Why do so many people FAIL at dps.

And i thought they were just materia farming...

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I do not Raid myself, so when I go DF or PF for a dungeon or something, and they start questioning why my NIN is doing 1179 dps versus 1300 dps

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Never seen someone complain about anyone doing above 1000 dps on single, or for being 50 dps under their theoretical max EVEN in raids. It's more like when healers do 0 dps on bosses (where pull size doesn't enter calculations), when dps do 300-600 dps on bosses while not being dead, in i200 gear. Exceptions for some vanish-heavy bosses like the first of Neverreap (kinda breaks rotation every damn time) where 800-900 might be pretty reasonable.

If the healer is able to outdps you (and I have seen 600 dps Scholars in DF expert/lv 60), yeah, you're not even trying. And some mechanics (like Rose Dip or the adds at Belladonna) *can* wipe for lack of dps.

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Originally Posted by feint2021

Incorrect.

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First thing first are you consider a good player? Since I see on this thread people likes to frame orthers by using logs. How can I be sure you are good casual player? that you havent get critisices that you took bad or good?
My apologies but I cant take what you said seriously, I dont know you. How can I know you are just doing this to bother, beacuse you cant accept that you might not play good and you dont want to get corrected?

Second, what Pinkie saind and I totaly agreed, is thatwe can easely learn all jobs. If a persons is decent and capable, it can all be done my himself.
If you play the game slowly, if you have dummies, if you do your jobs quests correctly and slowly, if tests your skills, if you practise on dungeons/trails, if you accept your mistakes, if you take advice, if you search and loog for rotation guides, doing all this a player can become decent at his job. So yes the only thing that doesnt let you become a good player is yourselfs. Most players fail and arent good beacause they skip most of this things are pointed, beacuse they didnt notice, are lazy or dont even care.

I dont say that eveyone can become good by themselfs, sure some people will need more help and advice. But is more than clear than most of us can learn job to play by yourselfs.

Again I'm not talking about transforming all of us into hardcore players. Only into normal players that play their job normaly.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Again sorry, I won't ever even speak about this again, even if people are afk auto attacking, I have no right to say anything like you said or anyone else said to me for I am not a great dps, i'm just like them it seems, ones that afk dps or don't try even if I do my very best.
Again, I'm sorry.

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Just ignore. Dont say sorry. You are giving them what they want.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Pinkie, I feel bad for you due to how the post turned out. But please see it from our perspectives.

As a DPS myself, I tried healing, and I struggle with some content. I can tank a little, but not all content. I can also learn a fight faster as a dps, in this case, NIN. I think your perspective is set this way because it sound like you play all roles equally, so you expect others to play that role the same. Being a dps main, topics like this offends many of us, and most of the community are dominantly dps players. There's always going to be complaints in any role.

- The tank lost aggro on a pull; he's bad or lazy.
- The healer tossed one Stone too many and couldn't get Benediction off; he's bad or lazy.
- The tank is wearing VIT accessories in a dungeon; he's lazy.
- The DRG used Jump at the wrong time, so he got caught in the AoE; he's bad because he don't know the enemy.

These things list are considered mistakes at times. "The NIN is 6 on the hate list." Why? Because the tank set his pull macro for 20 seconds, but he pulled at 10 seconds. Mudras wasn't ready. Used Shadewalker on the tank. Had to get in melee range. Those three things happened while those who normally play with that tank knew he was pulling at 10 and were already prepared.

Think about this:

Someone who fulltimes a DPS may not always give 100% depending on the content. Some of us get "lazy" to the point where we only mainly use our heavy-hitters on the trash instead of full rotations. This may or may not include dots. If you're performing YOUR best, they might be performing THEIR best. YOUR best shouldn't include watching if I'm keeping up Huton, or question why I use Kassatsu + Doton on grouped mobs.

Personally, I just don't care how most people play. The dps complaints mostly stem from Raid content, then that mentality is brought over to lesser content like dungeons. Many people who don't Raid do not Raid for a reason, and they care less about what others say about how they play in lesser content. I do not Raid myself, so when I go DF or PF for a dungeon or something, and they start questioning why my NIN is doing 1179 dps versus 1300 dps, I still remain quiet, because if I just do a /sit, then I'm doing 0 damage, and that'll REALLY give them something to get mad about.

Or, I could suggest to them that I can leave and they find a replacement. Sometimes, that gets them upset, too, because now that got to wait an hour for the PF to fill again. And guess what? Waiting around doing nothing grants you zero dps anyway. I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS stress if people have issues with how others play, then they should stick with their group instead of pugging.

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Thank you so much for your comment, thats is part of what I tried to say. I agree with comment, we can ignore on how people play most of the time, and sometimes give a little help or a guide.
But if we meet with someone who has none experience or is only auto atacking or being carried/trolling in content of lvl51+, tell me how can we ignore that? Wasnt that the point of Pinki's thread?
To make everyone clear a difference between this 2 kinds of low players?

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Yup. We totally want and encourage people to be lazy and bad.


*GIGANTIC EYE ROLL*

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Are you intentionally oblivious to all the comments of players attacking people who are advocating better play/asking for DPS to have responsibilites and the "they pay the monthly fee so they can play how they want" crowd?

DISCLAIMER: I did NOT bother reading all 29 pages of drivel.

Honestly when I come across a player and I notice that they are doing sub-par. whether that be because the mobs are dieing slow, I see them not using any skills, or my 6th sense kicks in and i know their numbers (im basically a super hero) i kinda just suck it up and carry. If people are such god-tier players that they claim to be then this should be a walk in the park, hell even an average player can carry people through anything, but Savage and maybe thordan EX. If its Duty finder suck it up or leave and if its PF i usually remove and b-list.

I do agree that players need a better metric on what a "good" player looks like whether that be the implementation of a parser or a grading system or something.

I also dont mind if people choose to play however they want. They just wont be playing with me.

EDIT: I was notified that I may be insulting people at the beginning of my post, I did not mean that to anyone personally more towards the idea of the conversation in which i think kind of pointless.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Are you intentionally oblivious to all the comments of players attacking people who are advocating better play/asking for DPS to have responsibilites and the "they pay the monthly fee so they can play how they want" crowd?

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If this were a single player video game console, I would agree with you 100%, but this is a mmo that you need to interact with people. It doesn't make sense for people saying, "I do t really need to talk to anyone to have some time of socialization". Even if a player just does MB and DoL/DoH, they will interact with people if they want to make a profit such as make pf offering their services.

Even a person, in real life, living by themselves need to interact with others, and they need to do it in a "normal" way as our society has established or you isolate itself and become that minor group of ppl the rest just don't want to be around.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

On your point about crafting and gathering it doesn't go both ways in the slightest. Those are solo tasks. They don't involve anyone but yourself. The reason people don't "slam" people for it is because it doesn't effect anyone but themselves.

Combat on the other hand does not just effect you. You go into a duty with 3/7/23 other people. To simply not do what your class is supposed to do because you 'don't care' as you put it is extremely rude to the other people you get in your duty. Im fine with people being new to the game, I'm fine with people not being as good as others. There comes a limit however where you can't just expect people to put up with it. If someone is doing less damage at 60 than people were doing at 50 then something is really, really wrong.

Also to ask why other people should care? maybe cause its not NPCs in your duties but actually people?

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I don't entirely agree but ok maybe it doesn't go both ways in the way most people would think. People being bad or lazy at crafting does effect everyone though. But even if it didn't some people play to craft and their DoW/DoM classes are a side thing. If they want to play the bare minimum when it comes to DoW/M classes because that's not what they play for fun I don't blame them. If someone doesn't like that they are free to leave the duty (or vote kick but I usually avoid that cause harassment claims). Others just play a couple hours each session maybe 2-3 days a week because to them the game is an escape from life, not life itself. A lot of these people don't like the game to be super hard or to have to think about skill rotations and other complicated stuff. Just log in, press buttons, watch pretty lights. It does drive me crazy sometimes and I'm not saying they all have good excuses. It makes me sad that some content gets nerfed to cater to this but I have to remember that SE is making their game accessible to everyone they can. The pro players still get their savage primals and raids. What I think this game really needs is an easy mode, a normal mode, and a hard mode for all DF content with rewards scaled to match. If the "bads" don't want to put in as much effort as other players they wouldn't need top tier gear to clear their easy content anyway. And any complaints from them about how top gear is gated behind content that is too hard should be ignored by SE. It's there for them to get if they put in the time or effort. Story related content for game progression could have a difficulty setting as well for those who may or may not want the extra challenge.

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Originally Posted by ChalupaBatman

DISCLAIMER: I did NOT bother reading all 29 pages of drivel.

Honestly when I come across a player and I notice that they are doing sub-par. whether that be because the mobs are dieing slow, I see them not using any skills, or my 6th sense kicks in and i know their numbers (im basically a super hero) i kinda just suck it up and carry. If people are such god-tier players that they claim to be then this should be a walk in the park, hell even an average player can carry people through anything, but Savage and maybe thordan EX. If its Duty finder suck it up or leave and if its PF i usually remove and b-list.

I do agree that players need a better metric on what a "good" player looks like whether that be the implementation of a parser or a grading system or something.

I also dont mind if people choose to play however they want. They just wont be playing with me.

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Whilst I agree with the sentiment of your post I do hope you realise that by insulting everyone else in the thread at the start of your post makes you look like an idiot.

I'm quite sure all the parsers have been wrong and been parsing wrong numbers. I can't think of why a dps would be that bad otherwise.

10/10

Worth reading every page. XD

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

I'm quite sure all the parsers have been wrong and been parsing wrong numbers. I can't think of why a dps would be that bad otherwise.

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We can only hope.

Since I started the grind for the relic. This is the conclusion I have arrived at. People don't give 2 cents about others and if they can get away with getting carried they will do as little as possible. I have been grinding dungeons as a DRK, BRD, BLM and SMN. And it always comes to 1 or more people just not wanting to do the job. By the way I am talking about players with i180+ gear grinding the same dungeons so there is no excuse for them not to know their jobs. Most of the time I have seen people just use auto attack. Considering the kinda time grind We have for the relics sometimes it is just easier to drop party and do hunts till timer resets and then re-que and hope the new party consist of better players.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

I'm quite sure all the parsers have been wrong and been parsing wrong numbers. I can't think of why a dps would be that bad otherwise.

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Come to think of it! I'm sure me doing 400 DPS was just me discovered better ways to deal massive damage that the parsers can't read it. I mean the mob taking 2 minutes longer than it should is DEFINITELY because of the other people doing 1400 DPS not breaking the parsing tools like me! I'm in actuality doing 4000! If they other people do the same, the mob would die 5 minutes sooner!

I like how you think <3.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I honestly don't understand, my buddy and I were doing a Aery dungeon, He was the tank and I was the mch and the funny thing is, there was another mch in level 60 full geared out in 200, whatever, hes helping his healer friend or something ok.

Good bye everyone. *sigh*

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Come Tonberry, the JP know what you re talking about. You cant teach those unwilling to learn.

Simple: DPS isn't just right click, press a button.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Come Tonberry, the JP know what you re talking about. You cant teach those unwilling to learn.

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Tonberry is in a pretty bad state at the moment with all the NA's moving over recently to get their clears.
It's the talk of my linkshell nearly everyday.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Thank you so much for your comment, thats is part of what I tried to say. I agree with comment, we can ignore on how people play most of the time, and sometimes give a little help or a guide.
But if we meet with someone who has none experience or is only auto atacking or being carried/trolling in content of lvl51+, tell me how can we ignore that? Wasnt that the point of Pinki's thread?
To make everyone clear a difference between this 2 kinds of low players?

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Well, obviously, we can't ignore trolls; I don't. But if there's someone who has no experience, they should be offered help. Pet peeve is when someone is new, and we get to a boss, I stand outside the room to explain. Sadly, some tanks, or dps, would still pull while I'm typing. In this event, I still explain the battle even know I'm about to be locked out. If they can 3-man it with the new person, cool... If not, they should learn to wait until everyone is in the room.

We all played long enough to know NOT to start a boss battle when a member, who's been active the entire time, all of a sudden stop moving outside the room.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

I'm quite sure all the parsers have been wrong and been parsing wrong numbers. I can't think of why a dps would be that bad otherwise.

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I believe some parsers are wrong. In one run, two different people parsed my PLD; one person got me at 665 while another parsed me at 701. So, parsers aren't always legit.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I believe some parsers are wrong. In one run, two different people parsed my PLD; one person got me at 665 while another parsed me at 701. So, parsers aren't always legit.

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Parsers, especially ACT, is actually sensitive to latency. High levels of latency/lost packets can actually increase ur perceived DPS because the length of time elapsed has been shortened. Thats why a running average with multiple people is more accurate.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Parsers, especially ACT, is actually sensitive to latency. High levels of latency/lost packets can actually increase ur perceived DPS because the length of time elapsed has been shortened. Thats why a running average with multiple people is more accurate.

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There can be other differences as well, such as different encounter cut off times, simulating DoT crits (or not), version of plugin etc.

What I'm getting from this Parser Talk is that, while good for a general DPS range, that parser programs have questionable accuracy at best.

That sound to me like a peg for the "don't allow them" camp. But at the same time they do make otherwise invisible data visible to the players.

Add in my experience with Parser users and you find that the programs, like weapons IRL, are dependent on the intent of the user and that while a good many use the information with good or "morally neutral" intent that there are those groups of players that ruin it for every one by abusing their access to that semi-exclusive info.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

That sound to me like a peg for the "don't allow them" camp. But at the same time they do make otherwise invisible data visible to the players.

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I honestly don't know what you mean by a peg? Do you mean that it is a reason to vote against it? Because it is the primary reason why PC users want official parser support, so that they can have increased accuracy.

As for your 2nd part, I agree. However, I've seen a fair share of toxic behaviour without parsers, and I do not advocate removing stuff to prevent that. For example, I had a pretty toxic A1 run where a Tank wiped the party thinking we were doing a diff strategy, 2 people ganged up on him pretty hard. In this situation, the options to prevent this in the future are 1. remove mechanics, 2. remove tanks, 3. remove duty finder, 4. remove party chat. I don't think we should remove any of them, and I don't think that "some people may use it for evil" is a good reason to not implement it.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

What I'm getting from this Parser Talk is that, while good for a general DPS range, that parser programs have questionable accuracy at best.

That sound to me like a peg for the "don't allow them" camp. But at the same time they do make otherwise invisible data visible to the players.

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Side note, the data that the parsers use is in you battle log. Quite visible if you want it.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Side note, the data that the parsers use is in you battle log. Quite visible if you want it.

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True that, I just wish DOTs were on there too.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

There can be other differences as well, such as different encounter cut off times, simulating DoT crits (or not), version of plugin etc.

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Yep! I remember someone saying their system only shown the initial hit of my Goring Blade rather than the entire dot duration.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

True that, I just wish DOTs were on there too.

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I think that is a limitation imposed by DoT being handled server side, so it's not in the battle log.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Side note, the data that the parsers use is in you battle log. Quite visible if you want it.

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I know it's in the battle log, but after even a short fate the battle log rolls off and you can't see it anymore. Not to mention it's beyond even a lot of genious levels of human mathematics to keep up with all those numbers manually.

And yes Kaurie, by "peg" I ment a "justifiable" reason to oppose paraing. The creation of a 1st party SE parser though would eliminate accuracy issues as far as things like DoTs go since it could then track the dammage per "tick" the same way the game does.

I myself am neutral to paraing as it effects me very little. But it does irritate me how much of an issue it is to all three sides of the issue since even the devs are unsure how to handle it apparently.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I know it's in the battle log, but after even a short fate the battle log rolls off and you can't see it anymore. Not to mention it's beyond even a lot of genious levels of human mathematics to keep up with all those numbers manually.

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You're probably better off calculating potency instead of damage since gear andother factors can affect actual damage output.

It's the 1-2-3 syndrome. People think that all they have to do is push 3 buttons for a combo, over and over. They can't be bothered to utilize the other skills of their class/job to enhance DPS.

Oddly enough, these same people are the ones complaining that the game is "too simple" because the only thing to do is push 1-2-3.

Because personal responsibility ain't a thing nowadays with this entitled generation.

Sad to say but there's a lot of people who have the mindset where they want to have everything possible while putting in the least amount of effort.

I'm utterly confused now.

We have evolved into:-

1) Know the mechanics before you even step into the dungeon?
2) Parse your numbers to determine if you can step into the dungeon?
3) You are not supposed to "waste other gamers time" in a MMORPG?

And what else?

They're mad because they're bad

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I utterly confused now.

We have evolved into:-

1) Know the mechanics before you even step into the dungeon?
2) Parse your numbers to determine if you can step into the dungeon?
3) You are not supposed to "waste other gamers time" in a MMORPG?

And what else?

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1) Know the general mechanics of the game well enough that you can figure out where the fire is going to be on the floor so you don't stand there.
2) Parse your numbers to figure out if you're doing everything wrong or just need tweaking/practice on your current job. Target score: 1500. Current score: 1300. Good enough.
3) Don't furiously insist on 'learning the encounter blind' with randoms who at least expected being allowed to instruct a potential new player.

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I utterly confused now.

We have evolved into:-

1) Know the mechanics before you even step into the dungeon?
2) Parse your numbers to determine if you can step into the dungeon?
3) You are not supposed to "waste other gamers time" in a MMORPG?

And what else?

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you forgot about know your job
and know the optimum rotation (by the numbers) for you job even if it goes against your play style

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

I utterly confused now.

We have evolved into:-

1) Know the mechanics before you even step into the dungeon?
2) Parse your numbers to determine if you can step into the dungeon?
3) You are not supposed to "waste other gamers time" in a MMORPG?

And what else?

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Just started playing the game? Just unsubscribe immediately
That will be next.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

Just started playing the game? Just unsubscribe immediately
That will be next.

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Heh, I can imagine it now. "Please show your qualifications for this video game." -hands over folder- "Oh no, I'm afraid we can't give you full access, but we may be able to offer you an internship..."

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

and know the optimum rotation (by the numbers) for you job even if it goes against your play style

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I'm a Thunder Mage. Ain't nobody telling me what to do.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

What I'm getting from this Parser Talk is that, while good for a general DPS range, that parser programs have questionable accuracy at best.

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They're more accurate than you think--many differences that come up between parses tend to result from different users having different settings. Two different parsing programs most likely will not parse the same either--it is best to compare results from the same program (FFXIVApp is horribly inconsistent compared to ACT, for instance). It is also good to make sure that folks are using the same settings (ACT in particular lets you adjust all sorts of things, from how long it waits to drop encounter, from whether or not to simulate DoT ticks). The DoT ticks in particular for ACT are simulated, rather than based off of actual data (meaning the program makes some assumptions about which ticks crit and how much they hit for in general, based on what buffs are up at the time of application--which means that two users parsing the same attacks can end up with some variation because one user's program simulated 5 critical hits and the other did 8 or something).

So no, parsers don't have 100% accuracy (nor did Recount in WoW), but they can provide a general ballpark for someone to gauge their own performance or those of their group numbers. Personally, I haven't used one in awhile, as I found I was starting to worry too much about numbers. But they can still be a useful tool. I think using them to analyze pick up groups isn't a very good use for them, though: they're best for tracking your own performance in similar situations (I did 1000 on this boss last time--was I able to get higher?) and for helping a group of people you run with regularly to improve.

Remember you CAN'T mix apples with oranges. It is ok to be in a dungeon with a new player learning their skills pre Heavensward. It is NOT ok having a level 60 "insert job here" that doesn't understand rotations or tanking or healing. The game is VERY grindy and you have LOTS of time to practice before you can do any Heavensward content. And I have seen even DRK that just stand in middle of the AEO damage of bosses just doing auto attacks just making people waste time. People don't expect perfection people expect RESPONSABILITY for each class being played in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

They're more accurate than you think--many differences that come up between parses tend to result from different users having different settings. Two different parsing programs most likely will not parse the same either

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Just like two same parsers with the exact same settings will parse different numbers. What else ?