless you're a perfectionist, I guess. And that's not entirely exclusive towards the JP side, there's plenty of NA/EU players that tend to only dip their feet in a few trades at best.

And thanks for the clarification, it's the just the way she/he worded it that came off that way towards the end.

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I feel that might be from a bias you have of me, but alleo is right. I was referring to SE's logic. Different argument, different tones etc, I do not hold grudges. I really do not make reference to other bias or threads unless someone is really pushing me to do so.

It should be this simple, for outdated raids just go the job you need the gear for (i/e glam) No one cares about being perfect there and current gear in outdated raids make them a pushover. No one cares about seal drama or whatever else, just hit greed like second nature. For current, you have a few things to be restrictive. 1. weekly lockout, so people are not going to be hitting that need unless it is really important to them glam or upgrade, same for greed. Seals can't be claimed when it is current. So ... i really do not get why SE is doing this.

A few better solutions would be making a currency that GOES IN CURRENCY TAB (so sick of currency inventory bloat) or make a 3rd button, need, need for off spec (only lights up if you meet level requirement) then greed. This greed wide... really does not help anyone.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I feel that might be from a bias you have of me, but alleo is right. I was referring to SE's logic. Different argument, different tones etc, I do not hold grudges. I really do not make reference to other bias or threads unless someone is really pushing me to do so.

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I don't really have a bias of you because I hardly even know you all that well as a poster, but it seems like every time I open my mouth with an opinion of my own I'm either flaming, insulting, or being rude to you if I respond to it, in your own words, half of the time. So, basically, I feel like anytime you respond to me, I'm going to get slandered somehow without even really trying to upset/offend you intentionally if I even think about typing a response....or just get blasted into oblivion that I don't know what I'm talking about which just makes me less inclined to take people like that seriously. No one likes getting talked down by "no u" fallacies, and that's just a general thing I believe.

I wouldn't call it bias so much as a fear of being bullied by a single poster no matter what I do, and I've barely been on the OF so much until recently this month.

considering how bad it already is to get your weekly loot from the 8 man story raid... and there your item has a 100% drop chance and one fight doesn't take longer than 10 minutes.

a 24 man raid is around 45 minutes and the loot table is huuuuge.

this change is horrible!

i want to mention that the 24 man raid and the relic quest grind were both my favorite things to do in FF14 - thanks to this change and the awesome design of Eureka it seems they have killed both of my favorite content. yaaaaaay

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Originally Posted by Remus

Just... why? If people want to get gear on their sub jobs they should run it on that class. Why should everyone suffer because some people don't want to run it on the class they are trying to get loot for? I really don't understand the choices they make sometimes and I hope they don't implement this.

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I agree. If they do this, this will make me unsub. Last......straw

When I first read this post I thought it was a response to people suggesting this on the forums...

I didn’t think that the game designers were actually stupid enough to think that Greed only in 24 man content was a good idea...

After checking out the letter from the producers, I am completely dismayed, sometimes it takes all week just to win a need roll on the item you want.

When I first read this post I thought it was a response to people suggesting this on the forums...

I didn’t think that the game designers were actually stupid enough to think that Greed only in 24 man content was a good idea...

After checking out the letter from the producers, I am completely dismayed, sometimes it takes all week just to win a need roll on the item you want.

i still don't have my loot from o1 normal mode, despite the fact that i am grinding this since tuesday and have (nearly) instant invites as a tank... lockout is still in place and not everyone is rolling against me, but it's still hard to win the roll.

i am okay with that in regards to the normal mode raid, especially since with the 100% drop rate you could easily form a party and everyone gets their loot after a few runs... but no way will i run the 24 man raid more than once a week!

How much Samurai, Ninja, Monk, and Dragoon gear hits the floor during the 1 drop a week stage of these runs? How many players who could need (under current content drops) have to run 2, 3, 5, 8, 10, or even 20 runs to get the gear they need because the drops aren't reflecting the party composition or even the entire raid composition? I can recall runs of Rabanastre where 4 DRG belts dropped without even a single DRG in the party. How about when 7 PGL/MNK/SAM items all hit the floor as no one in the alliance was playing or gearing those classes?

Perhaps a rethink of the RNG factor vs. party composition could be useful and keep the old Need/Greed system as well? I would rather folks who actually play a class be rewarded for their doing so with drops that can be needed upon and acquired for their use. Lets reward folks for the classes they play, not punish them and give perks to the others who aren't playing the class they want gear for, hmm?

If they do implement this, support classes could simply boycott the content and make those other classes wait hours or days to queue.

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Originally Posted by Ixianna

If they do implement this, support classes could simply boycott the content and make those other classes wait hours or days to queue.

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Kinda my thoughts as well. I think I've got maybe two drops from the current 24 man raid on my WHM. I've seen maybe four total but lost out the other times to the one other healer in the the party. I've also had runs where every piece that dropped was for melee dps and runs where the same piece drops multiple times. Long story short its already hard to get gear from a 24 man raids competing only against the RNG and one other person. Now I not only have to compete with the other healer (guaranteed every run vs tanks or dps at least having the chance to be the only one who can use a drop in the party) but every person who might want to gear their healer without having to actually do the work? Tsk. If you want the gear, do the job.

It would serve them right if tanks and healers just decided they didn't want the responsibility either and let the queue times skyrocket. Or ya know I just stop resurrecting any dps in my party that is screwing up mechanics and making my life hard while also greeding on the gear I need. I don't see this causing anything but irritation and strife. Their reasoning of 'but they had to run it multiple times to gear secondary jobs' doesn't make sense because this sort of system will likely only make that worse. Not only will people on their main role be struggling to gear but the people trying to gear alt jobs will also be rolling the dice against far more people each time the gear they want drops. I don't know. I've always loved the 24 man raids and was looking forward to the next installment but this makes me not want to bother at all.

This just seems to be a bad idea...
But, of course, people in general don't like change.

If this goes through, I guess we'll just see how well it goes over.

I like the ideas people are throwing out about token systems of some type.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

still in shock they do a change for one user base.. isn't that racist?
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No, but possibly biased.