Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

And imo, it should be removed while in a group because the healers job is meant to heal

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I prefer not playing as healer then since DPS + Healer is my reason to main SCH.

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Originally Posted by Eul

I prefer not playing as healer then since DPS + Healer is my reason to main SCH.

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I know right. I started reading this and thought, is he talking about me, until I came to the part where healer is raging about the tank. I wouldn't, I just throw some defensive spells and top him up, and back to the Cleric Stance I go. But I'm a scholar so Idk. I think it is easiest for scholars to dps.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

isnt that already the case ? yeah it is, look at all the people using unwanted parsers that get rid of whoever is not meeting the DPS check ? yeah is already being done.

Making sense no, but is done on a daily basis though..not sure what your point is...so yeah some stuff in here is silly beyond words...but people do silly things reglularly especially when it comes to point fingers at othrs and their abilities of playing this game. Making sense ? no but is still a reality.

Bad design is to allow cleric stance altogether in a dungeon, cleric stance only if you are soloing stuff in open world out of dungeons or groups, yes then yes I would agree. But as long as cleric stance exists we will have exchange of views between people that regards healers dpsing as THE thing to do if not they deserve a kick, making sense ? no but is done regularly...yes?

This topic has been used re-used --spoken upside down backwards and forwards...point is ...we have cleric stance and healers can use, the *should they* is totally depending on THEM and not what others want them to do..in my opinionBad design is to allow cleric stance altogether in a dungeon, cleric stance only if you are soloing stuff in open world out of dungeons or groups, yes then yes I would agree. But as long as cleric stance exists we will have exchange of views between people that regards healers dpsing as THE thing to do if not they deserve a kick, making sense ? no but is done regularly...yes?

This topic has been used re-used --spoken upside down backwards and forwards...point is ...we have cleric stance and healers can use, the *should they* is totally depending on THEM and not what others want them to do..in my opinion

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Thank you so much for articulating this. So true.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

isnt that already the case ? yeah it is, look at all the people using unwanted parsers that get rid of whoever is not meeting the DPS check ? yeah is already being done.

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What's your solution, then? Disbanding the entire group because 1 person is vastly underperforming and the group keeps wiping because DPS checks aren't being met, or is it telling everyone else who's already carrying their weight to work harder and leave the underperformer alone? If a tank is not keeping agro and letting the boss run amok, or getting 1 shot by tank busters (something outside the healers' control), they get blamed by everyone. If a healer is constantly letting people die from forced damage, they get blamed as well, like they both should be. Tell me why it's ok to take away the only responsibility that a damage dealer has.

Now, about cleric stance, yes, the person has to be comfortable with it, but the context matters greatly. The new dungeons plainly do not require a lot of healing to be done. So when the healer just stands there doing absolutely nothing for 10+ seconds, it's nice of them to help out the group by not ignoring half their skillset. Standing there doing nothing for that long is lazy. Then there are SCH's in low level dungeons who set the tank to follow and watch TV or do something else for the whole dungeon run while not helping out. How is that OK?

Should healers be "required" to DPS? No, not exactly, but when the downtime between your heals is so big that you are just standing there with absolutely nothing to do, you SHOULD DPS, much like damage dealers in the group won't just auto-attack or use random skills because a dungeon has no DPS check and their DPS isn't "required", and any tank worth their salt won't spam their agro combo again and again while ignoring their utility combos.

The best healers are those who make the most use of their time while performing their duties in the content they're participating in. This can include but not limited to:

1. Providing additional healing because the people they're partied with are playing terribly and they require more healing attention because of this
2. Providing additional DPS to the group because the group is performing well, handling mechanics appropriately, and tanks are mitigating as necessary. Healer's have the opportunity to add value to the group by providing additional DPS.
3. Allowing MP to regenerate. There's a particularly healing intensive section coming up soon and the healer notices they're a bit short on MP. Give everything a small break to prepare for the oncoming onslaught.
4. Etc.

The best healers in this game are always trying to think 3-4 steps ahead and understanding what actions to perform when to maximize their contribution to their group. These are also the type healer's all players should strive to become.

Healer's who refuse to DPS when the opportunities present themselves are lazy. The only exception I'll give to this is if the healer is new to the content because healer's only become better as they understand the intricacies of the content they're participating in. Otherwise, yes, you're performing your baseline role and I won't begrudge you for that but you certainly won't get my commend.

Likewise, other's who are pushing healer's to DPS harder when there are no opportunities to do so because the party play is so horrible the only thing a healer can do is heal need to shut up and man up to give the healer those windows else you're just as ignorant and/or lazy as the group above this paragraph. Healer DPS is a group thing. If the party isn't performing well, then that limits how often a healer can enter Cleric Stance (if at all).

If you aren't actively attempting to become better as player and/or healer and find those opportunities that allows you to perform much better, then please stop whining and go away.

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Originally Posted by Odett

What's your solution, then? Disbanding the entire group because 1 person is vastly underperforming and the group keeps wiping because DPS checks aren't being met, or is it telling everyone else who's already carrying their weight to work harder and leave the underperformer alone? If a tank is not keeping agro and letting the boss run amok, or getting 1 shot by tank busters (something outside the healers' control), they get blamed by everyone. If a healer is constantly letting people die from forced damage, they get blamed as well, like they both should be. Tell me why it's ok to take away the only responsibility that a damage dealer has.

Now, about cleric stance, yes, the person has to be comfortable with it, but the context matters greatly. The new dungeons plainly do not require a lot of healing to be done. So when the healer just stands there doing absolutely nothing for 10+ seconds, it's nice of them to help out the group by not ignoring half their skillset. Standing there doing nothing for that long is lazy. Then there are SCH's in low level dungeons who set the tank to follow and watch TV or do something else for the whole dungeon run while not helping out. How is that OK?

Should healers be "required" to DPS? No, not exactly, but when the downtime between your heals is so big that you are just standing there with absolutely nothing to do, you SHOULD DPS, much like damage dealers in the group won't just auto-attack or use random skills because a dungeon has no DPS check and their DPS isn't "required", and any tank worth their salt won't spam their agro combo again and again while ignoring their utility combos.

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100% true
in the new dungeons and in many other dungeons, there is nothing to heal, so it's just lazy, when the healers do nothing in 90% of the time
it's unfair for the rest of the group

healer is the easiest job in this game..

My stand in this question regardless its raiding or a 4-man dungeon a healer is there first most to heal party members and Not DPS

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Originally Posted by Campi

healer is the easiest job in this game..

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Have you ever healed a raid, or EX primal while it is the newest and most challenging content?

As a NIN all you do is DPS and dodge. I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

Have you ever healed a raid, or EX primal while it is the newest and most challenging content?

As a NIN all you do is DPS and dodge. I'll leave it at that.

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Yes I already healed a raid or EX primals
I played all 3 jobs and to play a tank or heal is much easier than playing a DPS class to its full potential while doing all mechanics :)

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Originally Posted by Campi

I played all 3 jobs and to play a tank or heal is much easier than playing a DPS class to its full potential while doing all mechanics :)

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I find it slightly amusing that in addition to you thinking this, you've listed NIN as your primary class. So despite maining NIN (according to your forum profile, at least), you still find it easier to tank or heal. That's... actually saying something, doesn't it?

Then again, I main WAR, but if I'm having an off day, or if I'm forced to go into a duty without a healer I know... I prefer to heal ^^; Much less stressful, for me. (Mainly because I'm not comfortable leading, so being forced to judge how much I can pull when I have no clue as to the healer's opinion and ability... is stressful. So much easier to just go with what a tank wants. If it's a good tank, it'll leave me time to dps. If it's a bad/overconfident tank, I'll just throw in some MiasmaII and Shadowflare and focus on healing, while Selene helps speed up the damage :p )

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

I find it slightly amusing that in addition to you thinking this, you've listed NIN as your primary class. So despite maining NIN (according to your forum profile, at least), you still find it easier to tank or heal. That's... actually saying something, doesn't it?

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I don't know what that says to you, but for me it's just my favorite class ;)

Do you just play WAR because it's easy to play, or because it makes the most fun to play with it? ö.ö

Someone: Healers aren't meant to dps! They shouldnt let them use cleric stance in dungeons

Square Enix: The training area for beginners suggests dpsing in downtime for healers

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Originally Posted by Campi

I don't know what that says to you, but for me it's just my favorite class ;)

Do you just play WAR because it's easy to play, or because it makes the most fun to play with it? ö.ö

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Oh and also about this whole thing. What jobs are easy to one player and hard to that player may be the complete opposite to another. One may find healing easy and dps hard while another may find it the exact opposite

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

Have you ever healed a raid, or EX primal while it is the newest and most challenging content?

As a NIN all you do is DPS and dodge. I'll leave it at that.

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As a main healer on A7S enrage, yes healing is the easiest job in this game because it's pass or fail, the thing that adds any difficulty whatsoever is trying to maximize DPS while healing and that's what makes someone a good healer. It's sad that it being so easy to be "good enough" draws so many lazy players to the role. ><

Being a DPS and putting up GOOD numbers in real content is to me very difficult, and that seems to be the same to a very large chunk of the player base so I don't think it's just me.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Unfortunately, in this game mediocre DPS are celebrated since they give healers/tanks more to do via happily shoving all the leg work off on their cohorts, while DPS that actually either want to approve, or are actually competent at their jobs, are condemned because they take away from what healers could be doing

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I'm a DPS that tries really hard to push the top numbers. For every micro input in the entire instance. I study rotations, try new things. Read the findings of others.

No one condemns me because your scenario doesn't exist.

A healer who likes to DPS and heal. Gets teamed with a good DPS. What really happens is they continue to DPS and heal and we get done EVEN faster. Just because I dPS good doesn't mean the healer suddenly can't still help dPS...

I'm going to admit it: I'm a career healer and I was dead-against this healer-as-dps mentality for the longest time. I signed up to do one job, I thought. I'm also a casual scrub, I might add, so I also thought that cleric stance-dancing was a mob mentality of hardcore raiders.

But you know what? There is nothing worse than standing around with a full bar of mana, casting benefic on a tank that took one shot from a mob. It's soooo boring. So I adopted the mob mentality and I actually find dungeons to be a lot more enjoyable now.

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

It's sad that it being so easy to be "good enough" draws so many lazy players to the role. ><

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Not sure if I can deliver this message, but being a good healer in FF is very complicated. While I agree that performing DPS as a healer while maintaining everyone healthy is hard. But I value that player more before his role.. Actually, I value both very closely. People think, healer = heal. That's where they are wrong and that's why we have only few players who stay on top. It's more than just healing, more than just DPS, it's about knowing every mechanic and constantly predict moves and act before any damage hit. If you play a healer in very high end raid, you are not only limited to easy heal, but you have to constantly analyze all players position, check their status, remove any debuffs and mitigate damage, perform DPS where you can. It's really stressful unless you are in good party. Those kind of things make healer really difficult to play.

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

Those kind of things make healer really difficult to play.

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High end anything can become difficult to play for most people. Player awareness, mob/mechanic awareness. DMG mitigation. DPSing. Is a job all members of the party have.

You cast eye for an eye on tank. A good monk will pop fist of earth before big damage then switch back. Or mantra before big raid wide damage happens.

I know you're arguing against someone who claims they're easy, but the context of the OP is in casual content tho.

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Likewise, other's who are pushing healer's to DPS harder when there are no opportunities to do so because the party play is so horrible the only thing a healer can do is heal need to shut up and man up to give the healer those windows else you're just as ignorant and/or lazy as the group above this paragraph. Healer DPS is a group thing. If the party isn't performing well, then that limits how often a healer can enter Cleric Stance (if at all).

If you aren't actively attempting to become better as player and/or healer and find those opportunities that allows you to perform much better, then please stop whining and go away.

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*claps* This so much this. I hear so much from other people on how Healers need to DPS but are YOU doing all you can to let them DPS? Are you using your cool downs to take less damage? Are you avoiding all possible AOES? Do you have the right gear? Are you pulling what you can handle and not pulling what you can't? In order for healers to even have the free time to be able to DPS the entire party itself needs to be doing the best they can. Of course this varies with content, but before you start demanding Healers should be DPS you should be making sure you're not making them heal you because you can't dodge!

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

Although I do not think a healer should ever let a tank's health fall so dangerously low...I've done it on accident before, but never on purpose.

Well, except that one time when the tank got really mouthy and forgot who it was that was keeping him alive. But other than that, no, I never want to see my tank at death's door.

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As a DRK main, I personally don't mind how low my hp gets -- so long as the healer is pumping out DPS like a boss. 3k? 1k hp? It doesn't matter so long as I'm alive. I pop CD's regularly so I know that if I die, it's on the healer lol. On the other hand, when I see a healer who is letting me get low and is parsing at ZERO, it makes me want to stomp on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Healers are already struggling with accuracy checks, they can hit a few times now if they actually meld +acc materia but I doubt that is the devs design choice for healers.

Just wait till next patch or something when you need 750+ acc to even land a basic spell, then this thread will dissapear as the healers will not be able to hit a single dungeon or raid mob even if they meld acc in every single materia slot.

Cleric stance was designed to help healers level, not to carry awful dps.

And imo, it should be removed while in a group because the healers job is meant to heal, and the tanks job is meant to tank, hence the changes to tank dmg, healers are next, do your job properly or play a dps.

Can't count how many times I've seen wipes in basic dungeons because the healer thought there 1k crits meant something, left cleric on, and wiped the group, bad design and it needs correcting immediately.

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Here is a screenshot from the Hall of the Novice, Healer section.

http://i.imgur.com/aIAPVbV.png

Did you catch that? Here it is again.

http://i.imgur.com/aIAPVbV.png

Here, I'll post it again.

http://i.imgur.com/aIAPVbV.png

One more time!

http://i.imgur.com/aIAPVbV.png

:rolleyes:

In summary,

http://i.imgur.com/aIAPVbV.png

Except for the fact that you have no accuracy and in the next patch or so you will be hitting nothing,

pretty sad that I can leave this thread for a day and some kids are still quoting me cuz there is no one left to quote.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Except for the fact that you have no accuracy and in the next patch or so you will be hitting nothing,

pretty sad that I can leave this thread for a day and some kids are still quoting me cuz there is no one left to quote.

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o rly

http://i.imgur.com/uh0hW0Z.png

http://i.imgur.com/jV020TD.png

I ran new expert dungeon. Healer didn't dps. Bard and drg, he was telling tank to pull more even though he wasn't gunna help out dps. He'd put 2 HoTs on the tank and still spam cure 1 and 2 on the opening trash groups of 3 mobs trying to look busy. So... pls dps there's loooots of time for it in the new runs. So you might miss a few attacks oh noes!!! Run will still be over a lot faster

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Originally Posted by Heartley

o rly

http://i.imgur.com/uh0hW0Z.png

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http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/...151f775d_m.gif

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Except for the fact that you have no accuracy and in the next patch or so you will be hitting nothing,

pretty sad that I can leave this thread for a day and some kids are still quoting me cuz there is no one left to quote.

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It's pretty sad that a child like you can't substantiate your claim that we'll need 750+ accuracy in the next patch and the only way you can prove a point is to over-exaggerate your claim to get the attention you've garnered in this thread. Let alone the fact that "healers have no Accuracy" is factually false as S-E has given us the option to meld accuracy (as shown from other posters).

On your post you just sound like a sound like a child who's bitter that they got paired with some terrible healers which are the exception and not the norm.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

pretty sad that I can leave this thread for a day and some kids are still quoting me cuz there is no one left to quote.

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Its a forum, this is what happens on a forum. I do not know what you expected. People to ignore your message? If that was the case why post in the first place...?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It's pretty sad that a child like you can't substantiate your claim that we'll need 750+ accuracy in the next patch and the only way you can prove a point is to over-exaggerate your claim to get the attention you've garnered in this thread. Let alone the fact that "healers have no Accuracy" is factually false as S-E has given us the option to meld accuracy (as shown from other posters).

On your post you just sound like a sound like a child who's bitter that they got paired with some terrible healers which are the exception and not the norm.

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Basically, "for the next Expert Dungeons/Void Ark part two, casters will need more accuracy than tanks need for A8S, the top raid of the patch cycle, a thing that has never happened in the history of the game."

Seems legit.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

You cast eye for an eye on tank. A good monk will pop fist of earth before big damage then switch back. Or mantra before big raid wide damage happens.

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Not so much for an argument, but healers are not the same as other jobs, I don't want to categorize them the same, even tho, they all play exact same high end content. From healer's point of view, you are required to play even harder than other jobs. Because you are tracking other players condition, location while healing and dealing damage ontop of mitigating damage and completing each (step) mechanic. Your eye movements/awareness/button smashing are far more complicated than other jobs. Because 2 healers managed to complete hardest end game content, it doesn't automatically promote them as good players. For me, it's how they performed and completed It, is what important.

No, you are incorrect, your reasoning is misguided.

The norm has always been to not sit idly.
If you have time to stand about doing nothing, then that time is better spent doing something. If no healing is necessary, you make it so other things die faster, thus, dealing less damage, and requiring less healing.

I've always been of the opinion that preventing damage is just as important as curing damage, and thus, falls under the umbrella of the healer.

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

Because 2 healers managed to complete hardest end game content, it doesn't automatically promote them as good players. For me, it's how they performed and completed It, is what important.

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Ikr, so many "bad" healers on the top 5 world palmares that it's really disturbing. C'mon. Not buying that.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

pretty sad that I can leave this thread for a day and some kids are still quoting me cuz there is no one left to quote.

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Who doesn't get bored when your job is only healing and not dpsing while your party's tank HP is full all time? But nevermind you're leaving tho.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Who doesn't get bored when your job is only healing and not dpsing while your party's tank HP is full all time? But nevermind you're leaving tho.

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O/

I get bored doing someone else's job because they're too lazy to do it themselves, as it just promotes less awareness for everyone and more DPS to be incompetent!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

O/

I get bored doing someone else's job because they're too lazy to do it themselves, as it just promotes less awareness for everyone and more DPS to be incompetent!

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There can't be too much dps, things can always die faster.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

O/

I get bored doing someone else's job because they're too lazy to do it themselves, as it just promotes less awareness for everyone and more DPS to be incompetent!

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Much dps -> kill faster -> clear faster -> more free time!

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Originally Posted by demonette

There can't be too much dps, things can always die faster.

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If I have time to turn on Cleric Stance, no one's getting commended. And sure, there's no such thing as too much DPS, I DPS pretty much constantly as a healer, but that doesn't mean DPSing is engaging when I have literally nothing to watch for, and can DPS with one hand while reading a book with the other.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If I have time to turn on Cleric Stance, no one's getting commended. And sure, there's no such thing as too much DPS, I DPS pretty much constantly as a healer, but that doesn't mean DPSing is engaging when I have literally nothing to watch for, and can DPS with one hand while reading a book with the other.

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In the current dungeons, if the tank is doing their job right, you won't be casting heals non-stop. So what are you wanting, the ability to pay attention to that book with both hands?

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Originally Posted by Wolrok

In the current dungeons, if the tank is doing their job right, you won't be casting heals non-stop. So what are you wanting, the ability to pay attention to that book with both hands?

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Well I mean, I'm already DPSing with one hand while I read with the other. Personally, I want dungeons to get more healing intensive so I actually have to pay attention rather than just Hoy Spam.

The only reason why healers have the ability to DPS is so they are able to solo content, not to deal DPS in party's. Now if that healer is comfortable and he wishes to do some DPS in there then that's fine he has that ability. But the Healer main job is to heal not to DPS. Did Pre-Alpha/Beata-4 and the reason the job was deigned in this manner was to give the healers the ability to be able to solo content like everyone else. This is why they have the ability to DPS. People really need to stop making jobs into whatever they want and play it as intended.