I don't understand...

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Originally Posted by Keres

Politeness and humbleness is something that should go both ways, and it's entirely possible to give friendly advice without coming across as a jerk. The fact that you don't seem to believe it's possible is a little confusing, honestly.

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"Can" go both ways. The fact that you and others jump to that assumptions simply because I ain't raising my pitchfork and torch is of no surprise to me.

In page 3 I said, "depending on the person can either lead to him hearing you out or taking it as a personal insult".

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

"Can" go both ways. The fact that you and others jump to that assumptions simply because I ain't raising my pitchfork and torch is of no surprise to me.

In page 3 I said, "depending on the person can either lead to him hearing you out or taking it as a personal insult".

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And if they take it as an insult, they're in the wrong, and better off in single player titles. They're too sensitive to participate as adults in a recreational activity that involves other people. Maybe they're depressed, maybe they had a bad day, maybe who knows. But they are 100% in the wrong in that case and should not be in a group.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

And if they take it as an insult, they're in the wrong.

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So how many times has that methodology been working again? Since if it was threads like these wouldn't exists.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

So how many times has that methodology been working again? Since if it was threads like these wouldn't exists.

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Trolls exist.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Trolls exist.

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Yup. Yet he never uses his words in a consistent manner to convey his real meaning, and the moment you produce a decent counter point he immediately turns to saying its us not understanding him and twisting his words.

Please don't feed the trolls.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

What can you do when they are undergeared then? Vote abandon? Sometimes that is the only option. But often the group can work around it. The cool downs can only handle so much and then they are on cool down. Bad pulls, I don't know how you can repeated do bad pulls on stuff like SV or less. If there are no speed runners the pulls are always the smallest allowed. The tank does need any more pressure from the peanut gallery. I'd rather have the group find a working solutions then try to dictate or order around the tank that is already under duress.

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Bad pulls=pulling more than you can handle. Which can happen when the tank isn't aware of patrol mobs. Anyway, if the tank is utterly hopeless and won't listen your options are kick or abandon, yes. I'm not going to spend an hour on something that should take half that time because somebody doesn't want to learn thier role. If they're receptive I'll stick around. Otherwise? I can be doing something else.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Trolls exist.

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Yet you go an party with them by choice. Way to troll yourself.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

Bad pulls=pulling more than you can handle. Which can happen when the tank isn't aware of patrol mobs. Anyway, if the tank is utterly hopeless and won't listen your options are kick or abandon, yes. I'm not going to spend an hour on something that should take half that time because somebody doesn't want to learn thier role. If they're receptive I'll stick around. Otherwise? I can be doing something else.

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That's usually how it is. Sadly the people here want to force some brick wall to suddenly sprout apples.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

"Can" go both ways. The fact that you and others jump to that assumptions simply because I ain't raising my pitchfork and torch is of no surprise to me.

In page 3 I said, "depending on the person can either lead to him hearing you out or taking it as a personal insult".

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I'm saddened, but not particularly surprised, that this is all that you chose to acknowledge out of my post. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

... Sadly the people here want to force some brick wall to suddenly sprout apples.

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This is so true. And they say it like it is just one or two more buttons. If were that easy, it would have already been done. Habits, routine, momemtum, knowledge (of/lack of) and whole slew of human factors is why they don't.

The bottom line is for people like the OP and threads like this: "why can't I find more players who play better like me?"

The answer is if they were better than you they don't want to play with you, the definition of the elitist ethos.

So what are you left with? Other players who can not be demanded to be so hardcore. So relax, get along, play for fun, not optimizing that last 0.x % of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

This is so true. And they say it like it is just one or two more buttons. If were that easy, it would have already been done. Habits, routine, momemtum, knowledge (of/lack of) and whole slew of human factors is why they don't.

The bottom line is for people like the OP and threads like this: "why can't I find more players who play better like me?"

The answer is if they were better than you they don't want to play with you, the definition of the elitist ethos.

So what are you left with? Other players who can not be demanded to be so hardcore. So relax, get along, play for fun, not optimizing that last 0.x % of DPS.

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That's such a straw man it's ridiculous. Nobody has said any such thing. There's a big difference between a player who doesn't know what they're doing but trying and a player who doesn't give a shit. This whole thread has been about the latter.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

This is so true. And they say it like it is just one or two more buttons. If were that easy, it would have already been done. Habits, routine, momemtum, knowledge (of/lack of) and whole slew of human factors is why they don't.

The bottom line is for people like the OP and threads like this: "why can't I find more players who play better like me?"

The answer is if they were better than you they don't want to play with you, the definition of the elitist ethos.

So what are you left with? Other players who can not be demanded to be so hardcore. So relax, get along, play for fun, not optimizing that last 0.x % of DPS.

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Couple of points here.

1. Gormogon is troll Foo. He has been in most of this thread. You, despite our disagreements, have never turned into a troll. Don't put yourself in the same boat with him. You're better than that.

2. You've produced another straw man here. No one in this entire thread made any argument about optimizing the last few % of damage. Not one person. That was never the discussion. Don't ruin everything now by falling back into the pattern of acting like we are only talking from an elitist standpoint. Nothing in this thread gives anyone any reason to think that was what we were trying to say. Stop painting us with your elitism straw man.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Typical response.

As far as a person being bad I don't care. Only time I'm gonna call a player out is when that player starts pulling additional mobs and purposefully trying to wipe the group. This is the only time "screaming" harassment from a bad player is gonna be justified. Not omg he can't DPS and put out uber 1337 h@x0r numbers.

As far as all the complaining here goes, trivial at best.

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How is it not harassment if said player is hindering the progression of the rest of the group? I don't ever queue for the Roulette expecting a speed run, sure is great when it happens, but I do expect people to actually perform their jobs adequately. That'd be like me joining an instance with you and telling the party that I'm only going to DPS as a Paladin. What? I'm supposed to tank? Sorry, don't feel like it. Bet that'd go over real well, eh?

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

How is it not harassment if said player is hindering the progression of the rest of the group?

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Well I'm not the one that sets the rules so just go over what Square-Enix considers Harassment in FFXIV.

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Harassment
Our Definition of Harassment
The use of inappropriate and offensive language in general, or against another player is considered harassment in FINAL FANTASY XIV and is strictly prohibited. Using offensive language for character and retainer name, or spreading the inappropriate words in the character’s first and last names is also considered harassment. All claims of harassment are evaluated on a case by case basis and the action taken can be varied based upon the situation at that time. If harassment is found, the account penalty will be issued to all players who involve in the harassment.

•The use of language that is generally considered unacceptable in a public venue
•Any language that is purposely meant to harm or harass a third party
•Any language that promotes the discrimination of any race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or gender

There may be inappropriate conduct that does not fit into any of the above categories that may be considered harassment and as such would constitute an actionable offense.

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No where there do I see anything about being a bad player considered as harassment.

So how about

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Inappropriate Behavior
Our Definition of Inappropriate Behavior
Disturbances that do not fall under the harassment category but are intended to prevent or hinder game play for others are considered inappropriate. Examples of inappropriate behavior are spam, gridlocking, and scam. FINAL FANTASY XIV respect individual player’s unique play style. However, GM may take action to players whose play style prevents other player’s game play.

Spam
Spamming (or spimming) is the act of using open chat channels to excessively repeat the same phrase or action. Spamming prevents other players from chatting or otherwise reading their chat logs effectively.

Gridlocking
Gridlocking refers to a player or group of players that gather in a passage in an attempt to prevent others from entering.

Scam
In-game scams are defined as any inappropriate actions meant to defraud a fellow player with the intent to take in-game items or other possessions from them.

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So unless there's been official word about how being an unskilled player equates to Inappropriate Behavior then I don't have an answer for you.

From my point of view a new, bad, or unskilled player shouldn't be considered harassment or inappropriate. Someone purposely going out of their way to pull mobs and cause wipes should be considered inappropriate behavior.

Yet if someone has an official stance on this then that would be beneficial to both our sides when it come to understanding the situation of bad players and those that don't take advice.

These last few pages were pathetic and had almost nothing to do with what OP asked. Nothing more than personal attacks on other players here and people bringing up the most unrealistic analogies.

The most simple and effective way to avoid this is to make your own party.

Not playing up to par is subjective and the only viable defense I've seen thus far was OP's example of the BLM only casting two starter spells during the run. We can all agree that was more than likely the actions of a troll and not someone who went through -49 levels of content only to find every other spell vastly inferior to what you did for the first 10 levels.



Play the game properly and use Party Finder. You can even set the pre-requisites to be as serious and "optimized" as you like instead of crying why everyone in Duty Finder(The most uncontrollable tool in the game.) can't be like you.

There's no excuse and it doesn't take a 30 page thread to tell otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Foo01

This is so true. And they say it like it is just one or two more buttons. If were that easy, it would have already been done. Habits, routine, momemtum, knowledge (of/lack of) and whole slew of human factors is why they don't.

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Didn't you just get out of an argument about a tank who wasn't using Flash enough? That's literally zero new buttons, because he was already using it at least once. Can you really not remember the conversation from just a page or two ago?

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Originally Posted by Double

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Not playing up to par is definitely not subjective. If DPS aren't using core DPS skills, they're not playing up to par, if a healer keeps repeatedly letting the tank die and the tank is mitigating and it's only one batch of mobs, then the healer is not playing up to par. If a tank keeps dying from pulling too much, or if a healer is dying (provided they're not overhealing) because of enmity, then the tank isn't playing up to par.

You can't come to the conclusion that it was the action of a troll because I've come across MANY players just like that BLM that did not use core class skills and once I provided some advice, they actually took it and made an attempt to fix their rotation as the dungeon went on, which is very nice! Others have been very rude or just ignored me altogether. You can definitely go through 49 levels of content and not know a thing about your class if you don't read the skills, do FATEs, and only do the required story dungeons. Hell, getting to lv 50 means almost NOTHING because it is so easy to level up in this game compared to other MMOs, not to mention that classes don't feel "complete" until you get your lv 50 skills.

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Originally Posted by Double

Play the game properly and use Party Finder. You can even set the pre-requisites to be as serious and "optimized" as you like instead of crying why everyone in Duty Finder(The most uncontrollable tool in the game.) can't be like you.

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Why is DF not a "proper" way to play the game? There has been absolutely no one in this post that has forced someone to play like them. That right there is the argument made by people who think that putting in the least bit of effort is "optimizing".

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Originally Posted by Odett

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What I said had nothing to do with cross-class skills or anything you typed, so I would hope you actually read what I typed instead of quoting with improper intentions.

Duty Finder is most certainly a way to play the game; It is most certainly not the place nor proper reference to state an subjective and undefined claim of players not being up to par with themselves.

You're backing OP and OP is asking why DUTY finder; something without pre-requisites, it can't be filled with more people like him.

Optimization in this context truly falls within eye of the beholder; there is no excuse to ever complain during duty finder. No matter how incompetent you may someone to be.

Party Finder is everything you, OP, and a great handful of people here want. Why NOT use it? I use it, my friends use it. We set pre-requisites every single time and we get results. What you're doing is trying to beat unwanted advice, spout nonsensical examples of why everyone else is wrong.

Edit: Last post in this thread. May the twelve help you all.

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Originally Posted by Double

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A) I have not said a single thing about cross class skills.

B) I just explained what not being up to par is

C) When you use Duty Finder, it's not expected that someone knows a fight. It is not expected that people will skip cutscenes (which new players who wish to view them have every right to do so) . It is definitely not expected that people will do speed runs. Is it nice when you get 3 other players that can do it? You bet, but players that try to force these will make a run longer than it could have been with regular pulls. If you want assurance on any of those things, that's exactly what PF is for. It can't be too much to expect people to perform their role, in DF, can it? The problem with the "if someone doesn't ask for advice, don't give it to them" mindset is that this is a social game. If someone is making the team wipe, or playing very poorly, and a player has a way to fix it, then they should always speak up. The "unwarranted advice should not be given" mindset encourages wipes and people not saying ANYTHING constructive in order to have a better run and just silently tackling a fight they just lost without changing or saying a single thing, and that's...well...insanity.

Most of the time when I notice this it's not because the player doesn't know his/her class - it's most likely that they are just going through the motions hoping to get carried along while watching netflix or something. Doing nothing but spamming one or 2 buttons the entire fight. It's annoying, but honestly if its just the difference between a 15 minute run and a 20 minute one once a day I couldn't care less.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Not playing up to par is definitely not subjective....

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What is par is subjective. What is par to one is worse than par to another. That fact alone should be self-evident. For if the other player is not a troll or a bot, they are putting their earnest effort that is up to par.

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Originally Posted by Odett

....There has been absolutely no one in this post that has forced someone to play like them. That right there is the argument made by people who think that putting in the least bit of effort is "optimizing"....

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Yet you argue you want people to play up to "par". Sure it is NOT technically "play like them" but it is certainly that they should put in that least bit effort so it will be like "what you like them to play".

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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....You've produced another straw man here. No one in this entire thread made any argument about optimizing the last few % of damage....

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What I've written is not a straw man. BTW Gormogon is NOT a troll although not everyone agrees with him. And it is about optimizing and in the case of the DPS about that few % of damage if they could just press these 2 or 3 keys see what the OP has written:

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Originally Posted by RegnumMagik

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I don't expect them to be on a "MLG" level, but I don't think it's too much to ask to just use a different strategy. I mean really, it's just 2 or 3 more buttons.

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If all players only want to play with same or better players, and do not want to play with the lesser players, then how is anyone going to be playing together because you be hard pressed to find very name people exactly the "same" level. We all know where the elitists stands, but most of us are not elitist. Some of the players have good skill and are easily elite players, but they are not elitist, they gladly take lesser players under their wings and help them. So how about we ask, why do you put with lesser players and what is your tolerance level?

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C) When you use Duty Finder, it's not expected that someone knows a fight.

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This is true up to (but not including) Titan HM. At this point, the mechanics simply get too complicated for me to explain in one or two minutes (I do quick expl. regularly, but this is the point where even I give up).

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It is not expected that people will skip cutscenes (which new players who wish to view them have every right to do so) .

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Personally, I agree. But have you been to Castrum lately? It has become even worse now that there is an option to auto-skip already-seen cutscenes. When someone identifies him-/herself as new, I immediately apologise for what they are about to experience.

Ahh this thread is too funny, so not reading 30+ pages but what I have read should be an mmo comic book. Anyways honestly if ppl dont respond one of two things is prolly the reason. 1) on ps3 or ps4 and dont have a keyboard, which happens a lot. Or 2) prolly like me and just switches to the dmg window so they cant see party or alliance text. Df is df you take it with a grain of salt, thats why square put up party finder also. If you give advise keep offering it even if ya dont get a responce. Also this isnt a hardcore game its casual. Ur gonna get ppl who can never trully understand mechancis or rotation and so they stick to dungeons, never try hm, ex, or raids. So ur in a dungeon chill out go with it. Its for everyone.