Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

SE should just lock Cleric Stance in synched dungeons/raids etc..
- done with those "complains"
- done with those unjustified Vote-kicks, because some people want a run a few mins faster
- done with dramas about it!

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I get complaining, but locking this would cause quite a number of healers to just stop healing. The simple fact of the matter is healer DPS is always going to just be a matter that is decided by the healer in question. If they are comfortable with it, they should, if not, then don't. It really should be that simple. Taking away a tool for those who use it just punishes them because some people don't want them doing anything but.

Admittedly, the only real reason to queue up as a healer in this game is to take it easy with a highly dumbed down dps rotation and half afk while doing it. The actual healing part in this game feels like such an afterthought that I've gone through entire runs forgetting I was a WHM/AST, and I probably wouldn't have remembered in the first place if someone doesn't point it out after the second boss.

I really do wish healing was more important, rather than feeling like a boring dps slog, but that's just how the game is designed.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Admittedly, the only real reason to queue up as a healer in this game is to take it easy with a highly dumbed down dps rotation and half afk while doing it. The actual healing part in this game feels like such an afterthought that I've gone through entire runs forgetting I was a WHM/AST, and I probably wouldn't have remembered in the first place if someone doesn't point it out after the second boss.

I really do wish healing was more important, rather than feeling like a boring dps slog, but that's just how the game is designed.

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This is probably the only pro-heal only comment that I will agree with. Healers shouldn't have to DPS because there should be more to do as a healer that isn't DPS. CURRENTLY yes, You should DPS as a healer, it is how you play your job. But most importantly is that you should be doing something on every cast, and because the healer requirement is so low. This is why you must fill those gaps with DPS, the better healer you are, the more you will maximise your DPS, but all healers should be doing some form of damage to fill the gaps that they don't need to heal (I have had some bosses where selene has solo healed, don't ever tell me you can't DPS). I just wish that SE shifted the meta so that healers could be doing other things that related more to buffing/protecting/casting things on allies in the downtime between healing.

Edit: The one thing they can't do is up the healing requirement. The reason that we don't have savage dungeons is because there is only one healer, and if the healer dies it is a wipe. If the tank dies, its not necessarily a wipe, and if DPS die, its fine. Having only one healer would make savage dungeons harder than savage raids at times, and the requirement of a good healer specifically would add a lot of pressure to healers, and ruin the jobs reputation. Remember garuda story mode (pre-nerf) when you had a new healer?

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Originally Posted by Rennies

It's not a stupid reason to kick someone when they're LEECHING. :0

Anyone who purposely doesn't contribute at all to the ultimate goal of "kill the enemies" is leeching.

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Well, add to the leeching category the tanks who can't handle the aggro and the DDs who can't deal 2,5k dps the whole time.

For you the 99% of the players are leechers and deserve to be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Well, add to the leeching category the tanks who can't handle the aggro and the DDs who can't deal 2,5k dps the whole time.

For you the 99% of the players are leechers and deserve to be kicked.

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Let's just kick everyone that doesn't play my way! No one deserves rewards except me! /s

I do agree though that people are being a tad silly about what qualifies for a votekick though.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

No, leeching is a WAR that doesn't use stacks, and only does butcher block combo and overwhelm, a PLD who only flashes, a BLM who only uses blizzard 1, a BRD who spams heavy shot etc. Do not equate (intentional, non learning) heal only healers to average players, equate them to bad, lazy players like the archetypes I listed.

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I'm pretty sure she's being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Well, add to the leeching category the tanks who can't handle the aggro and the DDs who can't deal 2,5k dps the whole time.

For you the 99% of the players are leechers and deserve to be kicked.

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No, leeching is a WAR that doesn't use stacks, and only does butcher block combo and overwhelm, a PLD who only flashes, a BLM who only uses blizzard 1, a BRD who spams heavy shot etc. Do not equate (intentional, non learning) heal only healers to average players, equate them to bad, lazy players like the archetypes I listed.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Again once your comfortable with healer you can usually figure out the skill level of your tank within a couple minutes of the fight and you still can dps but just a bit less then you would with a good tank unless they literally cant hate. Although I have dps in dungeons and I was pulling hate with holy and its still pretty easy to keep your self alive because enemy's hit for so little damage.

The only reasonable excuse to hold onto Benediction is your learning a fight and almost positive your going to need to use it otherwise its a waste of your best healing OGCD.

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My comfort healing in this game is instance-based. It changes from group to group. If a tank Leeroys before I can get buffs up, it is instantly going to put me in an uncomfortable situation, and my DPS will come later. Tanks that wait for buffs, and are patient enough to make sure everyone is on the same page will increase my comfort level greatly. It is with tanks like these that I have noticed my DPS output is so much higher.

If you're pulling hate with Holy, you probably should stop casting it. You're not doing anybody any favors tanking as a healer. Your heals can't sustain you if too many mobs are on you. The damage isn't as little as you claim. A tank dropped on me just the other day in Pharos Sirius. I have fully augmented IW gear, which is way over-geared for this dungeon. Despite this, each mob was hitting for around 600 damage, and there were 3-4 of them. This translates to 1800-2400 damage every 2-3 seconds. With just a little over 6k HP and weak physical defense, trash mobs will drop a healer quick. That is without mention that your spells will likely all be interrupted.

As for benediction, the only reason any healer needs to hold on to it is, it is at their discretion to use it. Seriously, that is it. It is indeed very DPS convenient, but it can also save a situation about to turn really bad. Each side of this coin has a just argument to either use/abuse or hold onto bene.

It doesn't matter how busy they make the healer, even if they added more debuffs,damage etc. A good healer will still look for other openings and ways to push their job further.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

It doesn't matter how busy they make the healer, even if they added more debuffs,damage etc. A good healer will still look for other openings and ways to push their job further.

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Which is a GOOD THING. Tanks find ways to push DPS in raids by having complex stance swapping, but not stance swapping often doesn't make you a bad tank, not using your DPS skills and cooldowns does, healers going above and beyond to squeeze a bit more out of their rotation is nothing new. Healers should still have more to do besides DPS when they aren't direct healing (even if it involves more healer mechanics).

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

SE should just lock Cleric Stance in synched dungeons/raids etc..
- done with those "complains"
- done with those unjustified Vote-kicks, because some people want a run a few mins faster
- done with dramas about it!

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But you said

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

If some people can dps and healing, fine, its THERE gameplay not mine o_O

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So what about my $15? Is yours worth more than mine because you refuse to DPS but I prefer to DPS while also healing?

Also, that shot about it not being expected, that's cute.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Which is a GOOD THING. Tanks find ways to push DPS in raids by having complex stance swapping, but not stance swapping often doesn't make you a bad tank, not using your DPS skills and cooldowns does, healers going above and beyond to squeeze a bit more out of their rotation is nothing new. Healers should still have more to do besides DPS when they aren't direct healing (even if it involves more healer mechanics).

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Healers in FFXI were much more busy we had more buffs/debuffs/enhancements etc. In XI it was 1 healer managing 5 people and still the healer had time to throw out dps. One of the reasons some healers wont risk dpsing is the 5sec wait to switch back. Out of curiosity what else would you give them.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

... Healers shouldn't have to DPS because there should be more to do as a healer that isn't DPS. CURRENTLY yes, You should DPS as a healer, it is how you play your job. But most importantly is that you should be doing something on every cast, and because the healer requirement is so low. This is why you must fill those gaps with DPS

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I agree with this 100%. Casters, including healers should follow the ABC rule, and the only way to comply with that is to cast offensive spells. Oddly enough, the healer that is expected to DPS the most, actually has the most to do outside of it. This healer being SCH. With shields, heals, fairy micro-management, and aetherflow management, this is one busy job, and if it wasn't for their fairies, they would have very little time to DPS.

Due to the current meta though, I am not sure if additional utility would even be welcome. Say healers could inflict things like physical/magical vulnerability down, or increase resistances to certain elements and physical damage, I am not even sure they would be worth the gcd. One time I mentioned giving WHMs an AoE cleanse, and most people said they can't even think of an instance where it would be useful. So I dunno.

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This healer being SCH. With shields, heals, fairy micro-management, and aetherflow management, this is one busy job, and if it wasn't for their fairies, they would have very little time to DPS.

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Nope without the fairy you just described AST and we have time to dps.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Due to the current meta though, I am not sure if additional utility would even be welcome. Say healers could inflict things like physical/magical vulnerability down, or increase resistances to certain elements and physical damage, I am not even sure they would be worth the gcd. One time I mentioned giving WHMs an AoE cleanse, and most people said they can't even think of an instance where it would be useful. So I dunno.

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You could really lump PLD into this problem too. It has lots of utility which is great, but everyone is like "nah, DPS is better, learn to play without the utility" I feel like healer DPS needs to be in a way that enhances raid DPS (like balance).

I stopped healing in this game because of, in my opinion, how poorly designed it is. It's more hybrid than healer. Spending so much time DPSing, I figured it better to just switch to a full time DPSer with a better kit for the role.
The last census showed an increase in DPS players compared to a perfect ratio in previous censuses. I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way I do.

I'd love to heal but until fights bump up the healing game, I'll weather the DPS queues.

Make Healing Great Again!

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Nope without the fairy you just described AST and we have time to dps.

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Heal with SCH without the fairy, and then let me know if you have time to DPS.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

But you said



So what about my $15? Is yours worth more than mine because you refuse to DPS but I prefer to DPS while also healing?

Also, that shot about it not being expected, that's cute.

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See the "What about my sub fee?" argument goes both ways. Just because a player is in the minority regarding their play style doesn't make them wrong. When you use the duty finder to play with random people you are simultaneously agreeing to be grouped with others whose play styles may differ drastically from your own. If you don't like it then leave or kick them, but to rant about how stupid or bad they are is just selfish and very shortsighted.

A healer should dps if they can.

Some situations will make it very hard to dps even if the healer is good.
- Under geared tank.
- Tank not using proper CDs.
- Party members not dodging AoE and dying.
- Taking too long to kill ads/bosses (Results in more damage taken and therefore more healing).

There are other reasons but this is what I've experienced while playing a healer.
So the performance of the party will affect on the healers dps.

(1) If you have a terrible party, the healer will be carrying you.
(2) If you have a great party and the healer is not dpsing then the healer is being carried by the party.

Sadly you can't do anything to fix (1) but in (2) you'll make party even greater by dpsing.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

See the "What about my sub fee?" argument goes both ways. Just because a player is in the minority regarding their play style doesn't make them wrong. When you use the duty finder to play with random people you are simultaneously agreeing to be grouped with others whose play styles may differ drastically from your own. If you don't like it then leave or kick them, but to rant about how stupid or bad they are is just selfish and very shortsighted.

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Actually it doesn't go both ways, it is split 4 or 8 ways, its not about my sub fee versus yours, its about your $15 versus the rest of the partys $45 (or even $105), if you play the "I pay my sub, I play how I want" card, you set yourself up to lose every time. This is a multiplayer game where you are putting yourself in a position of responsibility for the rest of the party, and the party has basic expectations of you that you should meet (and if you don't through your own choice, you are the one in the wrong). Though as I have always said, the exception to this is people who are learning and try to improve.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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It is a silly question, man. If you are in a 4-dungeon or in raid and other players want to kick you, they will do that- no matter the reason- AFK, OFFline or another. No matter what are you doing

So, relax

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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You're assuming everyone else in the party has the same mindset as you as well. Even if they do and don't like how the one person is playing, SE has made it clear that kicking based on differing play styles is acceptable. So by this logic I'm sorry, a party kicking a healer for doing dps instead of purely healing is perfectly acceptable and justifiable. /thread

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Originally Posted by Schark

I stopped healing in this game because of, in my opinion, how poorly designed it is. It's more hybrid than healer. Spending so much time DPSing, I figured it better to just switch to a full time DPSer with a better kit for the role.
The last census showed an increase in DPS players compared to a perfect ratio in previous censuses. I wouldn't be surprised if others felt the same way I do.

I'd love to heal but until fights bump up the healing game, I'll weather the DPS queues.

Make Healing Great Again!

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Yes, we noticed the increase of mediocre dps, who are not used to use a skill every 2,5s and don't monitor the effectivness of their rotation.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

One of the reason I play as healer is: Im healing and nothing else! Some people may had a hard day on there job and want to relax!
Im Queing up in Duty Finder as Healer, not as DPS-Healer!

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No offense but you basically just admitted you want to do nothing(relax) & be carried. The dps & tank are all attacking non stop trying their best while you do almost nothing with less than 1/3 of the button input they do.

As tank I have actually done whole 60 dungeons without a healer, as the little amount of healing skills they give to tank are enough to get by. So what I'm trying to say is, since a tank could do it alone, what is the healer even there for? A free ride? Do you enjoy piggybacking other people's hard work? I just don't understand it.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

No offense but you basically just admitted you want to do nothing(relax) & be carried. The dps & tank are all attacking non stop trying their best while you do almost nothing with less than 1/3 of the button input they do.

As tank I have actually done whole 60 dungeons without a healer, as the little amount of healing skills they give to tank are enough to get by. So what I'm trying to say is, since a tank could do it alone, what is the healer even there for? A free ride? Do you enjoy piggybacking other people's hard work? I just don't understand it.

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If that is the case then get SE to get rid of healers all together and go with 3 dps and a tank if you don't need a healer.

If you played Scholar correctly you would technically be 3DPS with a fairy that heals.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

No offense but you basically just admitted you want to do nothing(relax) & be carried. The dps & tank are all attacking non stop trying their best while you do almost nothing with less than 1/3 of the button input they do.

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Don't bother. That's the same poster who has freely admitted to not bothering with positionals as a DPS. The poster child of mediocrity and being proud of it.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

If that is the case then get SE to get rid of healers all together and go with 3 dps and a tank if you don't need a healer.

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I've actually seen this suggestion before and for reasons I can't understand it was shot down. It was something along the lines of party role requirements for synced duty finder should be removed altogether. After all if four dps can do a dungeon synced without a tank or healer than why shouldn't they be allowed to? Other than certain already invalid classes would be left behind to rot and force SE to do actual work to balance them and make them relevant again....

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A healer intentionally wiping the group to get out one more dps cast wastes 6+ minutes. A dps or tank making a mistake at most wastes 5-6 seconds. Not really comparable.

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You should be ashamed for what you said. Healer can't do mistakes? Delete your account if you don't want to see anyone making mistakes.

I have a question.. If a Healer's job is only to heal..

What does an Off-tank do?

Is their job to wait down the back of the arena for most of the fight until an add pops or there is a tank swap?

I mean by definition their role in the duty is a Tank.
When there is only 1 mob and the other Tank is holding hate on it..

What is their role?

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Out of curiosity what's the off tanks role if no adds or tank swaps? I guess just sit down and wait for the main tank to die.

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Oh someone beat me to that question already. Woops!

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Originally Posted by Altena

I mean by definition their role in the duty is a Tank.
When there is only 1 mob and the other Tank is holding hate on it..

What is their role?

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Clearly to engage in a pointless aggro war with the MT and make the DPS pull their hairs in frustration over the ever spinning boss.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Clearly to engage in a pointless aggro war with the MT and make the DPS pull their hairs in frustration over the ever spinning boss.

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lmao how true this is

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Incidentally, I find that even when dps stancing dungeons, the dps don't tend to be that great, so even with big pulls a run can take 20 mins+. I'd rather go as a deeps, since I have a run of 15 or lower with a one or two minute wait.

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Woah wait what?

Sorry this is a bit of a dated response but 15 min runs in a DR:Expert with the healer not being heavily DPS'ing?

Sorry, but you are delusional if you think you are achieving that kind of time without quite moderate healer DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

If that is the case then get SE to get rid of healers all together and go with 3 dps and a tank if you don't need a healer.

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This will actually happen if SE decides to remove Cleric Stance and doesn't compensate Healers with MND based damage. PLD does more than enough with Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

This will actually happen if SE decides to remove Cleric Stance and doesn't compensate Healers with MND based damage. PLD does more than enough with Clemency.

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PLD Clemency is quite OP as a healing spell, but lords the MP cost... You can try to Riot Blade to get it back in some reasonable time, but on bosses with severe tank busters it just won't cut it and you need a healer.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

PLD Clemency is quite OP as a healing spell, but lords the MP cost... You can try to Riot Blade to get it back in some reasonable time, but on bosses with severe tank busters it just won't cut it and you need a healer.

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There are very few dungeons which can't be cleared without Clemency. If one can't, a second tank would solve the problem anyway. As a healer who DPSs throughout 95% of my average dungeon runs, it is quite clear to me how little healing is required (and therefore how much these 0 DPS healers are being lazy asses).

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Originally Posted by Rennies

This will actually happen if SE decides to remove Cleric Stance and doesn't compensate Healers with MND based damage. PLD does more than enough with Clemency.

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Some groups already do this, the biggest obstacle is just that you need to get 4 people together.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

There are very few dungeons which can't be cleared without Clemency. If one can't, a second tank would solve the problem anyway. As a healer who DPSs throughout 95% of my average dungeon runs, it is quite clear to me how little healing is required (and therefore how much these 0 DPS healers are being lazy asses).

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This is true when you're talking about over-geared healers and over-geared tanks, not necessarily for those just getting to that content. If your a lvl 60 geared healer running Haukke with a lvl 60 geared tank then, yes, you should be able to DPS fine through it. If you're an on-level, moderately geared healer with an on-level, moderately geared tank then you're going to be spending a LOT more time healing than DPSing. All comes down to circumstance.

However, I am of the camp that if you have time to stand around you have time to DPS. I stance dance with Cleric all the time when I'm healing, but then all my healers are 60 with average iLvl 200+, so I can afford that extra time when my single Cure I heals the tank for half their HP.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Heal with SCH without the fairy, and then let me know if you have time to DPS.

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That would still be pretty easy you underestimate how easy healing is in dungeons throw up an adlo and you have plenty of time to dps

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

You're assuming everyone else in the party has the same mindset as you as well. Even if they do and don't like how the one person is playing, SE has made it clear that kicking based on differing play styles is acceptable. So by this logic I'm sorry, a party kicking a healer for doing dps instead of purely healing is perfectly acceptable and justifiable. /thread

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If everyone in my party had the mindset of hating the fact that I fill the gaps between heals with DPS spells, and had the audacity to kick me for doing my job well, then I really don't want to be in that party.

The point is that if a healer just idles while purely healing, the rest of the party has to work harder, if a healer follows their ABC and casts DPS spells, then the party doesn't have to work as hard and clears content faster. Please tell how these are both equally likely to be frowned upon?

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Originally Posted by Altena

I have a question.. If a Healer's job is only to heal..

What does an Off-tank do?

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The better question is what does an off-healer do?

If you're dpsing and not doing your job healing, then yes. You should be kicked since apparently you don't understand the purpose of the role. If that's not the case and you're adding optional dps while maintaining party health, then no, you shouldn't be kicked.

As for the point on whether healers should dps or not, dps is based on healer comfort level. And groups have to stop trying to force healers to get to that comfort level. Being able to dps efficiently requires knowledge of the fight and when you have points of downtime. You must let the healer come to find those places on their own, or they will struggle trying to fulfill a secondary role.