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Originally Posted by Sylvina
I feel like, if this trend were so pervasive, I would have seen it at least once in my 2 years of playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
Most people just “deal with” the idle healer or tank continuously in tank stance doing nothing (heck, there was a PLD in one of my Rabanastre runs that was just auto-attacking every boss, never bothering to actually tank when the MT died and the boss ran around smacking people, and people said nothing about it). Rarely do they ever speak up.
It's past time, Yoshi-P...
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11-21-2017, 08:10 AMHyoMinPark
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11-21-2017, 08:21 AMakaneakkiSince you do it so often, why not show us proof while you at it?:) I have played since 2013, so I would like to see you backup this, while I can backup proof of lazy players expecting ME to play good and they aren't trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvina
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11-21-2017, 08:25 AMmiraidensetsuWOW! 6K DPS!? More than a good DPS player?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
I want to be your friend. Can you tell me how you achieved that many DPS as WHM? -
11-21-2017, 08:31 AMTaikaWHM skills have a huge AoE potency (Holy 100-200 potency and Aero III 50 potency + 40 potency tick; whereas BLMs Fire II is 80 potency and Flare 80-260 potency), so if a healer is good at optimising their healing (spending as many cooldowns as possible on DPS and as little as possible on healing abilities), it's quite normal to bypass actual DPS players on dungeon trash pulls with Aero III and Holy spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
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11-21-2017, 08:51 AMmiraidensetsuOn the other hand, you don't said anything about those DPS that don't help healers to keep the party alive dodging mechanics or refuse to use the aggro drop abilities to help the tank to keep aggro, steals agro of him or simply pull for him. Are those DPS contributing like they should as a party member? And how about those DPS that don't use their skills to help, for instance, a SMN that outright refuses to raise a fallen member or that BLM that refuses to give some mana to an healer that's under 10% MP? Are they dragging everyone down as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
If so, why aren't you demanding that level of groupwork from DPS as well? Or it's ok to be the "princess DPS"? -
11-21-2017, 09:03 AMTaikaI think it's fairly self evident that if someone wants tanks and healers to contribute in DPS because they think that every party member should do their best for the party, they also want DDs to avoid AoEs, RDMs and SMNs helping with raises when needed, BRDs buffing group DPS with Requiem and so on and so on...Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
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11-21-2017, 09:10 AMmiraidensetsuI agree that Aero III, Holy and Assize are powerful spells. But, sorry. Not powerful enough to pull off 6K DPS. I think you're overestimating these skills potency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
Also, if the proper DPS jobs pulls off their AoE abilities, they can pass easily that number. Alas, BLM don't have just Fire II as AoE. They have also Blizzard II, Thunder II (that's AoE DOT), Freeze, Flare, Thunder IV (also AoE DOT) and even Foul. And a good BLM does 5~5.5K DPS on end-game content. -
11-21-2017, 09:26 AMmiraidensetsuNot that obvious. Maybe that DPS wants do be carried on the back while healers and tanks does all the job. You never know, since everyone turns a blind eye on poor DPS performance if it's not too obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
And DPS contributing with buffs or heals or raises is so rare for me that i make sure to commend any DPS who does that. Is so rare that I even find a good run if both DPS just don't eat crap and do enough damage. But, I never had an static, all my experience on party was from duty finder. -
11-21-2017, 09:30 AMTaikaYou were saying?Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
https://i.imgur.com/YUlwIrn.jpg
Edit: On the video on which I saw that pull, the pull lasts 1 min 11 seconds, WHM DPS peaks at 8.5k and is still almost 6k (5938) when the pull is finished. -
11-21-2017, 10:07 AMZfzI have seen two 6k WHMs in Skalla just this past weekend on trash pulls. Didn't bother to check their gear because I just assumed they're mostly 340. I've pulled 10k on trash in Skalla myself as RDM when my plan (Embolden+Manification+going in with 100/100 mana) line up with the tank's plan (Skalla still doesn't seem to have a meta strategy yet on the JP side of DF) with 310 weapon and 319 item level, so I didn't think a WHM with 6k AOE was worth checking out the gear...Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
That said, I agree that 6k is quite some feat in Skalla as most healer will not hit 6k in DF because many seem to put more emphasis on healing the tank in mass pulls. -
11-21-2017, 10:20 AMAyer2015The forums are rarely reflective of the majority player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
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11-21-2017, 10:35 AMSebazySome figures:Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
Regarding the large trash pull leading to The Old one I peak at ~12k DPS over 30 seconds if you chop out the pull. Include the pull and mopping up the stragglers, it's around 7-8k over a minute. Want an easier pull to DPS in? The large Salt Swallow+larvae again in Skalla, I can consistently sustain over 16k dps for that pull which with most roulettes is around 20 to 30 seconds for me. Across the entire dungeon? I'm usually pulling around 3.3k in Skalla, I've never really found a groove to hit the nigh 4k mark that I could in Temple.
WHM DPS can be incredible (and on a side note, War DPS even more so if the group can mow large pulls down fast enough). -
11-21-2017, 10:46 AMLaylaTsarraNo they aren't... and if you pay attention to these threads you'll see that there are career posters in them who respond with the same comments over and over again. The actual world of DF is nothing like what they try to portray here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
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11-21-2017, 10:48 AMakaneakkiPost proof it happens often as you claim it to be. YOu been saying it all the time, yet to see proof, go ahead and show us.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra
I've witness 14k smn on the big pull after 4-5 adds in skalla. The very first ones, then you have the horde of blue fish adds (forgot their names). WHM who was there told me he did 10k too.Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
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11-21-2017, 10:54 AMTaikaNah, truth is rarely interesting, I'm going with her conspiracy theory about a secret society of forum posters constantly working together to build a deceptive picture of in game Duty Finder. To what purpose, you ask? Must have something to do with the goblin cheese illuminati.Quote:
Originally Posted by akaneakki
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11-21-2017, 11:00 AMakaneakkiHonestly I wouldn't be surprised if anti parser people or anti ''get better etc'' players would team up and just falsely make up something in a group together. But again, that's maybe how far some people would go. You know, like that guy who said ''f_ck yes'' to winning susano mount and got 24 hours bann after, since he won the mount and someone WITHOUT PARSER reported him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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11-21-2017, 11:26 AMKacho_NachoHoly crow! I had no idea white mage could burst so well. Looking forward to doing this too. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-21-2017, 11:47 AMHyoMinParkYou completely missed what I was saying: I’ve never seen that type of behavior described in-game. In 2 years of playing, never seen it. If such a trend was as pervasive in-game as that poster was claiming, then why haven’t I seen it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayer2015
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Originally Posted by Sylvina
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Originally Posted by Sylvina
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11-21-2017, 01:39 PMBourne_EndeavorI think Taika and Sebazy already covered it rather eloquently. I will say it's pull size dependent. On the mega pull in Temple of the Fist, I've broke 10k on SAM and a friend did the same on RDM. So relative to that 6k isn't nearly as high. This all being said, I don't necessarily expect numbers these high going into dungeons. That doesn't mean they shouldn't aim for decent outputs.Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
Right? WHM is an absolute monster if the tank pulls everything. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho
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11-21-2017, 07:51 PMShurrikhanQuote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
I would LOVE to have the ability to perform additional groupwork as DPS.For one, they would be, and such refusals are usually only ever given in response to a much stronger prior refusal -- in these cases, typically, the healer's refusal to DPS or use Lucid Dreaming.
Responsibilities at present: Gathering, focusing, emergency peeling, support-function rotations, tracking Healer/Tank CDs only in combination with support-function rotations... and rotating properly. Which all, given how shallow content tends to be and how overtuned tanks are, typically amounts to just... rotating properly.
By all means, bring it on. Let Diversion be an actual diversion. Let Goad goad things (enemies, one would assume) significantly. Let me CC things again. I would enjoy this game hugely more if there was more "cross-role" interaction (non-tunnelvisioned toolkits and community perceptions). -
11-21-2017, 08:09 PMmiraidensetsuSight... In the end you're refering to some thrash pull. But okay, you proved yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
But that bard doing just 1.2K DPS tho... -
11-21-2017, 08:23 PMmiraidensetsu3.3K considering the whole dungeon or trial is what I consider what a top-tier WHM with good party does. I don't get to see the parses from trash pulls, since my main source of information is that site of logs and the parses are always from all the duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-21-2017, 08:31 PMTaikaI'm pretty sure Bourne_Endeavor was referring to a trash pull too, not claiming of pulling 6k DPS in a boss fight or for a whole dungeon...And since me and you were talking about Holy+Aero III+Assize which are what WHMs use in trash pulls. You were the one saying Holy and Aero won't reach 6k DPS, and me and others showed you that they do - and that excellent WHM players such as Sebazy can push much higher than that. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
Edit: Maybe you got this already and there's a language barrier or something? If that's true then sorry for double explaining... -
11-21-2017, 09:45 PMTridusThe Alchemist Guild doesn't want you to know that Ether causes autism in Eorzean children because they use substandard Goblin cheese to cut costs. They're the ones working with the Goblins to create these DF rumors in order to keep our attention away from the REAL conspiracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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11-21-2017, 10:43 PMHyoMinParkThe initial post talking about 6k DPS was about a trash pull. Pretty sure that was clarified several posts ago by Bourne_Endeavor as well, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
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11-22-2017, 12:51 AMhynaku
Healers should only focus on healing its dps job to do most the damage on tank to hold the agro. Every time see whm use holy there is a delay before they can use a healing spell. So if a tank takes hard hit when there using holy they will die before they get chance to be healed. Happened to many times in parties been in and then group wipes.
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11-22-2017, 01:03 AMShurrikhanThat is absolutely untrue. The only "delays" occur after instant casts. As with any and all casts in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
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11-22-2017, 01:22 AMThoro39
The Tank can't take a "hard hit" when the trashmobs are stunned through sheer holy spamming.
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11-22-2017, 01:59 AMJijifliBenedictionQuote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
The Stun from Holy
Tetragrammaton
The tank has COOLDOWNS
Assize Heals too.
Honestly WHM are the one's that can aoe abuse the best because they have so many abilities they can use to get away with it. -
11-22-2017, 02:24 AMakaneakkiYou are so wrong on many levels, it's untrue what you say. You have tetra to instant heal, benediction (no you dont save this for boss fights only) The ''delay'' you speak of only after a instant cast and its with every spell in the whole gane. You clearly dont use WHM the right way, the way you explain things. This is like an issue too, too many ''only healing'' players barely know how to even play their class.Quote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
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11-22-2017, 02:31 AMdotsforlife
It's appalling to see so many players play half-assed or spout nonsense with half baked knowledge. I sincerely hope this isn't a reflection of how they live their lives irl. A person won't get very far that way.
It's one thing to be uneducated on a class. It's another to be ignorant to it. -
11-22-2017, 02:40 AMBourne_EndeavorHoly -> (Swiftcast) -> Aero III -> (Assize) (Presence of Mind) -> Stone IV spam -> Cure II -> Divine Bension -> TetragrammatonQuote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
I can also intentionally allow a tank's HP to plummet and use Benediction but the above will always be available for every pull. Either you had a poor WHM or the tank wasn't using their CDs efficiently. In the latter case, my job isn't to compensate for your deficiencies. -
11-22-2017, 02:41 AMFyceIn 8300 hours of game time, I have yet to see a SMN/RDM who deliberatly refused to raise because "it's not my job", or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation, or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job". Even using enmity control abilities is argued for optimization way more often than "it's not my job to manage enmity" (but even then, we are talking about being active as much as possible. Taking a single cross skill to press once in a while has nothing to do with the point of sharing team effort when it comes to simply being active as much as possible).Quote:
Originally Posted by miraidensetsu
I'm not saying that they don't exist. But the number of these DPS compared to the number of princess healers/tanks is not even close to being comparable.
Your use of "whataboutism" (ie: "What about the others!") completly falls flat. Besides, the behavior of other players doesn't justify yours. Saying "I won't DPS as a healer because one day I saw a SMN who refused to raise!" is absolutly stupid. -
11-22-2017, 02:55 AMKazgrelTranslation: HEALERS R 4 HEALZ ONREEEEEEEEEEEEQuote:
Originally Posted by hynaku
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11-22-2017, 02:56 AMTridusI have. They're outnumbered by the ones that do use it, and the ones that don't use it because they're not used to paying attention to the rest of the party and don't realize someone is dead immediately, but they do exist. I don't lump the "its not my job" and the "I didn't notice someone was dead" people into the same bucket though, because if you only ever play DPS it's honestly pretty easy to not pay much attention to party status. Us healers are watching it like a hawk so it's second nature to just keep doing that when we play RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
I've seen this too, but only once, and it was an RDM. PLD players vary in how often they'll use Clemency if the healers are up, but ones that just refuse if it's that or wipe are virtually unheard of.Quote:
or a PLD/RDM not using a Clemency or Vercure for the same reason in a clutch situation
While nobody says this, I can forgive people who read it into the actions of every DPS who decides that it's more important to finish their cast than it is to get out of the way of the giant death beam.Quote:
or even a DPS who'd say "I won't avoid AoEs because it's not my job".
THAT I hear all the time. It's seriously annoying.Quote:
"it's not my job to manage enmity"
There's plenty of bad habits and attitudes to go around amongst all the roles. This "it's my right to be idle!" one happens to be unique to healers, though. Acknowledging that other roles have their own issues doesn't justify healers doing the same. -
11-22-2017, 03:07 AMTridusIt's called the Dunning–Kruger effect. Accurate self-evaluation requires a certain amount of skill and knowledge in the thing you're trying to evaluate. That is: you have to know a certain amount about healing to be able to evaluate how good a healer you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by dotsforlife
People who lack that base knowledge have no way to assess their own skills accurately, and usually mistakenly assume they are far more skilled/knowledgeable than they truly are. Thus, they honestly believe they're really good healers and that they know what they're talking about. This applies across everything humans do, and all of us are susceptible to it. It's a skill in itself to have the self-awareness to realize that you don't know anything and that your self-evaluations are wrong (hence philosophical quotes like "The only thing I know, is that I know nothing").
Or the colloquial: "You don't know what you don't know."
(Interestingly, competent people were found in the same studies to underestimate their own abilities. That leads to a situation where they don't understand that things are easy for them because they're highly skilled/knowledgeable, and instead think that those things must be easy for everyone.) -
11-22-2017, 04:58 AMXerek
I think this is drifting off the original topic. The idea originally seemed to focus on what is creating the mindset and meta. If a healer prefers to primarily heal...let me phrase this carefully...it's alright for them to feel that way. The problem is, FF XIV's current build simply isn't built that way. This is the meta the OP is referring to. The current idea is to actually require very little tanking/healing out of tanks/healers so that players of all skill levels can accomplish their primary goal in casual content. However, as already noted multiple times in this thread, that means that tanks and healers who are really good at their jobs are really *not* going to be tanks or healers. They are DPS with tank/heal support skills.
Some people don't like it. I liked the idea of wedging some damage into my healing in the past, and using the dreaded Cleric Stance dance. Back then, I still felt primarily like a healer. If I had, say, 75% time spend on heals/buffs and 25% on DPS, I'd be happy. I'd feel like a healer optimizing my playstyle by sneaking some DPS in. That's...not what I feel now. I feel like a sub-par DPS (I play AST and so literally have a DoT, a single-target and an AoE) that also heals a little here or there. I fully understand and empathize with healers that feel the same. At the start we were asked if we wanted to tank, heal or DPS. In reality, the choice now is do you want to DPS...and tank a little, DPS...and heal a little or just plain DPS 100%? And if you don't want to primarily DPS? Well, currently there is nothing for you in FF XIV.
Problem is, what can you do about it? Obvious solution would be for things to hit harder, prompting tanks and healers to work harder as tanks and healers...leaving less time for DPS. However, that comes with problems. First, there are fewer tanks and healers in the game. Ramp up the difficulty significantly, and you might lose some. Then there will be the outcry against tanks and healers when implemented and all of a sudden the run is rougher, along with complaints from people who would still expect a ton of DPS out of tanks and healers despite the change. There would be harassment and shaming, and eventually cries to nerf the content. Essentially, the damage is already done, and that makes it a lot harder to right things. As such, I don't see SE doing a thing about it. They're happy with things the way they are now, where everyone is primarily a DPS, because it allows players of a wider range of skills to play and clear. If you're looking for a role where DPS isn't you're primary focus...well...you won't find one. Not in FF XIV.
To those complaining about people not wanting to DPS. Please take a deep breath and try to be understanding. Things have gotten nasty in here. Keep in mind it comes down to playstyle. Some people would rather tank or heal. Some people might not want or like to DPS. That is playstyle preference, *not* laziness. They have every right to be frustrated by the game the way it is now and the expectations that is placing on people. Try and put yourself in their shoes before blasting them. Try to understand their motivations. No, I don't think a majority of them are advocating healing for 15% of the time and doing nothing else is ideal. They'd love to have things to do the other 85% of the time. Just...not DPS. And that is where this entire thing stems from. -
11-22-2017, 05:32 AMEnlaThis, Holy has a Stun affect as well so it's an absolutely ESSENTIAL part of any WHM's damage mitigation kit. In fact Holy has saved many a run for me where the tank was convinced cooldowns were some type of venereal disease and took so much damage that I had barely enough time to register what was happening. Holy essentially allows a redo of the start of a pull, giving you precious seconds to top the tank and throw in some DPS whilst giving yourself time to assess the situation. Are there healers who still use the spell like it's 2.55 and the nerf never happened? Yes, but those are just bad players over all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
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11-22-2017, 06:18 AMmiraidensetsuWhat I said is more like "and how about you, DPS that refuses to help or even get out of the crap?" and "why aren't the bad DPS being also called?" than what you think I said. Are you one of those DPS that refuses to help? No? You shouldn't be so mad, I'm not talking about you. But if you're one of those DPS and don't want to admit it, you should start to think what YOU are bringing to the party before point your finger at Tanks or Healers. Or you can just continue on this drama and enjoy the queue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Wich one are you? Your conscience will tell. I can't respond that because I can't remember to be on the same party as you and I don't know how do you play. About my play style, my conscience is clear. I bring the best judgment I can make either to keep everyone alive as to make the most damage I can (including when begin to cast what). -
11-22-2017, 06:18 AMStanelis
The issue is mostly that FFXIV's jobs, roles and content are designed to be far too "simple" on a macro design standpoint. Basically the only way you're interacting with monsters is by damaging them while avoiding damage via movements. In serious content there are no coherent use of interrupts, crowd controls (even though those aspects were used in 2.0) or content designed to measure the ability of a tank to get asap the aggro of mobs and to hold it (such as what was expected of tank on twintania on T5 with the snakes).
Therefore, as the tanking jobs (and to a lesser extent the healing jobs, as the healing role is little more than buffing and healing people through direct and indirect heals, aside from DPS) and the tanking role is so simple, SE had to find a way to insuflate artificial difficulty to the roles (just as artificial difficulty is added to content through DPS checks), and that artificial difficulty is the requirement to DPS for healers and tank (that is intended to mask the flaws of the current game design).
Bottom line is you cannot expect a change in the current tanking and healing design unless SE decides to overhaul its game design, but for some reason I don't really see that happening anytime soon.