Tank dps harrasment

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

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I don't understand why you posted this image. Do you think I need it ?

I also maintain that skill > gear. And the example you took is fallacious. People can clear A9s now not only because of gear, but level gap and echo as well. At least use relevant content.
Moreover, the output damage of a skilled person vs average/ below average is so great that it outweights their gear. This is what i mean by skill > gear. And don't use more fallacious examples by taking extrems gear gaps.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

Wrong moves, Ya but basic rotation, tanks have 3 combos, for there primary rotations.
We are talking about Tanking. Outside of overpower what Positionals, What DPS spells, (I don't know anything about DRK at all),Sorry as a warrior MP not an issue. PLD Self cures and flash oo Not DPS... Having to much TP Means Your spamming overpower to much. Being AFK is being afk.

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I thought it was obvious that I was speaking generally about different visually discernible signs for all classes, but maybe I should have been more clear. I know that you and this thread are primarily talking about tanking.

But if you want a tank-specific example: A tank spamming nothing but their enmity combo even when there's no one in the group remotely close to overtaking their threat or otherwise camping their tank stance when they have no real reason to.

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It's not or people wouldn't be able to clear turn 9 still but GEAR is greater then > skill.
As soon as people over gear for content you get to skip phases of battle. This isn't skill this is gear being greater then content > skill.

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Good gear doesn't automatically breeze people through tough content by itself. Skipping phases in relevant content still takes both good knowledge of the fight and knowledge of how to play your class well, i.e. "skill". If it were primarily based on gear, Savage wouldn't always have such a low clear rate. By your logic, by the time most players were in full tome gear, Savage clears should skyrocket.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Report. Square had a strict policy about any add-ons. People will learn when they get banned.

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FFLogs isn't an add-on. You could argue that information on the site is obtained using a parser, but that's a tenuous position at best.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

As soon as people over gear for content you get to skip phases of battle. This isn't skill this is gear being greater then content > skill.

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people are already skipping phases when not overgeared. of course only the skilled ones...

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

FFLogs isn't an add-on. You could argue that information on the site is obtained using a parser, but that's a tenuous position at best.

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There's many who believe calc.exe that comes with Windows is a bannable 3rd party program.

Though I haven't heard of tanks being booted for low dps. If they need that much more DPS, why bring a tank?

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Report. Square had a strict policy about any add-ons. People will learn when they get banned.

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If they don't ban painfully obvious bots, they're not going to ban people for using parsers that can't even be identified short of people blatantly saying they're using one.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

If they don't ban painfully obvious bots, they're not going to ban people for using parsers that can't even be identified short of people blatantly saying they're using one.

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I've only heard of them banning people who directly state that they're using one while harassing other players. Just flat-out a "you suck, here's your numbers, I was parsing and you're awful" level of bluntness.

Looks like people are heavily being distracted from the original point of this topic, so as a raider with high experience in all aspects of the game's difficulty let me please revert back to the OP's first comment and let's put this thread to bed since right now it's just pointless quibbling about analogies that make no sense.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I know that this is a touchy subject, but what is with the mindset of everyone expecting tanks to do more dps? I got kicked out of a dungeon recently because I wasn't tanking in sword oath and because of that I wasn't doing enough dps to stay in the dungeon I guess.

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Dungeons are honestly not something that the majority of the population care too much about regarding playing your class optimally. As long as you are doing your job and keeping hate as a tank then you should not experience any problems with the majority of the player-base unless they really are being jerks. If you are physically doing things you do NOT need to do, for example spamming flash when you already have tons of enmity, or not using your cooldowns appropriately and making it hard for the healer to keep you alive, or conversely focusing too much on doing DPS and not keeping hate; basically anything that would make people's lives harder than it need to be, then you should not be focused with any real warranted problems. Most people only have a problem when things are taking longer than they need to, especially in really old dungeons. When people do make a fuss, just ask them kindly to put up with it or leave. Most DPS will not bother leaving because of the incredibly long wait times to get into a new dungeon would be longer than suffering through "sub-optimal" tanking.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Yesterday, I was removed out of a hunt group killing A/S ranks because I was tanking in shield oath also.
Why are tanks expected to tank in sword oath now for even the most casual content? Why are tanks in general expected to do "X dps"?

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Now I'm not calling you a liar, but unless your server is heavily underpopulated and the hunt wasn't being zerged and for whatever reason the hunt wasn't being killed (does this ever happen?), I can't think of any reason to specifically pick up on this unless they were being elitist. Again, just find another group to go with and move on. Some people just like to troll for a sense of self-worth to basically say "Hey I'm better than you because I do this." Completely irrelevant and I would find it very hard to believe this happens very often.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Another thing, can I report people for harassing me for my status on FFXIV logs?

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If numbers during a raid are being referenced and you do not want to know about this, then yes you are well within your right to report people for this. Additionally if people are harassing you whilst directly referencing FFLOGS then again you are well within your right to report them. HOWEVER, and this is where my post starts to become a bit more against your current way of thinking, if they kick you but don't say why, you have no right to do anything. People are WELL within their rights to go and do searches on your current skill level and then decide if they want to play with you or not. People of a certain skill level in the game do not want to have to carry people and they do not want to have a terrible time when playing the game. Sometimes people kick people despite it being contradictive of their own skill level with hopes of better players carrying them, but regardless of the reason unless specifically being told about your logs and parses you do not have any right to complain about being kicked from a party for whatever reason. This is the party leader's discretion.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Apparently I'm not "good enough to farm Shinryu" yet I have the dog and 9 of the weapons. All I want to do is tank a freaking dragon and have a shot at the scale but because FFXIV logs says I'm "Bad" I guess I cant. I feel like I cant even play the game anymore because of how toxic the community has become.

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Real talk, you are not good enough to FARM Shinryu. Can you clear it? Sure you can, the fight is quite easy and doesn't require 100% effort from everyone. But what is a problem specifically for FARM parties is that other people have to work extra hard to make up for what you are not bringing to the table. This is why you are being kicked and not let into farm parties, simple as that really. If you don't want this attitude to continue work on looking up guides and seeing what you can do to improve your ability to play the game, this means using your enmity skills more intelligently so that you don't have to "overheal" in the sense of healers. Don't use enmity skills when you don't need to. Don't use shield oath when you are already top of the enmity list with no potential way of losing it. Use your enmity skills smartly so that you don't need to have "wasted" actions on lesser important actions. All of the former suggestions will give you more time to be able to do more with your time and therefore increase your overall DPS. DPS purely comes from playing optimally, not just from "dropping enmity/tanking skills". If you don't care about doing that then don't, but also don't expect players to let you play with them on the higher skilled content of the game.

That's very weird. It is not impossible, but it is very rare find someone in a dungeon asking the tank to pull more DPS. Most people doesn't care about tank staying all the time in tank stance. Even on extreme trials or Omega I didn't find anyone asking for this. In fact, all content is designed to have one tank as MT in full tank stance. Going full DPS is like healers, a optional thing, and usullay happens on preformed partie where everyone knows each other and there are confidence to do it safe.

Don't let that people stop you for enjoying game. You have a role as tank, and it is not DPS like a DPS job.

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Now I'm not calling you a liar, but unless your server is heavily underpopulated and the hunt wasn't being zerged and for whatever reason the hunt wasn't being killed (does this ever happen)

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This was at very early hours of the morning like 6am ish so there wasn't very many people latterly like 2 groups (and one wasn't even full).

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Real talk, you are not good enough to FARM Shinryu. Can you clear it? Sure you can, the fight is quite easy and doesn't require 100% effort from everyone. But what is a problem specifically for FARM parties is that other people have to work extra hard to make up for what you are not bringing to the table. This is why you are being kicked and not let into farm parties, simple as that really.

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So I ran with a friend yesterday who was running something to tell me my dps and he said after the clear that I was pulling 2,510 dps. According to logs unless I'm reading this wrong (which I very well may be) that should put me on the upper end of blue numbers and like 30-50 dps shy of the purple numbers (apparently colors = skill?). I don't see why I am being punished for having a single log of a fight that was put up without my permission (which btw was my freaking clear I found out looking back at the date of the log) that I have to deal with people bashing me for "low dps".

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Originally Posted by Hannia

So I ran with a friend yesterday who was running something to tell me my dps and he said after the clear that I was pulling 2,510 dps. According to logs unless I'm reading this wrong (which I very well may be) that should put me on the upper end of blue numbers and like 30-50 dps shy of the purple numbers (apparently colors = skill?). I don't see why I am being punished for having a single log of a fight that was put up without my permission (which btw was my freaking clear I found out looking back at the date of the log) that I have to deal with people bashing me for "low dps".

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Hiding your logs is a good way to make sure you aren't judged on that, however maybe it's better that you unhide them and have someone upload your better parses? Be proud of the fact that you are actively doing better, people only care about the highest number. If you drill down into some of my earlier omega savage runs I've had grey runs. Improve, practise and better yourself.

Edit: Having logs hidden will make people assume you have something embarrassing to hide and you may be kicked in much the same way.

Another thing, I NEVER said that I was not attempting to get better I only stated that I am tired of getting kicked out of or not even given a chance to do random casual content because of a bad log on a site that I do not use (and barely understand or have time to fool with). I am not a raider, I have no static, and the highest content I have time to do is Shinryu, the only time I get to play is on weekends because of my job and taking care of my daughter. When my job settles down at the start of 2018 I do plan on sitting down and figuring out stuff better because I will not be working Mon-Fri 12+ hrs a day then coming home to get my daughter from baby sitter and go home and cook dinner and get her ready for bed. As it is right now I am starting to wonder if I should even go into that content then, the community seems so toxic and I feel like that because I am already going to be behind I will NEVER catch up.

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Hiding your logs is a good way to make sure you aren't judged on that, however maybe it's better that you unhide them and have someone upload your better parses? Be proud of the fact that you are actively doing better, people only care about the highest number. If you drill down into some of my earlier omega savage runs I've had grey runs. Improve, practise and better yourself.

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Sadly I have no way of uploading my logs I don't use a meeter (or know how to even upload a log in the first place) and because of my work week I really cant just find someone to "log me" much less want to run the risk of making a group specifically stating that I'm lookin for someone to use an illegal 3rd party tool to post a log on my fight just so I have a better log on it. I just don't see anyone wanting to take that kind of risk for someone they don't know. Oh and as for my friend it was sheer dumb luck he was still on when I logged on because he normally logs off before I even get home

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Another thing, I NEVER said that I was not attempting to get better I only stated that I am tired of getting kicked out of or not even given a chance to do random casual content because of a bad log on a site that I do not use (and barely understand or have time to fool with).

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Perfectly understandable. No-one is expecting anything else from you. My suggestion would be to keep logs hidden or join some progression groups (I know you're not looking for progression), simply to get some better logs and then have something that will be more amicable for those people who are looking to farm without any chance of failure. You aren't being kicked out of any personal spite but just a common theme that low DPS usually means more chance of failure and people who are farming don't want to waste any time.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I am not a raider, I have no static, and the highest content I have time to do is Shinryu, the only time I get to play is on weekends because of my job and taking care of my daughter. When my job settles down at the start of 2018 I do plan on sitting down and figuring out stuff better because I will not be working Mon-Fri 12+ hrs a day then coming home to get my daughter from baby sitter and go home and cook dinner and get her ready for bed. As it is right now I am starting to wonder if I should even go into that content then, the community seems so toxic and I feel like that because I am already going to be behind I will NEVER catch up.

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Hard content unfortunately does require some effort and time and practise. For example Yoshi-P's comments around people who are not consistently clearing top tier content should not even bother to enter the new Ultimate raids. It's very promising that you are able to do all of that with a full time job and children, I hope that when I get to that point in my life I still have time to do hard content like Shinryu EX. Don't take things too harshly and just set boundaries for yourself that you can achieve. It's very easy to get into the mindset that you can do everything but sometimes you have to take a reality check. I personally believe from what you've said so far you have the ability to get decent parses in Shinryu EX and farm it, just work on that for now and get a friend of yours to get your numbers a bit higher to avoid people assumption kicking you.

Practice changing stances. I'm going to use PLD as an example.

If your healer is bad and can't keep you topped, stuck with shield oath. If your healer calls you bad, call them out on it. Don't be afraid to call out the loud mouths.

If your DPS are bad, taking forever to down trash, go sword oath. The more DPS you do the more emnity you can generate.

I've seen tanks pull in DPS for that burst of emnity, then go into tank stance while getting all the hate and having to go back to DPS stance every so often. But if your healer is having trouble topping you off stick to tanks stance. It's not your fault they can't do their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Another thing, I NEVER said that I was not attempting to get better I only stated that I am tired of getting kicked out of or not even given a chance to do random casual content because of a bad log on a site that I do not use (and barely understand or have time to fool with).

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Your earlier attitude spoke for you. Your thread was not a question of how to improve. You never sought any advice, and just wanted the people who kicked you to be banned. Your shinryu log has nothing to do with you getting kicked from dungeons or casual content, only getting kicked from shinryu.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I am not a raider, I have no static, and the highest content I have time to do is Shinryu, the only time I get to play is on weekends because of my job and taking care of my daughter. When my job settles down at the start of 2018 I do plan on sitting down and figuring out stuff better because I will not be working Mon-Fri 12+ hrs a day then coming home to get my daughter from baby sitter and go home and cook dinner and get her ready for bed.

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People can and will kick you from farm parties if they have reason to believe you are going to be dead weight. You are far from the only person with limited time to play, and most people would rather not waste their time if they think they're going to have to carry you. If you cannot handle this eventuality it may be better for you to instead spend your time playing a single player game.

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Originally Posted by HazyAssaulter

People can and will kick you from farm parties if they have reason to believe you are going to be dead weight. You are far from the only person with limited time to play, and most people would rather not waste their time if they think they're going to have to carry you. If you cannot handle this eventuality it may be better for you to instead spend your time playing a single player game.

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Let's not keep this thread going any longer than it needs to. I'm pretty sure Hannia gets it by this point and has some reasonable solutions to their problems. Can we close this one off now?

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Originally Posted by RinnLanael

Let's not keep this thread going any longer than it needs to. I'm pretty sure Hannia gets it by this point and has some reasonable solutions to their problems. Can we close this one off now?

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At this point it is more about trying to admonish this (essentially), "you don't pay my sub" mentality rather than encourage it. Before I posted in this thread all the feedback was more or less, "Yeah OP, report those people, get those elitists banned!"

Yoshi wanted to avoid fostering a toxic community where people are harassed over low DPS, but his "don't ask don't tell" policy has instead fostered a community of entitlement and selfishness full of people who shut down and go scrambling for the report button as soon as it is even implied that they can improve their performance.

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Originally Posted by RinnLanael

Let's not keep this thread going any longer than it needs to. I'm pretty sure Hannia gets it by this point and has some reasonable solutions to their problems. Can we close this one off now?

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sadly I have asked him to stop multiple times in this forum page and he isn't going to stop, he strikes me as the type that has to make sure he is "right" and the op (me in this case) has been belittled the point they no longer feel human. He has been assuming my attitude and belittling me since the first page of this post because "I'm just wrong and should get over it" when really this whole topic was me asking why it was acceptable and if I could report people for using logs as a reason to remove me from a group before we even go in.

Side note, I hear you can blacklist people on forums but I cant seem to figure it out anyone here know how to blacklist someone on here?

Blind post here.

Hannia, I hope your callout to "toxic dps community" isn't based only on those two experiences. Because you haven't said anything of the likes of getting dealt a bad hand consistently, I can't see how getting kicked twice suddenly turns your view that the community is all about tank dps and they're bad for it.

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Originally Posted by Hannia

I know that this is a touchy subject, but what is with the mindset of everyone expecting tanks to do more dps? I got kicked out of a dungeon recently because I wasn't tanking in sword oath and because of that I wasn't doing enough dps to stay in the dungeon I guess. Yesterday, I was removed out of a hunt group killing A/S ranks because I was tanking in shield oath also. Why are tanks expected to tank in sword oath now for even the most casual content? Why are tanks in general expected to do "X dps"? Another thing, can I report people for harassing me for my status on FFXIV logs?

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Just incase someone comes back and says "I never asked the questions that I said I asked".

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Originally Posted by Hannia

Just incase someone comes back and says "I never asked the questions that I said I asked".

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No one is saying you haven't asked the question. But it's been answered, multiple times.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Blind post here.

Hannia, I hope your callout to "toxic dps community" isn't based only on those two experiences. Because you haven't said anything of the likes of getting dealt a bad hand consistently, I can't see how getting kicked twice suddenly turns your view that the community is all about tank dps and they're bad for it.

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No it is off an entire weekend of harassment over the same thing in the time of 3 days constantly. I know what sometimes you run into a troll group every so often, but it just got out of hand after the 2nd day of dealing with it. Oh btw before anyone says that I was doing something else that had to be reason I got kicked, I was NOT! EVERY group that kicked me complained about the same thing "why are you tanking in shield oath" (side note it was almost always a dps complaining about 90% of the time however I had a healer complaining 2 or 3 times over the corse of the weekend)

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Originally Posted by Hannia

No it is off an entire weekend of harassment over the same thing in the time of 3 days constantly. I know what sometimes you run into a troll group every so often, but it just got out of hand after the 2nd day of dealing with it. Oh btw before anyone says that I was doing something else that had to be reason I got kicked, I was NOT! EVERY group that kicked me complained about the same thing "why are you tanking in shield oath" (side note it was almost always a dps complaining about 90% of the time however I had a healer complaining 2 or 3 times over the corse of the weekend)

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Thats an issue and clearly your the problem if its consistent i suggest practice if not then you will probably keep getting kicked and have to deal with it

I did tanked every PUG always in Shield and never got any problem.

Some parts of the day are filled with raging kids that treats everything as it is savage content, sastasha included, maybe you got bad luck and were playing in that hours and got some of them, it happens. You are a tank, so just shrug it off and requeue.

People can kick you out for any silly reason, just don't make it a personal thing and go forward. Requeue is the way. And if you think some inappropriate behaviour happened, just report it and you're done.

You can think about "git gut" when you want go to raiding savage. For everything else, just enjoy the game and don't care whoever asks you to be in savage skill level outside the savage content.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I did tanked every PUG always in Shield and never got any problem.

Some parts of the day are filled with raging kids that treats everything as it is savage content, sastasha included, maybe you got bad luck and were playing in that hours and got some of them, it happens. You are a tank, so just shrug it off and requeue.

People can kick you out for any silly reason, just don't make it a personal thing and go forward. Requeue is the way. And if you think some inappropriate behaviour happened, just report it and you're done.

You can think about "git gut" when you want go to raiding savage. For everything else, just enjoy the game and don't care whoever asks you to be in savage skill level outside the savage content.

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I think this is what I'm going to do thanks.

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Originally Posted by RinnLanael

Real talk, you are not good enough to FARM Shinryu. Can you clear it? Sure you can, the fight is quite easy and doesn't require 100% effort from everyone. But what is a problem specifically for FARM parties is that other people have to work extra hard to make up for what you are not bringing to the table.

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This is a great point about PF content in general. Pugging extremes and Savages for the first time in SB, I've noticed that me and the people I play with are a lot more careful about the parties we join than a lot of people seem to be. Joining a group you're not ready for brings nothing but trouble (for both you and the party), so people should really estimate their own abilities more carefully. Having cleared something once, or even multiple times, does not necessarily mean you're ready to join a farm party, and sometimes it's much better to first work on your confidence with mechanics and your rotation optimisation in last phase practice or first clear parties - especially if you notice that all your recorded wins have shown extremely low performance compared to other players with same job in that fight.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

You can think about "git gut" when you want go to raiding savage. For everything else, just enjoy the game and don't care whoever asks you to be in savage skill level outside the savage content.

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Except it's not about having "Savage skill level," it's about actually putting in effort. I'll never understand why people think actually trying means they have to be top 10%.

Honestly, OP, when facing these situations in DF, I only say something about it if I am on healer. The DPS, unless they are friends with the healer, have no right to tell the tank what to do. They can *suggest*, but never force. However, the healer's opinion should weight heavier over the DPS'.


I rarely tank in tank stance in boss fights. Only initially and to build some aggro before switching, but when playing as a healer, people can do what I do:

-Me: Hey everyone. It's okay to do big pulls.
Observation: If they do, GG. You are not sure about the party's potential until you give it a shot. If they don't, carry on and do your best to speed things up on your end (Healer DPS for instance).

-Me: You can drop your tank stance in boss fights. I gotchu, don't worry.
Observation: Same as above.

Kicking someone over it is acceptable ToS-wise, since it falls under the category of "different playstyles". Mentioning the use of parsers is clearly punisheable. If they don't, and if the majority agrees, you'll be dismissed from the instance.

People should try to negotiate with the conflicted parts before starting a vote kick. We, as players, for better or worse, should also learn how to be flexible and adapt to what the majority wants. If we disagree with them, we may as well either leave or find a group with the same mindset.

Both tank and healer DPS is a thing for some folks. Again, as I (and pretty much almost everyone mentioned), forcing that attitude in DF for casual content is kinda unrealistic.

Now, before I get too into it, no I do NOT condone the kicking of a tank because they are in their tank stance the whole time(I stick to tank stance around 90% of the time, and rarely drop Grit, or go into Sword Oath).

There is one thing that I haven't(and sorry if I missed it, I've only partially been paying attention to this thread) seen, and that's what the interactions were like. 9/10 when someone gets kicked from a group, it's because of toxic behaviour. The way you say something can definitely influence it, but very very VERY rarely do I see someone kicked for their numbers(actually, I've NEVER seen it). And without context(as I said, I didn't see it in this thread) it's really hard to say if that could have been a factor in the OP being removed.

I've noticed on several occasions that there are people that will be rude to the tank for little to no reason. In one instance, I remember a black mage giving the tank crap because they were not chain pulling, as if they didn't have enough time to run a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Now, before I get too into it, no I do NOT condone the kicking of a tank because they are in their tank stance the whole time(I stick to tank stance around 90% of the time, and rarely drop Grit, or go into Sword Oath).

There is one thing that I haven't(and sorry if I missed it, I've only partially been paying attention to this thread) seen, and that's what the interactions were like. 9/10 when someone gets kicked from a group, it's because of toxic behaviour. The way you say something can definitely influence it, but very very VERY rarely do I see someone kicked for their numbers(actually, I've NEVER seen it). And without context(as I said, I didn't see it in this thread) it's really hard to say if that could have been a factor in the OP being removed.

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Main issue is tank stance is pretty worthless /redundant nowadays

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Originally Posted by Cardian

I've noticed on several occasions that there are people that will be rude to the tank for little to no reason. In one instance, I remember a black mage giving the tank crap because they were not chain pulling, as if they didn't have enough time to run a dungeon.

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It's not that people are out to get tanks. If a tank is chain pulling and the DPS aren't using their AoE tools, the DPS are going to get flack too. Anyone that is consciously playing in a way that wastes everyone else's time is being inconsiderate.

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Originally Posted by Arkturius

Main issue is tank stance is pretty worthless /redundant nowadays

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Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd or whatever for a tank buster, or you along with the dps eat some unavoidable aoe dmg, dps are more likely to die if the healer (s) are busy trying to keep you alive as a result.

I like seeing big numbers next to my name as much as anyone else but chasing big dps numbers isn't the tanks job. That's just icing on the cake for them.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group.

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I play healer and this is not true in Expert. It doesn't put any pressure and I can DPS just fine. A tank that knows how to swap stances will have their aggro sorted out. Ultimately, DPS jobs have aggro managing skills.

Yes, accidents can happen, but it's not as bad as you make it look. Some people might make mistakes but some of them are also learning, which implies that they will f*** up at some point.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Not really. When you drop tank stance as the MT you're putting more pressure on the rest of the group. Dps can't afford not to watch their threat, healers end up spending more time healing you than dpsing themselves, and if things go south and you mess up not going back into tank stance in time thx to gcd or whatever for a tank buster, or you along with the dps eat some unavoidable aoe dmg, dps are more likely to die if the healer (s) are busy trying to keep you alive as a result.

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You put next to no extra pressure on the group if you know what you're doing. Smart cooldown usage, knowing when busters or heavy hits are coming, self healing, all make you functionally no different than a tank in tank stance to your healers.

DPS should be appropriately managing their threat in the first place (threat drops, diversion) but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

but you should also know when you need to throw in an extra hate combo or swap back into stance to regain more of a hate lead.

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Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Which, lets face it, quite a few tanks do NOT know how to do it. And they are also the ones that end up dropping the tank stance because "some other tank-main told me that tank stance isn't needed". I've lost count the number of times, while using Diversion/Lucid/whatever other agro dump I have, that I've stolen hate from a tank because "muh deeps"

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And I've lost count the number of times I outdps actual dps players as a tank. If they're not gonna contribute to dps, someone has to. :^)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

And I've lost count the number of times I outdps actual dps players as a tank. If they're not gonna contribute to dps, someone has to. :^)

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I've had that happen to, and without losing agro. BUT, I said that quite a few tanks cannot keep agro, and deal lots of DPS. I'm not saying that nobody should be staying in tank stance 100% of the time(I don't, if I have a good feel for the party, and know I can drop it, I will), but until people actually know the class they are in there as(which is where you out DPS those DPS - either by them not knowing their class, or you being way overgeared compared to them) they should stick to what their class is originally designed for.