Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Hmm, an update on the rotation: Saving that last fester after the first DWS falls off, and using it right before the Alteration stacks fall off. This ensures you can always have AF stacks when going in DWS.

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Oh, I didn't think about that. Good call.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Hmm, an update on the rotation: Saving that last fester after the first DWS falls off, and using it right before the Alteration stacks fall off. This ensures you can always have AF stacks when going in DWS.

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Initially after the first DWS rush I had considered using festers only and skipping the painflare but you get into 2nd dws a few seconds late doing that. I'm hunt spamming right now so I'll try it out again and see if it helps. That said, getting into it a second or two late is more than worth the buffed potency for the 2nd fester in dwt

I wonder if Enkindle should be used inside Dreadwyrm Trance.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

I wonder if Enkindle should be used inside Dreadwyrm Trance.

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Doesn't get affected by DWT.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKHwkqBYc10

If anyone has yet to reach 60 but has a rotation in mind they want to try, please write it so I can try them all out and compare the differences.

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Not to go OT of your video's intent but damn controller SMN looks like it requires super nimble fingers to play at a high level.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Not to go OT of your video's intent but damn controller SMN looks like it requires super nimble fingers to play at a high level.

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Yeah, I saw that and was like wtf. The first time I watched it I was like wtf is he hitting cause he kept switching bars immediately. I thank the razer gods every day for making a mouse like the Naga because I don't know if I would be able to play SMN without one...

How is AoE to be handled with Ifrit? By that I mean, the flow of your reapplication of DoTs. IE:

In a pull you put up all 3 DoTs, Bane. Eventually Bio runs out, with Miasma about to run out and Bio II with a relatively small amount left. Generally just doing Bio > Bane is pretty big waste, especially because you should only be doing one more Bane and you'd be wasting Painflares otherwise. How should a situation like that be handled? Refresh all DoTs starting from Bio II once Bio runs out and then just Bane again? Mainly just Miasma > Bio > Bane to reapply?

I always just reapplied dots starting from bio then baned to not cut the dots currently on the target by too much.

For AoE, after the first set of DoTs begins to fall off, if mobs have enough HP, just redot and Bane again. If they are about to die though, Painflare, Miasma II and Ruin IIs with AAs

Wouldn't you just 3D Bane prior to Miasma falling off?

If 3D is on CD I usually B2MB Bane before Miasma falls off. Always want that 40 potency ticking the longest on all mobs.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Wouldn't you just 3D Bane prior to Miasma falling off?

If 3D is on CD I usually B2MB Bane before Miasma falls off. Always want that 40 potency ticking the longest on all mobs.

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3D / Re DoT all the same. But yes 3D would be better in this case. I need to level up.

Careful you don't do it too early, or basically you're cutting into the potency of the previous AF usage.

So effectively if you clip more than 2 ticks or so you've "wasted" a painflare equivalent.

OneWinged what is the opener that you use in that video you linked? I'm trying to get the PPS for it. I HAVE an opener thats very similar to the one you used.

Factoring in raid buffs like TA and BV foes/foes

If I cut at 22.5 and 52.5 I have mine at 222.98 and 185.47 respectively and I have yours at 193.9 and 180.67

If I cut at 25 and 55 I have mine at 200.68 and 181.6 and yours are at 221.64 and 184.06

Massive edits: I suck at this math thing cause I'm tired. The one you used in your video is superior. Saving raging strikes is bad.

One day when I'm not so tired I'll clean up the spreadsheet I used so it's easier to understand and add more of the openers we find then put it here.

Things I'd like to test are whether or not using DWT after you finish reapplying your dots to get more ruin 3s out is better

EDIT: Numbers are wrong, proportions are the same though. I broke my spreadsheet moving things around to accommodate your longer rotation and just realized it now.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

[B][SIZE="4"]
Auto attacks: The Unlikely Ally

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somehow this remind me of...
https://data.archive.moe/board/a/ima...8165753709.jpg

I wanna know what it will be like when we reach 60...

luizf_sp, I think that your opener is pretty good tbh, but I think you use too much skills oGCD while you could use GCD skills.
I made some changes to resolve this problem :
Always using Ifrit :
Rouse + Spur before pull.
Bio > Enkidle > Bio II > Radiant Shield > Miasma > Ruin II > Swiftcast > Fester > Shadow Flare > Painflare > Ruin II > Raging Strike > Ruin > Bio > Fester > Aetherflow > Pot > DW Trance > Ruin II > Tri-Disaster > Fester > Ruin III > Painflare > Ruin III > Fester > Deathflare

With this opener you don't have that much downtime and you optimize your DPS with using a GCD skill whenever you can.
Feel free to suggest some modifications, if we work together we can find the best opener :)

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

luizf_sp, I think that your opener is pretty good tbh, but I think you use too much skills oGCD while you could use GCD skills.
I made some changes to resolve this problem :
Always using Ifrit :
Rouse + Spur before pull.
Bio > Enkidle > Bio II > Radiant Shield > Miasma > Ruin II > Swiftcast > Fester > Shadow Flare > Painflare > Ruin II > Raging Strike > Bio > Aetherflow > Pot > DW Trance > Ruin II > Tri-Disaster > Fester > Ruin III > Painflare > Ruin III > Fester > Deathflare

With this opener you don't have that much downtime and you optimize your DPS with using a GCD skill whenever you can.
Feel free to suggest some modifications, if we work together we can find the best opener :)

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I can put this in my spreadsheet and figure out how much potency per second its worth if you want.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

I can put this in my spreadsheet and figure out how much potency per second its worth if you want.

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Please do :)

Not 60 yet, but here is how I think I will open, starting with Garuda:

Rouse + Spur / Bio II / Miasma / Bio / Enkindle / Fester / Ruin II / Painflare / Shadow Flare / Ruin spam until Fester is up / Fester / Aetherflow / Ruin II ? / Raging Strikes / Potion of Intelligence / Dreadwyrm Trance / Tri-Disaster / Fester / Miasma II / Ruin III spam / Contagion while casting Ruin III / Fester / Painflare unless an unbuffed Fester deals more damage / Deathflare before buffs disappear / Swiftcast Ifrit

I'm super happy with the way Ifrit has been buffed, I haven't used Garuda since early access. I try to squeeze as much DPS as possible by checking Ifrit's hotbar so I can use his AOE and stun right after his normal attack. It's so much better than just hitting Contagion when needed and macro'ing Aerial Slash to Miasma II and Bane. However I need to manually order Ifrit to change targets before his current target dies or he'll come to me, then change his mind and go back into the fray, losing a GCD or two.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

(Rotation)

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You're only using 2 aetherflow abilities, can't go into Trance with that. You can fit (need to test later) another fester after refreshing Bio and it'll benefit from the RS you just popped. Aside from this, I think its a pretty solid opener. I don't consider pet abilities as "oGcds" since they don't affect my rotation flow, so I didn't include them, but obviously you want ifrit on Obey to maximize DPS.

I don't think you should rush to go into Trance as fast as possible like some are suggesting, it seems to be a dps loss. Until ACT DoT parsing is fixed we can't say for sure whats the best way handle this. Right now, the dot damage provided by spell speed is not being parsed correctly (confirmed this yesterday with a spell speed build).

Oh yeah I forgot a Fester after the Bio refresh, my bad. (I edited the previous post)
I have to agree and disagree with you with the Trance entering. It's true that you lose DPS by using Painflare instead of a Fester, I totally agree on that, but I imagine I'm in a raid fight and the fight is long, the fastest I use my CDs (RS + Pot), the fastest I can reuse them.
I think that both of them are a viable option, I will use the Painflare one for now and I'll see that when ACT will work properly with DOTs again.

But I want to say that you are not wrong neither the other ones are wrong, we suggest things and see what is the best thing.

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Originally Posted by luizf_sp

Until ACT DoT parsing is fixed we can't say for sure whats the best way handle this. Right now, the dot damage provided by spell speed is not being parsed correctly (confirmed this yesterday with a spell speed build).

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I'm not using parses. I'm calculating potency per second, which is arguably more accurate than actual dps is because of stats and parser inaccuracies. I do this to find the theoretically highest dps opener we can do.

The trade off for going into DWT asap is you spend less time reapplying dots and get all of your dots (plus miasma and shadowflare) snapshot within trick attack dwt and xpot windows. If you rush into DWT using both the openers suggested that rush, DWT goes up at exactly the same time trick attack does. If we could get it up a GCD earlier you'd be able to hit DF with trick attack up. Yes you lose 250 potency off not festering, however your dots gain roughly double the potency per tick. Bio is coming in at 69.696 potency per second. Solo, your opener is probably superior but that's not why we're doing this.

FYI I'm not factoring in astro buffs because they're random and you won't always get them at the right time. It's better for them to go to other people. They'd almost have to hold onto them for you to get them snap shot properly.

Because SMN relies so much on dots it might not be a good idea to just look at potency per second due to spell speed increasing both the cast speed and damage of dots.

i.e. Ruin = 80 Potency but Bio relative to Ruin could be a total of 270 Potency (completely dependant on Spell Speed value + Enhanced Pet)

My thoughts on an optimal opener

Shadow Flare placed

Minimum 2.3 GCD

B2MB -> Pain + Fester -> R2 -> Rouse/Spur -> R2 -> Enkindle + Radiant Shield -> R2 -> R2 -> Fester
R -> R -> R2 + RS -> Bio + Pot -> SC SF -> Trance + 3D -> R2 + Fester + Pain -> R3, R3, R3,R3, R2 + Fester + Death Flare

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Because SMN relies so much on dots it might not be a good idea to just look at potency per second due to spell speed increasing both the cast speed and damage of dots.

i.e. Ruin = 80 Potency but Bio relative to Ruin could be a total of 270 Potency (completely dependant on Spell Speed value + Enhanced Pet)

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Naw, the whole point of SS scaling DoTs is that dps is constant - both scale together with SS. The new scaling actually makes it easier to deal with dots and their relationship with other abilities.

tl;dr: dps stays constant (scales constant), dpct increases.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Naw, the whole point of SS scaling DoTs is that dps is constant - both scale together with SS. The new scaling actually makes it easier to deal with dots and their relationship with other abilities.

tl;dr: dps stays constant (scales constant), dpct increases.

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But.....non dot skill damage isn't effected by spell speed outside of a shorter cast time. Which the dot cast time is shortened as well so that cancels out that difference and all you are left with is Dot 1 Potency > Non-Dot 1 Potency

I think the point of SS on dots was to equalize the balancing of SMN damage to other classes (instead of SS being entirely useless as a stat)

I don't think it will make it easier to deal with dot scaling VS other skills at all.

Look at Fester (300 Potency) - with 0 damage increase from Spell Speed. How much Spell Speed on a 240 Potency Bio until
Bio >= Fester in Damage output?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But.....non dot skill damage isn't effected by spell speed outside of a shorter cast time. Which the dot cast time is shortened as well so that cancels out that difference and all you are left with is Dot 1 Potency > Non-Dot 1 Potency

The point of SS on dots was the equalize the balancing of SMN to other classes?

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The point of SS on dots was to make SS 100% efficiency instead of 50% efficiency. SS functions like det for dots basically. When we get an idea of how SS affects dots I'll factor that in. Hopefully the simulator comes out soon. :s

Keep in mind though that the buff to dots wasn't a smn specific buff and affects all classes and every other class factors dots in the same way I am. Before it was like dots 1 pot < non dot 1 pot and now its more like dots = non dots. Thats why most everyone avoided skill/spell speed minus a few fringe cases for allowing an extra gcd during something along with resource problems

That said the difference was a lot larger given smns lack of high raw potency hits. On classes bereft of real dot dmg and no resource problems (im looking at you blm) ss was king.

This however is a discussion on stat weights, not rotations.

1 Shorter cast time for nukes = greater dps
2 Shorter cast time for dots = no dps gain
3 Increased dot damage due to ss = greater dps

1 = 3

So that is the status of that.

Yes fester (and other cooldown nukes, like enkindle) are not affected by SS. But our basic rotation, from GCD to GCD, DoTs and non DoTs, now scales together with each other and that makes models actually more accurate, as you don't have to account for GCD. Simply take the baseline 2.5 gcd, then scale the damage from both DoTs and ruin together.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

luizf_sp, I think that your opener is pretty good tbh, but I think you use too much skills oGCD while you could use GCD skills.
I made some changes to resolve this problem :
Always using Ifrit :
Rouse + Spur before pull.
Bio > Enkidle > Bio II > Radiant Shield > Miasma > Ruin II > Swiftcast > Fester > Shadow Flare > Painflare > Ruin II > Raging Strike > Ruin > Bio > Fester > Aetherflow > Pot > DW Trance > Ruin II > Tri-Disaster > Fester > Ruin III > Painflare > Ruin III > Fester > Deathflare

With this opener you don't have that much downtime and you optimize your DPS with using a GCD skill whenever you can.
Feel free to suggest some modifications, if we work together we can find the best opener :)

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A few inefficiencies I can spot initially from seeing how everything fits up on the spreadsheet.

First, your TD doesn't line up with Trick Attack because you go into DWT later losing the extra 16% dmg it gains. Everything I've read says that dmg buffs are multiplicative rather than static increases, so this makes the 10% from trick attack a lot larger than the 10% it shows. Second, you can fit 3 more GCDs in DWT if you end with ruin 2. You'll be cutting it VERY close if you don't have enough spell speed but I was able to JUST barely do it in 145 gear and 180 gear has made it a lot easier. Third, there is an error in there. Your 3rd fester is impossible so I removed it.

Lastly, the entire rotation (taken until your buffed dots wear off, including reapplication of new buffs) is only 146.44336 pps. Very much lower than the DWT rushes. Even with my inaccuracies on them the difference only amounts to like a 5 pps difference from what they should be. (I also used RS as 25% cause for some reason I was convinced it was, and it took a while to fix) If I take it until you end with DF like I do with the others, its only 162.98 pps. If I do the same thing I did with the others, yours comes out even worse. The worst part about it is, you lose a tick of bio at the beginning.

SMN is very hard to get accurate numbers for because of the pets, if someone could let me know how much potency both enkindles are that would seriously help. Also, ifrit is worth about 40 dps more than garuda (195 dps ifrit vs 152 dps garuda) I had them sitting there attacking while I was hitting their abilities in the manner you would in raid for about 3 hours last night. They'll probably do a little bit more in raid but yeah.

Funsies: https://youtu.be/rChZgQODfAE I apologize for the quality, the source video is higher quality but youtube nuked it. :/ This demonstrates the 6 GCD DWT, I hit Deathflare at 2s, and DWT wore off at 1s. I've tried ending with other spells but unless we can knock off 1.6s off 6 gcds I don't think we can. It would take the FCoB levels of SS that BLM had to do this. We could PROBABLY do it during Fey Wind but its still a stretch.

EDIT: With Fey Wind it's possible to finish off DWT with ruin 3 instead of ruin 2, however it's extremely close and I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you know you have good latency or the spell speed to do it.

The benefit of spell speed to GCDs has been reduced to a little over a third because of level 60. At 573 Spell speed I have 2.41 on the GCD, if the numbers were the same proportionately as they were in ARR it would read 2.3 or something. This means somewhere in the upper 700s of spell speed would be required to do Ruin 3 during DWT as an ending spell before Deathflare would be required. Somehow I don't see this being possible until way later.

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Originally Posted by Meleoffs

First, your TD doesn't line up with Trick Attack because you go into DWT later losing the extra 16% dmg it gains. Everything I've read says that dmg buffs are multiplicative rather than static increases, so this makes the 10% from trick attack a lot larger than the 10% it shows.

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I very much disagree that you should throw in factors you have no control over in your spreadsheet (granted it is yours). Saying skills like TA will happen at X time, is not a guarantee as we do not control said players. I have raided with many different ninja in 2.55 and the Trick Attack timing was almost always differing among different players, not to mention, for the instances you do not have a Ninja present. Finding an optimal rotation to start with should be about elements you can control, Pot/ Buff timing. More to the point when you have elements like Garudas Contagion to increase the duration of snapshotted DoTs that could have benefited from other class skills. Throws a very big wrench in proper calculation of optimal openers.

As for Enkindle potencies:

Garuda is 250 one hit, Ifrit is 200 one hit + 20 x 5 DoT ticks

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I very much disagree that you should throw in factors you have no control over in your spreadsheet (granted it is yours). Saying skills like TA will happen at X time, is not a guarantee as we do not control said players. I have raided with many different ninja in 2.55 and the Trick Attack timing was almost always differing among different players, not to mention, for the instances you do not have a Ninja present. Finding an optimal rotation to start with should be about elements you can control, Pot/ Buff timing. More to the point when you have elements like Garudas Contagion to increase the duration of snapshotted DoTs that could have benefited from other class skills. Throws a very big wrench in proper calculation of optimal openers.

As for Enkindle potencies:

Garuda is 250 one hit, Ifrit is 200 one hit + 20 x 5 DoT ticks

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Every ninja I've raided with has had trick attack up before shadow fang. In an organized group having it up on the 4th GCD is really what you want to look for. That's how people found out the optimal opener for BLM was b3 t1. Ignoring buffs to find a rotation thats the highest potency outside of them is silly because it doesn't fully make use of the resources available to you and doesn't maximize your damage. Any ninja that doesn't have trick attack up before their shadowfang and before Aeolian edge was a bad ninja. Losing the 20 potency on shadowfangs base hit from trick alone is huge.

Ifrit is better now ? Garuda is really good with contagion.

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Originally Posted by Wisper

Ifrit is better now ? Garuda is really good with contagion.

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Ifrit deals more damage than Garuda. Contagion is good and had its uses, but it's overrated as far as claiming Garuda is always the optimal choice.

With Radiant Shield I'm honestly never seeing a point to Garuda right now except maybe in fights where you just really want a ranged pet.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

With Radiant Shield I'm honestly never seeing a point to Garuda right now except maybe in fights where you just really want a ranged pet.

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Yep contagion is really only worth 7 pps, Ifrits the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

With Radiant Shield I'm honestly never seeing a point to Garuda right now except maybe in fights where you just really want a ranged pet.

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Contagion is better now with Trick + Tri-distaster dots every minute. Adds up, yo.

One of the big shortcomings of Contagion is that it was only ever a significant gain when combined with buffs like Raging Strikes and such. The next two times you used it, it would be an extremely tiny gain.

Now with Dreadwyrm Trance and Tri-disaster, you could get some more mileage by extending buffed DoTs every minute instead of just once every 3 minutes. This could close the gap between the pets, depending on the encounter. I haven't done any testing, though; I'll worry about it after I get my Ravana book.

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Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki

One of the big shortcomings of Contagion is that it was only ever a significant gain when combined with buffs like Raging Strikes and such. The next two times you used it, it would be an extremely tiny gain.

Now with Dreadwyrm Trance and Tri-disaster, you could get some more mileage by extending buffed DoTs every minute instead of just once every 3 minutes. This could close the gap between the pets, depending on the encounter. I haven't done any testing, though; I'll worry about it after I get my Ravana book.

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Even with that the difference between the two is 2pps more in favor of garuda while ifrit does 50+ dps more. However in the long run, its worth about 20 potency per second. I do believe that ifrit more than makes up for it through his damage though and running garuda in the opener loses its benefit after 1 minute where ifrit takes over. Would it be worth considering swapping to Ifrit on the second swift cast and losing a gcd? I really don't think so. That said, I've found a pretty decent opener.

-4 rouse spur raging obey
-2.5 bio 2 > miasma > bio > fester> ruin 2 > enkindle > ruin > painflare energy drain > ruin 2 > aetherflow dreadwyrm trance > ruin 2 > pot fester > ruin 2 > swiftcast > shadowflare > tri-disaster > ruin 3 > ruin 2 > fester > ruin 2 > deathflare

This opener amounts to 237.96 potency per second burst, dropping to 176.49 potency per second after the first minute. Garuda does 241.12 potency per second burst and 191.47 until the first minute and then drops sharply after that. The 10% dmg from Dreadwyrm Trance alone isn't enough to outweigh the damage gain from ifrit past the first contagion, and probably not at all.

http://i.imgur.com/HP4NZmJ.png

It's really messy and one or two things are out of place but yeah, the math that's there should be correct. It's mostly incorrect in that the last fester should be during bio, the ruin 2 where that fester is used should be ruin, and the DWT should be above the ruin 2. EDIT: Oopse corrected a mistake that makes a .41 pps difference ;)

Contagion RS dots is not as significant of a dps increase as you might think.

It ends up saving you 2 GCDs, rather than 1.8 GCDs.

Woo.

@Meleoffs - would you mind trying my opener on your spreadsheet?

Ifrit is usesefull when the boss is stationanry and Garuda is better when the boss moves around alot.

First I want to say I really appreciate the math and numbers you guy put into PPS and rotation, I use a lot of it in determining optimal rotation. Some things though I feel like don't get taken into account when calculating for example best pet.

I currently use Garuda in just about every situation, I do agree in a stationary fight with *zero* movement ifrit is the clear winner, but maybe someone can break down the math on how many GCD does ifrit have to lose in a course of lets say 8 minutes (maybe shorter) before Garuda is higher dps. Ifirt has to move around when target switching, it's also pretty dumb if the mob is moved and it has to chase after it. All that to me constitutes as a dps lost, while garuda continue to have 100% uptime.

Radiant shield to me is meh, its only physical attacks.....