A12 savage World first 3 days after patch

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Lool maybe u mean that's me doing another post?? Go check the history of the guy who made that thread , u are completly disturbed if u think that's me ( he has also post in things i don't have any interest lol)

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I never said it was you? I said you bringing it up like it makes you right because there's two threads now makes you right with "Nothing more to say".

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

You're bringing up the other thread and claiming that the discussion is over with "Nothing more to say" as if a second thread (Where the highest liked comment in that one too is opposed to your claims, if that has any weight) makes you right. I could run off and make a new thread saying the opposite but that wouldn't make me right either. That's not quite how it works.

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Well that thread shows u that there are other people not hardcore who thinks exactly the same , is ok to have an easier content but this is tooooooooo easyy

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Well that thread shows u that there are other people not hardcore who thinks exactly the same , is ok to have an easier content but this is tooooooooo easyy

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Of COURSE there are. Believe it or not there is more than you playing this game! Having said that, there's even more people who disagree with you than you agree with you it seems (Going even by clear numbers alone, not to mention the number of people in these forums because that seems to be your scale), so what happens to them? Toss em under the bus because of TWO whole threads?

By the way, i'm not advocating not having harder content in the game. I'm a firm believer everyone should have content that challenges them. But as it stands more people benefit the from having a raid tier with this difficulty than the extreme minority of hardcore raiders. So I would LOVE for hardcore players to have a tier up above this, but frankly at the moment that simply doesn't exist, so I vote for keeping more players happy than less players happy.

Not to mention one the of the BIGGEST complaints about Midas and Gordias and Coil was that ALL content in the game pre raid did not prepare you for the level of difficulty that ensued. The learning curve was absolute garbage, this tier would be a great stepping stone in helping players get better beyond wiping on dungeon bosses.

After the failure of gordias, why this forum is discussing raid tuning again?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

After the failure of gordias, why this forum is discussing raid tuning again?

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Beacuse is the 1% complaining players of the comunity who will never be satisfied with anything, never...

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Beacuse is the 1% complaining players of the comunity who will never be satisfied with anything, never...

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Or maybe, idk, because we want to have a healthy raiding community with properly balanced raid challenges that are satisfying, rewarding and lasting?

That 1% is only a 1% only because the dev team has utterly failed to bring a properly balanced raid experience, if the raids were meaninful and balanced, that % would be much, much higher, but again, that means job and is better for them to discourage players from raiding so they later have less work to do.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Or maybe, idk, because we want to have a healthy raiding community with properly balanced raid challenges that are satisfying, rewarding and lasting?

That 1% is only a 1% only because the dev team has utterly failed to bring a properly balanced raid experience, if the raids were meaninful and balanced, that % would be much, much higher, but again, that means job and is better for them to discourage players from raiding so they later have less work to do.

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On top of that, content scaling around raids also.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

After the failure of gordias, why this forum is discussing raid tuning again?

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Once you beat something, you know the mechanics and then go into forum claiming its too easy...

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Once you beat something, you know the mechanics and then go into forum claiming its too easy...

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I see this all the time and it upsets me too. The words "too easy" are thrown around like candy from a pinata. Calculus can be easy too once you take the time to study and learn it. It is such a bad metric and it is so vague that all a player hears is "easy" and assumes they can do it without hassle.

Let's make sure we're on the same page.

Let's get the first part straight, Gordias, while difficult, was not a good raid tier. It was ARTIFICIALLY difficult because it relied upon gear caps to be able to pass certain aspects of the fights, and thus relied very little on mechanical skill. Midas, was a decent raid tier which did a great job at relying on mechanical skill to pass, but the problem was the fights (and Alexander in general) was boring. This tier is too easy because mechanical skill isn't necessarily required and is far too forgiving, but I will say that the fights are more fun than the prior two tiers. When people are complaining about something being too easy, they're looking for a mechanically intensive challenge (i.e. Second Coil and Second Coil Savage), which challenges their abilities to be coordinated while still providing a little bit of leeway and uniqueness to the fights; it helps if the fights themselves are rather fun.

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Originally Posted by SublimeIbanez

Let's make sure we're on the same page.

Let's get the first part straight, Gordias, while difficult, was not a good raid tier. It was ARTIFICIALLY difficult because it relied upon gear caps to be able to pass certain aspects of the fights, and thus relied very little on mechanical skill. Midas, was a decent raid tier which did a great job at relying on mechanical skill to pass, but the problem was the fights (and Alexander in general) was boring. This tier is too easy because mechanical skill isn't necessarily required and is far too forgiving, but I will say that the fights are more fun than the prior two tiers. When people are complaining about something being too easy, they're looking for a mechanically intensive challenge (i.e. Second Coil and Second Coil Savage)

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So you agree with me? A good solution was Midas difficult ( maybe just a bit less dps check but not like these : 0 checks) + Creator design?

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

So you agree with me? A good solution was Midas difficult ( maybe just a bit less dps check but not like these : 0 checks) + Creator design?

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Yeah, the problem with Midas wasn't difficulty really, it was just that you had to sometimes enter A6S.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

So you agree with me? A good solution was Midas difficult ( maybe just a bit less dps check but not like these : 0 checks) + Creator design?

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You should go DF groups on NORMAL...
Seeing enrage in 3 of 5 games and not enough DPS against Adds... doesnt matter which one, seen wipes in all of them!

Edit: You saying 0 checks - i guess: you are knowing that you lie!

alex down after 3 days ... how far we have come -.-*

i mean honestly its not really rocked sience. i get it that a3s maybe was a bit to hard and broke some raid groups but to turn down the diffitulcy even more after what we had in midas is just ridiculus. i just hope SE hurrys with the new expansion now because people will start to run off if they dont see a challenge anymore. and no i dont count it as a chellange if you clear wipe city on a monday. also is anyone else up for savage modes of the 24 people raids because we will need something to do in a month or two after we all have max gear and that would be one idea to hold the players.

While I don't see this as EoL for the game, it might be a shift of design philosophy, which in turn is something they should have been implementing earlier, rather at the twilight of the final few patches in 3.0

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Originally Posted by yamochan

alex down after 3 days ... how far we have come -.-*

i mean honestly its not really rocked sience. i get it that a3s maybe was a bit to hard and broke some raid groups but to turn down the diffitulcy even more after what we had in midas is just ridiculus. i just hope SE hurrys with the new expansion now because people will start to run off if they dont see a challenge anymore. and no i dont count it as a chellange if you clear wipe city on a monday. also is anyone else up for savage modes of the 24 people raids because we will need something to do in a month or two after we all have max gear and that would be one idea to hold the players.

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A lot of the problem with Midas was the damage done in Gordias. A lot of the truly committed raiders stayed and were mostly happy with Midas cept some issues I see recur on the forums. Mostly mech vomit in A8 and A6 being a wall. However by that time it was only the 1% that really cared.

They [devs] thought by getting rid of dps checks the raiding community would magically heal itself. It wasn't until they were forced [by the community] to reevaluate their own raid design decisions that Creator Savage took shape and tbh it was probably one of the better decisions they could have made.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

You should go DF groups on NORMAL...
Seeing enrage in 3 of 5 games and not enough DPS against Adds... doesnt matter which one, seen wipes in all of them!

Edit: You saying 0 checks - i guess: you are knowing that you lie!

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Infact this time Normal mode looks like a bit harder that's why i call creator Normal+ mode

Since plenty of people are complaining that some of us are whining about the ease, without going in, my MIDCORE raid group finally went in and cleared A9 and A10 cold, on 2 consecutive nights--something we've never done before with our 3-ish hour raids.

Oh, and we probably got through a third of the way through A11S after clearing A10...and while the fight (thankfully) looks a little harder (can it last us through the month at 9 hrs / week? I can hope, but I'm not holding my breath), our fears so far seem to be confirmed--this patch will be finished so early, I hope the expansion is coming before Christmas to keep us all interested. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Olympus

Since plenty of people are complaining that some of us are whining about the ease, without going in, my MIDCORE raid group finally went in and cleared A9 and A10 cold, on 2 consecutive nights--something we've never done before with our 3-ish hour raids.

Oh, and we probably got through a third of the way through A11S after clearing A10...and while the fight (thankfully) looks a little harder (can it last us through the month at 9 hrs / week? I can hope, but I'm not holding my breath), our fears so far seem to be confirmed--this patch will be finished so early, I hope the expansion is coming before Christmas to keep us all interested. :eek:

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Thath's the point , expansion won't come before 6 months and look , most of midcore statics are about to finish A11s not even 1 week after patch :) ( and some people keep saying the difficult is fine looool)

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Thath's the point , expansion won't come before 6 months and look , most of midcore statics are about to finish A11s not even 1 week after patch :) ( and some people keep saying the difficult is fine looool)

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My worst fears are rapidly being confirmed. No fun & challenging raid content for 5+ months? Even with my enjoyment of other content in the game, without the challenge of raids, I don't know what's going to keep us interested during that much downtime.

This tier is just.....meh.... midcore statics in 4 raiding sessions already on A11S (yes, me included). Can we get Midas difficulty back, please ? Clearing A9S in 7:30 with 238-240 ilv gear with NOTHING crafted and NO weps from Sophia extreme..... Thats pretty sad. Same goes for A10S but A10S was at least a bit fun.

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Originally Posted by Sphinx12

This tier is just.....meh.... midcore statics in 4 raiding sessions already on A11S (yes, me included). Can we get Midas difficulty back, please ? Clearing A9S in 7:30 with 238-240 ilv gear with NOTHING crafted and NO weps from Sophia extreme..... Thats pretty sad. Same goes for A10S but A10S was at least a bit fun.

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This never ceases to amaze me. Too hard or easy, there never seems to pleasing enough of people. Having artificial DPS checks are not a measure of difficulty- they are simply meant to gate content. People are freaking out that all this content was cleared within a few days, guess what? If Gordias and Midas didn't have silly dps checks, all the world first type groups would have cleared those fights just as quick as they did with Creator. They were merely held back because mathematically it was impossible for them to meet some checks without more gear. What does that have to do with the difficulty of the tier? It doesn't.

Oh excuse me, sir. Why we have better gear in this game ? When in the end we dont even need it. No point
Silly dps checks ? Please.... after Weeping was out there were no silly dps checks with everyone on 240 ilv. Still people didnt clear.....cuz they are lazy to learn their class or communicate with team. Simple as that.... People should stop compare difficulty and shit when they cant even play their class properly and are like "oh my gooood savage is so haaard i cant clear it...... Q_Q"

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

This never ceases to amaze me. Too hard or easy, there never seems to pleasing enough of people. Having artificial DPS checks are not a measure of difficulty- they are simply meant to gate content. People are freaking out that all this content was cleared within a few days, guess what? If Gordias and Midas didn't have silly dps checks, all the world first type groups would have cleared those fights just as quick as they did with Creator.

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Again looks like you don't know anything about this game , the highest difficult in a raid is to have a certain amount of dps while dealing with mechanics , in other terms you must be good while dealing with both , by the time u abolish the dps check it becomes a mathematical game where u have to resolve a puzzle just moving in and out having tons of time to do it cuz u don't care about skills

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Again looks like you don't know anything about this game , the highest difficult in a raid is to have a certain amount of dps while dealing with mechanics , in other terms you must be good while dealing with both , by the time u abolish the dps check it becomes a mathematical game where u have to resolve a puzzle just moving in and out having tons of time to do it cuz u don't care about skills

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That's not what he said. Like at all. He was simply saying that the content is being passed so quickly this time around is because of the removal of DPS checks, which would have put the 2 previous Alexander tiers in very similar boats in clear speed if their DPS checks weren't existent either.. The top players going for world first were bound by artificial difficulty, not by their limitations as players.

Also, it's immensely ignorant to assume he's a bad player for wanting more players to enjoy content. Welcome to an MMO, Bucko. It's a community game and you're being a diva.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

That's not what he said. Like at all. He was simply saying that the content is being passed so quickly this time around is because of the removal of DPS checks, which would have put the 2 previous Alexander tiers in very similar boats in clear speed if their DPS checks weren't existent either.. The top players going for world first were bound by artificial difficulty, not by their limitations as players.

Also, it's immensely ignorant to assume he's a bad player for wanting more players to enjoy content. Welcome to an MMO, Bucko. It's a community game and you're being a diva.

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He said having artificial dps is not a difficult he is wrong, the amount of dps required is what makes mechanics even harder to execute.

Let me be clear about myself this time.. I'm very happy when i see people go raid!! I'mnot happy when my fc friends ( yes i'm in 1 of the most social/casual fc on Ragnarok server ) who have their softcore statics tell me :" we cleared A9s in 1 hour and that's not a good thing". I'm reporting the fact that most of people are disappointed

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Let me be clear about myself this time.. I'm very happy when i see people go raid!! I'mnot happy when my fc friends ( yes i'm in 1 of the most social/casual fc on Ragnarok server ) who have their softcore statics tell me :" we cleared A9s in 1 hour and that's not a good thing". I'm reporting the fact that most of people are disappointed

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Most people I see ain't disappointed. That's the funny thing about our subjective senses, just because you know some people who are disappointed doesn't mean that most people are. It's asinine really.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

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As you should be, more people raiding means a healthier game. What you fail to understand is that at this point in time, this is exactly what the game needed. Midas killed the raiding community. It hadn't even recovered fully from Gordias, which made things worse. They needed to draw people back into the raiding scene. I think you also misunderstand me- I want there to be super challenging end game content available for people who want a challenge. Truly, I want this more than anything. But there MUST be a middle ground- and normal difficulty is not middle ground. A perfect middle ground would be something along the lines of what WoW has right now, they have 4 difficulties. While at first that sounds like too much, when you understand how it all works, it keeps EVERYONE happy.

Now with that being said- WoW had over 240 game developers working on the last expansion. I'm sure this is more than double the entire team that Yoshi currently has. So creating so many difficulties may be completely impossible without more manpower and creativity.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Most people I see ain't disappointed. That's the funny thing about our subjective senses, just because you know some people who are disappointed doesn't mean that most people are. It's asinine really.

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Maybe you are right about this but.. If i see a lot of NON hardcore players who are disappointed can i start thinkin about that's a common feelings? Maybe it's only luck i found all the midcore guys who are disappointed maybe i found the 1% of them or.. Maybe im right

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

Maybe you are right about this but.. If i see a lot of NON hardcore players who are disappointed can i start thinkin about that's a common feelings? Maybe it's only luck i found all the midcore guys who are disappointed maybe i found the 1% of them or.. Maybe im right

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By that logic, maybe I'm right? (Rhetorical heh.)

That kind of argument is spinning in circles on the spot. You're not going anywhere you haven't been because you're right because you're right.

If we went by your idea that the people who are counted are only the people you come into contact with, then even these forums with "likes" tend to not favor you over people who disagree with you. But there's more to it than just people we know complaining sometimes.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

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I have a wish.. People should trust more in expert players opinions , most of us have been raiding since 2 years.. They should trust us when we say this is too easy even for you guys! This time that famous 1% who were able to clear will turn in the 1% who will find a decent challenge from this! . i'dont know this but .. If the majority of players cares nothing about the challenge and they only want the drops than i should just shut up but if even you guys are looking for a decent challenge for you than i will keep say this is not good even for you.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

I have a wish.. People should trust more in expert players opinions , most of us have been raiding since 2 years.. They should trust us when we say this is too easy even for you guys! This time that famous 1% who were able to clear will turn in the 1% who will find a decent challenge from this! . i'dont know this but .. If the majority of players cares nothing about the challenge and they only want the drops than i should just shut up but if even you guys are looking for a decent challenge for you than i will keep say this is not good even for you.

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I can't help but feel you either didn't read my post, or just failed to understand it.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

I have a wish.. People should trust more in expert players opinions , most of us have been raiding since 2 years.. They should trust us when we say this is too easy even for you guys! This time that famous 1% who were able to clear will turn in the 1% who will find a decent challenge from this! . i'dont know this but .. If the majority of players cares nothing about the challenge and they only want the drops than i should just shut up but if even you guys are looking for a decent challenge for you than i will keep say this is not good even for you.

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Oh I think you misunderstand. I love a challenge, but I'm advocating for the betterment of the many instead of the happiness of a few. I've been playing this game since day one and started raiding in Coil on the day it was released. I may not be the best player in the world but I have participated in all the raids thus far. Having said that, you're assuming that ALL players approach difficulty the same way and on the same playing field while it's simply cut and cold fact that "challenge" is different for everyone, so that dismantles the idea that this "too easy" tier isn't a challenge for others.

Plus you're sounding kind of silly with the circular logic of "I'm the 1%, so I know whats good for the 1%". Buddy, we're talking about BEYOND the 1%, what reasoning is there in blindly following the word of someone who's only goal is to preach difficulty that is out of bounds for anyone but the few? Sounds awfully silly to me.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

I can't help but feel you either didn't read my post, or just failed to understand it.

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I did it but i wanted some1 to quote for say something else completly different :p

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Oh I think you misunderstand. I love a challenge, but I'm advocating for the betterment of the many instead of the happiness of a few. I've been playing this game since day one and started raiding in Coil on the day it was released. I may not be the best player in the world but I have participated in all the raids thus far. Having said that, you're assuming that ALL players approach difficulty the same way and on the same playing field while it's simply cut and cold fact that "challenge" is different for everyone, so that dismantles the idea that this "too easy" tier isn't a challenge for others.

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No that's not what i mean ever1 has different of opinion of the challenge but there are Objective things that u can't ignore , it was clear to every1 that Gordias was extremly hard on the other side u can't ignore the fact that Creator is extremly easy considering that in few weeks ever1 is gonna be ilv 250+.

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

I have a wish.. People should trust more in expert players opinions , most of us have been raiding since 2 years.. They should trust us when we say this is too easy even for you guys! This time that famous 1% who were able to clear will turn in the 1% who will find a decent challenge from this! . i'dont know this but .. If the majority of players cares nothing about the challenge and they only want the drops than i should just shut up but if even you guys are looking for a decent challenge for you than i will keep say this is not good even for you.

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They should, but that's in the case of the "expert players" being the target audience. While originally, Savage may have indeed been for the best of the best, like with Gordias upon release, those same "expert players" may not be the target audience anymore. That is, not the only targeted audience for the content.

As has been stated time and time again, this game has never been marketed to appease the hardcore challenge type of crowd. They've never released a "Prepare to Die" type of promotion that Dark Souls did. While they do want to make those players happy, they're not a priority. Assuming that this tiers difficulty is as intended (for the most part), then you have your proof on not being who they are catering to.

That's not to say they might not release Midas/Gordias tier of difficulty in the future, but it's just not something you're guaranteed to receive. Nothing about Savage difficulty is something you are guaranteed to receive as expected. That's just the nature of any product you purchase that you are not privy to before purchase.

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Originally Posted by Sphinx12

Oh excuse me, sir. Why we have better gear in this game ? When in the end we dont even need it. No point

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Wait, what?!
I can clearly remember "hardcores" claim there HAVE TO BE the best gear ever possible gated behind the HARDEST content possible!
So, now you complain that the gear you will get is of no use?!
Sorry sir, but i fail to understand your logic...

Well, if you just like to have something no other can get and to show how great you are, then it may explains it...

We are playing a RPG and its not gear what drives most players, it is to experience an adventure!
It is Character development and roleplaying... so called "progress"
Some challenge themselves with going alone into content you should go in groups, or undergeared or speedrunning...
To claim challenge is only when you have an exclusive content no other can beat - then i wonder if you really seek for challenge!

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Originally Posted by Pasquale

(..) that in few weeks ever1 is gonna be ilv 250+.

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Once again you just argue from your point of view:
True, server first kills who can beat all savage will be geared in nearly "no time" (if they have luck with RNG) but most who can clear the content need longer than a month to clear all and even then its gated behind weekly loot - you will not get such a high iLvL within 4 weeks if you are not in a server first group!

You are so out of reality...

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

Omg three more months until something new.

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Uhm. The next patch doesn't offer meaningful content for Savage raiders. The next content will be the new "Savage" in the expansion or whatever it will be called.

A Savage raid should last around 3-5 month for a regular mid tier raid group.