Can you please Ease Up on Atma now?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you realize how much this on can look selfish and arrogant right? i means, the relic is not a bragging rights! it's the progression of your jobs. i means people must really stop to act like only a few must have something, you have the elemental horse and a few minion for this! relic must'nt be a bragging rights!

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I thought people in this thread hated "RNG for bragging rights"? Basically they need to bring back the difficult like original relic, where Titan was a hard gate to players. So you knew people who had relic weren't bottom of the barrel players. But I believe this would lead to another problem which is heavily rampant in this game and forums; people feel that everything should be accessible and obtainable with minimal effort.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

results in finding a way to discourage those who don't have a heart of iron to give up and pursue other options.

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All I've seen with anything you post is a whole lot of self-proclaiming "no one else should have it easier because I want to be special" BS.
The more you try to defend this horrible design, the more you look to be someone who is incredibly selfish. Many players would love to work on their weapons, but they are played with this unfun and unfair RNG bullcrap that doesn't "Cull the pack", it discourages players and therefore can cause people to quit and lose interest in the game. I'm not sure SE wants that, and many people sure as heck don't want that.
As I said before, just because you happened to be lucky and are perfectly okay with mindlessly grinding fates, doesn't mean others are OK with it as well. Also, luck =/= effort or skill.

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Originally Posted by Raxion

People saying that they farmed for days and weeks without getting anything, I gotta call BS. Doing FATEs for an hour does not count as farming for a day. If you 'really' sit down and get busy for a good 5-6 hours of FATE grinding, you'll usually walk away with at least 1. I have one near-Nexus, and one Animus weapon. Neither of them took me more than 5 solid days of FATE grinding to finish. Sure, RNG is RNG, but even if you were to have the worst luck imaginable, you'd still be getting Atma if you were actually 'farming' for them, and not giving up after 10 FATEs.

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It's not worth it or enjoyable for many people to "Sit down" and chase after the same fates over and over again, many times missing fates they needed because they may be too far away, being halfway across a zone, or are being completed too fast. There are many variables that make this grind horrendously frustrating.
Just because you got one atma after a 5-6 hour grind doesn't mean that other people want to do that. Many are seeing their friends either quit or move ahead of them because RNG is not being kind. Luck is not something that works well in this game for something like a relic upgrade. Many of my friends are discouraged, saddened, and ready to quit because they can't keep up with other members of our FC or friends of their own.
It was amazingly fun to get over the hurtles of the Hard mode primals as a group, but with the Atma grind, you can't do that anymore. Many people get left behind, and that's never a good feeling.

The atma system probably would have gone over better if luck was still a stat we could invest in.

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

ｓ

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You're see what you want to see.　That's fine.

those who said no are like people who are crying during Steam sale because they already paid for full price games.

grow up.

I'm adding my experience here. I'm convinced the atma step (and the subsequent ones actually) was implemented to feed the low level content. We need people to do fates in unefficient levelling zones ? Let's make a unavoidable quest using that mechanism. Same goes for low level dongeons in books, and now low level bosses for nexus quest. I don't agree with that strategy from the developper, and I think that's a lazy way to actualize old content; but at the same time, that's a good idea to "force" people to go back in old dungeons. My point is, they could have done it in a better way... The last nexus step is really no brain too when you think about it, the only difference is that you know the state of the process.

After saying this, I must admit I have mixed feelings about atmas. Sometimes it was nice to run around the maps, levelling the chocobo, hanging with new people in teams ; sometimes it was really depressing because of the involved luck required to get atmas. I was pretty lucky in my case, that's why I'm not raging about that I guess ; however I can understand it is time to ease up the atma grinding process, since the subsequent steps are shorter and do not depend on luck. My 2 cents recommandation: make the probability slowly increase after each fate, just to ensure the atma will drop eventually after investing a lot of time in a zone.

This is stupid.
I spent 3-6 hours a DAY sometimes on the weekends 8. For. 3. Whole. Weeks. In camp drybone.

Not
One
Drop.

So yes its possible for farm forWEEKS and not get anything. Its called RNG and we arent making shit up.

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Originally Posted by Mijin

Some people win the lottery too, or become movie stars. If someone gets all 12 that easy then they probably deserve it because their karma must be like that of the Buddha. You're acting like 50% of the people have it that easy, when in actuality, it's more like .00000000000005%. In general when you are faced with a 5% chance 12 times, the majority of people are going to average pretty close to 5%. Use this and see how many time you can land five or under in close proximity of each other 12 times.

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They deserveit faster? This is the single stupidest posting this thread... Congrats

Excluding the easier to obtain myth gear, they nerfed the original relic quest with echo and by adding the trials to DF. They nerfed BCOB and will do the same thing for SCOB.

They've already set plenty of presidence or making older content easier to obtain after a while. I am sure they'll do the same thing for ATMAS drop rates as well. But that doesn't mean it'll still be a cake walk. Getting IV grade materia is still expensive and will block some people from advancing

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Originally Posted by WellGramarye

Fun is subjective. Challenging is subjective.

Some people find Coil fun. Some people find Coil Challenging. Others don't.

Hanging out with friend's doing Fates, while helping them level because they aren't level capped, and getting rewarded is fun to ME.

Doing a Raid weekly for gear that's marginally or not at all better than other options, while dealing with rage quit tendency people, and super stressful situations on the other hand is NOT fun for ME.

Your mileage may vary. More people need to look at exactly why they are doing certain things, and playing the game.

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I have yet to find anyone who actually enjoyed the Atma grind. The grind itself that is, not the actual obtaining of the atmas or weapon itself.But as for the people who dislike the grind, I'd say its over 99%

And Challenge isn't as subjective. There is little to no challenge for the atma.

here's the way i feel on it, i don't care if they keep the random. but they need to make adjustments to it's calculations.

Right now the calculation remains the same no matter how many fates you do, potentially leaving you at it FOREVER. Whilst statistically unlikely, this is an unfortunate truth.

Instead, the system should account for failure to obtain the Atma, and with each concurrant failure, the chance to obtain it should raise, until the chance to obtain that Atma caps out at a 100% chance to drop, now this might take 100 fates, with a 1% increase in chance every time, but this would mean that eventually, you were guaranteed to get it. And once you get it, chance returns to normal, to increase for the next one.

If there was that guarantee, i wouldn't be so bothered by Atma farming.

I liked the Atma grind. I'm actually a bit disappointed it didn't take as long as what I was expecting. I really liked going to the lower level areas and putting FATE parties together with newcomers to the game, people working on their first atma weapon like myself, and those who were working on their second or third atma weapon. That breadth of player experience was really great to come across. All on my local server too, so if I wanted to make friends with the people I met I could just add them to my friends list. It's a great chance to communicate, interact, and potentially create lasting bonds with people on your very server.

I liked making my own gear and spiritbonding it while I leveled my chocobo. I never used my chocobo in battle before the atma grind and it was a new and neat aspect of the game to me. The FATE descriptions were fun to read and the logistics of getting from one side of the map to the other before a targeted FATE ended also added strategy to the hunt. I'm looking forward to doing it all again for my second weapon as well and actually hope it takes a little bit longer this time honestly.

I really like that the atma grind specifically has us do FATEs in the lower level zones rather than the endgame zones, otherwise newbies would never be able to complete a FATE on their own as everyone would just be too focused on endgame content like they already are (see Hunt grinding). Even then there were a few instances where I was stuck having to kill a FATE boss all my lonesome without anyone around to help me, thus failing the FATE due to time running out.

I also like that the game offers other weapon alternatives especially for difficult content and that upgrading your relic isn't the only option available.

I'm curious when people say they've spent weeks or months getting atmas. While I get the frustration, everyone's "time" is different. Some people can only commit 30 mins, 3 times a week to the game, while others will literally have the game played for them by a sibling or significant other while they are sleeping or at work. Saying it took "months" is a bit misleading as that's not actual time spent in game but spent in one's own subjective real life time. I for example, just so happen to be on vacation so I was able to dedicate pretty much two whole days to grinding out atmas. With that knowledge in mind, I'll be able to commit the same amount of time even when I go back to work as I have weekends as well. That's the thing though, I know people don't have access to my kind of time, and I sure as hell don't have the kind of time or resources that some people who play this game have.

With that being said, I don't think I'm too much against a hard cap on how many FATEs need to be done in order for a person to be guaranteed an Atma. I'm not really a fan of RNG content in general. I don't think people should have to completely rely on the random nature of the drop rates. Time is time. It's pretty obvious that the devs have a "timeline" in their head whenever they release such content. In essence, based on the percentages, "it should take someone about X amount of time to complete Y content. That should hold the populace for awhile while we work on new content for an upcoming expansion / update etc."

With that in mind, if there is a set "time" then that "time" should be measured in gameplay hours. Once it's been established then just make milestones and achievements based on that amount of time rather than a random number generator.

In conclusion, low level FATEs and utilizing "outdated" content is essential for the gaming population. I don't think mixing old players with new players through content really needs to be an aspect of the games design that needs to be debated. It just needs to happen in order for the game to stay healthy, end of story.

RNG based progression I don't think I'm necessarily sold on so much. You can still create "timegates" in other ways besides just random luck.

Relic weapon is meant to be hard to get maxed. Otherwise all of Eorzea would be running around with one. I'm glad it takes time.

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Originally Posted by Kaelah

Relic weapon is meant to be hard to get maxed. Otherwise all of Eorzea would be running around with one. I'm glad it takes time.

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now the atma not hard at all, its just very big time sink, if was system that give you atma after 100 fates in zone then fine, but spending whole night and morning with 0 drops is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tagihi

now the atma not hard at all, its just very big time sink, if was system that give you atma after 100 fates in zone then fine, but spending whole night and morning with 0 drops is just ridiculous.

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That's the trouble with the drop rates I suppose, some people just have the worst luck. I went like a month with 0 atma once, even actively farming them. Got them all eventually though. I used to change zones after an hour of not getting one, made it slightly more bearable. The last one is the worst cuz you can't do that anymore.

I'll probably be complaining here soon enough though, I still need to start atma farming for my MNK.

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Originally Posted by Kaelah

That's the trouble with the drop rates I suppose, some people just have the worst luck. I went like a month with 0 atma once, even actively farming them. Got them all eventually though. I used to change zones after an hour of not getting one, made it slightly more bearable. The last one is the worst cuz you can't do that anymore.

I'll probably be complaining here soon enough though, I still need to start atma farming for my MNK.

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Exackly what people trying to explain here they don't want atma hand out at silverplate, just simply adjust drop rate, and im sure more people will be motivated farm atma fates with lowbis around :)

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Originally Posted by Kaelah

Relic weapon is meant to be hard to get maxed. Otherwise all of Eorzea would be running around with one. I'm glad it takes time.

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If the FATE's were actually difficult (and fun), then I wouldn't have minded them as much. Sadly, they're mind numbingly boring and require little to no effort (which is stupid, as we had to fight multiple bosses to get our Relics, which required effort in 2.0. Heck, people still wipe to Titan HM). The only "hard part" about the Atma weapon is the RNG. That's it.

As a fun fact, the people complaining about the Atma drop rate are players who have been farming them for weeks/months. They've been dealing with this nonsense for far longer than us who are already up to our Novus or Nexus.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If the FATE's were actually difficult (and fun), then I wouldn't have minded them as much. Sadly, they're mind numbingly boring and require little to no effort (which is stupid, as we had to fight multiple bosses to get our Relics, which required effort in 2.0. Heck, people still wipe to Titan HM). The only "hard part" about the Atma weapon is the RNG. That's it.

As a fun fact, the people complaining about the Atma drop rate are players who have been farming them for weeks/months. They've been dealing with this nonsense for far longer than us who are already up to our Novus or Nexus.

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Can't argue with that (bold). The book FATEs are just as bad. Annoying too since they have 4-7 hour timers.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I'm curious when people say they've spent weeks or months getting atmas. While I get the frustration, everyone's "time" is different. Some people can only commit 30 mins, 3 times a week to the game, while others will literally have the game played for them by a sibling or significant other while they are sleeping or at work. Saying it took "months" is a bit misleading as that's not actual time spent in game but spent in one's own subjective real life time.

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Yeah I agree that "time spent" is an irrelevant metric in a discussion about RNG, because Fate clearing speed is heavily dependent on a lot of factors.
There is only one interesting metric here: Number of FATEs since the last drop.

Worst of my set was 144 in central shroud.
Took me around 6-8 hours to do that many FATEs, so a guy who can commit 1 hour a day for 3 days a week would have farmed nearly 3 weeks.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

As a fun fact, the people complaining about the Atma drop rate are players who have been farming them for weeks/months. They've been dealing with this nonsense for far longer than us who are already up to our Novus or Nexus.

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This.

Also it sucks for some people who have jobs and lives. They cant or don't want to devote 5 hours a NIGHT of their game time to a boring grind when they'd rather be doing other things.
But are they any less deserving than any other player? Certainly not.
Its sad seeing so many people insisting that this grind is "hard". It's NOT hard, its annoying.You can't see your progress. You can't tell how long you've been going at the grind. and even if you get one Atma, how much time has been wasted? Many just give up right then. It's not FUN when people are pushed in to giving up.

I would like them to ease up on Atma, too - at least make them drop less random. I am farming them with a friend of mine and we had our first nasty RNG-encounter with the 2nd Atma we are at. We were doing exactly the same FATEs ate the same time together. Result: I am at 5 Atmas of the Scorpion, he still got none. My first 3 I got in 10 minutes after starting farming in the region. So... well... he is frustrated and I got Atmas that I won't use. I think that is bad design and should be thought about by the devs. Maybe introduce a token system or something, so it is less subject to RNG.

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Listen - everyone complaining about how long atma grinding takes might as well give up on the Zodiac quest. As soon as you finish atma, you are entering animus territory. 9 books, 13,500 myth. The myth, believe it or not, is the easy part. Each book has the following:

*snip*

If you think atma takes too much "time" - you should probably do yourself a favor and ignore the questline completely.

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The major difference here though is that it's guaranteed progression. Completed that fate? Awesome, ticked off the list. Beaten that book? Sweet, +1/2 to that stat. While atma is one thing only "Do fate for the low chance of something maybe dropping." It's nice when it drops, but there is no indication of when that is.

"There's nothing wrong with the system! People just whine about it forever and ever and ever because.... they like whining! Nothing is wrong!"


Pretty much nothing else has the lasting-hatred-power of this specific flavor of content. Not even housing has kept people mad as long as Fate-Stage relic.

Even people past it despise it.

People with Alts extra despise it.

Everyone admits they'd be okay with doing even 20, some even 50 fates if it just had a meter instead of RNG.

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

Its sad seeing so many people insisting that this grind is "hard".

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The only hard part is dealing with your own frustration and pushing onward.
A thoroughly misplaced exercise in a video game we play for fun.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

THERE IS NO DIFFICULTY.
its neither easy, nor is it hard.

You don't get it or not get it because you did/did not do something special to the cause.

It is RNG,
A crappy 1% rate RNG - that causes people like me to get it in a few fates, and people like Kusari-chan to not get it in several hundred.

ERADICATE THIS NOTION OF DIFFICULTY FROM YOUR MIND.

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Some people just don't get it, so heres a requote.

When I said relic weapons are meant to be hard to get, I meant just that. Not that atma are hard. I also said I'm glad it takes some time. Like the atma take time. Nothing about grinding low level FATEs is hard. @_@ Poor choice of words ok lol.

[QUOTE=Granyala;2467323] snip

As I said i dont have an issue with it, like other player, 2nd yes thats possible but the odd of that happening are I would think high, either way leave it as it is, if you want the relic do it, if you dont than dont. there is no need to change the current system just because you or who every dosent like it.

Actually sure change it with following requirementys 200 fates per atma with a gold rating and players must complete the fate and not leave, problem solved.

The sticking problem with atma is that you are putting your progress 100% in the hands of the RNG system. there is no other contributing factor.

This, by the sheer number of on going complaint threads should at least say somethign to the comminity and to SE that many don;t like putting their progress completely in the hands of "luck".

I don't think it's even about the time consuming nature of atma griding, it's about seeing the end goal. I reckon in many player's minds who are struggling to obtain them, that each time an atma doesn't drop, the thought enters their heads that "it will never drop" "this could take me months" and other negetive thoughts. This can be extremely demolising to a player.

*I speak from my own experience.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

"There's nothing wrong with the system! People just whine about it forever and ever and ever because.... they like whining! Nothing is wrong!"


Pretty much nothing else has the lasting-hatred-power of this specific flavor of content. Not even housing has kept people mad as long as Fate-Stage relic.

Even people past it despise it.

People with Alts extra despise it.

Everyone admits they'd be okay with doing even 20, some even 50 fates if it just had a meter instead of RNG.

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Im sorry 20 or 50 oh no thats too little, you want it you earn heres my example: 200 fates per atma, need a gold rating and must complete each fate and not leave early, if you leave early or the fate area you lose your credit.

People that don't want to deal with rng shouldn't meld Novus either.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

People that don't want to deal with rng shouldn't meld Novus either.

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there's a lot more factors in the novus system obtaining a map each day is skill based 100% quest reward, clearing the map for your Alex was skill based, no rng, success guaranteed an alexandrite.
obtaining materia via spirit bonding requires faith in the RNG system but you can negate that via buying them on the market board.
the only real RNG was melding them, even then the lowest chance of loosing the materia was 50% (iirc) but you never lost the alex. (didn't you originally loose the alex but SE fixed that)

Sure failing a meld with a 60% sucess chance was really annoying but nowhere near the % chances of atma.

Sorry, rng is rng; there is no high low; i could be that unlucky person that has failed all my melds.
That's essentially what i've been hearing in regards to the justification of the atmas.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

People that don't want to deal with rng shouldn't meld Novus either.

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Since you don't have to use Class IV materia ifyou aim for 3 stats instead of 2 maxed, the RNG of Novus is trivial in comparison to Atma.

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Originally Posted by Yukariko

I reckon in many player's minds who are struggling to obtain them, that each time an atma doesn't drop, the thought enters their heads that "it will never drop" "this could take me months" and other negetive thoughts.

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Not quite.
"I did 100 FATEs.... no drop... that means I am no closer to my goal ... at all. The time I needed to clear 100 FATEs? Completely wasted.
Not even any progress or chance increase at all."

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

Im sorry 20 or 50 oh no thats too little, you want it you earn heres my example: 200 fates per atma

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LOL 200 FATEs per Atma.. get real buddy.
If the current targeted average is 500 FATEs for a set that would result in 42 Fates per Atma.

Class I, II, III materia for novus, all have reduced rates (50-60%).

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Originally Posted by Marionette

The major difference here though is that it's guaranteed progression. Completed that fate? Awesome, ticked off the list. Beaten that book? Sweet, +1/2 to that stat. While atma is one thing only "Do fate for the low chance of something maybe dropping." It's nice when it drops, but there is no indication of when that is.

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Try to see the bigger picture. The most efficient way of farming myth back in 2.2 was through mythflox. A well geared group takes 7 min on average including loading time to complete 1 run. If you purely ran that for efficiency, that alone would take you 270 x 7= 1890 minutes = 31 hours purely for myth alone. Add to that the 900 mobs, time spent waiting for fates, 27 low level dungeons and levequests and it can easily take upwards of 50 hours. I know that my atma took way faster than the animus, but I did sit down for 6 hours at a stretch 3 to 4 times before I got all of them.

The way I see it, its like saying that a 500 dollar note is worth more than ten 50 dollar bills.

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Originally Posted by maxthunder1

Im sorry 20 or 50 oh no thats too little, you want it you earn heres my example: 200 fates per atma, need a gold rating and must complete each fate and not leave early, if you leave early or the fate area you lose your credit.

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Not sure if trolling or sarcasm. Simply cannot be anything but those two.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

Class I, II, III materia for novus, all have reduced rates (50-60%).

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I get what you're saying, but you honestly can't compare the Atma RNG to the Novus RNG. Atma is probably set at a 1-5% drop rate, whereas Materia melding is always going to be between 50%-100%. Yes, they're both RNG, but one has a higher success rate compared to the other.

Have you ever felt what it feels like to get an atma after being 6 hours dry? It feels amazing.
Have you ever felt what it feels like to meld materia with a 50% success rate? Not as amazing as atma.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

Class I, II, III materia for novus, all have reduced rates (50-60%).

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I take a 50% meld chance of a Materia for 1-15K over a 100% chance for a 750K Materia any day.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

Have you ever felt what it feels like to get an atma after being 6 hours dry? It feels amazing.

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Yes I have. No it didn't feel "amazing" it felt like "Thank GOD that unfun shit's over!"

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Originally Posted by EllPii

Sorry, rng is rng; there is no high low; i could be that unlucky person that has failed all my melds.
That's essentially what i've been hearing in regards to the justification of the atmas.

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were you that person who failed every meld, even those with 100% success chance? no?
I failed maybe 5 melds on my novus, sure that stung, but that sting hurt a lot less then countelss fates i failed to obtain an atma from.

Another problem with RNG is that those who are "lucky" see absolutely no problem with the system compared to those who are "unlucky".