PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Again this?

I outdps dps classes every day on my healers. You can do LOTS AND LOOOOTS of dps on big pulls. Do me one favor:

If you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, then...just DONT.

Thanks.

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From my experience if I'm outdamaging a dps. It's mainly due to me being way better geared. Or maybe it just varies by class. Considering you are a white mage and apparently your aoe can do a lot of burst could play a role in that as well. So I do know what i'm talking about actually lo

Edit: Then again maybe not, I haven't played WHM since..before heavensward..

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Originally Posted by ValarianHeartbreaker

Healing might be your MAIN role, but it's not your ONLY role.

Just like bards and mechs, summoners and ninjas with their goad, your main function might be to keep everyone alive, but you can do other stuff to help your group.

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This won't be the case anymore on DPS either, too. Bard songs seem to be single target now (unsure, someone else confirm? <_< I should harass my Discord for that source) and casters can transfer their MP to someone else. Goad is cross class now as well. Seems like SE is spreading utilities to other classes to allow for more flexibility.

That being said, SE removed a learning curve for healers and the DPSing mentality: cleric stance is a buff not unlike raging strikes, blood for blood or internal release. There's no reason you can't throw out offensive spells even without cleric stance once 4.0 hits.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

This won't be the case anymore on DPS either, too. Bard songs seem to be single target now (unsure, someone else confirm? <_< I should harass my Discord for that source) and casters can transfer their MP to someone else. Goad is cross class now as well. Seems like SE is spreading utilities to other classes to allow for more flexibility.

That being said, SE removed a learning curve for healers and the DPSing mentality: leric stance is a buff not unlike raging strikes, blood for blood or internal release. There's no reason you can't throw out offensive spells even without cleric stance once 4.0 hits.

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I know things will change in a couple of weeks, my comment was referring to the current state of the game :)

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

From my experience if I'm outdamaging a dps. It's mainly due to me being way better geared. Or maybe it just varies by class. Considering you are a white mage and apparently your aoe can do a lot of burst could play a role in that as well. So I do know what i'm talking about actually lol

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AST is on the lower side, but still has Gravity. It will still have a big impact if you do it properly.
I hardly ever play AST in roulettes, only in savage/ex. IMO they dont shine in roulettes but I managed to dish out a significant amount of dps regardless.
And I'm sure theres room for improvement there, too...pretty sure i didnt squeeze out every possible amount of dps there.
Also gear isnt *that* much of a factor as rotation is. And really,its not like the majority of people you encounter in expert have really low gear.
So...no,I dont think you are aware of whats possible.

And yes, indeed WHM and SCH have more DPS potential, but that doesnt mean an AST cant do enough to have a significant impact on runs!
(if your dps members suck...Id just buff myself with an enhanced balance and gravity the living hell out of packs... lol :D)

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Factually incorrect. Dps have no responsibility in this game because healers are so happy to carry them. If what you're saying was true, people would actually be pushing for the dps to be better instead of demanding healers carry them. Trying to say otherwise stinks of hypocrisy.

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What?

Someone mentioned it earlier in the thread - both DPS and tanks (assuming that they are players who aren't half-assing content), are always doing something. If a healer is JUST healing, I can guaran-frickin'-tee they are going to have down time unless they are overhealing like it is going out of style.

Moreover, as I previously mentioned, it isn't about carrying anyone. Adding more DPS to a given run (dungeon, primal, raid, etc) doesn't take ANYTHING away from the run assuming that the healer is doing their primary job of keeping everyone alive.

To reiterate, there IS NO CAP ON DAMAGE.

If I were to take your statement and put it in the context of savage-tier raiding, it just becomes absurd. DPS have to work just as hard as everyone else when it comes to raiding (lest they get dropped like a hot rock), and if the healer is able to provide some damage to ensure things go more smoothly, that isn't a carry.

None of this is difficult to grasp. I think the majority of players just want people to TRY. This applies to everyone, not just healers.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

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Well, I need to get back to some guides..I am lacking in areas where I thought I knew. My apologies for the other comment. I will admit I was wrong~

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Originally Posted by ValarianHeartbreaker

I know things will change in a couple of weeks, my comment was referring to the current state of the game :)

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Oh, I know. :) Pointing out to others that the mentality of other players, like DPS, not giving other buffs is another elephant in the room that people tend to not talking about. Ninjas giving goad is pretty rare. I cut the slack for bards and removing pacification- usually berserk gets pushed off a warrior's status and you don't see it until they are pacified already (or someone actually macro'd it). Or you have a trigger set on a third party program to tell you berserk was used.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Again this?

I outdps dps classes every day on my healers. You can do LOTS AND LOOOOTS of dps on big pulls. Do me one favor:

If you have NO IDEA what you are talking about, then...just DONT.

Thanks.



edit: im sorry if im coming off as agressive,but honestly...this is so annoying.

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As SCH i can relate to this, there isn't a day where I don't outdps a party doing dungeons. Eos' regen is strong enough to let me dps as much as I want the whole dungeon, I just drop cleric for an Adlo before each pull.

Healers do damage, a lot, there is no excuse to don't do it.

If i play tank or DPS I don't get to stand there doing absolutely nothing or run around in a circle not using actions for a few global cooldowns doing nothing assuming the OTHER DPS or tank will kill the mob for me, if I did this people would be upset and rightly so it's rude and inconsiderate to do so, So why would it not be the same for the healer If DPS and Tanks are expected to give 100% and never not be doing actions why would a healer get to just sit there and watch people?

If you are standing there WAITING to use your healing actions you are WASTING time for everyone involved.

I think the general thing to take away here is that: Not everyone plays the game the same way. Some people are comfortable dpsing and some arent. While, yes, which the new changes it makes it easier to dps as a healer, it might not be for everyone. So really, just be kind and understanding to people. If youre a dps and see a healer is questioning if they should dps or not, help out a bit by avoiding aoes, using the new ability that removes statuses from party members. Acting salty and bashing anyone who doesnt play like you is going to get us nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Yiazy

I think the general thing to take away here is that: Not everyone plays the game the same way. Some people are comfortable dpsing and some arent. While, yes, which the new changes it makes it easier to dps as a healer, it might not be for everyone. So really, just be kind and understanding to people. If youre a dps and see a healer is questioning if they should dps or not, help out a bit by avoiding aoes, using the new ability that removes statuses from party members. Acting salty and bashing anyone who doesnt play like you is going to get us nowhere.

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While this is most certainly true, If you want to choose play in a unique way that doesn't conform to the 3-7 other members of your party being kicked for different playstyles is 100% a valid reason in square enix's eyes, So if you are aware of your parties expectations (specifically when they express to you a request to DPS and not stand still doing nothing but waiting to heal) then I feel you are giving up your right to complain about being kicked if you are kicked, because you just don't want to work WITH the team, it may be your sub and you may have a desire to do things your way but people have a right to not want to play with you in the same way you have a right to refuse to DPS.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/140813/h299ln6g.jpg

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Originally Posted by Yiazy

I think the general thing to take away here is that: Not everyone plays the game the same way. Some people are comfortable dpsing and some arent. While, yes, which the new changes it makes it easier to dps as a healer, it might not be for everyone. So really, just be kind and understanding to people. If youre a dps and see a healer is questioning if they should dps or not, help out a bit by avoiding aoes, using the new ability that removes statuses from party members. Acting salty and bashing anyone who doesnt play like you is going to get us nowhere.

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you do have a very valid point there.

I am going to assume that part of your comment is refering to me, so let me just explain this one:

I'm not expecting someone to max out his fullest potential like I do, I just really dislike people generally underestimating a healer's possible dps impact.


(because it is this misconception what makes many healers think even more that its fine to not dps..."not like it will do much of a difference anyway")

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

you do have a very valid point there.

I am going to assume that part of your comment is refering to me, so let me just explain this one:

I'm not expecting someone to max out his full potential, I just really dislike people generally underestimating a healer's possible dps impact.

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I was not referring to you in all honesty, no idea who you are, just came to post that one thing and go.

I will put my 2 gil in here. I came from a few other MMOs and started playing here because an old guildmate/friend asked me to. I mained healer in quite a few MMOs and this one has healers so AFK I actually started doing damage to contribute because just healing gets boring after awhile. Any healer who wants to not DPS is just lazy and boring as a player. I played an MMO where healers had to 5 second cast rule to keep mana regen going so it was needed to rest. so far I have not seen this in many MMOS but the damage here feels like the 5SR applies but you have a but load of mana regen compared to the game that didn't let your mana regen until 5secs of not casting. Now I may not have hit end game as of yet, but I am having difficulties to even burn half my mana while DPS and healing and keeping my downtime to a minimum.

TL/DR even a new player who has played a game where a healer can only heal says damaging in downtime is beneficial to the group and your sanity.

haha ok then :P

i still think my point is valid that way. So whatever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

the OTHER DPS or tank will kill the mob for me

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.... You'd actually be surprised how common that is for people using parsers and pushing for good [personal] parses to upload. Especially when you understand that fflogs cuts off overkill damage. IJS, it does happen, just not the reason being argued currently.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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You missed my points entirely.

You assertion that casting Cure, Cure II, and Medica only is boring means that the design of the heals is boring. And that is true. The healing spells in this game are some of the least inspired I've ever encountered. Rather than using that as a defense, encourage SE to actually put some real thought into healing spells.

Secondly, not all mechanics = damage to heal. When I said you don't heal in a vacuum, I meant that when you are healing, you are also engaging with the rest of the fight and dealing with whatever mechanics are tossed your way - be it proper positioning, avoiding AoE, splitting up into different groups... Though again, your response makes it clear that SE lacks ingenuity when it comes to boss encounter mechanics if "Tank AA, tank buster, raid aoe, and dots" are the only things you could really think of.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

.... You'd actually be surprised how common that is for people using parsers and pushing for good [personal] parses to upload. Especially when you understand that fflogs cuts off overkill damage. IJS, it does happen, just not the reason being argued currently.

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It doesn't happen with the equivalent frequency of the free time a healer has between heals and situations I have been in where similar has happened is similarly treated as unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Though again, your response makes it clear that SE lacks ingenuity when it comes to boss encounter mechanics if "Tank AA, tank buster, raid aoe, and dots" are the only things you could really think of.

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Well, in fairness: There aren't a great many mechanics you can actually do for tanks and healers in particular. It's always going to boil down to getting healthbars up (either because they were damaged by unavoidable damage or because they start out at 1), switching or resetting aggro or mitigating a hit you can't dodge. It's that category that the person quoted is alluding to - Trinity exclusive mechanics.

Whenever there's an avoidable component, that part of the mechanic isn't healer/tank specific. When there's a stack mechanic, everyone needs to stack. If there's a gaze mechanic, everyone needs to turn etc. Those kinds of mechanics also work in non-trinity games, you can often translate them 1:1 even. That's a different category of mechanics, because they have nothing to do with healers, tanks or DPS in particular. You could even use many of them in a jump'n run style game ala Super Mario. Healers and tanks do need to deal with those as well of course (which feeds your second point from the previous post), but you don't need them for them.

I personally find the latter a lot more engaging than the prior, but that's just showing my preference for non-trinity gameplay. And it's tangential to the topic at best, so /huh.

So, what it really boils down to is healers using their whole package, yet there is no accountability when dps or tanks don't?

Healers are suppose to mitigate damage by dpsing? So, when do you hold the dps or tanks accountable for not using their mitigation (def cds)? You don't because of the MA DEEPS meta. If it clips a gcd, it's just not worth it.

Nobody outside SAVAGE uses their whole package 100%. Stop picking on the healers.

I really wish the would remove the cast bars from the party list. That way you can't single someone out because YOU think they are bad.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

So, what it really boils down to is healers using their whole package, yet there is no accountability when dps or tanks don't?

Healers are suppose to mitigate damage by dpsing? So, when do you hold the dps or tanks accountable for not using their mitigation (def cds)? You don't because of the MA DEEPS meta. If it clips a gcd, it's just not worth it.

Nobody outside SAVAGE uses their whole package 100%. Stop picking on the healers.

I really wish the would remove the cast bars from the party list. That way you can't single someone out because YOU think they are bad.

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People do hold DPS and tanks accountable for using their whole skill set. Just read some of the "Tales from the Duty Finder" stories to hear about it. I for one, call out DPS/Tanks not using support skills and defensive cooldowns. The difference is, most of them say "ok" instead of going on a diatribe about how they are "DPS AND DON'T USE NON-DPS SKILLS" and whatever tanks say.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

So, what it really boils down to is healers using their whole package, yet there is no accountability when dps or tanks don't?

Healers are suppose to mitigate damage by dpsing? So, when do you hold the dps or tanks accountable for not using their mitigation (def cds)? You don't because of the MA DEEPS meta. If it clips a gcd, it's just not worth it.

Nobody outside SAVAGE uses their whole package 100%. Stop picking on the healers.

I really wish the would remove the cast bars from the party list. That way you can't single someone out because YOU think they are bad.

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If a tank dies or does poorly and they clearly didn't use defensive cooldowns people do complain?, I don't know what universe you live in and there are plenty of stories of black mages who do their rotations completely wrong by just spamming Blizzard and never use Fire and people complain equally hard if not harder than they do at healers not doing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People do hold DPS and tanks accountable for using their whole skill set. Just read some of the "Tales from the Duty Finder" stories to hear about it. I for one, call out DPS/Tanks not using support skills and defensive cooldowns. The difference is, most of them say "ok" instead of going on a diatribe about how they are "DPS AND DON'T USE NON-DPS SKILLS" and whatever tanks say.

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^ This exactly, when they are called out on it they usually TRY to do better, I have never had a DPS tell me some sort of reason they do not want to use cooldowns, or a tank who is clearly dying from taking to much damage tell me he doesn't need cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

So, what it really boils down to is healers using their whole package, yet there is no accountability when dps or tanks don't?

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Tanks not using cooldowns get yelled at. Tanks not properly maintaining aggro get yelled at. DPS who clearly don't do anything get yelled at. DPS who fail DPS checks get yelled at.
For DPS, it's a bit harder to do since calling someone with parse evidence is prohibited. Yet, you often see a thread opening because someone got banned for saying a to DPS that he sucks because he only does X amount of dps.

Get over yourself, healers are not special snowflakes. People don't like slackers, would they be healers, tanks or DPS. That's all.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

So, what it really boils down to is healers using their whole package, yet there is no accountability when dps or tanks don't?

Healers are suppose to mitigate damage by dpsing? So, when do you hold the dps or tanks accountable for not using their mitigation (def cds)? You don't because of the MA DEEPS meta. If it clips a gcd, it's just not worth it.

Nobody outside SAVAGE uses their whole package 100%. Stop picking on the healers.

I really wish the would remove the cast bars from the party list. That way you can't single someone out because YOU think they are bad.

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In what world are DPS and tanks not held accountable? If a DPS or a tank slacks off, you best believe I will indiscriminately kick them just as quick as a lazy healer.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Get over yourself, healers are not special snowflakes. People don't like slackers, would they be healers, tanks or DPS. That's all.

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This is pretty much everything.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People do hold DPS and tanks accountable for using their whole skill set. Just read some of the "Tales from the Duty Finder" stories to hear about it. I for one, call out DPS/Tanks not using support skills and defensive cooldowns. The difference is, most of them say "ok" instead of going on a diatribe about how they are "DPS AND DON'T USE NON-DPS SKILLS" and whatever tanks say.

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"I don't use any skills but Flash and defensive cooldowns!"

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People do hold DPS and tanks accountable for using their whole skill set. Just read some of the "Tales from the Duty Finder" stories to hear about it. I for one, call out DPS/Tanks not using support skills and defensive cooldowns. The difference is, most of them say "ok" instead of going on a diatribe about how they are "DPS AND DON'T USE NON-DPS SKILLS" and whatever tanks say.

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In your instances maybe. I've ran into quite a few dps that say, "you should just heal me through it, or the tried and true "it's my sub....".

The tales of the DF is a terrible representation of the community because it's mostly filled with elitests that like to brag about how much they had to "suffer" through and instance with people that should unsub.

You don't see dps being kicked for not cross classing featherfoot, but wait till a healer has slotted protect into slot one instead of clerics in low level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, in fairness: There aren't a great many mechanics you can actually do for tanks and healers in particular.

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"You don't heal in a vacuum" refers to the entire fight, not just what damage is going out to a tank. Thus my statement that engaging boss mechanics can make even simplistic healing fun because the encounter overall is interesting.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

It doesn't happen with the equivalent frequency of the free time a healer has between heals and situations I have been in where similar has happened is similarly treated as unacceptable.

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I'm on the other end of that spectrum, mainly because I play heals most of the time. I run into more DPS trying to get good parses than making sure we don't raid wipe to an add DPS check. Nidhogg EX and A11S being the worst offenders I can think of, but not limited to.
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It appears most people just want healers to attempt to DPS (with cleric stance). I can understand the sentiment that this is asking for healers to do more than is necessary/work harder than others. A tank that is having trouble holding aggro, or is afraid to, generally doesn't get reprimanded for not dropping out of tank stance. Yet, people are more willing to vote kick a healer for not popping cleric stance because the healer isn't conforming to a party's demands. They could be DPSing, but they are bad because no cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Healers who fail DPS checks get yelled at.

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Fixed that for you just a bit~ Never have I seen anyone ever get mad at a dps, even if dps checks are failed. They just immediately jump on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Fixed that for you just a bit~ Never have I seen anyone ever get mad at a dps, even if dps checks are failed. They just immediately jump on the healer.

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That is far and away the silliest thing I have read in this entire thread.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I'm on the other end of that spectrum, mainly because I play heals most of the time. I run into more DPS trying to get good parses than making sure we don't raid wipe to an add DPS check. Nidhogg EX and A11S being the worst offenders I can think of, but not limited to.

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These people certainly do exist, my opinion is more of just go with what your team wants, whatever the majority of the group thinks is their best strategy going forward should shape how everyone plays in that specific instance
by all means though people should put their opinions out there if people only want to heal and not dps if the party is okay with that its fine, if DPS only want to work on their 1337 parse and would rather have more wipes than winning efficiently that's fine so long as everyone is on the same page there isn't a problem if people can't agree people probably need to leave or risk being kicked.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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This is not entirely true. If a tank holds aggro in tank stance for a whole dungeon, nobody says, " You should have been in dps stance, scrub! Try to contribute more, you lazy tank!" They are doing their ROLE in the party.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

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Those people who refuse to take suggestion are few and far between and the solution is simple... kick. People who waste time get the boot - DPS, tanks and healers.
And for the record, I heal as well - main SUM/AST - and slotting Protect first was never, ever an issue. I used to do that until just a month ago when I switched to Clerics. No one ever says a damn thing to me when I heal, even when I fudge. Then again... I don't stand around and do nothing. :rolleyes:

Not sure what game some people are playing if they have never seen a DPS get called out for being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

These people certainly do exist, my opinion is more of just go with what your team wants, whatever the majority of the group thinks is their best strategy going forward should shape how everyone plays in that specific instance
by all means though people should put their opinions out there if people only want to heal and not dps if the party is okay with that its fine, if DPS only want to work on their 1337 parse and would rather have more wipes than winning efficiently that's fine so long as everyone is on the same page there isn't a problem if people can't agree people probably need to leave or risk being kicked.

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Then I don't see how it's not fine for a healer to not DPS if everyone else is on the same page. Otherwise, this is a double standard. I'm just saying.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Tanks not using cooldowns get yelled at.

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tanks that don't use cooldowns just do smaller pulls.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

DPS who clearly don't do anything get yelled at.

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i've watched many DPS just single target mobs after i pull 2-3 packs.

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Originally Posted by missybee

In what world are DPS and tanks not held accountable? If a DPS or a tank slacks off, you best believe I will indiscriminately kick them just as quick as a lazy healer.

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you people must play a different game than i do. can't remember the last time i saw someone in a 4 man willing to kick anyone and wait for the spot to be refilled. i've seen bad Tanks/DPS/Healers and we always just leave them alone and take an extra 5-10 mins doing the dungeon. maybe once a month or two someone will throw out a line just as the dungeon ends.

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Originally Posted by missybee

That is far and away the silliest thing I have read in this entire thread.

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You say that. And yet just from what I've seen, that's very much the norm. Rare, if ever do I see people hold DPS accountable, preferring to just shrug all the load onto the healer instead. After all, that's the meta, aye? Healers are expected to carry dps for the vast majority, yet even suggest that a dps could do better and suddenly the entire community flames for it.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

This is not entirely true. If a tank holds aggro in tank stance for a whole dungeon, nobody says, " You should have been in dps stance, scrub! Try to contribute more, you lazy tank!" They are doing their ROLE in the party.

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If a tank is Off tanking in an 8 main trial and doesn't have hate and tries to have Shield oath/grit/defiance instead and isn't in DPS stance they will get yelled at, even though TANKING is their Role.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

This is not entirely true. If a tank holds aggro in tank stance for a whole dungeon, nobody says, " You should have been in dps stance, scrub! Try to contribute more, you lazy tank!" They are doing their ROLE in the party.

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So, just to clarify here...it is okay if say...a PLD runs a dungeon and only uses Flash and defensive cooldowns. Nothing but Flash and defensive cooldowns. Keeps aggro of course but uses absolutely nothing else and that includes using zero sword combos...is this okay?

Or...you know wouldn't most people ask them to contribute DPS by using the combos they are given instead of them just spamming flash enough to hold hate then just using cool downs then AFKing until the mobs are dead?

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Then I don't see how it's not fine for a healer to not DPS if everyone else is on the same page. Otherwise, this is a double standard. I'm just saying.

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I did say it is fine for a healer to not DPS if their party is okay with it, but if the majority of their group is not okay with it then something needs to change, either their stance on DPS or their position in the party.