On the Removal of Positionals

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

TN isn't this almighty savior skill either. It helps, but it's still limited. ...

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BLM has to choose between triple cast in burst phase and using it for movement, along with Swiftcast. They lose damage in one area to gain it somewhere else. It is the same with True North, optimal usage of the skill where you might lose out here, but get a bigger benefit there. So, should BLM lose access to Triplecast and Swiftcast and make everything instant cast?

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Ok, well then if it's not that much it shouldn't be that big a deal if it's gone either.

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on the contrary, if they aren't a big deal, why get rid of them? If you don't care for them, it shouldn't matter whether they stay or go, nothing is going to change, however, for the ones that do want them, they then lose out by getting rid of them.

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Originally Posted by AddictedToWitches

It's just an archaic system at this point. There are ways to make melee jobs more technical without needing positionals, hell many melee jobs are still very technical even if you ignore their positionals entirely.

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I hear this a lot, but never any suggestions, and no, making everything rear and flank isn't the solution as you effectively get rid of positionals.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

IMO Positionals just allow people that do them to feel they are better than people who don't do them even tho you could probably clear everything outside of MAYBE Ultimate's without doing them.

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Noone likes them to feel superior to anyone else, they like them because they add to the enjoyment of the job. Noone really cares if you do positionals or not and even in EX/Savage/Ultimate fights, the main thing that matters is whether you clear the DPS check or not. if not, one of the first things to look at is your rotation and whether you can move buffs around to better suit the fight, positionals are far down the list and are likely never considered.

Also, back o cast times, what is the point of having them if there are band-aids everywhere for them?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

BLM has to choose between triple cast in burst phase and using it for movement, along with Swiftcast. They lose damage in one area to gain it somewhere else. It is the same with True North, optimal usage of the skill where you might lose out here, but get a bigger benefit there. So, should BLM lose access to Triplecast and Swiftcast and make everything instant cast?

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It's been said a bunch of times already. Casting is the offset to not having to stay in melee range (hence why there is a ranged tax for the ones w/o casts). Positionals are an extra drawback on their already existing one. Swiftcast and triple cast are actually the equivalents to gap closers and ranged attacks/six-sided star. Positionals are entirely their own thing that were added for a time when bosses were just glorified striking dummies.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

on the contrary, if they aren't a big deal, why get rid of them? If you don't care for them, it shouldn't matter whether they stay or go, nothing is going to change, however, for the ones that do want them, they then lose out by getting rid of them.

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This is just going in circles. You're literally saying "on the contrary" to my "on the contrary" at this point. But at least I gave objective reasoning already; Because missing them for measures out of your control is bad gameplay design. Full stop.

If they get rid of them and you want them, nothing is stopping you from pretending they are still there and just moving between flank and rear. If they are there I can't just pretend they aren't and still hit full damage potential. Major difference.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

This is just going in circles. You're literally saying "on the contrary" to my "on the contrary" at this point. But at least I gave objective reasoning already

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Nothing you're saying about this is objective. You just don't like them for specific reasons, which are subjective.

As Mikey_R said, ignore them if you don't like them. Melees are not going to get anything if they were removed. When they actually do, perhaps the possibility would be open but until then, no.

Removing them would take an element out of the game for absolutely no gain to anyone. Ignore them all and you'll be just fine in literally all content, including Ultimates.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

It's been said a bunch of times already. Casting is the offset to not having to stay in melee range (hence why there is a ranged tax for the ones w/o casts).

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Maybe in other games, definitely not in XIV. What's the disadvantage of being in melee range? AoEs can appear anywhere and sometimes being in melee range is the safe spot (ex: donut AoE). No competent player stays in Narnia either, as you risk missing buffs heals and caster may get their spells interrupted if the boss moves too far.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Nothing you're saying about this is objective. You just don't like them for specific reasons, which are subjective.

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Losing DPS due to how mechanics work is 100% not subjective. I swear you guys are just being willfully ignorant and ignoring what I'm saying at this point. Reread the post you quoted. I'm not talking about the subjective "fun" factor.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Removing them would take an element out of the game for absolutely no gain to anyone. Ignore them all and you'll be just fine in literally all content, including Ultimates.

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Except it would be a literal dps gain for everyone since no one hits 100% of positionals. Not even the best players in the world hit 100% of their positionals 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by rewd

Maybe in other games, definitely not in XIV. What's the disadvantage of being in melee range? AoEs can appear anywhere and sometimes being in melee range is the safe spot (ex: donut AoE). No competent player stays in Narnia either, as you risk missing buffs heals and caster may get their spells interrupted if the boss moves too far.

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Many bosses now don't just have AEs you have to dodge, but actively move as well. That movement is much more impactful on melees than it is ranged. That's not even a question. I've raided on both casters and melee, and BLM specifically is the only caster that was ever more difficult to keep more uptime than a melee. Which makes it an exception to the rule (maybe PCT joins it now, idk).

Also, who said anything about being in "narnia"? You don't have to be all that far back to be out of range for the melee zoned AEs.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Losing DPS due to how mechanics work is 100% not subjective.

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Positionals can be optimized, just like slide casting and movement resources for casters.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

no one hits 100% of positionals.

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I've hit most if not all of my positionals in fights where it's harder, after I have optimized them. This is the same for many other players in the world.


Your post is literally just your subjective opinion and your different messages suggest that you don't have much experience playing melee in high end content. This doesn't matter, however, but it is perplexing when you produce statements like the one I just quoted.

As already stated, you can miss many of them and still do decent damage and clear any fight.

Optimizing positionals is like optimizing healing to reduce GCD heal to a minimum, use caster resources to avoid not casting/using low damage instants or learning how to gap close or move out/in during chariots for melee.

Additionally, tanks -and the whole party depending on the duty (e. g. P11S)- play a role, thus often making them a team-based effort, as well.

What would actually be a kinda nice feature would be a permanent true north stance that only works in overworld zones to make doing daily leveling hunts, and fates less annoying.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I've hit most if not all of my positionals in fights where it's harder, after I have optimized them. This is the same for many other players in the world.

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Most =/= all. That is my entire point. If you miss so much as one, you have a dps loss. That is the objective argument you seem to be unable to comprehend. And the point of me bringing it up is that when you objectively lose dps for something not within your control, it is bad design.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Your post is literally just your subjective opinion and your different messages suggest that you don't have much experience playing melee in high end content. This doesn't matter, however, but it is perplexing when you produce statements like the one I just quoted.

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I've been raiding for 10 years in this game. My ARR main was even MNK. I know how to hit positionals. That was never the issue. Unless you really think it's hard to hit left or right on the keyboard every 6-7~ seconds? Like, that is subjectively why I think it's a dumb mechanic, cause it's pseudo difficulty, which at this point has an unavoidable objective impact on this game.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

As already stated, you can miss many of them and still do decent damage and clear any fight.

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And since you can't read, that's never been the point. I've stated as much like 10 times.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Optimizing positionals is like optimizing healing to reduce GCD heal to a minimum, use caster resources to avoid not casting/using low damage instants or learning how to gap close or move out/in during chariots for melee.

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It's actually easier to optimize positionals. But once again that was never the point. The point is that it's bad when you miss them for means not within your control. Anyone can optimize when to move slightly within their rotation, but you cannot optimize mechanics with random movement mechanics that happen more often than your TN CD.

Your rationale is inconsistent. On the one hand, you say that positionals are easy to optimize. On the other hand, you find it upsetting that you're incurring a dps loss by missing them. If you're hitting all your positionals easily, then their presence or absence shouldn't matter to you. So there's a definite contradiction in your words.

I think the reason why you're bothered by missing positionals is because they create a skill differential. Skill differentials are essential, however, because that's how you measure skill progression and have a sense of your 'growth' as a player. It gives you something to aspire to and makes you better over time. Removing that differential doesn't make you a better player. Nor does it improve accessibility to the role.

A big problem with this game's design direction over the past few expansion is that the devs have overly catered to players' insecurities around not playing perfectly. They keep lowering the bar over time to hide skill differences between players. But that discomfort is important as a stimulus for growth and retains player engagement - if you've mastered everything perfectly then there's no incentive to keep playing. Players want to feel rewarded for their efforts, but it also has to be earned for it to be truly satisfying. It's fine to adjust the skill floor to make jobs more accessible, but don't touch the skill ceiling if you want to retain your players in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Your rationale is inconsistent. On the one hand, you say that positionals are easy to optimize. On the other hand, you find it upsetting that you're incurring a dps loss by missing them. If you're hitting all your positionals easily, then their presence or absence shouldn't matter to you. So there's a definite contradiction in your words.

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It's not inconsistent. Like, I'm sorry yall have such smooth brains you can't comprehend the difference between something being easy to do in a vacuum and something impossible to do when mechanics do not let you in practical application and TN isn't enough to cover them all. Like, I'm kinda convinced you are all trolling at this point cause I've said that numerous times.

There is no skill differential when everyone loses dps to the same exact mechanic because a boss does something that make positionals impossible and for more often/longer that TN can cover. That's not a "skill ceiling". Full stop. Most people just accept the loss because it is basically nothing in the big picture (it's like ranged attacks on melee when you are out of range, doing them is objectively more dps than not, but not doing them will never cost you a fight), but it is still objectively a punishment for no good reason and therefore bad game design. Just because it's not game breaking doesn't mean it's not true. And you can still like bad game design if you want, that's your prerogative.

SE also knows this to be true. Which is almost certainly the reason that new omni-directional ring was added. So that bosses with mechanics more egregious with this issue can be resolved. Unfortunately running through the new raids it doesn't seem like it's applied in every instance it should be yet.

There are plenty of other ways to make classes harder than a bad/outdated system like positionals that reduce dps for measures out of your control and I absolutely welcome them. Especially if it means giving all of the classes better identity and making boss encounters more unique and interesting.